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Reading your original post, you called it a ping/rattle and specifically mention 2500 RPM. While subsequent replies (a whole bunch) have discussed the ping, nobody has mentioned rattles.
Our VDC has been experiencing a 'rattle' at around 2500 RPM (a range of 2300 - 3100 RPM actually) after the engine was warmed up and at varying loads (but worst when dropping from 3000+ down to 2000's). In the driveway, I was able to finally pinpoint the rattle down to the accessory belt/timing chain area at the front of the engine.
The car is at the dealer as we speak (getting it's first oil change too) and they tell me that the problem is with the bearing in the tensioner for the belt (they said timing chain - do they even have tensioners?) and have ordered a replacement.
Would probably make your life a lot easier if it was a tensioner...
Craig from Seattle
Thanks
Sharon
We are backing up our words to you by offering to help. We are sending you a letter acknowledging your complaint. However, we cannot operate a business of replacing cars that do not have issues related to use, value or safety. It would not help anyone if we just started doing that because the consumers would pay in the end.
We are committed and I know you are not happy about this noise. My suggestion - hang in there for a bit. The offer made to you will stay out there. When the fuels change - maybe you will see a difference and prove out this possible "theory" or maybe we'll have more information.
My understanding is that your vehicle is not showing any operating issues based on the computer data streams that were done. I know you had concerns with noises from your brakes and from the roof rack, but I understood that they did address these issues for you.
Once again, I am not saying you are being over-sensitive. What I was saying is that what one person might consider a "light ping under moderate load", another might consider a lot of noise.
You have our commitment to keep working with you.
Patti
My 2001 OB Wagon actually has two thermometers - the in-dash thermometer, and one displayed in the autodim mirror along with the compass heading.
There are two buttons on the autodim mirror - one that says "Comp" and the other "Temp". Just pushing these briefly turns off/on the display. However, I was able to change the display from F to C by holding in the "Temp" button for about 5 secs. The display first goes blank, and then a C (or F) appears allow you to pick your measurment unit. You can then push the button repeatedly to toggle back and forth. This isn't described in the users manual, but it is similar to the method for calibrating the compass which is described in the manual.
I haven't figured out yet how to change the in-dash reading (if it's possible at all).
Cheers,
Paul
-Mike
Impreza Outback Sport: 6.3"
Legacy Outback H-4: 7.3"
Legacy Outback H-6: 7.9"
Bob
BTW, the ground clearance is listed in the Outback brochure, but not the Legacy brochure for some reason.
Bob
Thanks!
Patti
The H6s carry the highest rated ground clearance of any Subie: 7.9". The GT sedan has 6.1", so you are almost 2 inches taller.
My Forester has never scraped any driveway, no matter how steep, and it has 7.5". You should be fine.
The icing on the cake is that the sedan costs about $2 grand less than the LL Bean wagon, so it's the cheapest way to get the H6 engine.
-juice
For example, a '98 Outback will run about $15 grand. The 2002s will cost you about $21k new, and we're talking 4 model years of depreciation plus a lot of added content on the new ones. Not to mention all the miles and what's left of the warranty.
You may actually want to consider a new Forester L or Outback Sport, too. The Forester can be had for under $20 grand, and the Outback Sport has the 2.5l Phase II engine and 16" alloys for only a little more than that used Outback would cost.
Unless you find a used-car bargain, IMO the new ones are a better value.
-juice
If you're near DC, e-mail me (ateixeira@ifc.org) and I'll refer you to a place we've used a couple of times.
-juice
I realize that most Subarus are AWD models. Living in SoCal, I'm basically looking for a no frills, FWD L model station wagon in stick or automatic. AWD will just add cost and increase reliability concerns.
If you would like me to share my experiences with SoA in dealing with the pinging/knocking problem specific to my 2000 OB then please email me. The info is too involved to post on the forum.
Vince (vsr@bellatlantic.net)
Having fix my problem by using the "adjustable cap type" filter wrence "Lisle #63600 Wide Range ".
It works out so good and not expensive as well.
Just to inform any novice who may have the same problem like me.
Woody.
