Subaru Legacy/Outback

nematode · February 2001

Hey! Easy on the Taurus. The 89 and 90s vintages were excellent years for the Taurus. The 91-94s were some of the worst cars ever made. That happened after production was ramped up beyond reasonable quality control so that the most profit could be extracted from the line.
A few interesting facts:
My 89 Taurus V6 is over 140k on the original transmission and still gets better gas mileage and accelerates better than my wifes OB Ltd. It does have a few squeaks and some rust but is basically very quiet and rides very well at 65-70mph. It just passed inspection and FAST PASSED the new emissions standards. The emmissions are higher than when its was new but still several times lower than allowable at the standard. I would prefer to drive the OB but the Taurus my warrior car. I'm going to drive it until it dies and cannot be revived for under $1500.

The best part is I GOT IT FOR FREE!!!! With 99k miles. I had to put about $1500 for various things (water pump, alternator, all hoses, align and balance, A/C leak, and a few other age related things) over 2-3 years but thats not all that bad to keep it running for 40k+ miles.

nematode · February 2001

Well thats where I disagree. I think the BMW is at least 25% better. Having a 5spd, HID, better suspension, quieter, better brakes, and better seats makes it at least 25% better. The fact that I think it also looks better put it over the top for me. $7000 represents 1 extra year of saving for a car for people looking in the $25-35k range. Thats not so bad unless you are leasing in which case it could be painful. Remember my comaprison is the 325xi to the Bean or VDC. When the H6 GT Wagon comes out my opnion could change and probably will. I still cant believe that Subaru did not make a 5spd available and HID an option on the VDC. Its crazy.

However, its is smaller, does not have the bullet proof AWD system (or a history of it), will cost more to maintain (about double), and will increase your snob factor.

FrankMc · February 2001

"You can't eat the atmosphere". You pay extra for the "prestige" of BMW. Some people feel that it is worth it, however there are many people that don't. All the BMW owners I know [non-permissible content removed] about the cost of repairs ("They see the BMW badge and double the price" is one comment I have received). However, that's the fun part of the process, there are plenty of choices and everyone tries to get the best one for themselves.
Frank

hondafriek · February 2001

well Sudhir, I have to admit the price was right, two of my friends have 97s one wagon one sedan, both junk, the wagon rides like a buckboard rear suspension has no give and they are all like that I have ridden in several and all the same, the sedan going over regular road irregularities you would think the front end is going to fall out of it he was going to upgrade to a new 2000 and found it to be exactly the same so even after being offered a price he found hard to pass up he is buying a new Accord at the end of March.I had two Fords a 78 fairmont bought new not a bad car, then an 86 Topaz bought cheap at one year old with 11000 miles absolute total horror any thing that could break did and usually more than once took an absolute killing money wise just to get rid of the thing.
Cheers Pat.

armac13 · February 2001

Many years ago I had both a Renault 16 and a BMW 2002. I decided to change spark plug wires the same day on both - original equipment. Renault $18 and change, BMW $97 and change. 'Nuf said. BTW I bought both used and the BMW was much nicer to drive both days it ran properly. It was the ultimate money pit. The only car I ever had with worse reliability was the only GM I ever bought - and that one was new - but that's another story.

Ross

lucien2 · February 2001

HA HA! EVERY '02 owner I know does his or her own work. It is, as a say, a joy to drive, but the cost of ownership has converted them all into shade tree mechanics. Luckily, it is super-easy to work on...as long as one avoids putting a foot through the rusted out rocker panels.

Pat- My '87 Tempo was a horror, too. I am convinced it was hexed. It was finally totalled by a one-two punch in the same month- an unlicenced, uninsured dump truck followed by an uninsured homicidal maniac in a full size Chevy truck. Both drivers got traffic tickets for causing the accident. Then State Farm cancelled my insurance.

