I compared the same cars before I bought my GLX 4Motion wagon. First, let me state that all of them are great cars, and much has to do with subjective preferences and how the particular car matches what you want in a car. Much has been said already, so here just some of my points:
- I found the Outback (even with the H6) louder and less refined (perhaps subjective) - the Subarus have slightly more clearance, if that is important (the Passat also has 5", so it is not too shabby). A drawback of Subaru's higher clearance is more body roll (except perhaps for the Legacy GT) and in my opinion a mushier ride. The Passat feels like a sports sedan/wagon, even without the optional sport suspension. It clearly accelerates better and still feels very, very strong when fully loaded going up a mountain. - I have more elbow, shoulder and head room in the Passat
I am satisfied with the mileage, about 22-23mpg combined, 26-27 highway. While that is better than what I hear from H6 drivers, I would not expect more than 18mpg in pure city driving (which I rarely do). The car is heavy, so downhill you get more, which is quite noticeable and funny (my best so far has been 35mpg driving close to 70mph on a 50 miles trip descending 4000 feet). VWs don't require premium gas, which is a bonus to some (the computer will adjust the timing, so they only recommend it for "optimal performance").
I have driven my 4Motion on sand and gravel, in the desert and mountains, on pretty scary trail-access dirt roads, and through snow and rain without a problem. I love it. Like the Subaru, the bottom is very flat, and I have not bottomed out yet.
I also recommend the very inexpensive ESP option, and think both AWD systems are pretty much state-of-the art. (However, I don't like the AWD system of Subaru's cheaper automatic transmission models, which could be considered part-time rather than full-time.)
For me the reliability difference between the two was not a significant factor, for others it might be. VW has a great warranty, and I don't buy into that thing about lack of long-term reliability. The models and engines have been around for a while (with some of the technology available in Germany and/or in Audi models for even longer).
You get a lot for your money with Outbacks and Legacies, and I had bought one had I felt comfortable in it and driving it. I have owned two Subarus before, and may buy the Forester Turbo if they put the right package together for a good price. So, I believe I am not biased .
I call it "homework," my wife calls it an "obsession." The interior of the VW, both in size and refinement, seems to be the biggest two factors in favor of it right now. Believe me, I would like to have a "luxury" feel inside, and while it certainly doesn't look this way from the photos I've seen, I've read people describe the interior of the Subaru (even the VDC) as "cheap" looking/feeling. Sounds like you are getting very good mileage (for this class, which is way better than my Explorer), which is one of the more significant factors in my decision. Actually, if you go to the EPA website and compare the VDC and the GLX 4motion side by side, they are like a mirror image, right down to the $ you'll spend on gas every year (although I think the 4motion was calculated on premium).
The availability of this (VW) model and trim line is starting to worry me a little, however. A test drive will be essential, obviously, and I hate the way that scarce supply gives the dealer such an advantage. I also don't like the idea of ordering a car months in advance. Has anyone else found this to be the case with GLX 4motions?
BTW, has anyone read the Edmunds articles on the home page about buying on the lot vs. buying over the internet? I know you have to deal with a salesperson if you want a test drive, but as for making the actual sale, I can't see a reason why not to go through the internet department. Negotiations are a big part of my job, but I just simply can't stand all the car salesman [non-permissible content removed] you have to go through buying the old fashioned way. Plus, it seems like the internet bottom lines are typically lower anyway, without all the haggling.
The general consensus is the VW's on a whole, have nicer materials than most cars of its class. I agree, the plastics are softer and there is nice feel to the controls, buttons and materials. The Outback is fine and it's functional, but you would never confuse the feel with a Lexus or Audi. For me, it's a moot point since I'm more concerned about comfort. I find in general, VW seats are more firm and on longer trips, it can be a liability for me. A test drive is definitely the only way you can decide since both cars have their pros and cons.
In order to get a VW with the options you want, you may have to go the ordering route. It can take 3 to 4 months. I had to do so even with my WRX Subaru, but Outbacks are a bit easier to get and more discountable.
You were right, Bill, 6 inches of snow! Lovin' it! Laughing at all the FWD cars struggling to make it up steep hills which I'm able to climb without breaking a sweat.
The VDC has a lot of very nice features for snow - heated seats, heated mirrors, and windshield wiper de-icer. You can get factory rubber mats that are custom fit to keep the slush from getting your carpets dirty. The cargo rubber liner is standard. Cross bars are standard so you can mount your ski rack. Outside temp gauge to know when bridges might freeze. Weather band radio. The antennae is inbedded in the window so it won't interfere with loading the roof rack. You have almost 8" of clearance, and a very clean, flat underside with nothing to get hooked up or high-centered.
Subaru knows snow. They live for it. VW offers maybe half of that stuff, maybe. Subaru's market share in Vermont is more than 10 times higher than it is in the snow belt.
The 2003s get new shocks which are supposed to give a better ride. Someone drove a 2003 and 2002 back-to-back and noticed a big enough improvement that they were willing to pay extra for the 2003. So if you felt the 2002 was "mushy", it may be worth another look now.
Passat isn't raised, so it may feel sportier, but I don't agree that is feels like a sport sedan with the base suspension. Doesn't it have 65 series tires? Those were squeeling all over the place at the Edmunds Live event autocross course. The Maxima and even a Camry (both V6 SEs) they had felt sportier to me in back-to-back drives. They didn't have a Legacy GT for comparison, but that is much sportier. I think the Passat falls between the Outback and GT.
Subaru's H6 can run on regular gas, it just makes 4 less hp (208hp total, still 18hp more than VW). And the auto AWD on other Subies is full time, the rear axle gets 10 or 20% (depending on who you ask) of the power by default at all times.
