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Full Sized Vans
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If I wanted the most reliable, I'd choose a Ford.
If I wanted the best looking, best riding, best engines and tranny's, I'd choose Chevy/GMC.
If I wanted the cheapest..... no, I could never choose a dodge.
***#402 of 406 Front leg room in VANS by xfiles Feb 10, 2001 (07:36 pm)***
PLEASE NOTE THE DIMENSIONS OF THE ENGINE COVER (DOGHOUSE) INCREASE BY 5" (INCHES) IF YOU ORDER EITHER THE VORTEC 7400 OR 6.5L DIESEL.
EVEN WITH THE ADDED 5" ON THE "DOGHOUSE" (SHOULD YOU DECIDE ON ORDERING THE LARGER ENGINES), I DO AGREE THE GM/GMC OFFERS MORE FRONT PASSENGER LEG ROOM, WHICH IS A MAJOR PLUS FOR GM IN MY CURRENT DEBATE ON WHICH VAN TO PURCHASE (FORD VS. GM).
ALSO THE ABILITY TO GET A 2500 (3/4 TON) PASSENGER VAN WITH THE GM VS. THE NEED TO PURCHASE THE E-350 (1 TON), SIMPLY TO GET A HEAVY DUTY PASSENGER MODEL (NON EXTENDED 12 SEAT VERSION), IS ANOTHER PLUS FOR THE GM.
ONE THING I DO LIKE ABOUT THE FORD IS THE DOUBLE WALL CONSTRUCTION VS THE SINGLE WALL SHEETMETAL GM USES. I ALSO THINK THE INTERIOR FORD TRIM IS OF A SLIGHTLY HIGHER QUALITY THAN WHAT GM IS NOW USING.
TRANSMISSION AND ENGINE ISSUES ASIDE, I SUSPECT THE FORD BODY DESIGN HAS MORE OF THE "KINKS" WORKED OUT THAN THE NEWER GM BODY DESIGN.
WHAT I AM CURRENTLY RESEARCHING IS IF I WOULD WANT FORD'S TWIN I-BEAM FRONT SUSPENSION. I SEEM TO REMEMBER THIS AS BEING TOUGH ON FRONT TIRES.
THE RESEARCH CONTINUES............
Your point about slightly better workmanship for the interior I agree with, butthe Ford to me also has a more older interior styling in my book.....so it was not a big factor. On the other hand, myself and my friend (who builds limousines) consider things like cloth easily replaceable with anything we wish, although I don't plan on doing anything (after all, just look at some 1996 used passenger models used by airports and the seats still are holding up as well as the rest of the interior).
There were two good articles which I unfortunatley don't know the locations of here at Edmunds. One is from a professional mechanic (under "full sized vans"....roughly between #100-150). He had bought the GMC mainly because he felt the Fords have a inferior engine (although today I see in consumers reports that many engines
score favourably). His complaint with Ford engines was that the manifold was made of a type of plastic, and under high RPM's or extended idling times it would warp.
Another article was by a Transmission shop owner that I found also at Edmunds (darn if I have a clue to even point you towards the right section). However, I remember specifically that he found many of the lighter duty trannys (1500 series) coming in for repairs and felt that it was not built tough enough for towing (thats what killed them the most). He then said that the GMC heavy duty tranny (4L80E) is one of the best auto transmissions on the market right now. I have read since then others mentioning how tough this tranny is, and all the complaints your hearing is with the lighter duty 1500 series tranny. Just remember you need to go to a 2500 series passenger van (its standard), but on 2500 cargo vans it must be ordered (is optional).
I based my purchase solely on leg room, a decent engine (5.7L rated favourabley), and the rock solid tranny. To me the tranny outweighs the interior workmanship (but it is not too bad). The thing I noticed about GMC is the type of cloth they use. If you get it in grey it looks like a potato sack cloth (with dirty looking beige fibers in it from day one like very dirty laundry). When I looked at the neutral interior (light brown dash and brown cloth), there was a remarkable change. Not only did the cloth on the seats look vibrant and clean looking, but the carpets are a nicer light tone, and the plastic throughout stands out. I think possibly it is the color of the materials that gives it the bad interior image. I have noticed a few people commenting that the seats even on a new vehicle looked worn due to the color and fibre.
As to the double wall body, I had no idea about that...guess we learn something new every day. However, rust is my concern even if I can do my own body work, and so far I have looked at a lot of Savanas and Express models (far back as 1996). I looked under the wheel wells also becuase originally I wanted to buy used (fat chance of getting a good one that way). All the panels underneath were free from rust. So the body to me stands up well enough.
Good luck in your choice. I still think leg room is the most important issue though. I can't stand the idea of tilting my knees to one side due to the dog house in the way. Comfort on long trips is number one in my book. GMC also has the smoothest ride, even the 3500 passenger I drove on a test drive really surprised me (maybe cause it was the extended model). I expect the 2500 to be slightly better for ride. At several sites people have also commented at how quite a ride it is also with low wind noise at high speed (although one person specifically complained about that, probably a defect of some sort).
I learned a long time ago that if you let the salesman steer you to what you "really want anyway" vs. showing initial interest in your ultimate objective, you can sometimes get a better price....anyway, I was hoping for the regular wheelbase and not the extended, but the 12 seat arrangement is what I would want. The 10,000 miles means nothing to a van like this, so from my perspective, it is still brand new.
I will go back Monday and let the salesman sell me on the idea of a gas guzzling, oversized boat and see if I can get the price lower than the $19,999.00 he had it listed in the paper for.
The "double wall body" issue is more important if your purchasing a cargo van...a dent on the inside becomes a dent on the outside...It just struck me, when looking inside both Ford and Chevy Cargo Vans and seeing the difference, the double-wall looked more robust.
