OK everyone, tell me if this makes sense to you. I had my local mechanic (not subaru) put the car up on the lift and take a look underneath. He did a few tests while the transmission was engaged in first gear and was able to rule out any problems with the CV joints. (turned tires sharply left and right while stopping rotation on one of the tires) He took all 4 tires off and measured them to make sure that they are all the same size, which they are. He then "just realized" that Subarus have "locking front pausi (sp?)" which requires lubrication. I didn't see him do it, but he told me he added the "appropriate" lubrication up front. He noted it was not one of the items listed on the 30K mile tuneup but should be done once a year. He indicated that this use to be a common problem on older vehicles with rear pausi traction and that it required the same fix. I did a short test drive this evening and didn't notice any of the thumping. I'll do some more extensive driving tomorrow and should know better if it truly worked. Does this make sense to anyone?
The best I can interpret that phrase, I believe he thinks your vehicle has a "posi" or "positraction" (both old school references to today's limited slip differentials) or "limited slip" front differential and therefore added a limited slip additive to the front differential. Your car emphatically does NOT have a limited slip front differential, but I am unsure of the implications of taking this action. I think we established you do have a rear one, however. The limited slip differential (LSD) additive is a friction modifier that I believe is designed to increase friction a bit for common clutch type LSDs. Since there are no clutches in the front diff, this friction would have an unknown effect to me - perhaps of no consequence.
I don't know how well you know this mechanic, but it could be that he simply found it empty (front diff) and filled it for you but wanted what he did to sound a bit more technical. Since you did not check the level yourself, you may have missed a key bit of info about your vehicle - that the 30k service guy forgot to refill the front diff. Or not. It's a bit unfair of me to make that statement as your mechanic may honestly have added an LSD fluid thinking he was right. You should, at the very least, confirm EXACTLY what he did since you do not have a limited slip front differential.
If he somehow opened the center viscous coupling, this could be a problem. But I think these are permanently sealed and this would not be possible. Someone here with knowledge of the VC on the 5 speeds would know.
If all he did was put a friction modifier in your full front diff, I think you'll hear the sounds again as that would not be a cure. Plus you'd have felt the clunk in the steering wheel if the front diff was involved, and when he stopped one front wheel from spinning on the lift, the front diff would have made a clear growling if it was empty or troubled.
At any rate, let us know if you do have the clunk back at some point since you said it was intermittent at times, but I would DEFINITELY clarify exactly what he did and where he added it.
I'm happy to announce that after a ton of research and years of contemplation, I finally made the switch to a new '02 Outback Limited in Black Granite Pearl!
I do have two questions for you experienced Subaru owners however. With little over 400 miles on my beauty, I realize there is a break-in period to entertain. However, my first question is this: For the week I've had the car, 3 times when it has been quite humid and damp after a rainfall (the car has sat overnight) I go to start the vehicle and everything is fine, idle is fine. However, after putting the car into drive and giving the gas, it hesitates to the point it nearly stalls. Has anyone had this experience with a new Outback and what was the solution? I never had this problem with any other new cars I've had.
Second, there seems to be a whistling coming from the stereo perhaps (without it even turned on) when I accellerate on the highway. This may sound odd, but it's something that I simply cannot tolerate one bit. I have good hearing and this just drives me up a wall. Can this be possible on a new car? I know for sure the stereo is off but it really sounds like this high-pitched whistle is coming from the stereo only when I'm accellerating on the highway, anywhere from 60 to 80 mph. But when I let off the gas it dies down. I am sure it is not wind noise. I had an old 81 Buick that did a similar thing but never with the radio off. Any comments?
The hesitation problem that you are encountering is probably the same one that many others have encountered. Subaru rep informed me last April that it was caused by the "oxygenated gas" that refineries switch over to in the spring to help cut back on emissions and that all Subarus will hesitate because of it. I've driven numeorus rental cars in cities all over the US and the only car that I've ever encountered this hesitation problem with is my Subaru.
On the good news side I recently heard that Fuji is finally addressing this issue by making a programming mod for the onboard computer. The EPA needs to certify the mod and then it will be available for installation.
Installation procedure with SOA's current capabilities consists of the onboard computer being removed, sent to SOA's hq's in New Jersey for the program mods to be installed and then returned to the dealer. Usually takes about 2 days.