VW's real edge is the luxury feel. Subaru ain't bad, but it's about par for the class, while VW is at the very top. It's priced accordingly, but if you can afford it and find those things appealing, I can't say I blame you.
But I'd probably spring for a sportier, though smaller, A4. Even with a 1.8T, since you can get a manual.
You are right about Subies in Vermont. I went up there for a vacation in October and they were all over the place. I actually tried to rent an Outback but they didn't have any ready at Hertz, so they gave me a Volvo S80 for the same rate. That was about the nicest car to sit in I've ever driven, better than even a BMW and Mercedes I've been in lately. Very nice car to rent, where you won't have to worry about the Volvo reliability issues.
The NC mountains have a lot of Subie drivers as well.
>>BTW, has anyone read the Edmunds articles on the home page about buying on the lot vs. buying over the internet? I know you have to deal with a salesperson if you want a test drive, but as for making the actual sale, I can't see a reason why not to go through the internet department. Negotiations are a big part of my job, but I just simply can't stand all the car salesman [non-permissible content removed] you have to go through buying the old fashioned way. Plus, it seems like the internet bottom lines are typically lower anyway, without all the haggling. <<
I combined the two. I spent a couple of hours looking at my Passat wagon with our salesguy. Did the test drive, kicked the tires, etc. Asked for his best price, which we got with an almost visible wink.
Spent some days thinking it all over, then e-mailed him with an offer, citing the dealer's costs and what I thought was a reasonable profit. He called with a counter that was close. We met again, I made a counter-counter offer. They accepted, worked up the papers, and we picked up the car the next day. Most pain-free car purchase I've had in 20 years.
I got a car I enjoy, a deal I thought was fair, and they made a sale. Everyone goes home happy.
I just ran a "true cost to own" comparison here on Edmunds between the 2003 VDC and the 2003 GLX 4MO. According to Edmunds, the 5 year total for maintenance on the VDC is $3,789 and repairs at $780, for a total of $4569. On the GLX, it's $2,024 for maintenance and $714 for repairs, totalling $2738.
This seems to go against the conventional wisdom that you'll end up paying more down the road for the VW. Can anyone comment on this? Do the real problems come for the VW in years 6 and beyond? Are Edmunds's figures wrong? I know these are just estimates, but still . . .
I liked the S80 too, more so than the S60. Drove both at the Volvo Fire & Ice event. I did like the S60 AWD, much better balance and traction.
A while back we made a correction for the TCO of the Forester. The maintenance costs just aren't that high, in fact they're about the same as any Honda or Toyota. The only thing its AWD adds is a rear differential, and so does 4Motion.
Intellichoice has similar discrepancies. What I would suggest is that you go to your dealer and get prices for the 30k and 60k service. My dealer has them at about $20-30 higher than for a plain old Dodge Neon, hardly significant.
If you end up buying one, we'll point you to one of several wholesalers for parts, the discounts can be up to 40%. Also, if you get that credit card you can probably get all your maintenance done for free.
The LL Bean comes with 2 years maintenance free, too. Lemme see...
Sure enough, Edmunds is wrong. They show maintenance costs for the first two years, but we know that should be zero since it's included. Hosts - who should we contact to correct that mistake?
This topic came up on the "subaru problems" thread over the last few days. Go look at that thread over the last 20 posts or so. I assume that it is based on the intellichoice data.
The bottom line is they overstated the Subaru maintenance costs by about $1700. They (Intellichoice)added things like replaced shocks and I assume other things in the Subaru routine maintenance list that they did not for other cars. Their response to my inquiry is that Subaru told them to do that where other manufacturer's didn't, but replacing shocks is not on any routine maintenance list I have from Subaru or my dealer.
In fact, the maintenance costs for subaru are lower than Honda and Toyota based on schedules I got yesterday from local dealers.
Maybe they asked one dealer what their prices were, and that dealer added things that weren't on Subaru's maintenance schedule.
And who pays $900 for shocks, anyway? Get Monroe Sensatronic for half that.
If you buy a Subie, hop over the Subaru Crew - General Maintenance & Repair. We share 30k and 60k service prices all the time, and better quotes fall into the $300-400 range.
When you buy LL Bean, the SOA gives you a coupon booklet that only good for oil changes (at 3750 miles, 7500 miles with every 7500 mile until 36000 miles) and tire rotation. It does not provide any tune-up service. The coupon is not transferable. I do my own oil change with Mobil 1 oil/Pure one oil filter, so the coupon is useless to me. May be I should go to dealer and trade the coupon for oil filters only. Recently I rotate my tires and the car go striaght and no longer pull to right anymore. I am very happy about that.
But Edmunds has maintenance costs even for the first year! You're not doing tune-ups until at least 30k miles, maybe 60k in some cases (like for my '98 Forester).
Much of my engineering career has been analyzing and interpreting engineering data. Rarely have I seen data with such blatant inaccuracy that was done through an honest mistake; almost invariably, there is an agenda. Who, with any sense of fairness, would add $910 shocks on one car and not on another? Give me a break.
I would hope that Patti or Someone from SOA would get this corrected, both the data and the source of the data.
Yeah, I had seen that same discrepancy in the Kiplinger's auto issue that was based on Intellichoice's figures. That seems to make a lot more sense. I also read an article in Consumer Reports that talked about the big discrepancies you can get for scheduled maintenance between different dealers and for independent shops. Maybe Intellichoice and/or Edmunds asked one of the high end dealers that added on things that weren't actually required by SOA in the scheduled maintenance.