As for the improved handling, that is the difference between the Chevy Independent front suspension and the Ford Twin I-beam. I had the Ford Twin I-beam on a 1986 pickup...they are harder to align and once the tires start to get worn, they deteriorate really fast.
My only remaining debate is on the "Limited-slip" or "locking differential" as Chevy calls it. Can't decide if I should insist on it or not.....?????
I will test drive the Chevy on Monday and then re-test drive the Ford that afternoon and perhaps make a decision then. I am getting a little tired of all this research. Good thing I don't buy new cars very often !
Although I am Canadian from Ontario (our prices are much different), I had it priced out on my holidays in New Hampshire by a friend who works at the GMC dealer. For a totally loaded GMC 2001 Savana 2500 SLE extended with:
* 1SD package(all options in this package)
* Trailer package
* Locking Rear differential
* AM/FM radio with CD (no cassette)
* 6 way power seat (driver side only)
* Leather wrapped steering wheel
* Power exterior mirrors (heated)
* Rear defogger
Note: The 3500 model is about $460 more.
it came out to $30,975 plus $690 destination for grand total of $31,665 (MSRP Price). Their price marked on the build sheet they gave me was $28,735 U.S. as the best they could do (plus $2500 for getting it through customs????). Well, I stuck with buying in Canada. Bottom line is if you can get it for $19,999 and maybe knock a bit more off... that is a SUPER DEAL for such low mileage (provided its clean and dent free). In my area the demand is so high (Toronto) you cannot even get close to that. For a 2000 model some only discounted $3000-3500 off a new 2001 model. They argued go order and wait 3 months or more and lose business while your waiting (mine is for private use though). So I got 4 weeks roughly left to wait, and the salesman that week I hope was eating hamburger rather then steak for that comment.
As for the limited slip differntial, I have pushed enough light vehicles for various reasons, and don't want to try pushing something equal to 2-3 vehicles in weight! Lot of people have said its almost as good as 4 wheel drive when your stuck in sand, dirt, a ditch etc. However, I have heard it is not always effective in snow, because if both wheels engage at the rear you lose traction and the vehicles rear end wanders sideways sometimes as both wheels engage.....so it's good to have one wheel holding to the road to keep it staight according to him. I don't know how much truth there is in that, I still ordered with it, but the deal you mentioned....I wouldn't worry. As to reliability, it should hold up as long as you don't try leaving rubber on the asphalt at each intersection. Also remember that the limited slip axle (from my Chilton Manual) says it is a different gear oil from the regular axle....be careful! Bet lot of guys at Wallmart think all gear oil is the same! Guess who pays for the mistake? If your handy, getting a rear end from the wreckers "some day" and installing it yourself is no big deal either (they can install for you very cheaply too). So I woulnd't worry about it. I haven't heard anything bad about it otherwise.
Good luck which ever vehicle you buy!
If you want to read some scary stories, go read the forum "towing with a mini-van"....it is about the 3rd or 4th from the bottom. What you will find is all those new Honda Odyssey owners trying to justify towing over the 3500lb limit, so they don't feel so bad about buying the latest "trend". You can bet if I ever come across one of them towing a large heavy trailer with that front wheel drive mini-van, I won't stick around long enough to admire the fine lines of the automobile !
Here I am concerned with towing a 25ft, 4500lb, "DRY" (holding tanks empty, no supplies, no extra people in the van, etc), 25ft camper with a full size van capable of towing 6500lbs (emphasis on the work MAXIMUM TOWING CAPACITY)! And these guys are trying to justify exceeding the 3500lb weight limit mini-vans have (but I added a larger tranny cooler !!).
One guy was complaining that every time he pulled into a gas station, his rear end would drag ! I am surprised he had any traction left on those front wheels as his rear end sank. Front wheel drive was never designed with towing in mind.
I took a look at the section towing with minivans...LOL! The GMC full size vans (passenger) were designed for heavy work....up to 3000 lbs of passengers daily and year round (reason why they offer as standard the heavy duty axles and tranny in 2500 series and above, and not with the cargo vans).They even added a "engine cooler" for the oil (not tranny cooler) to beef things up some on the engine end of things. I was surprised though that it didn't need a tranny cooler per their recommendations (but I am adding one regardless of what they say).
I think your well within the safe margin for towing that trailer of yours....thats only a bit more then a load of passengers (LOL). Besides, your not towing it everyday of the year. A further note, the literature for 2001 downrated from last year the tow ratings to likely a very solid expectation of what it can do. I really doubt you will have a problem, especially when that particular tranny (4L80E) is used in their bigger cube trucks with 177 inch wheelbase with 12000 GVWR lbs and base payload of 7322 lbs(imagine what them things do each day....lots of hard work in shipping departments of companies). This data is from Chevys COMMERCIAL VAN CATALOG FOR 2001. The tow problems your reading about in this section are with the 1500 series, and the transmission shop owner in this section had stated what the problem was with the light duty tranny (which I cannot remember). It was somewhere in the 100-200 range of this section. Just change that tranny oil frequently!!!!!
By the way, I looked at a Ford van briefly as I walked by it at Home Depot. I didn't notice any double wall construction on the walls. In fact, there were some dents from the inside pushing the sheet metal outwards, and from the outside it was noticeable. Did you actually see it or read about it? I don't know the year of this vehicle, but I do not remember seeing any double wall construction even on the 2001 models. Perhaps it is only along the bottom edges???