Hesitation in my car requires either a gentle pumping of the gas pedal or depressing the pedal at least halfway to the floor to get the car to move. In addition to the annoyance factor its also a safety hazard.
Thanks for the input. Although I didn't say so in my post, I thought the same as you --- this is really a safety hazard. In fact, I had pulled out into the street the 2nd time it happened and a car was coming up behind me, had he been any quicker, we probably would have shared some paint. Under normal conditions I would have had no problem pulling into the street but with the situation we are addressing, I was thankful to have luck on my side.
This is an unfortunate issue to have with a new vehicle. I'm hoping that SOA and the EPA finalize their decisions soon.
Thanks for the quick info., I am glad to know that a fix is in the works.
Could it be the fuel pump in the gas tank that you hear?
I know if I sit just right I can hear mine with the stereo off. It is however not coming over the stereo, just a high pitch "whining" noise in the cabin.
Some of you may remember that I was complaining about a sloshing noise a few months ago. I thought maybe it was fuel and others suggested water in the rocker panels. Eventually it went away and now, during our few weeks of dry weather in Vancouver it has not come back so I assume it was water.
On Friday the car was serviced and I mentioned this to the lady at reception (who seemed to know a lot more about cars than your average receptionist). "Oh," she said. "That's probably water in the rocker panel. Some of them have the drain holes blocked by underseal right from the factory".
They said they unblocked them. I looked underneath when I got home and they are all clear. But I never looked before. When the "wet" arrives we'll see.
mwwst: he probably just topped off the gear oil, which is fine. The front diffy shares fluid with the 5 speed manual on 5 speed Subies. In that case, the "appropriate" lube is any 75w90 GL-5 I believe.
Doug's right, though, it's not a limited slip, or a Posi. It's an open diffy.
Water in the rockers is very common on Miatas, too. She was probably right.
Shane: if you are a DIY type of guy, check out the SPG (single point ground) mod that's been widely discussed on i-Club.com. It addresses problems just like yours.
Water in the rockers is surprisingly common on vehicles with sunroofs. This is the most common place to put the drains into. Other than A/C condensation, this is the #1 reason for wet carpet and musty smells.
wmiller4: I took special care today to investigate my noise to and from work. I put the windows up and turned off everything else. The noise exists at lower speeds but is tolerable. But approaching 65 to 80 mph, the noise is a pain to me. You are more correct than me -- it sounds more like a whine than a whistle. In fact, it seems to rev up the faster I go. So this is possibly the fuel pump? Any suggestions or solutions? I hate to think I just have to put up with this noise. I can tolerate other things but a high pitch whining is out of the question for me.
juice and others: thanks for the input about the SPG. I did a quick search but will investigate more tomorrow. I'm not sure I understand this though. The hesitation can be eliminated by grounding something? Why didn't Subaru do this to begin with then?
I don't think the whining as described by Shane is the fuel pump. Fuel pump whine is steady and not RPM dependent. I've got the feeling this is not an electrical whine, but in fact a wind whistle in the same frequency.
If the stereo is off, I cannot see an electrical noise coming through the speakers. Yes, a strong field will create a small bit of noise, but nothing you'd hear at that speed over tire and wind noise. The other hint is that revving in Park does not produce the noise - right? Any whine loud enough to hear over highway noise would be quite loud at rest in park, and revving the engine in park would create the same electrical interference as the engine would at highway speed.
In sum, I suspect this is the roofrack noise I've heard others on this board have trouble tracking down and identifying. Shane, consider removing your crossbars entirely for a few days to see if this is it. I've heard the sound is not like a typical wind whistle for whatever reason, so it may be your culprit.
After 9 months of researching I made the decision to buy a 02 Bean. It was down to the Passat, Acura and the Bean. I was considering a move from Alaska to north Florida and I was very familiar with Subarus. I just completed 5500 miles in four weeks and I can say that I am very happy with the Bean. I had no problems from Seattle to Florida. I got the Subaru from Peninsula Subaru in Washington and the sales person D.J. Daughtery was excellent. If any folks from the Seattle area are looking for a great deal from a person that knows the product and cares, I would recommend D.J. The Bean is not a common car in Florida but living in a rural area it will be right at home on the backroads. The only concern I have is that I also hear a small whine when going above 75 mph. It is not loud but without the stereo on you can hear it. It appears to get worse as the speed increases but does not appear below 70-75. I will follow the discusson on the whine. I have enjoyed this discusson for the past 6 months and appreciate all the help given on the forum. Thanks,
Shane: Subaru does it, but i-Club.com members are pretty fanatic enthusiasts and go to extremes, i.e. higher guage wires, sanding points of contact, etc.