There are other rumors that the H-6 may finally filter down to more mainstream Outbacks as well. Also, there are rumors that indicate that the H-6 may NOT make it into the Legacy lineup.
Subaru has recently given the Japanese-spec models a slight facelift. It's also expected that those changes will make it here for the "03 model year. You can visit the SOJ web site at:
http://www.subaru.co.jp/
Bob
Bob
Thanks for the information. It helps. I found more on the Japanese site so your information was most helpful. Looks like slight changes to more of a european look starting to blend to the Passat or other wagons.Getting away from what Edmunds and others call questional exterior styling or "frumpy". I don't mind that look it is distinctive and different from the euro trend. I guess there is no way to tell what will make it in 03 but it stands to reason that they will not do the tooling too different. Different is money. At least I know that I can live with either. Makes you wonder what is in store for the 05 or 06 when there is a major change planned. Thanks again for the help.
Chuck
I'm just updating you on the status of my 01 Outback. I went to the dealer this morning to see what I could get for a trade-in and to try to negotiate a deal. Well at first they were only going to offer me $17,000 (it's 6 months old 9500 miles)but when they found out that SoA had offered $1500 towards the purchase of a new Subaru, they said they would not accept my car as a trade in because there must me something bad wrong with it that Subaru couldn't fix. The sales manager said that he would call SoA (Susan Hoff the person I dealt with that assured me that the engine ping was non-destructive and not detrimental to the value and performance of the car in any way)and see if SoA would buy back the car. So I guess the dealer that says nothing is wrong with the car doesn't want to buy the car back because something really is wrong with it??? When I spoke with Susan last week she only said that they would give me $1500 toward a new one and an extended warranty and she didn't mention anything about SoA buying it back. It looks like the lemon law is going to be my only option. I would get substantially more money back going the legal route than trying to trade it in (if all they would give me is 17 grand -- kellybluebook has it's trade-in value between $20 and $22 grand)- not that that is what I would get, by the even paying the lawyer I come out better than dealing directly with the subaru folks.
So Patti, I have exhausted my options going the non-legal route. It's too bad really because I wanted to stay in an Outback. Subaru has offered no compromise that can realistically be honored.
I'll give it until Monday when the sales manager gets back to me with what SoA says about the value of my car.
By the way the sales manager refused to put in writing his refusal to accept my car as a trade-in. Depending of what if anything Subaru offers for the car, will depend on how honest they were in defining the car's problem to begin with.
I plan on speaking out a lot on my experience. There still is a small window to make it a positive one, but it's closing pretty fast.
I also understand the frustration you must feel without finding a resolution to your problem that can meet your expectations. The anxiety I hear in your posts makes me think you might only find satisfaction by pursuing the lemon law route. You should do it and just get it over with and if you feel so compelled post the result here.
If you could ever plow through the volume of archived post in this forum you would see that what has happened to you is by far and away an exception to the norm. Some of us have had issues with our cars or our dealers but most have found that in the end we have gotten results that far and away exceed our expectations. You might also find that the forums for other vehicles are littered with unsatisfied customers frustrated by manufacturing or performance issues. I can speak from personal experience that SOA is an exception. I can also say the same for my dealer. Both came to my rescue when I needed them and I now feel as compelled to sing their praise as you do to discredit them.
Again, I am sorry about your situation. I feel bad because I consider myself part of the Subaru family and if you are not happy with SOA, Patti or Susan Hoff it means you can not participate here on this board as enthusiastically as the rest of us. It's contagious when it is good and you would have probably enjoyed it if things had turned out differently.
bit
I really had the hope that I would have the same great experience that the rest of you have.
Who knows maybe they'll come through with a descent offer to buy my car on Monday, but I doubt it because to them that would be an admission that something really is wrong with my car. But the fact that know one is willing to take it as a trade in (the dealer or SoA)would speak volumes in a legal preceeding.
Thanks again,
Sharon
I wish you the best in your endeavor...
but just in case, do leave a light on
Subaru just tried a major fix on my 2000 OB to correct the pinging problem but unfortunately the fix has not worked. I will once again be discussing with Susan what the next cycle of corrective action will be.
I believe the problem lies somewhere within the emission control system that was designed by Fuji engineers in Japan (as opposed to SoA's technical staff).