It is the 2000 "Chateau" model, not the 2001 (although they are identical, with no model changes). A local Ford dealer had two of these 2000 models left over (both brand new, 26 miles), and he made me an offer I could not refuse....He sold me mine for $1,000 below Invoice. The $1,000 represented a dealer incentive Ford was offering dealers for clearing out 2000 models. Since I plan on keeping the van for many years, I did not care if it was a 2000 or 2001.
It has plenty of power (5.4L) and is as "loaded" as a full size van can be (Power drivers seat, towing package, limited slip, 2nd battery, CD Player, Privacy glass, chrome rear step bumper, remote keyless entry) . The MSRP was $30,145.00 and Invoice was $26,339.40. After the $1,000 discount from Invoice, my final bill was $25,339.40, a total savings of $4,805.60 from MSRP.
I might have gone with the Chevy, but we ran out of time (my wifes promotion came sooner than we thought, and her new position required a second car for our family). So now, we will really be able to compare the Ford with the Chevy !!!!!
When does yours arrive?
LONG LIVE FULL SIZE VANS !!!!!!!!!!
Sounds like yu got a conversion van with big windows too! Did yu get a high roof? I wish that was offered as a factory option, because to add it now with rear air and heat on my savana would be a pain.
Your right about one thing, we should be able to compare the two brands of vehicles. It's funny though, we have never mentioned DODGE (duh). That thing is a dinasour in my book in styling and mechanical, alhough I hear a new one is on the drawing board. Only thing, chrysler is known for bugs the first year of production. All things considered, I think either the Ford or GMC should be fine. After all, we have been hashing it over and still cannot get a definative answer on the issues. Bottom line, change your oil, take care of it and ENJOY IT! The rest is a risk, I had a brand new Honda Civic once, and a week later it was burning oil badly and valve job at 2000 miles. Lets hope we both got a "good one" out of the box!
I'll let yu know soon as mine comes in! What color you get? Mine is autumnwood ...kind of a beige with neutral (brown) interior.
Yu got a good price too from what I saw when I priced it out on the U.S. side. In Canada, it costs $38,480 MSRP for the Savana 2500 extended SLE passenger van and loaded, and I got mine for $35,075. Tax was extra>>>>get a load of this >>>> it's 15% in Canada toward GST and PST. That hurts! Us Canadians always get the bad end of the deal.
Hey, where yu storing your van? I have 2 garages, a car in one, the van will go in the other......I'm having fun though extending the length of it and "height"....LOL. My neighbours are wondering what kind of monster this is since it won't fit in a standard garage! I even have to change my doors from overhead swing down to barn style doors!
New Dodge van NOT in the future, but apparently this is:
http://www.freightliner.com/corp/press_release.asp?id=208
huh? 2003/2004 apparently. My brother says they have begun tooling up in SC. Note that there is a passenger van.
It seems most people choose the "Conversion" concept primarily for the second row Captains chairs anyway (something the Ford "Chateau" and 2001 Chevy 1500 Express "LT" also have).
I have Huge safety concerns with fiberglass tops and large rear windows....not for me, no thanks. If you were to roll a fiberglass topped conversion, the top disintegrates immediately, exposing your passengers to open air. And those oversized windows are huge exit portals for kids during an accident.
Ford takes the regular passenger van (150 or 350) and adds the captains chairs, alloy wheels, power everything, dark tinted windows and a two-tone paint job for the regular "Chateau". They go a step further with the 2001 "Traveler" version by adding leather seats, Overhead entertainment system and a unique green paint job. I passed on the "Traveler" version because I have no interest in a VCR based entertainment system (would prefer DVD), although the leather seats would have been nice (I have three kids who like to spill things).
As for where I will be keeping mine, I have no choice at this time but to keep it outside (our garage would never allow this thing inside, no clearance). You can bet your last dollar however that I will be putting at least 3 coats of premium wax on this beast, particularly on the large top where you can't easily see just how many birds have used it as a toilet.
I already ordered front floor liners ($69.95) from "Husky Liners" (huskyliner.com) and am researching solutions for the cargo area (Husky does not make a custom cargo tray for the Econoline, so I will be getting creative on that area). Until my floor liners arrive I will continue getting paper floor mats from the Ford dealer service department. I look at how dirty those are already and realize that could have been my carpet !!!
One thing I have noticed....not many companies make "extra's" specific for the Econoline. Now the F-250 Super Duty truck is another story !
I never researched out the Ford models available extensively, so I wasn't aware of the Chateaus and Travellers. I had made my choice very early in my decision making process for GMC based on "legroom" exclusively. The only thing that would have tipped the scales toward Ford would have been major reliability problems, and so far either brand rates reasonably well.
Hey, don't forget another important option to floor mats>>>> High pressure washer(LOL)>>>>to clean all those mats and save on huge car wash bills. I don't think I want to bring a ladder with me to wash the roof either. It's best to wash at home!
Good point about them fiberglass roofs regarding safety. You lose all your strength when the top is cut, and your left with a wobbly top shell that is secured only by clamps and a rubber seal to keep moisture out. I would hate to roll one, and imagine side crashes would cause much greater damage with lost side wall strength. Your front doors have side beams, but what good are they when the door is shut against a weakened side wall. The whole thing can push in I bet.
X: kind of hard to get excited about that Mercedes, isn't it? It's hard to tell the size. That thing is not as wide as one of our fullsizes, but just as tall. I saw a picture w/ a Fedex driver by one. It gave it some reference for height. I do like the thought of 30mpg, though.
The study stated the vans, particularly when loaded with passengers, handle poorly and are prone to roll over. They gave the vans a 1 star rating for a new static stability safety rating, whereas minivan typically received a 4 star rating.
This is an important counter argument in the general bigger is safer rationale for purchasing large vans and SUV's.
If you really believe you are safer in a crash in a Metro or Civic than a fullsize van, then good luck. Paint your safety stars on the door if it helps.