OTOH, my dad's '87 Sable was great. Traded it for a 1989 Merkur Scorpio, which is still on the road too.

sasmith95 · February 2001

I am debating between an Outback and a GT Wagon. Personally, I like the looks of the GT better, I'm not really in love with the 2-tone deal, but I want a 5 speed, and it is easier to get a 5 speed Outback in my area than the GT. I'd have to order the GT. My question is, is there any real difference between the 2, besides looks, which should make me care which of the 2 I buy? Any feedback would be appreciated.

ateixeira · February 2001

The press loves BMWs, particularly 3-series cars, and that helps create the "aura" around them.

But they are mortal. A co-worker has had to special order THREE alloy rims because the originals bent in DC's pot-holed streets. Simple oil changes approach $100! Insurance rates are pretty high for him, too.

Also, they are tight inside. The straight-6 eats into legroom, big time. Never mind the 3-series, even the 5 series wagon is a COMPACT CAR! Heck, the Ford Focus wagon is a mid-size! You may get more "sport", but you get less room.

They also nickel-and-dime you. They tease you with a $27k starting price, but get a wagon with AWD, leather, moonroof, metallic paint, sports package (and why else would you BUY a BMW?), and it's more like mid $30's.

I think the WRX will steal BMW shoppers on a budget. It costs $17 grand less than an S4 Avant. $11 grand less than that 325xi, never mind the 330xi (sedan only).

How does the VDC compare? I don't think it does. They are quite different.

What about the WRX? Well, just wait 'til you see it in person. It's a lot more refined than you might think. Idle was quiet, composed. It's much roomier than you think (wagon especially) and looks better in person than in photos which always seem to zoom in on the headlights.

If you don't like the feel of a 5 speed (any 5 speed), keep in mind you can swap shift levers, get urethane bushings, and even change the tranny oil to synthetic.

I'd tend to think that a little brake squeel first thing in the AM is normal. Rotors get a film of rust very quickly. If it's just right when you start driving, it's OK. If it continues to squeel, I'd have it looked at.

-juice

k6ncx · February 2001

I drove nothing. There was no point, since the car was obviously not acceptable. I merely put the driver's seat where I would need to put it in order to drive.

No, I'm not absolutely sure it was an O/B built on a Legacy. I'm not sure I even knew there were two different Outbacks, or that the people at the dealership understood that. I asked to see an Outback, I looked at the only one they had, I think I remember seeing Legacy on the back but maybe I'm remembering one I drove behind that day, who knows? I commented on the issue of the back seats and they didn't say I should come back another time and look at the OTHER Outback.

Is the one you just returned from the trip in the current model?

ateixeira · February 2001

I found this very, VERY interesting.

Quoting from the BMW motorcylce brochure:

"by its very design, the Boxer carries its weight low in the chassis for an improved center of gravity and better balance."

My favorite part is that they capitalized Boxer! Like it deserves a higher level of respect!

Boxer engines rule! Even BMW says so!

-juice

kmclean · February 2001

better check to see that someone didn't steal your O/B during the night and replace it with a Volvo!

Juice - I've had a number of Bimmer owners say the same thing that boat owners say: their two happiest days with the Bimmer were the day they bought it and the day they sold it.

Ken M. (in sunny Seattle)

ateixeira · February 2001

BMWs are sweet. Some of the best motorcycles in the world!

HA HA HA, I amuse myself. OK, I'll stop now.

-juice

hondafriek · February 2001

Want a laugh on one of the frequent trips I made to the dealer with that bloody Topaz I was complainig that my 83 Accord with over 200,000 kilometers was way more reliable than this Topaz with like 15,000, the sales managers comment was you cannot compare a Topaz with an Accord the Topaz is a throwaway car his words. this was at a Ford dealership,
Cheers Pat.

ateixeira · February 2001

Those cars depreciated like crazy. In two years they weren't worth anything. In fact I think they were the worst models in resale value.