Your symptoms sound like a wheel bearing, though. If it gets louder I'd have that checked out.
Can someone help Chuck? That problem sounds familiar, something with the radio IIRC?
I just purchased a 2002 LLBean yesterday ($1200 cash incentive + special financing = great deal!) and have a question about the gas requirements. My sales guy told me the '02 model requires premium while the '03 will take regular. Has there been a modification to the engine, or has Subaru determined that regular octane is okay for the H6 (and my '02)? Frank
Idahodoug: Just to clarify, I don't have sunroofs. I don't know how water gets into the rocker panels but probably from the windshield drains or somewhere around where the front fender meets the front doors.
I'm having a heck of a time choosng between an '03 Limited w/Automatic and an '03 Bean (using regular gas). Automatic is a must for me as I want my mother to be able to drive it. I can't stand the thought of paying for premium gas.
I know the Bean is heavier and will get less power on regular... any other problem with using regular?
I'd love to hear opinions on which of these cars to get... I haven't own ANY car for the past 17 years and I want to make the right choice.
We have a '95 (has the 2.2L), I just bought a 2003 3.0L. For me, the H4 was a little weak. It certainly would get you where you were going, but I think the frequent downshifts to pass or go up a hill are aestetically ugly. The 3.0 liter is more powerful, and when it does downshipt, less frequently, it doesn't sound like a sewing machine engine. So it may be a matter of taste. (Though I would include that not only do you get the 3 liter engine, you also get moer comfortable leather seats, a CD changer, and lots of other options). The price is higher, but the car is nicer.
The noise I hear is not the roof rack. It is coming from the back area of the wagon. It does increase with speed. What makes me think it's the fuel pump is because it sounds like a fuel pump noise and is the only thing I can think of in that area of the car that would make that kind of noise. I did not realize the fuel pump runs at a constant speed but, that's what I like about the folks on this board. Knowledge!
Could it be the rear differential making the noise? That would increase/decrease with vehicle noise.
With the Outback/Legacy there is a problem if you get dirt buld up in the area immediately in front of the doors. This is particularly apparent if you have been driving on dirt roads.
It needs to be flushed out periodically or you do get a mud build up clogging the drains. Best bet is to aim a fast hose jet into the panel from the open door area and establish whether water flows out from the drains. If not, keep flushing and poke around gently with something like a drinking straw or 4mm sprinkler hose. Once drainage starts, the mud flushes out fairly well. Its a matter of trial and error though and you have to wiggle the hose around to get all the dirt/grit out.
Idahodoug: Did you install Michelin X-Ones on your OB a few months ago? I thought I recalled the post.
If so, how have they worked out so far? Are they significantly quieter than your previous set? Am thinking of picking up a set within the next week or so.
The trip was interesting. We took two vehicles loaded down. We made around 500 miles a day and stopped along the way. We would have made more miles but one of the vehicles was not air conditioned and after about noon it got hot with triple digit heat out west. We now have over 6500 miles on the Bean in six weeks. I am putting on more miles than I like but no problems except the minor whine above 70. After thought, the Bridgestone tires are very hard and will make a move away from them when they get a little more wear on them. Other than that, I am very happy with the Bean. In Florida, you don't see many and that makes them unique. The long drive was very pleasant in the Bean. It was, as one article I read stated, the "vista cruiser" of small wagons. It just keeps eating up the miles. I am also very pleased with the stereo. I had wondered if it would sound inferior compared to the VDC but it is very acceptable. I would like to thank everyone for their help during the past six months while I was trying to decide on what vehicle to purchase. This forum is the best I have encountered. Thanks, Chuck
I have the Ltd (H4) and if I had to do it all over again, I would get the H6 (ESPECIALLY if they are now recommending regular gas). Don't get me wrong, I love my OB - just wish it had a bit more omph. Ron
Here's a method for finding that whine that will require an assistant. You'll think I'm a bit whacked when you read this, but when you do it, you'll get a crazy grin on your face at how well it works and undoubtedly post the results. Ready?