I don't think anyone has said that a fullsize handles like a car-based little van. Sitting lower to the ground makes that unavoidable. Anyone who carries a large load, boat or kids or whatever, should understand that the handling characteristics are drastically different.
Those little vans come with tradeoffs. They simply cannot carry loads. Most cannot tow more than 3000 lbs, and that is if the van itself is empty. Most handle poorly when full of passengers and cargo. They ride on nonreinforced passenger tires that aren't built for a load (see recent Firestone fiasco that continues to spread across the industry) and are simply unsafe with more than a few thousand pounds on them.
The little van fills the role formerly reserved for big station wagons. Better handling and a little better gas mileage (2mpg city and 4mpg highway assuming a V6 or small v8 in the fullsize), carries two to four adults, and additional kids for a total of seven passengers.
The seat in the back of most little vans is hardly better than those rear facing rumble seats found in old station wagons, in my opinion. In many little vans, it is an three or four inches from the back glass. And I haven't been to impressed with how much damage is done to that seat in a bad rearend crash. I seem to remember safety reports about several of the little vans regarding seat safety problems.
If a little van suits your needs, great. It certainly fits the role needed for some folks. If you are not capable of driving a big van, you know better than I do.
However, not everyone thinks it makes much sense to pay more money for less utility. (When I say less money, I'm comparing a factory passenger big van, such as Clubwagon or similar Chevy, with a standard little van. Most people compare a factory little van with a conversion big van and claim that the little van is cheaper.) Some people do carry or tow loads of more than a thousand pounds. Some do make long trips.
I get a laugh at statistical studies quite often, especially in how they tabulate results. Most of them people working for the government have never had a single course or if they did they failed basic math. My alumni quarterly news had a study completed by the department, and you can believe the results if you want (but the percentage total added up to 116%). My point is when you analyzed data you must ask yourself is it reliable and is it valid ( Does it measure what you intended it to be for). It;s easy to add up numbers on roll overs, but does it really correlate with something, and at what level of significance. Sometimes people use data to back up their arguments (even if the data is wrong) to the point of faking a major report. Bottom line is, a Civic may not roll as easily as a van, but is roll-over that important. Ask yourself:
1. How many rollovers have you been involved in
compared to rear and fron end collisions.
2. Are you going to carry a full 12 passenger?
Is it for a 2-3 people for recreational or for
commercial reasons...rollover might not be
as big a deal. Three people in a full size van
is not even noticeable, but considered a fair
load in a little van.
3. Do you feel safer in a 1900 lb Tercel or in a
6500 heavy duty van with huge subframe to stop
major rear end or front collisions.
4. Do you feel safe sitting so low to the ground.
A 2500/3500 series van has seats up to your
chest (I'm 6 foot)....even in side collisions
your above the persons hood. I may be injured
but likely will not be crushed.
5. Do you feel safer with a TOyota or Intrepid
with those tapered low front hoods that clearly
will leave you pinned under a bigger vehicle,
or catch a deer by the legs and toss him
through your window. I see on average
travelling through the mountain areas of
Vermont and NH at least 2 collisions with deer,
but haven't seen a roll over. In fact I see
very few rollovers whenever there are accidents
on the side of the road.
6. Do you feel safer sitting in a small van with
your seat only 4 inches behind the rear window,
compared to a full size van offering 4-6 feet
of rear cargo space for protection.
7. Who will suffer the worse from whiplash in a
rear ender. My little car was pushed about 5
feet forward and enough to give me light neck
injuries. If I was in a big 6500 lb van that
van would barely have budged, therefore no
neck injury. Instead the other guy would have
absorbed more of the impact.....while I may
have only spilled my coffee at most. An
extended van gives me 12 feet behind the seats.
8. Is it safer to pull a 4000 lb trailer with a
little van capable of only 3500 lbs, or with a
full size van that doesn't know it is even
there.
Nothing is safe with a full load(cargo or people), not even a transport truck is safe with 20,000 lbs of steel on his bed...it is always a compromise then. But what is safer, a small overloaded vehicle, or the "same" amount of people occupying a full size van that can easily handle the job! If roll over is such a problem, then just slow down. The statistics I bet never mention the type of driving when the rollovers happened.
36 Best Overall Models
Aura AL
Audio A6
BMW 740i
750i
Buck Regal
Chevrolet Express 2600
Express 3500
Suburban C1500
Suburban K1500
Chrysler Town and Country
Dodge B2500 Ram Van/Wagon
Ford Econoline E150
Econoline E250
Econoline E350
F150
F250
MC Savant 1500
Savant 2500
Savana 3500
Yukon XL C1500
Infiniti Q45
Jaguar VDP
XJ8
XK8
XKR
Mercedes-Benz E320
E430
E55 AMG
Pontiac Montana
Saab 9-3
9-5
Volvo C70
S40
S70
S80
V70
Source: State Farm
Also, I am not comparing Civic's to full-sized vans!
There have been people in this forum (might have been under a different title like minivan vs. full-sized) that have justified the purchase of a full sized van due to safety considerations. These considerations now have some data against them, by an independent group. NHTSA alleged political agenda is a theory that I don't believe, even if you do, however, the data they cite is real and should be considered by consumers.
Mrnmimmo-- your comment that minivans or little vans "handle poorly when full of passengers and cargo" is misleading. They may handle poorly compared to a sedan, however, compared to a full sized van they handle much better.
The NHTSA study said the full sized van handling was very poor, particularly when loaded down. It did not say that about minivans.
If you read road reviews of minivans they discuss handling. If you read reviews of full-sized vans, they discuss utility. I just hope people seriously consider the rollover and handling problems with these vehicles, for all our safety.