-juice

miksmi · February 2001

Hi Sarah,

Re: sasmith95 Feb 7, 2001 10:16am -- Ha! This is my favorite subject

My wife and I also compared the Outback and GT wagon. Outback has 1" higher clearance, GT has a "sport-tuned" (stiffer) suspension. Note the cosmetic differences like fabric (wife disliked Outback's) and GT monochromatic exterior vs. Outback two-tone body side cladding (resists dings). GT and Outback Limited have two moonroofs; Outback has none. I didn't think I'd care for a moonroof but it's nice to have a skylight to brighten a dreary winter or rainy day. Other than Outback's overhead sunglass holder and rear 12-volt power outlet, GT can be configured with the same features of the Outback. I took Outback brochure, added a column for GT features, and noted the standard and optional items as my wife read the Legacy brochure.

I had wanted the Legacy L but my wife talked me up to the GT and I'm glad she did. I was never into wheels until I saw the aluminum alloy wheels of the GT; they're sweet. The GT's "sport-tuned" suspension handles the twisties very nicely. Unfortunately it's her car so I only get to drive it when I buy groceries.

Ordering is great for getting exactly what you want and paying for nothing more. Click on my profile for details.

To help me further assist, what's more important to you, slightly higher clearance for light off-roading and perhaps deep snow or a "funner" drive (i.e., where will you be driving -- urban, rural, off-road)? Feel free to ask more questions.

..Mike Smith . 00 GT wagon . Silver Spring MD USA

hondafriek · February 2001

Juice, resale nothing you almost had to pay somebody to take it off your hands.
Cheers Pat.

francophile · February 2001

Mikesmi, in Post 515 says he only gets the car for grocery runs. That must have some grocery run out there on the racetrack! I'd love to hear the excuse you used for that!

nematode, yes I guess we will have to disagree. I've owned a BMW (the famous 2002, a 1968 model I purchased in 1971), and I just finished shopping for cars and my list included the 3 series. My dollar sense just can't wrap itself around the Bimmer's price tag, not for what they give you. I doubt they're the unreliable dogs folks here are trying to make them out to be; my 2002 wasn't bad. But it sure did cost a fortune for parts (I did my own labor), and that hasn't changed. The 'mystique' surrounding Bimmers extends to the sales and service departments, where prices are high; the salesguy I talked to wouldn't even bother to discuss anything besides full list price. This for a car with a teeny back seat, bad paint unless you pay them extra for 'premium' colors, and a clutch that is so hard to engage smoothly the salesman warned me about it before we left and I *still* stalled it. The motor is nice, the steering and suspension are nice, and oh boy is it a pretty thing to look at. But I can't justify the price premium. Oh by the way, I also figured in resale value when I was pricing things out. I don't remember the exact numbers, and for sure a 3-year-old Bimmer was worth more than a similar Legacy. But in pure dollars the Bimmer dropped more; just another check in the minus column.

Cheers,
-wdb

dsackman · February 2001

Neil,

Your profile is very skimpy, so I can not provide you more specific details pertaining to your details. In brief though, here is the low-down:

There are two basic Outback models.

One is based on the Impreza and this is called the "Outback Sport". This car is a small hatch-back type car with a 2.2l motor. Small being the operative word.

The Outback proper is based on the Legacy platform and is about the same length as the Jeep Grand Cherokee. Quite sizable. The Outback is available in a few flavours, mainly a wagon body with either a 2.5l or a 3.0l motor in Limited, L.L. Bean or VDC derivatives. There is also a funky Outback Sedan based on the Legacy platform, the one I bought about two weeks ago. This car is somewhat larger than a Honda Accord.

It was with the Outback Sedan we drove about 1,000 miles in two days with four regular sized adults.

I would suggest you have a look here on this Edmunds site, the Subaru site (Subaru.com) to see what the various options are. I would then further suggest you go to a different dealer who will be able to assist you. The Subaru experience is a worthwhile experience and the effort will be worth your while.

Daniel
2001 Forester S+ Auto
2001 Outback Sedan

miksmi · February 2001

Re: francophile Feb 7, 2001 1:02pm

LOL! WDB you busted me. Copy and paste buffoonery from an old post I dug up. Still, the GT's not my daily driver unlike you, my friend

And I oogled over the GT long before the track bug bit me. Oh man I'm still snickering. Man you guys cut me 0 slack (as you should).