When the dealer technicians cleared the memory of the on board computer the pinging and knocking problem completely disappeared for 7 or 8 days. The reason it temporarily disappeared is because the emission control system is designed with fuzzy logic. After clearing the memory the fuzzy logic was relearning my driving habits. After there was enough data stored on my driving habits the pinging returned as the ecm was once again anticipating how to control various engine emission control settings, including engine timing which is a primary control for regulating pinging.
There is a subset of Subaru automobiles that have this problem but unfortunately SoA does not know why or how to correct it. The technical team at SoA did however expect that the pinging would return in my car after the memory was cleared because they believed it would relearn how to ping.
When logically evaluating this information and knowing the circumstances when pinging and knocking are occurring in my car my humble assumption is one or more of the following exists:
- the software cannot properly account for driving patterns or habits of certain people
- there is(are) a series of sensing devices that do not work correctly under certain conditions
- the software does not properly respond to signals being received from these sensing devices
- the softare does not properly control emission control devices in response to data being received from one or more sensing devices.
I believe the root cause of this problem will not be properly identified until SoA technical people do some detailed technical analysis work with Fuji engineers.
Whatever the underlying cause is eventually determined to be do not let SoA or the dealer's service staff try to convince you that pinging is normal and that it won't damage your engine.
If it was normal all Subaru's would ping but they don't. If it was normal my Subaru would ping and knock when pinging could be anticipated to occur (long pulls/acceleration). It definitely should not ping and knock when holding a constant speed on level ground.
Pinging and knocking CAN damage your engine. Specifically it can damage valve seats because ignition can be occurring before valves are completely closed and properly seated. It can also lead to carbon buildup due to incomplete combustion and improper cylinder exhaust cycles. Prolonged and severe pinging and knocking can also crack or break pistons. SoA can tell us they stand behind our cars but I truly wonder exactly where they will be standing when the damage shows up after the warranty has expired.
I have similar feelings about my Outback as you do. It's a fantastic car with great handling and performance and superb styling but I am now rapidly running out of patience with this situation. The one bright note has been the willingness of SoA to remain involved with the problem.
If you want additional info on the specifics of my car please email me.
A few qualifications:
- I am neither an automotive or mechanical engineer but I am a car enthusiast and have researched this problem rather extensively.
- I've used the term "pinging" to mean a low level or slight rattling engine sound.
- I've used the term "knocking" to mean a much louder and intense engine sound equated to shaking a can full of rocks or an intense "dieseling racket".
Vince (vsr@bellatlantic.net)
I'm concerned about the same thing, SoA keeps assuring me that if there is any engine damage that my warranty will cover it, but somehow I doubt that when my car is 1 mile over the warranty mileage they would replace my engine if it blew.
I agree with you about the ping. There is no such thing as a non-destructive ping, period. The more I talk to people the more I realize that.
I'll keep posting the status of my case (or lawsuit if it goes that far -- I really hope it doesn't, but I don't want this car now).
I wonder how hard SoA really is working to find a fix to the problem. I suppose if they could give me some guarantee that they would fix it or help me into another one (where I can actually get rid of the one I have)I would be more positive in my tone. They just aren't willing to work with me on either end (I was told that my car was normal and that the ping was normal, and yet they won't take my car as a trade-in because obivously something bad must be wrong with it because of SoA's involvement).
It's so frustrating. I just hope I can get my legal fees back if it goes to court, but after a certain point it becomes something way more than being about money.
I'm thinking about calling local TV stations and newspapers.
Not sure which state you live in but under PA's lemon law the legal fees, if you win your case, are paid by the manufacturer. The attorneys that I spoke with accept those fees as payment in full and if the case is lost they charge no fee. Each state probably has different guidelines on mileage limits when the lemon law no longer applies even if the car is still under warranty. What is probably consistent is that you need documented proof that you had the car into the dealer and that the dealer could not make the repairs. Most states probably require 3 attempts and probably within the first 12000 miles. Another item of importance is how does your state's lemon law view the specific problem. For example, does the problem affect the safety, integrity, reliability or driveability of the car?