Have someone drive the car while you're in the cargo area with about an 18" section of wooden dowel an inch or so in diameter - similar to the stuff used as hanger poles in closets (no smart aleck comments please :-)) Spend a few minutes simply listening to see if you garner any additional info on the source of your whine.
Then pull up a bit of the carpet so you can place one end of the dowel directly on the steel floor. Place your ear on the other end (make an "OK" sign atop it so you have a bit of pad in case of a bump) and you'll suddenly hear a symphony of noises loud and clear. When the driver lifts off the gas, you'll clearly hear the change in rear diff pitch, you'll likely hear the fuel pump, you'll hear the wheel bearings, etc. With this amplification, you may be able to tell what the sound is. If you have a trim piece atop the shock mount like my Legacy, you can pop this off as well and compare the sounds from the right and left side which will give you a clear indicator if it's the wheel bearing on one side. Placing the dowel against a piece of hard ceiling trim will get the wind noise, too.
Wood is a natural transmitter of noise, and I've used this to quickly track engine noises and it's a very old trick used for decades. On an engine, listening to the noises put out in turn by the alternator, valves, main block bearings and other things just by touching them is truly a marvel. You should try this just for grins, but obviously keep away from things that will jam that dowel into your grey matter.
So, give it a shot. Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with the lumber industry, and will get no benefit from the hundreds of feet of dowel about to be purchased by Subaru owners. Also, driving unrestrained in the cargo area has its dangers, though you are allowed to drool uncontrollably and make nose prints on the glass.
I've had the X1's on for about 500 miles now. Truthfully, most would not note these differences and I'm obviously able to compare them only with the OEM tires that I took off it rather than having a proper comparo involving multiple tire sets of different brands.
Having said that, I have a vehicle development background, and find them to be exceedingly quiet and smooth above all characteristics exhibited. They are extremely round and thus contribute zero suspension input at highway speed (this is surprisingly not the case with all tire brands, and Michelin is known for this quality). I have charged a couple entrance ramps and they seem to handle quite neutrally with no quirks when I hit expansion joints or bumps at high G's. This reminds me that they do quite well with those repetitive expansion joints at freeway speeds - reducing a bit of the suspension jounce I felt with the OEM tires.
I was going to run them for the winter as well, though I have not driven a vehicle in winter without specific winter tires in nearly a decade. But Cptpilot on this board noted that they were not as grippy on snow as he expected, so today the Michelin Arctic Alpins will be in at the tire shop and I'll have them mounted on some spare rims for winter use.
I have not driven them in the wet, but Michelin's own website shows greater wet grip on the X1 than their specific rain tire, the RainForce. I don't know why this is so, but the X1 is a premium tire and uses a new silica based rubber compound that would be expected to do well on wet surfaces.
So, very good ratings with no shortcomings save they seem to get rocks stuck in the tread easily, and throw them back out at inopportune moments.
I know it's only for the US market (now), but I wouldn't be surprised if Australia gets it in the near future. I know you folks have a lot of car-based pickups down under. I would think the Baja would be a welcome addition to the Aussie lineup. Do you agree?
I have a different opnion. We have a 2k OB Ltd. ....If I had it all over again I would still get the H4 over the H6. I have driven both and I just dont think the H6 is worth the money. If it were a $500 option....perhaps but even then its probably a draw. Why you ask? 1) I dont think the H6 is making 208 or 212hp or anywhere close. It acts like its in the 180hp range. Its either not making the power claimed or has a crummy power band and/or transmission. Either way I'm not impressed with the engine. I brought this up quite a while ago after my first test drive and now you can read Edmunds most recent review (Highlander -vs- VDC -vs- Rendezous) where they basically say the same thing. Dont get me wrong it is better under certain conditions than the H4..like short merges and lightly smoother power delivery. BUT I'm talking about value. City driving, highway driving, most driving there is really no difference. The H6 may also be more quiet after 75mph but having driven the Bean for 2 weeks its marginal. Perhaps the VDC is more quiet but I only drove that once and cannot remember. Its not like the H4 is loud......The 2.0L in my Protege ES is loud. Mostly what I hear in both the Ltd and the Bean is wind noise at 70mph. 2) The transmission is no better than the one in the H4 and still hunts for gears (although significantly less). 3) The price difference is between $3000-5000 over the price of a H4. The same car we have can be taken home for $24.5k. The Bean sells for $27k and the VDC for $30k. Its value I'm looking for here. 4) I dont want VDC. At least I want a way to turn it off. My wife does not like all the 2 tone stuff and badges in the Bean.