I have heated (leather) seats and heated mirrors, standard, in the GLX, as well as an outside temp gauge with automatic frost warning. While *some* Subarus offer more clearance, I would say the Passat 4Motion is a very capable winter car.
I am glad to hear they improved the shocks and ride of some 2003 Subaru models.
65 series tires? Where did you get that from? 55 is standard on all GLX, incl. the 4Motion, some people upgrade to sportier. I don't know what you drove during the Edmunds Live event, but if the Camry felt sportier, you must have driven a very base model Passat.
The Subaru H6 and Passat V6 have max torque that is within 2% of each other. Most 0-60 times I have seen also agree that they are about the same. I think the Subaru may take some time to get there, so when you test drive a new one, it may feel a little sluggish in comparison. The ones I drove did.
I don't consider Subaru's 10% rear power (in the inexpensive auto trans versions) full-time AWD. Ask many people who drive it, they agree it understeers heavily, and it becomes very noticeable when the rear finally kicks in. I prefer the 50-50 of the manual Subarus and of the 4Motion.
I have had my Passat for 2 1/2 years, over 30,000 miles. So far I have paid for 2 oil changes (Mobil 1), a fuse I replaced, and some other scheduled things, less than $200 total maintenance costs. So yes, I think the maintenance costs are indeed low on the Passat, at least in my case.
What, no windshield wiper de-icers? Just teasing, you're more than ready for snow.
Forester has those front and rear, pretty cool. Outback has front only. Both also have the antennae built-into the window, which beats a roof rack with a whip antennae in the way for clearing snow and/or loading the roof.
Hmm, you sure about the 65 series tires? A friend just got a V6 with those, maybe is was a GLS V6. Must have been.
Edmunds had a FWD V6, it did have leather though. There were MY2000 models, could you put leather on a GLS back then?
My dad has an Outback Limited auto (90/10), and yeah, it does understeer more than my Forester (50/50), but is still very sure-footed. I do prefer the 50/50 setup, and 45/55 better still!
For the third year in a row the Passat wagon made the Editor's Choice list...Here is the shocker: I won't make any snide or untoward comments about Subaru not making the list at all. You know that's not my style ;-). Actually I don't even hate Subarus. It's just that this thread is about making the choice between a Passat or any Subaru wagon. My choice was for the Passat. I really wanted a BMW wagon but you know what the stock market was like a year ago plus I promised myself to never buy another BMW. Comparing a Subaru with a lot of other cars, I would most likely pick the Subaru, external appearance and all.
Juice and Warp have both mentioned how hard the seats are in Passats...Is it not true ,Gentlemen, that the Passats you sat in were new? In the year that I have had my Passat the seats are softer now and I find them to be very comfortable in particular on long trips. I prefer firm seats due to a weight lifting accident.
In a post a while back somebody made a comment about the Monsoon stereo in Passats. It made the Edmunds list of preferred car stereos.
I have a sensitive butt, and hard seats are the bain of my existence. I still find a three year old Passat's seat to be hard. Your mileage may vary.
Seats are a very individual thing...there's no predicting how other people will feel. My wife and I find my A4's sports seats (made by Recaro) to be one of the most painful seats of the last five cars we owned. I had to buy a seat cushion to make her happy. I like my Subaru seats far better.
Good win for the Passat wagon in Edmunds. I wouldn't argue against their choice. Wouldn't be my choice, but hey, I don't work for Edmunds.
Seating comfort is a funny thing. It's a very personal thing. I prefer a firm seat, whether it's in the house, the office or the car. I love the Passat seats..like the two VW's I've had before it going back to a 1976 Dasher, I find them to be firm, supportive and extraordinarily comfortable, especially for long trips.
My wife, on the other hand, prefers cushy seats. So the sofa in our TV room is soft. She likes it and it gives me a sore back (I watch movies from the floor). Everybody's different.
You can't decide how much you like a seat until you've spent some serious time with one. It seems fine in the showroom, but after 1000 miles, the story can change. BMW seats are too hard for me also.
The WRX was on that list, and the STi will put Subaru back on there, is my guess.
I agree about the firm seats. In reality I spent, what, 3 minutes in that Passat? So it felt hard, but you don't appreciate firm seats until you've been driving for several hours. Actually, my Forester's seats are sort of firm, too.
And my wife, like yours, also prefers cushy seats. But then she's sore at the end of the trip and doesn't know why!
can't be too soft, can't be too hard...they have to be juuuuuust riiiiight. The Subaru seats are quite comfy over long distances. Having support in the right for a particular person places helps a lot.
In a post from Juice dated December 20 the revered Professor writes: "The WRX was on that list, and the STi will put Subaru back on there, is my guess." Perhaps the WRX was as on the OTHER 2003 Edmunds' Editor's Choice list ;-) Ok,ok enough rubbing it in. The truth is that the WRX made the list for 2002 but not 2003. If you go back to post # 529 I did indeed mention 2003 not 2002. Don't feel bad though because it's not easy to make the list every year. Can't win them all...
A list geared more toward enthusiasts (2002 Car and Driver Top Ten) had the WRX and not any VW products. So there
Lists are inherently flawed anyway because it doesn't take into account your own criteria for choosing a particular car. It's only when they publish how they came to the conclusion that I give them any weight.
We always like to see our car favorite on every ones favorites list, but it is more important that we realize our personal preferences and do a good job of evaluating cars to those preferences. I have been an avid Consumer Reports advocate for 20 years, but I seldom agree with their final mainstream recommendation on anything, but they do give enough info so I can adapt their evaluations to my preferences.