"Most roll over crashes occur when a vehicle runs off the road and is tripped by a ditch, curb, soft soil, or other object causing it to roll over. These crashes are usually caused by driver behavior such as speeding or inattention. These are called single vehicle crashes because the crash did not involve a collision with another vehicle".
"While the Roll over Resistance Rating does not directly predict the risk of injury or death, keep in mind that rollovers have a higher fatality rate than other kinds of crashes. Remember: Even the highest rated vehicle can roll over, but you can reduce your chance of being killed in a roll over by about 75% just by wearing your seat belt".
"Since most vehicle rollovers are single-vehicle crashes, they are often preventable. They are unlike non-rollover multiple-vehicle crashes involving frontal, side and rear impacts, where another driver may have been responsible for the crash".
****This information is from the NHTSA site. The information I posted earlier in post #426, came from the State Farm site, and was based on "actual" (not simulated) claims experience.
Just as a full size van owner can increase the risk of accident by poor driving habits (speeding or inattention), the mini-van driver can increase the risk of accident by the improper use of their vehicle. If you don't understand what I am talking about, pay a visit to the "Towing with a mini-van" forum. I was amazed at the number of mini-van owners who exceed their cars towing capacity or simply don't understand the limitations of front wheel drive.
No sense in quibbling further. I just ask, have you driven an Econoline XLT/Chateau or equivalent Chevy lately? Sounds like a commercial, doesn't it?
My point was that the car unibody chassis/tranny/break/tires riding underneath little vans are easily overloaded. Few vacationers realize it until they pop a tire on I-4 between Jax and Disney.
Towing with a minivan thread: quite a laugh. I've been there a few times. Questions like this
"I own this 4 cylinder Voyager and I want to tow my 8,000 lb boat on a trailer without brakes. I also plan on carrying me, my wife, the inlaws and our three kids and enough luggage to stay at the lake for two weeks. Now I know that the owner's manual says 3000 lbs max, but I figure there's a large safety margin built in. I should be ok as long as I remember my safety chains, right?"
Then some other guys posts that it's ok, he's done it several times. Just remember to check your tranny fluid level--coolers or changing fluids aren't really necessary.
The handling of new, full-sized vans is horrendous compared to that of a new market minivans. I sometimes drive my father-in-laws full-sized van, which is 3 years old, and recognize I have to drive slower and more carefully than in our 11 year old minivan (a Previa).
If I had one of the new minivan, like an Odyssey or Sienna or a new Grand Caravan, the difference would be greater. These vehicles handle better than the Grand Marquis's! Better than many sedans that are 10 years old.
I don't know what your motivation is in denigrating NTHSA. Your data or thoughts aren't better and you might be swaying people to buy a vehicle that is less safe. The problem NTHSA addressed is real-- many people die in accidents with loaded full-sized vans. Sometimes these vans are carrying church youth groups, soccer teams, seniors. Their drivers are not used to the large van's handling. They are volunteers. Maybe it is their fault that the vans rolled over, causing many deaths. That tragedy can be avoided if the NHTSA results are made known and the drivers recognize that the vehicle they are driving requires more care, more room to brake, more distance between the car in front of them, and lower speeds. Or that trajedy could be avoided if they drove a minivan instead, or two minivans. It is a real issue.
As for safety, here's the link on the Rollover info:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/article/0,1051,SAV-0103120250,00.html
Even excluding handling, braking and rollovers, I think you'd find that any of the safer minivans stack up well against full-sized vans in safety. Windstar LX (4050 lbs, 18/25mpg) and Econoline E150 XLT (4680 lbs, 14/19mpg) are similar in price and standard features. Both are over 4000 lbs, where the IIHS statistics show weight is no longer a major factor for reducing injuries. Windstar claims top NHTSA and IIHS crash ratings, and a more extensive set of safety features (see http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/testing/NCAP/SaferCar2001/contents.html ). Econoline gets 4 star NHTSA frontal ratings and is untested in side and IIHS offset tests. Windstar also comes up on top in these comparisons:
http://www.crashtest.com/ford_truck/ie.htm
http://www.seatbelt.com/safest_cars.html
Either of these vehicles is going to be much safer than a sub-compact. Compared to each other, it's pretty close. You pays your money, you takes your choice. If you don't need the cargo/passenger/towing capability of the full-sized van, you're likely to be better served and just as safe with a top minivan.
Tow or heavy load inside the van, it's all the same. Most folks don't realize how much weight is in there mini when they stick grandma, grandpa, the three kids and all the luggage in and on the little van. How many people died last year because of overloaded passenger tires (to get that soft carlike handling) on SUV's and minivans? I seem to remember a story last year about overloaded Firestones that blossomed into many different makes. For that matter, how many kids sitting with their heads a few inches from the rear windows were killed in the back of those minivans? I seemed to remember a few stories about rear seat safety in Chrysler/Dodges that blossomed to include many different makes. Note that NHTSA still does not test for rearend collision safety. I'll bet more people died from these problems than from rollovers in fullsize vans.
Dplatcha, please don't get me wrong. I'm CERTAINLY not calling minivans (you mention Honda and Blowntranstar) unsafe. I'm just saying that the soccer mom safety hype is just that, hype. Marketers have found that this sells expensive leather-trimmed,vacuum-cleaner-looking boxes to women (usually) of a certain target age and income. Both fullsize and little vans are among the safest vehicles. Each has its strengths and weaknesses. I just don't like the people (not you) who swallow the marketing hype hook-line-and-sinker.