We were fully planning on trading in my wifes Ltd. for the VDC after its first model year but those plans are on hold. I just think dont its a good value. A nice car, but not a good value. In their current form if the Bean was $26k and the VDC $27k they would be more interesting. Once you reach $30-35k range the Highlander and Pilot just offer more. That price is also really close to offerings from VW, BMW, Audi, Volvo, and the new generation of SAABs.
This discussion of the H6 vs the H4 is interesting to me. My husband prefers the OB and we were thinking that the H6 was probably the only logical way we could go with it. But if you are saying that there isn't much difference in power, I'm a bit worried. We commute from 6,000 feet to sea level every day and have long uphill grades at freeway speeds. Many cars can't maintain their speed on these grades, so I was assuming that the H6 would have more power to keep its speed up without gear hunting in an AT. Am I assuming too much?
I've never driven the H6 but I can compare my 2000 OB to a 2002 FWD V6 highlander. I still like the smooth ride of my OB(I wanted the Forester at the time but the ride of the OB was definitely smoother.)
My girlfriend just bought the 2002 FWD V6 Highlander. Compared to the 2.5 OB, the Toyota is much more responsive than my car(city streets or freeway). I also wanted the 2.5 for gas mileage. I get 24 city/highway. the Toyota gets 22 city/highway. Overall, I think they're both great SUV's.
P.S. Does anybody know if the 2003 Foresters have a smoother ride compared to the 2002 and/or is it closer to the OB yet???
It should be a little more quiet and refined, but I'm not sure how different the ride will be. They have retuned shocks, but the spring rates are probably similar.
There really isn't a heck of a lot of difference in the *feeling* of power. Yes, the H6 *IS* more powerful, but the difference is felt more at highway speeds, or if you floor it. Around town, the H4 and H6 feel similar. The H6 is certainly nicer, and a more refined engine, than the H4.
I would suggest that you go out a drive both—back-to-back, and then decide for yourself.
Remember, there's only a 500cc difference in engine size, despite having two extra cylinders. That's not a heck of a lot of size difference.
Thanks everybody for your comments on the Limited (H4) vs the Bean (H6).
I think the fact that I have to pay extra to get an automatic on the Limited reduces the price difference between the two cars. Also, the Bean clearly is a bit more plush... and my decision isn't entirely about money.
I do agree that, in my test drives, the Bean didn't feel like 212 hp... so I'm still sceptical as to whether I'll get much more "oomph" vs the Limited when I run the Bean on regular.
I'm still basically undecided, but I'm currently leaning toward getting the Bean. Wish they had a better automatic though... I never hear any glowing comments about the automatic.
I test drove one with my wife. When we swapped drivers, she tried to "start" the engine, not realizing is was already running. It's so hushed you may not notice.
Do drive both but get on a highway and punch it and sample the 50-70 acceleration, i.e. typical passing speeds.
We found the H4 fine with the manual. If the H6 was offered with a manual, we probably would have sprung for that, though.
The only problem with the automatic, is that it is a 4-speed unit. I know they're working on a 5-speed automatic, but that won't likely debut until MY2004, when an all-new Outback is to be released.
The current automatic is fine. The gear ratios are well-chosen and it is very durable and trouble-free.
I know that the OB is the big hitter for Subaru AND Subaru likes evolution instead of revolution but if it was me making the call: 1) The H6 would have been 3.5L. The target would be a real 240-260hp. 2) It would have made its debut the GT sedan/wagon first. Detuned versions setup for better low end torque would have followed as standard equipment the OB. 3) Manual available immediately. 5 or 6 spd...which ever would fit better. 4) 5spd auto like everyone else. 5) VDC would be standard in the GT and OB with a defeat button.
Mountain Gal, For now we ‘commute’ the other direction, from the city up to play in the Sierra’s. The 2.5L, 4 cylinder, 5-speed will climb any US mountain highway in 4th gear at 70+ mph with no trouble, even with 5 adults. In fact, it will climb most mountain highways in 5th. I don’t ever find myself without enough power, even at 7500 ft., and I don’t find many people passing me on an uphill either. I cannot comment as for the auto.