The Passat is a much more mainstream car design than the Subaru and will appeal more to mainstream publications. Subaru aims for a niche market and is consistent to those principles, which is why I think there is such brand loyalty. Subaru owners seem to pride themselves on being a little off beat.
Personally, my primary issue with the Passat is projected long range reliability. The CU data for all VW cars deteriorate significantly over time. Until that trend changes, I will not buy any of their products. I went against the data in the past with a Volvo, Taurus SHO, and Sterling and got burned each time. I am a slow learner.
I grew up with VWs - 63 Bug, 73 Bug, 75 Rabbit (all my parents), and 90 Jetta (mine). I lived in the service department. I could outrun the 90 Jetta with the air conditioner on the high setting going up a hill (no joke). BUT, always liked the handling...
Switched to 92 Camry, 96 Honda and now 2001 LLBean. I too follow the trend data provided by Consumer Reports. Everything else is pure subjective. Until VW proves itself long term, I won't go back...
What is interesting is that although the Passat is a mainstream design (with European design and handling), it retains that Eurocentric ownership experience - and that isn't good. It worries me what will happen when all of the CR readers (and I'm one of them) own their Passats for 5 years and then find out that a timing belt/water pump (a trouble spot on the 1.8T) is $1000, or the steering rack is leaking ($1600), or....
Since I last posted (about 5 weeks ago), I had one fit that drove me to the Subaru dealer to "try on" everything in the showroom with my fiancee. Interestingly, we both were really comfortable in the Forester - much more comfortable than we are in the Passat. The cloth seats in the Passat are at an uncomfortable seatpan angle for us, and the bolsters are a bit snug (and neither of us are "supersize it" kind of people.)
So, we can't wait for the Forester Turbo. After 28k, her 2002 OBS has only been back to the dealer for oil changes and a rattling AC line. The dealer is considerate, oil changes are $25, and they're open Saturdays. (Compare this to the local VW/Sube dealer that wouldn't give me the time of day since I didn't buy my Passat there....)
I agree with you on a few points. Subaru does aim for a niche market in particular with their WRX model. At least in my area ALL the drivers I have seen driving the WRX are under the age of 25. I would also agree with you that they have intense brand loyalty and that they are a little off beat. No argument there ;-)
I really don't care what car makes the lists and what car doesn't. I put as much stock in "lists" as I do the opinions on this web site and this VW Passat vs Subaru Wagons thread in particular. I still find it infantile to put down other people's cars. Remember both the Passats and Subaru wagons are both well regarded. We are not the owners of Kias and Daewoos debating the relative merits or failings of our rides. Subaru owners remind me of BMW drivers. The earth is flat or the earth is the center of the universe kind of thinking. That kind of thinking is 50 percent of the reason I will never ever own another BMW. For you BMW drivers you know what I am talking about. Yes, I still have my BMW. But it will be the last one I own.
I can certainly attest that not all WRX's are driven by people under 25; I am 61 and own a WRX wagon: my niche is practical, exceptional driving fun, reliable, comfortable, 4-doors. There is not much else out there in that category.
I don't believe that reliability data is subjective; it is statistical data that defines important design characteristics of the car. Historically, the VW brand has not done nearly as well as a car brand as Subaru over many years of ownership. Whether that is important depends on the individual, but to me that data is very important to my car decisions.
I hope everyone had a great Christmas day; I am worn out chasing 9 grandkids around the house, Discussing cars is so much easier.
Perhaps you are new to this thread and you are not aware of how legalistic or exacting I can be in my words. I choose my words with care in the hope of setting a trap that I can spring later :-)LOL. I am a son of a judge and I might have inherited that trait from my dad(you Subaru guys think I am a son of something else I'm sure). Let's review what I said, shall we? "At least in my area ALL the drivers I have seen driving the WRX are under the age of 25." I didn't say that ALL drivers of said vehicle were under 25 nor did I claim to have seen all the WRX drivers in my area. I just have not seen one who appeared to be over that age. In fact few seemed to be much over 20.
Welcome to the thread Mike. Just remember that we are all just making known our opinions. Nothing more--nothing less. Our opinions are worth as much as you paid for them. I'm not a shill for a car company. There are some on Edmunds who are.
I don't care much for stats,Sir. I do care about my own personal experience. I have a 1991 GTI with 221,000 miles on it with very little in the way of repairs. None until I had 200,000 on the odometer. My other VW's have been very easy on the pocket book as well which is why I am on my fourth VW. Never would have had a second, third, or fourth if I had problems with the first. No car company makes a perfect car. Just look at the drivers of all makes ranting and raving about problems in the repair threads on Edmunds. Not only are there people complaining about VW and Subaru but even Lexus and MBZ!!! My God!! Is nothing sacred anymore?? Where is the decency? Where is the humanity??? LOL!
Mike,just sit back and enjoy what we post here and see it as a form of entertainment. I would hope that nobody would consider a car purchase based on what anybody says here. We are just a bunch of car enthusiasts spouting off...
C'mon, don't take me so seriously; I enjoy arguing about cars, football, golf, whatever. you are fun because you argue back and are easily aroused. I've got to work on my wife on that one.
You don't care much for stats? After 30 plus years in engineering, data is really all you can depend on. Individual experiences are just that, and discussion on features are largely personal preferences. One can go to Vegas and win once, or maybe twice, but don't try it 100 times and expect to win. The old Bell curve wins all the time.
When it comes to cars, I will gamble on reliability if I really love the car, but if two cars are close, reliability wins.