..Mike

k6ncx · February 2001

Well, I'm not sure that putting a lot of details about myself in a profile would change or would have changed the scenario.

If the operative word for the "other" Outback is small, then this must have been the "real" Outback wagon. It wasn't short overall, and it had an IMPRESSIVE amount of cargo room in the back. Lots and lots. It almost could have been used as a hearse - at least for short dead people. I was just mystified why those still living and trying to sit in the rear seat weren't afforded the benefit of a few inches of it.

Ah, re-reading, I see that it was the Outback sedan that was OK with 4 adults. I guess that must be the difference. Dunno. Just know that I've tried to benefit from info here and Consumer Reports, and only spend time going to look at (let alone test drive) models that I think might satisfy. If I had known, I wouldn't have bothered to drive all the way over to the Subaru dealer. So maybe my observation can benefit someone else. Maybe not. It's just one datapoint.

By the way: I can't get any info from the Subaru website (at least not from this computer) because they have decided to rely entirely on Shockwave, which I don't have installed. Just as I think they made an odd and unfortunate design decision with the back seat, I think they made one with thge website. Maybe I'm wrong, and they'll sell a million Outback wagons and win a Nobel Prize for the website.

kens · February 2001

Mike,

I was reading a Legacy L vs. GT topic in the i-club Legacy forum and came across the point that only difference between the L and GT suspension was a fatter rear sway bar. Do you know if this is right? I was always under the impression that the GT had more differences like stiffer shocks.

Ken

hondafriek · February 2001

I do not have a lot of experience concerning BMW.what I do know is that all the models during the 80s IE. 318 and 325 had a separate oil filter element not a cartridge type ,you had to undo the casing take out the old element fish the old gasket out of the housing on the block and then make sure the casing was all lined up properly on reassembly or you would have the mother of all oil leaks, consequently none of the fast lube places around here would do an oil change in fact the only place you could get an oil change was at the dealers, thats if you were unable to do it yourself.
Cheers Pat.

aussieroo · February 2001

fit a square peg into a round hole.

cheers

gus

dsackman · February 2001

originalbitman · February 2001

Rented an Outback bought a GT wagon. Fun to drive and nice to look at. Get the 5 speed.

Nice review:

http://www.epinions.com/auto-review-7412-BACE6BB-39C393E8-prod1

bit

miksmi · February 2001

kens Feb 7, 2001 2:46pm
Ken, I read the thread you provided. I can't confirm the GT has stiffer struts than the L, just always believed the marketing literature

I've asked Patti for an answer. As you know she fell and can't type so I'll wait before I ask the question again.

Here we are, back with the GT suspension question again.

..Mike

croc · February 2001

I have a 99 Outback I purchased new and have had the following maladies with this "extremely reliable and first rate product"

1) Dashboard re-tightened and spacers added due to factory not installing properly.
2) Windshield replaced due to factory not sealing properly (water leaks).
3) Heat shield replaced on exhaust
4) Clutch replaced-all except flywheel-dealer said it was like new because I "really must know how to drive a standard" HUH?
5) Air conditioner condenser replaced due to oil leak
6) Short block replaced because of piston slap

When pressed the dealer admitted they are seeing more and more problems with the Phase 1 2.5 litre engine and the clutches in 97-99 Outbacks and Foresters. I saw 3 blocks laying on the floor of the shop when I picked my "little dream" up.

How many kilometres do you think I have on this piece of .....?

If you guessed 37,052 you win!!!
I will never buy another Subaru product again and will tell everyone but my worst enemies to do likewise.

Good luck to all of you!!

lucien2 · February 2001

Well Croc, sorry you got a lemon, shoulda gotten in touch with SoC, I think they would have taken care of you. I have a '99 OB also, which I drive the hell out of. It has 23K on it now, and hasn't been to the shop at all for anything. Not once. Ever. Well, except oil changes. Surely you aren't suggesting the cars in general are pieces of ***, because the data compiled by Consumer Reports on the car suggests your case is an isolated one.