The Diamante was a pretty well insulated vehicle, so it would not be surprising to find it much quieter than the OB. Wagon bodystyles are also much more difficult to quiet due to the rear area being open to your ears rather than being sealed off like a sedan.
In '97 I test drove an OB Wagon and found it unacceptably loud in the rear seats. Ironically, 5 years later I find myself owning a '97 Legacy Wagon and was puzzled to find it quieter than I remembered. In trying to find a place to mount some cargo hooks, I discovered why. From '96 to '97 Subaru added over an inch of insulation to the cargo floor. So I'm not going crazy I guess. This is up for debate, of course....
At any rate, Michelin is the gold standard in tires unless you're in a specialist category like studded winter mud tires, or 35 series performance rubber.
Thanks for the info - your experience is just what I was looking for. I have been leaning toward the MT and the H4 but an auto would be nice. If you commute to the Sierras you would understand my commute pretty well. I live in Frazier Park above the Grapevine and I work in West LA. Which is why I was thinking that while an auto would be nice for the I405 mess, it might not be good for the rest of it - I managed to go through 2 Nissan auto trannys (4 banger pickup) in a year! And why I wonder if the H6 and auto would work or if I should stick with the MT.
We spent our 2 week vacation in and around Silverthorne, CO (9,000 feet and higher) and I've never seen so many Subarus in one place. They had to have been the single most common vehicle brand there - at least it seemed to be that way. A significant number were the 'Base H4' models and I do not recall seeing any struggling up long uphill grades.
They'll get 240hp out of that engine, I bet. A 5 speed would be great.
Check out the crossover comparo Edmunds just did - the tranny was the sore spot for the Soob. Though I'll make several observations:
* they said torque peaks at 6000rpm, it's 4400 * they said no roadside assistance, you get 3 years * they said no multiple 12 volt outlets, you get 2 * they said no CD changer, 2003s get one standard
It was a close race so those 4 things could have tied them up, IMO.
Still, the VDC won every single performance measure, got the best mileage, and costs the least in the real world (with all vehicles equipped the same). Not a bad showing.
Does anyone know if the bolt patterns and offset are the same on the OB and Forester? I have a set of 15" Forester L wheels and Blizzaks for my '01 Forester S. I'm considering a set of dedicated winter tires/wheels for my wife's '02 Outback, but I don't want to use anything other than Subaru wheels, if possible. I want to maintain as close to the same overall diameter as possible, for ground clearance and speedometer accuracy. I'd consider another set of Forester L wheels if they'd fit. BTW, Tire Rack recommends the stock size (225-60-16) tire and wheel, but I'm not interested in their steel wheels. Thanks in advance.
Comments
Thanks,
Dan
Thanks,
APH/mwwst
Alland
I don't know how well you know this mechanic, but it could be that he simply found it empty (front diff) and filled it for you but wanted what he did to sound a bit more technical. Since you did not check the level yourself, you may have missed a key bit of info about your vehicle - that the 30k service guy forgot to refill the front diff. Or not. It's a bit unfair of me to make that statement as your mechanic may honestly have added an LSD fluid thinking he was right. You should, at the very least, confirm EXACTLY what he did since you do not have a limited slip front differential.
If he somehow opened the center viscous coupling, this could be a problem. But I think these are permanently sealed and this would not be possible. Someone here with knowledge of the VC on the 5 speeds would know.
If all he did was put a friction modifier in your full front diff, I think you'll hear the sounds again as that would not be a cure. Plus you'd have felt the clunk in the steering wheel if the front diff was involved, and when he stopped one front wheel from spinning on the lift, the front diff would have made a clear growling if it was empty or troubled.
At any rate, let us know if you do have the clunk back at some point since you said it was intermittent at times, but I would DEFINITELY clarify exactly what he did and where he added it.
IdahoDoug
I do have two questions for you experienced Subaru owners however. With little over 400 miles on my beauty, I realize there is a break-in period to entertain. However, my first question is this: For the week I've had the car, 3 times when it has been quite humid and damp after a rainfall (the car has sat overnight) I go to start the vehicle and everything is fine, idle is fine. However, after putting the car into drive and giving the gas, it hesitates to the point it nearly stalls. Has anyone had this experience with a new Outback and what was the solution? I never had this problem with any other new cars I've had.