BTW, I love the Previa. Excellent vehicles and I wish Toyota still made a larger van. They seem to run forever and handle very well. The seating is ideal in my book. I'd definitely buy the right Previa for the right price. But they are not exactly a stalwart of safety. Do you feel safer in Previa than a fullsize? Not much between you and that Explorer in the oncoming lane except a windshield, is there? Do you know how much your van weighs and how much your tires will carry?
Hmmmmmmmmm. Newton's laws of physics are no longer applicable?
FYI, all vehicles are put through a 30mph (or maybe it was 35 mph) rear end crash test as part of the US NCAP - new car assessment programme - before they are allowed to be on sale in the US. This test mainly to verify the fuel system's performance in a rear end collision (read: that it doesn't blow up like the Ford Pinto did).
Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards
A mini
We must be clear of the type of accidents were discussing, roll overs are usually self inflicted accidents, the other type are collisions with other vehicles. The idea that weight does not apply in collions is NOT TRUE. The real meaning is that with the help of "crush zones" designed into the newer cars, now smaller vehicles can compete more favourably with the larger vehicles (high tech is giving us a hand). All things constant though, add the same technology and you bet weight makes a different (Newtons laws have and always will apply pound for pound). Drop and apple on my head and it will hurt more then a feather too!
I have also noticed were mixing apples and peaches here. You can't compare a fully loaded van with 12-15 passengers on equal grounds with a mini van . Load down a mini van with that many and watch the springs break, watch your bumpers scraping the road.....LOL. It is not a fair comparison.The full size van is doing the best job it can for that many people! On the other hand, most van owners have only 2-3 people in the vehicle as do mini van owners.....I think it is then a more fair comparison. Anything heavy and loaded loses it's centre of gravity, even a transport truck could be considered roll over prone and unsafe. Believe me, in an accident I would rather be in that transport truck (regardless if it has crush zones designed into it).
I have said it before, research data must be taken with a grain of salt. They never discussed advantages of sitting up very high and clear of being crushed from side collisions, or the advantage in deer collisions, nor did they discuss what happens when a low profile (front hood) vehicle hits a large 2500/3500 series van or SUV. You will lose more then your teeth, it has also been reported that most of these larger vehicles ride over the top of Intrepids, civics, and many low profile mini vans. This is also fact, and facts they forgot later in their summary reports.
I would rather sit in something up HIGH and with a lot of weight and a strong steel frame. Believe all the research on safety. What were they thinking when they designed all these vehicles with rear seats located 4 inches behind the rear window ....was that so hard see as unsafe. I think we need more common sense!@ I will listent to what they say, then make my decision later.
We must accept compromises, some vehicles are designed for smooth ride, others for 4x4 use, others for work (pickup trucks and vans)...they all have there advantages and disadvantages and we must accept safety limitations. IF you want to really be safe buy a tank or transport truck. The key is not which is the safest, but rather which are safer. Vguard posted the insurance ratings for safety>>>full size vans fit withing the category of being a safer vehicle. It may not be the safest, but at least it made the top 35 most safe vehicles. Worth noting is that all of the ones listed were larger vehicles, and most were vans/pickups/SUV's. Seems Newtons laws regarding size still apply!
As for handling and stating full size vans drive poorly, then try the GMC vans ...there quite nice.
If you want to compare them with a car that is once again not a fair comparison. Were talking size differences here, a big van will not handle as well as a smaller automobile due to center of gravity, etc. Also a family car will not handle as well as a racing car....it's all in relation to what you want. We sacrifice one thing for another. If you want a great ride it will be not be possible to also have lots of cargo space. Try loading your car down with 3000+ pounds of cargo and tell me how great your ride is....hopefully your tires are not collapsed or axles bent!@ Next thing your going to compare transport trucks with a Camry for ride. They all ride well for what they are required TO DO!!!
I said it before, question what you read. On the one hand we see the results from an insurance company, then the complete opposite from NHTSA regarding weight.
You mention that full size vans are unsafe and church groups, elderly, and soccer teams are in van accidents. Perhaps the data is swayed once more. How many vans drive daily loaded with 3000 pounds of cargo, we don't hear from those involved in accidents, but if its a church group invovled, or a Boeing 747 everyone knows about it.
Driving in two mini vans is absolutely absurd, because statistically it doubles your odds of being involved in an accident(it only halves the injuries if one of them collides). Many times your not at fault, others run into you, and many accidents occur at intersections. The type of vehicle and handling has nothing to do with theses types of accidents> if he rear ends you, drives into your side , etc.....it still will happen, and having two vehicles doubles your chances something happens. Handling is one of many issues in accidents. I agree though that every person should be familiar with the vehicle they are driving. Even in a new car most people are not fully comfortable and use to the handling, braking distances, etc for a few days. Bottom line>>>>>transport trucks don;'t handle well either......doesn't mean there not safe! But what is worse yet is the guy in the mini van who thinks he can tow a lot....there are many like that that I have to worry about who exceed the limits (or are at full capacity). These guys are a lot more dangerous then a full size van going down the road with what you call inferior handling.
Pricing (costing) conversion vans.
Steve
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
FWIW, full-sized vans are not subjected to the same stringent crash tests/roof strength standards that other vehicles are.
Drew
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Vans, SUVs, and Aftermarket and Accessories message boards
Regarding less stringent standards used on trucks and vans doesn't summarize anything. The best safety summary statistics is not a controlled crash into a wall, it's actual cases compiled from State Farm insurance (refer message 426 by Vguard) that I will tend to believe. That study supports one thing....the large vans and larger vehicles made it into the top 35 safest vehicles, yet NOT A SINGLE mini van was listed (NOT ONE!!). I think that supports the fact that size matters, although design issues put some of them up on the list (eg- Volvo). It also supports the issue that handling is not the major factor, or some mini vans would have made it on the list. They never made it simply because they lack something necessary to make them safe. Did stringent crash testing or roof strength standards get them on the list, did controlled crush points designed into the vehicle make a difference, or handling? I think by design trucks and vans put you up high enough out of harms way, you may be hurt, but less likely to be crushed. Your also more likely to ride over the top of a vehicle then be the one under the vehicle due to the low front end hood designs found today. Now there is an issue that we should be far more concerned about then the issue of handling and safety. Drive up to the front of a large van or 4x4 truck in your mini van or car......now look WAY UP! Tell me who is going to hurt more in a front end collision. That should be convincing enough!