They did offer me a similar allowance on a trade in but it fell far short of what a forced buy back would cost them. I also did not want to do this because the dealer would most likely resell it, as is, and dump the problem on some other unsuspecting customer. If they are forced to do a buy back PA lemon law requires them to inform any prospective buyer that the car was a forced buy back under the state lemon law.
I believe Subaru is trying to find a fix. This effort so far has cost them a good deal of money on my car alone. They could have chosen the Toyota option which is to first deny there is a problem, then stonewall and finally ignore the customer. That's why there is now one Toyota and one Subaru in my garage rather than two Toyotas. Next year at this time, and forever after, there will be zero Toyotas in my garage.
Be patient while Subaru attempts to find a fix but do keep your options open to protect yourself and do some research on the lemon law in your state. Hang on to those service department work orders that list mileage, dates the car is in the shop (date in/date out), reason for service and problem resolution. Not being able to fix the problem should also be indicated on the work order.
Vince
I met with a lawyer a couple of weeks ago to see what my options are. I've been diligent about keeping records on the repair attempts and conversations with SoA. The lawyer says I definitely have a strong case. In NC I think legal fees are not automatically paid -- the judge has to award them or SoA has to agree to them in a settlement. NC's Lemon Law is 12 months or 12,000 miles and I believe 4 repair attempts is the magic number.
The reason I didn't go ahead and pursue the legal option right then is I wanted to give Soa the benefit of the doubt and see if we could come up with a compromise that would benefit both of us. But like your situation, what SoA offers is much less than I could get than if I pursued the lemon law. Also, SoA's offer is no good since the dealer refuses to accept my car at trade-in for any price. That says a lot.
Thanks again for the info.
Sharon
Like the rest of the Subie owners that frequent this forum you're right on top of things and paying attention to all the details.
The attorneys I spoke with also agree that I have an extremely strong case, despite the mileage now on my car, because the problem occurs only during warm weather and the fact I have two documented occurrances of dealer service calls around 9000 miles. One of the attorneys also arbitrates lemon law cases.
Vince
Now the pinging issue. First, my llbean does NOT have a pinging problem and I live in a hilly area of southeastern PA where everyday driving has the car climbing hills. They are not tall hills but nonetheless they are hills and the car is exposed to this driving every day. But I hear the concerns of other and I will state that pinging of any sort is a BIG problem for an engine. I am an electrical engineer by degree and currently work in the software design but I have taken several courses in physics and mechanical engineering fields. The posting that listed two text books for description of pinging are very good sources for this problem. Pinging can be intermittent based on variability in gas grades, external temperature, car loading, terrain, etc. But intermittent is just that; it is not present on everyday traveling. It is very dangerous to an engine and will ultimately result in lack of performance , burned seals, burining oil, pistion damage, valve damage. Resulting in a new engine. It is not to be taken for granted and the fact that SOA has stated that there is no metal to metal contact does not make the problem less. There usually is no metal to metal contact in pinging, the rattle is due to pre-ignition. But if it worses, over pressure can cause the pistion to ram the valves resulting in metal contact and destroying the valves. First thing to look for is the on-board computer, have the mechanics reset and adjust the code. I have to believe someone at Fuji can modify the code.
Good luck
But holy cow! The turning radius is another matter. I have to make a really tight turn (45 degrees) to get onto the narrow street above. My 1990 Legacy makes it as long as I crank like the Dickens. The 2002 Outback doesn't come close and I am forced to do the zig and zag thing. I checked the specs on my 1990 and it actually claims a 6" wider turning radius than the Outback.
What is up with that? The feel of the steering in the 2002 is quite different...more feel for the road, more muscle required. The dealer told me that this is what people want. Great, but if I can't turn as tight it's not much help to me. And I am not a weakling. Is there some kind of modification that can be made to the steering that would make the power assist a little more responsive?
Thanks, Cindy
95-96 L FWD? You won't find too many owners of those here. They had the 2.2l engine that later powered the Outback Sport, and there are no major problems that I've heard of on those.
Changes for 2003? It's too early to tell. Subaru will be focusing on the new Forester, the ST-X, and perhaps new editions of the WRX, so don't expect too much of a face-lift, if any at all.