Second, there seems to be a whistling coming from the stereo perhaps (without it even turned on) when I accellerate on the highway. This may sound odd, but it's something that I simply cannot tolerate one bit. I have good hearing and this just drives me up a wall. Can this be possible on a new car? I know for sure the stereo is off but it really sounds like this high-pitched whistle is coming from the stereo only when I'm accellerating on the highway, anywhere from 60 to 80 mph. But when I let off the gas it dies down. I am sure it is not wind noise. I had an old 81 Buick that did a similar thing but never with the radio off. Any comments?
Thanks!
Shane.
The hesitation problem that you are encountering is probably the same one that many others have encountered. Subaru rep informed me last April that it was caused by the "oxygenated gas" that refineries switch over to in the spring to help cut back on emissions and that all Subarus will hesitate because of it. I've driven numeorus rental cars in cities all over the US and the only car that I've ever encountered this hesitation problem with is my Subaru.
On the good news side I recently heard that Fuji is finally addressing this issue by making a programming mod for the onboard computer. The EPA needs to certify the mod and then it will be available for installation.
Installation procedure with SOA's current capabilities consists of the onboard computer being removed, sent to SOA's hq's in New Jersey for the program mods to be installed and then returned to the dealer. Usually takes about 2 days.
Hesitation in my car requires either a gentle pumping of the gas pedal or depressing the pedal at least halfway to the floor to get the car to move. In addition to the annoyance factor its also a safety hazard.
Vince
Thanks for the input. Although I didn't say so in my post, I thought the same as you --- this is really a safety hazard. In fact, I had pulled out into the street the 2nd time it happened and a car was coming up behind me, had he been any quicker, we probably would have shared some paint. Under normal conditions I would have had no problem pulling into the street but with the situation we are addressing, I was thankful to have luck on my side.
This is an unfortunate issue to have with a new vehicle. I'm hoping that SOA and the EPA finalize their decisions soon.
Thanks for the quick info., I am glad to know that a fix is in the works.
Shane.
I know if I sit just right I can hear mine with the stereo off.
It is however not coming over the stereo, just a high pitch
"whining" noise in the cabin.
On Friday the car was serviced and I mentioned this to the lady at reception (who seemed to know a lot more about cars than your average receptionist). "Oh," she said. "That's probably water in the rocker panel. Some of them have the drain holes blocked by underseal right from the factory".
They said they unblocked them. I looked underneath when I got home and they are all clear. But I never looked before. When the "wet" arrives we'll see.
Doug's right, though, it's not a limited slip, or a Posi. It's an open diffy.
Water in the rockers is very common on Miatas, too. She was probably right.
Shane: if you are a DIY type of guy, check out the SPG (single point ground) mod that's been widely discussed on i-Club.com. It addresses problems just like yours.
-juice
IdahoDoug
juice and others: thanks for the input about the SPG. I did a quick search but will investigate more tomorrow. I'm not sure I understand this though. The hesitation can be eliminated by grounding something? Why didn't Subaru do this to begin with then?
Thanks to all.
Shane.
If the stereo is off, I cannot see an electrical noise coming through the speakers. Yes, a strong field will create a small bit of noise, but nothing you'd hear at that speed over tire and wind noise. The other hint is that revving in Park does not produce the noise - right? Any whine loud enough to hear over highway noise would be quite loud at rest in park, and revving the engine in park would create the same electrical interference as the engine would at highway speed.
In sum, I suspect this is the roofrack noise I've heard others on this board have trouble tracking down and identifying. Shane, consider removing your crossbars entirely for a few days to see if this is it. I've heard the sound is not like a typical wind whistle for whatever reason, so it may be your culprit.
Regards,
IdahoDoug
Thanks,
Your symptoms sound like a wheel bearing, though. If it gets louder I'd have that checked out.
Can someone help Chuck? That problem sounds familiar, something with the radio IIRC?
-juice
Greg
Frank
The knock sensor basically retards the ignition timing slightly, so no harm is done to the engine, but a little power is lost.
Most people could not feel the difference, to be honest. Subaru has not changed the engine for 2003.
-juice
I know the Bean is heavier and will get less power on regular... any other problem with using regular?