It seems the whole issue of safety is over handling, NOTTTT TRUE, there are many variables! I suggest Dplachta (message 431) try driving something other then his father in laws van (likely a Dodge). Try a Chevy Express (GMC Savana equivalent). This vehicle has a postive feel on the steering (not sluggish) the same as my 1998 Corolla. Of course it won't handle a sharp curve, if you want that buy a corvette desinged for it. But as far as maintaining a straight line down a hiway without drifting.....NO PROBLEM! Drive one before you start complaining about handling. One van that handles poorly doesn't mean they all do. Coincidentally, the Astro (mini van) had a very poor feel on the road (sloppy steering). There are many cars that are just as bad!
Go see "Mr. Honeycut" and "James Plasko" (they work as a team, one is training the other) @ Performance Ford on Charlotte Avenue. That is where I just purchased my yr2000 Van (new). They still had one yr2000 Ford conversion van (new)left that listed for around $38,000 that I think you could pick up for about $27,000 (I think that is what the other one sold for while I was on the lot getting my van).
"xfiles" will hate me for steering you toward Ford (he is a Chevy man), but discounts rule in this game and I think Performance Ford is really trying to get rid of that last conversion van.
Good Luck !
All I've tried to do is point out a rollover problem and a handling issue with full-sized vans, documented by NHTSA (also, the handling issue is pointed out in the test drive review of every make of these vehicles). I'm not denegrating the usefullness of full-sized vans or claiming minivans can tow better.
I just hope that folks considering the purchase of a full-sized vans take this issue into account. More importantly, I pray people driving these vans understand they have to be more careful.
http://www.hwysafety.org/srpdfs/sr3301.pdf and http://www.crashtest.com/explanations/weight/ie.htm
It's easy to dismiss the NHTSA tests, IIHS tests, advanced safety and accident avoidance features in favor of one insurance company's claims data. Still, you should be aware that claims data, while useful, measures safety indirectly. While there is an element of real-world safety, there is also the important element of driver profile. Claims data may also incorporate repair costs and theft risk, among other factors. Insurance companies will also vary from one to another, as driver profiles and vehicle thefts/repairs can vary by area as well. The crash tests and State Farm results do not conflict, they simply are not measurements of the same thing. Here are some additional links:
http://www.erieinsurance.com/default_ie1024.asp
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/problems/studies/InsCost/
It should also be noted that according to the NHTSA, rear end collisions account for 4% of all motor vehicle collisions, side impacts were 24%. They also note that rollovers accounted for more deaths in 1999 than side and rear impacts combined.
Another good site is http://www.iihs.org , this is the company that compiles accident statistics for most insurance companies. There are a number of excellent articles there.
My problem is demand here, they would be grabbed up before I could sneeze!
Hey, yu check your gas mileage yet?
Even if I had used up a tank, I read somewhere that you can't begin to see a real reflection of usage until after a few thousand miles.
One thing for certain, my price per gallon has gone down, since this vehicle does not call for high octane gas like my Volvo does.
Any word on your delivery date yet ?
Put an irresponsible driver (drunk or sober, towing or non-towing) in the statistically safest car on the road and he/she will still find a way to kill someone (besides themselves of course).
When I am transporting my children around town in my 5000lb+ Econoline, I am praying that all the "bad" drivers are in 2200 pound cars. Without a doubt, I consider "bad" drivers the enemy, and I will do whatever I can to gain an advantage over them. In this case, the weight and size of my Econoline serves as a backup to my careful and considerate driving habits.
Someone earlier mentioned "Driver Profile" as a major factor in insurance pricing. Without a doubt, we Econoline drivers are not known to live life in the "fast lane". People simply do not choose to purchase a "non-trendy" square box for it's design or to impress members of the opposite sex. Trust me, nothing sexy about my white E-150 (which helps explain why most dealers do not even stock full size passenger vans on the lot). To further illustrate this point, when my sister-in-law first saw our new (white) E-150, the first thing she said was "you can paint my house" (implying I looked like a painter in my new van).
As for which is safer, the Econoline that occasionally tows heavy trailers and carries heavy loads, or the Honda Odyssey that attempts the same, I'll put my money on the Econoline every time. Heck, even my bumper is rated for towing 5,000 lbs. If I need greater capacity, I can use the Class IV weight distributing hitch, permanently attached to my frame.
I also don't buy into the "I am buying small light cars so I expect you to do the same" argument. If I did, I would argue that you should be purchasing an Econoline as well !!
When I sat down to decide what vehicle I wanted to buy, safety was one of several variables I considered. I also took into consideration what I wanted to do with the vehicle and how it would be used (which also leads back to safety, by the way). When the rubber hit the road, the large full size vans best served my current needs, so that is what I purchased.
Isn't America Grand !!!!!!!
Vguard, your arguement that the Econoline is safer than the Odyssey again goes back to its use as a tow vehicle.
You must be pulling my chain or not reading my messages. I'll bite, for the last time. No one here has argued that minivans even compare with full sized vans for towing. Obviously, an Odyssey loaded with 5,000 pounds will not be as safe as an Econoline loaded with 5,000 pounds. It sounds like you appropriately chose the full-sized van, given your towing of heavy trailers.