Sharon: I agree the 17k trade offer was ridiculous. Withdrawing the offer even more so. I would work with the Subaru rep to find a dealer that will take the trade AND the credit.
-juice
First, off, thanks for the previous advice.
I went out car shopping again this past weekend and have finally made up my mind as to which Outback to purchase, which add-ons to add and what color I would prefer. Now, it is time for the final decision. I've always been one to seek as much advice as possible, so again, any advice is much appreciated. Should I buy the 2001 or the 2002? I know that there will be a price difference, due for one to the financing (if through SOA), but what would be a realistic difference in the buying purchase price from the dealer. Juice, you mentioned a difference of $790 after the rebate. Should I realistically expect to only pay that much more? In my opinion, that may be worth it.
Thanks again,
Colin
Sharon - I hope that SOA comes through for you. That has always been one of my big beefs with the whole dealer Franchise system is that often both play the "Its a dealer/manufacturer issue" blaming the problem on each other and leaving the customer unresolved and in the middle. I would say that it ultimatley lies with SOA. The dealer is under no obligation to buy your car, he has to be able to re-sell whatever he buys and it doesn't sound like this car deserves to be resold. Of course the fact that he won't buy it is very much tantamount to admitting there is a problem with it (despite the fact that you have been told otherwise).
I would hope that SOA would buy the car, use it for testing of the ping problem or slap a new engine in it and send it down the used channel.
Hope you don't have to go the legal route, thats always a hassle.
Not sure what good going to the media is going to be. "Customer gets screwed by auto dealership" doesn't exactly make for attention grabbing headlines anymore. You'd need a knife and those firestone wilderness AT tires (just kidding)
Keep us posted
The base we have is the adjustable one (the rear can raise/lower with a large dial). It does take some coaxing and twisting of the seatbelt ends to get the base snug. Once it's in, it's really snug - it won't budge for/aft or sideways. Always check it periodically as the seat cushions do absorb some of the tension and pressure - the seat can become loose.
I've also installed the 'plain' On My Way base (non-adjustable). The only thing I needed was something firm under the rear of the base (I took several corrugated cardboard pieces and stacked them). This puts the base at the correct angle.
(rambling on) We also have a Fischer Price seat that we'll use once our daughter is out of the rear-facing carrier. We had the Red Cross show us how to install this seat (even though it'll be a while before we use it) - it went in without a hitch and was quite secure.
Be patient and don't be afraid to twist the belt ends to help secure the EvenFlo base in. It does take some grunt-ing to help tighten things. Our other car is a Saturn SL which has really crummy back seats - we couldn't install the EvenFlo base in the center (it just wouldn't get tight enough). So, it's now on the side and is secure (but also with the cardboard trick to firm the rear).
-Brian
The X-country is $5-$10K more than even the VDC, so if the seats are worth $5K to you, then I guess the X-country is for you.
-mike
Replacing the engine as a fix to the pinging problem so the car can then be resold won't correct the problem. The problem is not related to an engine problem but is more than likely being caused by an emission control system flaw.
Vince
I can tell you first hand that going to the media will not work. I was part of a class action lawsuit against Ford for the AOXD transmissions that were in the Tuarus/sable line in the late 1997. The key person in this class action lawsuit actually had 20/20 (the ABC show) do an interview with him and the problems he had. I had 4 transmissions replaced on the taurus I had owned each new one was worse then the previous. The show for this problem kept getting postponed until it was outright cancelled.
You have an extended warranty so when that engine fails, they will have to replace it. Why not now?
Vince gave sound advice as well, if resale will play a role.
I think that any baby seat can fit well if properly installed. Get help - many dealers will install them for you. Watch them do it and learn. My wife's 626 doesn't even have a top tether anchor, but they still managed to get a seat installed on a slippery leather surface so tight that it would not budge. They literally had one guy put his knee in it and press down hard while the other tugged the seat belt with all his might. The shoulder belt should lock, and if not, use the clip provided with the seat. They put a non-slip liner under the seat, too.
The Outback has a tether anchor, so I imagine it could be even tighter.
-juice
Beyond that, alignment, most likely.
-juice