BMW-
I never said they were unreliable. I think they're great cars that are quite reliable when properly maintained. I did say the cost of running one was high. Those 2002 owners are shadetree mechanics only because dealer visits are too $$, not because the cars left 'em stranded. The thing with Bimmers and Audis is maintenance. Preventative maintenance must be done to keep them reliable; you can't abuse 'em and expect 'em to keep going, like a Honda.

Tempo/Topaz-
The day that car left was the best thing that ever happened to me, car-wise.

ateixeira · February 2001

Loosh: you mean you don't change your own oil? ;-)

croc: sorry about your experience, but you can't think that all Soobs are like that. We've had 4 in the family, the oldest was sold to my cousin's nephew (with 150k miles and counting), so technically all are still with us.

Two of them are the Phase Is you talk about, and neither has ever had a single break down or failure in 70k miles combined. Routine maintenance only.

Ken/Mike: one important difference from the L to the GT is the final drive ratio. The GT's is shorter (numerically higher), so it will accelerate faster and allow for bigger diameter tires.

I had once thought that if you were going to swap the suspension and wheels for autocross, it may be better to start with an L, but it'll end up being slower.

-juice

hondafriek · February 2001

Juice, are you clarevoyant, you know read peoples minds, I opened Ebmunds this morning to ask about the final drive ratio in the GT. versus outback, GT has 55 series tires while outback has 60 series my question given the small difference in tire size is the final drive different between the two.
Cheers Pat.

ateixeira · February 2001

It goes beyond that, though.

The GT and Outback both have 4.11 to 1 final drive ratios. The GT's tires are 7% smaller in diameter, so it is effectively geared shorter for acceleration.

The Legacy L is a whole other story. It's final drive is somewhere around 3.93 to 1 (IIRC), so it's geared 4.4% taller to begin with. The tires are a bit smaller in diameter compared to the GT (by 0.8%), so the net effect is 3.6% taller gearing.

Hence in theory the GT would be quickest, then L, then Outback. But then you'd have to factor in weight...

-juice

hondafriek · February 2001

Juice if the Gt. and outback both have the same final drive how do they compensate for speedometer error?
Cheers Pat.

ateixeira · February 2001

Good question. I wonder if they are fly-by-wire and controlled buy the ECU, or cable type. Anyone know?

I'm sure the speedos are corrected. 7% is a lot of error.

-juice

bg18947 · February 2001

Don't forget the Viscous LS rear differential.

If you're on a limited budget, the L is definitely the better value. You can get a lot of aftermarket parts on your own for a lot cheaper (stereo unit, wheels, tires, springs, sway bar). But, some things you cannot buy easily, mostly fancier gadgets. I bought a GT Ltd because it had the side air bags and I wasn't on a budget. It was the wife's car. The L looks pretty good in certain colors.

francophile · February 2001

The owner of the dealership where I bought my GT drives an '00 L sedan with the factory optional alloys. It's that deep burgundy color. Very nice looking car.

Cheers,
-wdb

hondafriek · February 2001

Well guys after months on these boards asking all sorts of questions and getting all sorts of help,I had decided that our budget would allow a 99 outback LTD. However after much discussion with my other half we have re thought that decision and think we should go new given that this vehicle has to last ten years,
My quandery is now should I buy a new GT wagon or a 2001 Ltd outback demo with 6000 miles for slightly more money I am leaning towards the new GT because I will be the owner from day one and will know how it has been broken and lets face it is nice to have something from brand new,but I also like the thought of all the extra bells and whistles in the outback the stereo the leather ETC. I need help and input guys whats the consenus.
Cheers Pat.

armac13 · February 2001

My personal bias is to go new if at all possible. Part of my reasoning is that many (by no means all) recent model used vehicles were either treated rather cavalierly by the previous owner knowing that he/she was not going to keep it for the long run (read poor maintenance, hard driving, etc.) or it was a problem car (lemon). I realize that sometimes needs change and many people like constant variety, but...