Your posts ## 543 and 546 gave me a chuckle this morning. I've had my '00 Forester for 3 years and 48K miles and while not perfect (rear wheel bearing problems) it's been well above average in my experience. Had an A2-bodied VW ('86 Jetta Carat) until it was totaled in '96 with 147K on the odo. It was a Wolfsburg-built car but had some initial build quality problems, many of which never were properly addressed, and the car really dime-and-quartered me starting at 60K. My dealer experience was horrible and memories of that resurfaced when I was seriously considering an A4 Avant rather than the Forester. All that said the VW was pretty fun to drive and well equipped. I hope the Subaru will last that long if I treat it properly; so far others' experiences lead me to believe me that it should.
What gave me a laugh is your description of the Subaru and BMW faithful. SoA has treated me well and I will probably be another repeat buyer. Subaru owners come from a wider demographic swath than I'd expected, but I know that there's a lot of cultish behavior among the ranks. (I may not be one to judge there because my other car is a Studebaker and their owners are a cult unto themselves. ;-) ) I've seen a lot of WRX owners in the 35-and-over age bracket and if I ever buy one I will fall in that category as well.
Never having owned a BMW I can't speak for their cultish behavior though I suspect some of it may come from a shared knowledge that they can afford to buy them plus some sort of innate sense of personal entitlement to the road.
I went off to college in 1959 with a 1952 V8 Studebaker Commander; you could never tell whether it was coming or going - I never could get a date in that thing.
Two years later, I traded it for a 1956 Studebaker Silver Hawk. I still couldn't get a date, but I loved that car - it still looks good.
I wonder whether Studebaker owners become Subaru owners as they get older.
Mike: ah yes, the old "coming or going" joke about the '47-52 models. An uncle of mine had a '52 Commander and I sort of like their one-year only "clam digger" front end styling. The Stude 232/259/289 V8 is very durable albeit heavy for a small block, and cranks out impressive power when supercharged as in the '63-64 Avantis, Super Larks and Super Hawks.
There are only two Stude/Sube owners that I know of: myself and originalbitman who is out here from time to time. Bit has a half-ton pickup circa 1950 and a Legacy GT wagon. I have a '63 Lark (hence the name) and the Forester. I have half convinced another Stude owner to consider a Legacy wagon, but many if not most of the other Stude owners I know have less lower-case-c catholic tastes and are very averse to owning imports.
My graduation present to myself was a new 1964 Ford Galaxie 500XL, 2 door burgandy hardtop with 390ci engine. That, plus making money, made dating a lot easier. I'll have to admit I still had to work at it pretty hard; I was still as ugly as before.
Subaru Demographics: Daves, Mikes, and names with a "K", dog/cat owners, Macintosh users, professors, and yeah we like granola but grilled Turbot and Rally Bread are even better.
WRX is the least traditional in terms of demographics, it brought lots of new folks into the Subaru fold, young and old. Demographics are more mainstream than the usual tight niches of the other models.
And did you hear about the STi? 300hp and 300lb-ft ought to put it on any list worth reading.
My name does not start with D, M or K, and I am not a Mac user. I need all the computing power ( PC and work station) to design integrated circuit. I don't have a dog because my wife is allergic to dog. One time my neighbor's dog bit me big time on my back when I was 10. Well, that was my fault because I teased the dog.
I do sweep rowing three times a week at 5:00 A.M. My next competition is San Diego Crew Classic in April. Hope We don't do DFL.
I've been debating between a Passat and a Forester. Now that I've settled on the Forester (to be delivered this week, I hope!), I find that juice already predicted my choice. Since I'm a mac user, professor, yellow lab companion, and occasional granola eater, how could I have gone with the Passat??
Only "k" is at the end of my middle name, though, and I'm not a Mike or Dave (though my twin brother is!).
Buying a Passat is alright. Most of the Forester descriptions apply to me as well. What happens is if you buy a Passat like I did, destiny will eventually take over. You just can’t stop thinking about the Forester until you eventually buy one. In my case waiting will likely work out just fine, since I have always wanted the turbo.
- D
[D and K in name, two neighbors’ cats always in and around house (we are allergic and try to limit exposure, usually unsuccessfully), granola in the morning except for the rally bread on weekends served with turbot on the speed channel, Mac in the house (but admittedly also XP, Win2000, NT, and Linux), adjunct and lecturer so I guess that qualifies me for the “p” profession].
Comments
Sounds like you did your homework.
I compared the same cars before I bought my GLX 4Motion wagon. First, let me state that all of them are great cars, and much has to do with subjective preferences and how the particular car matches what you want in a car. Much has been said already, so here just some of my points:
- I found the Outback (even with the H6) louder and less refined (perhaps subjective)
- the Subarus have slightly more clearance, if that is important (the Passat also has 5", so it is not too shabby). A drawback of Subaru's higher clearance is more body roll (except perhaps for the Legacy GT) and in my opinion a mushier ride. The Passat feels like a sports sedan/wagon, even without the optional sport suspension. It clearly accelerates better and still feels very, very strong when fully loaded going up a mountain.
- I have more elbow, shoulder and head room in the Passat
I am satisfied with the mileage, about 22-23mpg combined, 26-27 highway. While that is better than what I hear from H6 drivers, I would not expect more than 18mpg in pure city driving (which I rarely do). The car is heavy, so downhill you get more, which is quite noticeable and funny (my best so far has been 35mpg driving close to 70mph on a 50 miles trip descending 4000 feet). VWs don't require premium gas, which is a bonus to some (the computer will adjust the timing, so they only recommend it for "optimal performance").