On the other hand, if YOU DO NOT TOW OR DO NOT OVERLOAD YOUR MINIVAN, a minivan handles much better than and does not roll over like a full-size van does. The full-sized van safety concerns are detailed in the NHTSA report. Thus, people driving full-sized vans need to be more careful and people shopping for a van needs to be aware of this.
My argument is best summarized in the last paragraph of my last post (#447). For your benefit, I will repeat it here:
"When I sat down to decide what vehicle I wanted to buy, safety was one of several variables I considered. I also took into consideration what I wanted to do with the vehicle and how it would be used (which also leads back to safety, by the way). When the rubber hit the road, the large full size vans best served my current needs, so that is what I purchased".
Nothing more, nothing less......
Actually, two were listed: Chrysler Town&Country and Pontiac Montana. This itself demonstrates the variability of insurance claims data, not only due to driver profile, but also from individual insurers. The NHTSA data I referenced, which is compiled by the IIHS/HLDI (who is funded by insurance companies including State Farm) lists the Pontiac Montana as its lowest loss rating in the Minivan category, yet Town and Country is one of the highest. Category by category, relative insurance loss payments for Minivans vs. Large/Cargo vans is about the same overall. Minivans and Large/Cargo vans appear to be the best categories out of all those listed. There's some good text at the top about how insurance rates and claims data relate to safety.
"I'll put my money on the Econoline every time."
In the scenario you mentioned, so would I. In our case, where we never tow, and over 99% of the time there are 2 adults and 2 children or less, we found a minivan to better suit our needs and to be just as safe, while at the same time saving 4-6mpg, emitting less pollution, and being safer to other vehicles on the road in an accident. We also liked the ride, handling, braking and standard safety features better. Like you said, it boils down to what serves your needs, and I don't think anyone has disagreed with that.
What it does appear we agree on (and please correct me if I am mistaken), is how wrong it would be for either of us to pass judgment on others, when it comes to what type or style vehicle they should purchase, regardless of their personal motivation for making any particular selection.
GOD BLESS AMERICA !!!!!
Plain and simple>>>>>>A minivan is a CAR<<<<<<<<
Take a Civic or a Sunfire (there are many other cars that will do) and then extend the roof straight back and then make a sharp cutoff at the back and you have your mini-van. GOOD LUCK! I think Vguard and I agree, do what you want, and so be it! You have no main frame, no tow capacity or payload (which is why vans and trucks exist), you have nothing. If I had to take 6 people and put them into a van, I would place them in a full size van any day (the mini van would be at maximum capacity already)and still have tons of luggage space for 6 people (where are you going to place luggage in a minivan). Pickups and full size vans are there for a reason.
Auto manufactureres have spent much more time improving safety of smaller vehicles rather then vans because the truck size vehicles always had the upper hand. Look at all the reports regarding SUV' driving right over the top of most of our modern day mini vans and cars due to low profile hoods. A full size van or truck is a SUV (and usually much bigger). They are the biggest and baddest in a collision. They are taller then minivans or cars, have a tendency to ride over the other victim, and as well the driver of these larger vehicles is sitting much higher to begin with. I have had my share of bumps with other drivers on the road (and I sure am not worried about roll over), I worry about "impacts" with them, not a roll over caused by my own fault.
If your still not sure, go to the salvage yards and have a look at the badly bent frames when the engines are removed. There is almost NOTHING holding them together. How much do you really know about vehicles, have you ever crawled under a vehicle to see the massive difference in body structure as well as component parts that work together in a synergetic effect? The axles,chassis, cross members, even door hinges are all massive! It's night and day, a bicycle vs an automobile.
If your still not sure about full size van safety, let me take you for a ride in a 2500/3500 series van. Drive your little Sienna van or whatever right into the back of this extended van (12'3" of rear space behind seats) while we take a trip around the block. If we reversed this, bet that Sienna would be crushed! Some minivans are so small now and can be compared to a Civic for size (except for the higher roof). Just because the roof has a different shape to it and it is called a minivan still doesn't change anything......the minivan is still a extremely tiny vehicle (a car). Most would agree a Civic has no chance against a huge pickup truck or full size van, but change its shape a bit and were all believing its safe now.
The issue maybe boils down to which mini van is safe, a windstar or Astro/Safari is bigger then most mini vans I see now on the market(the two largest I think). There are a few therefore that I give more respect too, but not when I look at some of these newer minivans. Some are getting smaller and smaller by design it seems, perhaps to improve on gas.
Bottom line is remember that a minivan is a light duty vehicle in tow/payload capacity, and all it's component parts (even the frame) are light duty in comparison to the largest 2500/3500 (or Fords 25/350) trucks and full size vans on the road. Light duty normally means >>>not as strong<<< Larger vehicles do not even need controlled crumple zones in the body. Transport trucks have none and are the safest on the road in a truck vs car collision. Yup, they have a high center of gravity and also are more likely to "roll over". Most truckers realize they are not driving a Ferrari, so they don't drive fast into curves in the road....and they manage! If I could afford the gas, I would be driving a Freightliner! What a view from up high!
Sorry for the mistake in my previous posting. In the list of 35 safest vehicles, I scanned over them too quickly...2 minivans made it on the safe list.
By the way, this safety issue is getting tiring.
Do we really care! I may not have the safest vehicle on the road, but it's also not the most dangerous. Since most vehicles on the road are midsize cars, I feel safe enough! Considering the full size van does all the other things I want (payload, tow capacity, lots of space, TV, a great view from up high, etc)....do we really care. LOL! It serves our needs well, and that is what matters.