Ross

originalbitman · February 2001

Nothing beats a good break in period and a demo would not have had one. Plus the GT wagon is a great car.

bit

kem1 · February 2001

Well, now I did it, I kicked off a discussion on American vs. Foreign Quality in the Smart Shopper section. Have at it.

phowell1 · February 2001

WhenSubaru make a full size car made to fit American adults I will purchase two for the family but this small stuff is just too small.If you put the seat back enough the the poor guy in the back , well there cant be anyone there no room. The OB needs to be wider and longer and a few inches taller and lower the price to make it compatiable and they would sell like crazy. Local dealer has field full of OBs and will sell them at invoice to anyone wanting one he has many LL Beans, he said he thinks Subaru just simply priced them too high

ccroke · February 2001

My wife and I just purchased a 1998 Outback with Auto. It has 35k on it and it is in mint cond. We paid 16k for it. CR stated that these are reliable cars. Any opinions? We have another 2+ years left on the power train warranty. Should we get the extended? We pick the car up Monday night.

amishra · February 2001

well if depreciation of american cars vs. japanese is any indication of japanese quality .. then the argument is over already

nematode · February 2001

http://hometown.aol.com/fogdoctor

Thought you guys would like to see some pictures of life in Missouri with a Subaru OB Ltd. Its my dog, wifes car, and "somebody" curising above the speed limit. Can you see the PIAA 1000X lamps mounted next to the licence plate? They look goofy but work great.

Juice: If I'm not mistaken, its the evil twin of your dads ride.

I know the quality is horrible but the camera was free and so was the web space. I'll add stuff later and perhaps improve the quality.

grahampeters · February 2001

G'day

What is the dog's name and does he approve of the Subaru?

Cheers

Graham

FrankMc · February 2001

for my Subaru's. I noticed that they send me a number of reminders, it must be a good money maker for them. I am willing to take my chances and so far I am well ahead.

Frank

nematode · February 2001

My dogs name is Kona and he does approve of the Subaru. He gives it his highest rating to date for the following reasons:
1) He gets to go more places because we have more room
2) He get to swim more because we go more places

Then again anything that get him to the lake so he can swim gets a high rating.

ateixeira · February 2001

I guess if you had enough time, you could swap out the L's final drive and even the rear diffy. But even at wholesale, parts cost more when you buy then a la carte. Keep life simple and start with a GT.

nematode: yeah, looks just like my dad's ride!

Pat: pass on the demo. New OBs sell near invoice, so it probably won't save you much anyway.

So I'd focus on which model you want, GT or OB Ltd. The key is how will you drive it? Is it yours or the wife's? Will the owner drive aggressively, or is comfort a priority?

If you will be driving it, aggressively of course, then the GT 5 speed fits the bill. If it's the wife's car, and she wants a cushy ride to get from point A to point B, including some gravel and dirt camping trails, then the choice should be obvious: auto OB Ltd.

-juice

ateixeira · February 2001

Clark: congrats!

The '98s came with a 5/60k powertrain warranty, so you should still be covered for at least two more years, and plenty of miles.

I'd wait and decide as late as possible.

-juice

sugansha · February 2001

Hi,

I've been driving my 2000 Outback Limited (mostly city driving) for about 14000 miles now. For the last few thousand miles (that included an oil change), I've been noticing that after a heavy load drive, like climbing long hills, there's the smell of burnt oil emanating from the front of the car. Nothing looks amiss and the car continues to drive just fine. Normal engine temperature, no check-engine light, no visible fumes, nothing out of the ordinary really. Is this something for me to worry about?

thanks,
--Suresh Raman

kem1 · February 2001

phowell1 (post#540)
"the OB needs to be wider and longer and a few inches taller "

If you need/want something wider, longer, and taller; get a minivan or a big SUV - duh!

Subaru Legacy/Outback

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