I have driven my 4Motion on sand and gravel, in the desert and mountains, on pretty scary trail-access dirt roads, and through snow and rain without a problem. I love it. Like the Subaru, the bottom is very flat, and I have not bottomed out yet.
I also recommend the very inexpensive ESP option, and think both AWD systems are pretty much state-of-the art. (However, I don't like the AWD system of Subaru's cheaper automatic transmission models, which could be considered part-time rather than full-time.)
For me the reliability difference between the two was not a significant factor, for others it might be. VW has a great warranty, and I don't buy into that thing about lack of long-term reliability. The models and engines have been around for a while (with some of the technology available in Germany and/or in Audi models for even longer).
You get a lot for your money with Outbacks and Legacies, and I had bought one had I felt comfortable in it and driving it. I have owned two Subarus before, and may buy the Forester Turbo if they put the right package together for a good price. So, I believe I am not biased .
- D
I call it "homework," my wife calls it an "obsession." The interior of the VW, both in size and refinement, seems to be the biggest two factors in favor of it right now. Believe me, I would like to have a "luxury" feel inside, and while it certainly doesn't look this way from the photos I've seen, I've read people describe the interior of the Subaru (even the VDC) as "cheap" looking/feeling. Sounds like you are getting very good mileage (for this class, which is way better than my Explorer), which is one of the more significant factors in my decision. Actually, if you go to the EPA website and compare the VDC and the GLX 4motion side by side, they are like a mirror image, right down to the $ you'll spend on gas every year (although I think the 4motion was calculated on premium).
The availability of this (VW) model and trim line is starting to worry me a little, however. A test drive will be essential, obviously, and I hate the way that scarce supply gives the dealer such an advantage. I also don't like the idea of ordering a car months in advance. Has anyone else found this to be the case with GLX 4motions?
BTW, has anyone read the Edmunds articles on the home page about buying on the lot vs. buying over the internet? I know you have to deal with a salesperson if you want a test drive, but as for making the actual sale, I can't see a reason why not to go through the internet department. Negotiations are a big part of my job, but I just simply can't stand all the car salesman [non-permissible content removed] you have to go through buying the old fashioned way. Plus, it seems like the internet bottom lines are typically lower anyway, without all the haggling.
In order to get a VW with the options you want, you may have to go the ordering route. It can take 3 to 4 months. I had to do so even with my WRX Subaru, but Outbacks are a bit easier to get and more discountable.
The VDC has a lot of very nice features for snow - heated seats, heated mirrors, and windshield wiper de-icer. You can get factory rubber mats that are custom fit to keep the slush from getting your carpets dirty. The cargo rubber liner is standard. Cross bars are standard so you can mount your ski rack. Outside temp gauge to know when bridges might freeze. Weather band radio. The antennae is inbedded in the window so it won't interfere with loading the roof rack. You have almost 8" of clearance, and a very clean, flat underside with nothing to get hooked up or high-centered.
Subaru knows snow. They live for it. VW offers maybe half of that stuff, maybe. Subaru's market share in Vermont is more than 10 times higher than it is in the snow belt.
The 2003s get new shocks which are supposed to give a better ride. Someone drove a 2003 and 2002 back-to-back and noticed a big enough improvement that they were willing to pay extra for the 2003. So if you felt the 2002 was "mushy", it may be worth another look now.
Passat isn't raised, so it may feel sportier, but I don't agree that is feels like a sport sedan with the base suspension. Doesn't it have 65 series tires? Those were squeeling all over the place at the Edmunds Live event autocross course. The Maxima and even a Camry (both V6 SEs) they had felt sportier to me in back-to-back drives. They didn't have a Legacy GT for comparison, but that is much sportier. I think the Passat falls between the Outback and GT.
Subaru's H6 can run on regular gas, it just makes 4 less hp (208hp total, still 18hp more than VW). And the auto AWD on other Subies is full time, the rear axle gets 10 or 20% (depending on who you ask) of the power by default at all times.
VW's real edge is the luxury feel. Subaru ain't bad, but it's about par for the class, while VW is at the very top. It's priced accordingly, but if you can afford it and find those things appealing, I can't say I blame you.
But I'd probably spring for a sportier, though smaller, A4. Even with a 1.8T, since you can get a manual.
-juice
The NC mountains have a lot of Subie drivers as well.
>>BTW, has anyone read the Edmunds articles on the home page about buying on the lot vs. buying over the internet? I know you have to deal with a salesperson if you want a test drive, but as for making the actual sale, I can't see a reason why not to go through the internet department. Negotiations are a big part of my job, but I just simply can't stand all the car salesman [non-permissible content removed] you have to go through buying the old fashioned way. Plus, it seems like the internet bottom lines are typically lower anyway, without all the haggling. <<
I combined the two. I spent a couple of hours looking at my Passat wagon with our salesguy. Did the test drive, kicked the tires, etc. Asked for his best price, which we got with an almost visible wink.
Spent some days thinking it all over, then e-mailed him with an offer, citing the dealer's costs and what I thought was a reasonable profit. He called with a counter that was close. We met again, I made a counter-counter offer. They accepted, worked up the papers, and we picked up the car the next day. Most pain-free car purchase I've had in 20 years.
I got a car I enjoy, a deal I thought was fair, and they made a sale. Everyone goes home happy.
YMMV, but just something to consider.
This seems to go against the conventional wisdom that you'll end up paying more down the road for the VW. Can anyone comment on this? Do the real problems come for the VW in years 6 and beyond? Are Edmunds's figures wrong? I know these are just estimates, but still . . .
A while back we made a correction for the TCO of the Forester. The maintenance costs just aren't that high, in fact they're about the same as any Honda or Toyota. The only thing its AWD adds is a rear differential, and so does 4Motion.
Intellichoice has similar discrepancies. What I would suggest is that you go to your dealer and get prices for the 30k and 60k service. My dealer has them at about $20-30 higher than for a plain old Dodge Neon, hardly significant.
If you end up buying one, we'll point you to one of several wholesalers for parts, the discounts can be up to 40%. Also, if you get that credit card you can probably get all your maintenance done for free.
The LL Bean comes with 2 years maintenance free, too. Lemme see...
Sure enough, Edmunds is wrong. They show maintenance costs for the first two years, but we know that should be zero since it's included. Hosts - who should we contact to correct that mistake?
So do your own research, I'd suggest.
-juice
The bottom line is they overstated the Subaru maintenance costs by about $1700. They (Intellichoice)added things like replaced shocks and I assume other things in the Subaru routine maintenance list that they did not for other cars. Their response to my inquiry is that Subaru told them to do that where other manufacturer's didn't, but replacing shocks is not on any routine maintenance list I have from Subaru or my dealer.
In fact, the maintenance costs for subaru are lower than Honda and Toyota based on schedules I got yesterday from local dealers.
Mike
And who pays $900 for shocks, anyway? Get Monroe Sensatronic for half that.
If you buy a Subie, hop over the Subaru Crew - General Maintenance & Repair. We share 30k and 60k service prices all the time, and better quotes fall into the $300-400 range.
-juice
Alland
-juice
I would hope that Patti or Someone from SOA would get this corrected, both the data and the source of the data.
Mike
Ralph
I have heated (leather) seats and heated mirrors, standard, in the GLX, as well as an outside temp gauge with automatic frost warning. While *some* Subarus offer more clearance, I would say the Passat 4Motion is a very capable winter car.
I am glad to hear they improved the shocks and ride of some 2003 Subaru models.
65 series tires? Where did you get that from? 55 is standard on all GLX, incl. the 4Motion, some people upgrade to sportier. I don't know what you drove during the Edmunds Live event, but if the Camry felt sportier, you must have driven a very base model Passat.
The Subaru H6 and Passat V6 have max torque that is within 2% of each other. Most 0-60 times I have seen also agree that they are about the same. I think the Subaru may take some time to get there, so when you test drive a new one, it may feel a little sluggish in comparison. The ones I drove did.
I don't consider Subaru's 10% rear power (in the inexpensive auto trans versions) full-time AWD. Ask many people who drive it, they agree it understeers heavily, and it becomes very noticeable when the rear finally kicks in. I prefer the 50-50 of the manual Subarus and of the 4Motion.
I have had my Passat for 2 1/2 years, over 30,000 miles. So far I have paid for 2 oil changes (Mobil 1), a fuse I replaced, and some other scheduled things, less than $200 total maintenance costs. So yes, I think the maintenance costs are indeed low on the Passat, at least in my case.
- D
In the WRX, the automatic's torque is split 45/55 with a rear bias. These cars can oversteer pretty easily! yeehaa!
Forester has those front and rear, pretty cool. Outback has front only. Both also have the antennae built-into the window, which beats a roof rack with a whip antennae in the way for clearing snow and/or loading the roof.
Hmm, you sure about the 65 series tires? A friend just got a V6 with those, maybe is was a GLS V6. Must have been.
Edmunds had a FWD V6, it did have leather though. There were MY2000 models, could you put leather on a GLS back then?
My dad has an Outback Limited auto (90/10), and yeah, it does understeer more than my Forester (50/50), but is still very sure-footed. I do prefer the 50/50 setup, and 45/55 better still!
-juice
Gary
In a post a while back somebody made a comment about the Monsoon stereo in Passats. It made the Edmunds list of preferred car stereos.
Gary
Seats are a very individual thing...there's no predicting how other people will feel. My wife and I find my A4's sports seats (made by Recaro) to be one of the most painful seats of the last five cars we owned. I had to buy a seat cushion to make her happy. I like my Subaru seats far better.
Good win for the Passat wagon in Edmunds. I wouldn't argue against their choice. Wouldn't be my choice, but hey, I don't work for Edmunds.
My wife, on the other hand, prefers cushy seats. So the sofa in our TV room is soft. She likes it and it gives me a sore back (I watch movies from the floor). Everybody's different.
I agree about the firm seats. In reality I spent, what, 3 minutes in that Passat? So it felt hard, but you don't appreciate firm seats until you've been driving for several hours. Actually, my Forester's seats are sort of firm, too.
And my wife, like yours, also prefers cushy seats. But then she's sore at the end of the trip and doesn't know why!
-juice
Gary
Lists are inherently flawed anyway because it doesn't take into account your own criteria for choosing a particular car. It's only when they publish how they came to the conclusion that I give them any weight.
The Passat is a much more mainstream car design than the Subaru and will appeal more to mainstream publications. Subaru aims for a niche market and is consistent to those principles, which is why I think there is such brand loyalty. Subaru owners seem to pride themselves on being a little off beat.
Personally, my primary issue with the Passat is projected long range reliability. The CU data for all VW cars deteriorate significantly over time. Until that trend changes, I will not buy any of their products. I went against the data in the past with a Volvo, Taurus SHO, and Sterling and got burned each time. I am a slow learner.
Mike
Switched to 92 Camry, 96 Honda and now 2001 LLBean. I too follow the trend data provided by Consumer Reports. Everything else is pure subjective. Until VW proves itself long term, I won't go back...
Since I last posted (about 5 weeks ago), I had one fit that drove me to the Subaru dealer to "try on" everything in the showroom with my fiancee. Interestingly, we both were really comfortable in the Forester - much more comfortable than we are in the Passat. The cloth seats in the Passat are at an uncomfortable seatpan angle for us, and the bolsters are a bit snug (and neither of us are "supersize it" kind of people.)
So, we can't wait for the Forester Turbo. After 28k, her 2002 OBS has only been back to the dealer for oil changes and a rattling AC line. The dealer is considerate, oil changes are $25, and they're open Saturdays. (Compare this to the local VW/Sube dealer that wouldn't give me the time of day since I didn't buy my Passat there....)
Tom
I really don't care what car makes the lists and what car doesn't. I put as much stock in "lists" as I do the opinions on this web site and this VW Passat vs Subaru Wagons thread in particular. I still find it infantile to put down other people's cars. Remember both the Passats and Subaru wagons are both well regarded. We are not the owners of Kias and Daewoos debating the relative merits or failings of our rides. Subaru owners remind me of BMW drivers. The earth is flat or the earth is the center of the universe kind of thinking. That kind of thinking is 50 percent of the reason I will never ever own another BMW. For you BMW drivers you know what I am talking about. Yes, I still have my BMW. But it will be the last one I own.
Gary
I don't believe that reliability data is subjective; it is statistical data that defines important design characteristics of the car. Historically, the VW brand has not done nearly as well as a car brand as Subaru over many years of ownership. Whether that is important depends on the individual, but to me that data is very important to my car decisions.
I hope everyone had a great Christmas day; I am worn out chasing 9 grandkids around the house, Discussing cars is so much easier.
Mike
Welcome to the thread Mike. Just remember that we are all just making known our opinions. Nothing more--nothing less. Our opinions are worth as much as you paid for them. I'm not a shill for a car company. There are some on Edmunds who are.
I don't care much for stats,Sir. I do care about my own personal experience. I have a 1991 GTI with 221,000 miles on it with very little in the way of repairs. None until I had 200,000 on the odometer. My other VW's have been very easy on the pocket book as well which is why I am on my fourth VW. Never would have had a second, third, or fourth if I had problems with the first. No car company makes a perfect car. Just look at the drivers of all makes ranting and raving about problems in the repair threads on Edmunds. Not only are there people complaining about VW and Subaru but even Lexus and MBZ!!! My God!! Is nothing sacred anymore?? Where is the decency? Where is the humanity??? LOL!
Mike,just sit back and enjoy what we post here and see it as a form of entertainment. I would hope that nobody would consider a car purchase based on what anybody says here. We are just a bunch of car enthusiasts spouting off...
Gary
You don't care much for stats? After 30 plus years in engineering, data is really all you can depend on. Individual experiences are just that, and discussion on features are largely personal preferences. One can go to Vegas and win once, or maybe twice, but don't try it 100 times and expect to win. The old Bell curve wins all the time.
When it comes to cars, I will gamble on reliability if I really love the car, but if two cars are close, reliability wins.
Just my viewpoint
Mike
What gave me a laugh is your description of the Subaru and BMW faithful. SoA has treated me well and I will probably be another repeat buyer. Subaru owners come from a wider demographic swath than I'd expected, but I know that there's a lot of cultish behavior among the ranks. (I may not be one to judge there because my other car is a Studebaker and their owners are a cult unto themselves. ;-) ) I've seen a lot of WRX owners in the 35-and-over age bracket and if I ever buy one I will fall in that category as well.
Never having owned a BMW I can't speak for their cultish behavior though I suspect some of it may come from a shared knowledge that they can afford to buy them plus some sort of innate sense of personal entitlement to the road.
Ed
Two years later, I traded it for a 1956 Studebaker Silver Hawk. I still couldn't get a date, but I loved that car - it still looks good.
I wonder whether Studebaker owners become Subaru owners as they get older.
Mike
There are only two Stude/Sube owners that I know of: myself and originalbitman who is out here from time to time. Bit has a half-ton pickup circa 1950 and a Legacy GT wagon. I have a '63 Lark (hence the name) and the Forester. I have half convinced another Stude owner to consider a Legacy wagon, but many if not most of the other Stude owners I know have less lower-case-c catholic tastes and are very averse to owning imports.
Ed
Bob
Mike
WRX is the least traditional in terms of demographics, it brought lots of new folks into the Subaru fold, young and old. Demographics are more mainstream than the usual tight niches of the other models.
And did you hear about the STi? 300hp and 300lb-ft ought to put it on any list worth reading.
-juice
I do sweep rowing three times a week at 5:00 A.M. My next competition is San Diego Crew Classic in April. Hope We don't do DFL.
Alland (2002 LL Bean)
Only "k" is at the end of my middle name, though, and I'm not a Mike or Dave (though my twin brother is!).
It's just the vast majority of owners do own pets. Those dog guards are shown in the accessory catalog for a reason.
Congrats, thorsett, and you'll fit right in. The Subaru Crew has a chat every Thursday night; join us.
-juice
Buying a Passat is alright. Most of the Forester descriptions apply to me as well. What happens is if you buy a Passat like I did, destiny will eventually take over. You just can’t stop thinking about the Forester until you eventually buy one. In my case waiting will likely work out just fine, since I have always wanted the turbo.
- D
[D and K in name, two neighbors’ cats always in and around house (we are allergic and try to limit exposure, usually unsuccessfully), granola in the morning except for the rally bread on weekends served with turbot on the speed channel, Mac in the house (but admittedly also XP, Win2000, NT, and Linux), adjunct and lecturer so I guess that qualifies me for the “p” profession].
-juice
- D