I'd love to hear opinions on which of these cars to get... I haven't own ANY car for the past 17 years and I want to make the right choice.
Also, should I be considering an '02?
When you began shopping, were you looking for a near-luxury car (H6) or just a mainstream car (H4)?
-juice
Could it be the rear differential making the noise? That would increase/decrease with vehicle noise.
-juice
With the Outback/Legacy there is a problem if you get dirt buld up in the area immediately in front of the doors. This is particularly apparent if you have been driving on dirt roads.
It needs to be flushed out periodically or you do get a mud build up clogging the drains. Best bet is to aim a fast hose jet into the panel from the open door area and establish whether water flows out from the drains. If not, keep flushing and poke around gently with something like a drinking straw or 4mm sprinkler hose. Once drainage starts, the mud flushes out fairly well. Its a matter of trial and error though and you have to wiggle the hose around to get all the dirt/grit out.
Cheers
Graham
If so, how have they worked out so far? Are they significantly quieter than your previous set? Am thinking of picking up a set within the next week or so.
I would like to thank everyone for their help during the past six months while I was trying to decide on what vehicle to purchase. This forum is the best I have encountered.
Thanks,
Chuck
-juice
Don't get me wrong, I love my OB - just wish it had a bit more omph.
Ron
Here's a method for finding that whine that will require an assistant. You'll think I'm a bit whacked when you read this, but when you do it, you'll get a crazy grin on your face at how well it works and undoubtedly post the results. Ready?
Have someone drive the car while you're in the cargo area with about an 18" section of wooden dowel an inch or so in diameter - similar to the stuff used as hanger poles in closets (no smart aleck comments please :-)) Spend a few minutes simply listening to see if you garner any additional info on the source of your whine.
Then pull up a bit of the carpet so you can place one end of the dowel directly on the steel floor. Place your ear on the other end (make an "OK" sign atop it so you have a bit of pad in case of a bump) and you'll suddenly hear a symphony of noises loud and clear. When the driver lifts off the gas, you'll clearly hear the change in rear diff pitch, you'll likely hear the fuel pump, you'll hear the wheel bearings, etc. With this amplification, you may be able to tell what the sound is. If you have a trim piece atop the shock mount like my Legacy, you can pop this off as well and compare the sounds from the right and left side which will give you a clear indicator if it's the wheel bearing on one side. Placing the dowel against a piece of hard ceiling trim will get the wind noise, too.
Wood is a natural transmitter of noise, and I've used this to quickly track engine noises and it's a very old trick used for decades. On an engine, listening to the noises put out in turn by the alternator, valves, main block bearings and other things just by touching them is truly a marvel. You should try this just for grins, but obviously keep away from things that will jam that dowel into your grey matter.
So, give it a shot. Disclaimer: I have no affiliation with the lumber industry, and will get no benefit from the hundreds of feet of dowel about to be purchased by Subaru owners. Also, driving unrestrained in the cargo area has its dangers, though you are allowed to drool uncontrollably and make nose prints on the glass.
Regards,
IdahoDoug
I've had the X1's on for about 500 miles now. Truthfully, most would not note these differences and I'm obviously able to compare them only with the OEM tires that I took off it rather than having a proper comparo involving multiple tire sets of different brands.
Having said that, I have a vehicle development background, and find them to be exceedingly quiet and smooth above all characteristics exhibited. They are extremely round and thus contribute zero suspension input at highway speed (this is surprisingly not the case with all tire brands, and Michelin is known for this quality). I have charged a couple entrance ramps and they seem to handle quite neutrally with no quirks when I hit expansion joints or bumps at high G's. This reminds me that they do quite well with those repetitive expansion joints at freeway speeds - reducing a bit of the suspension jounce I felt with the OEM tires.
I was going to run them for the winter as well, though I have not driven a vehicle in winter without specific winter tires in nearly a decade. But Cptpilot on this board noted that they were not as grippy on snow as he expected, so today the Michelin Arctic Alpins will be in at the tire shop and I'll have them mounted on some spare rims for winter use.
I have not driven them in the wet, but Michelin's own website shows greater wet grip on the X1 than their specific rain tire, the RainForce. I don't know why this is so, but the X1 is a premium tire and uses a new silica based rubber compound that would be expected to do well on wet surfaces.
So, very good ratings with no shortcomings save they seem to get rocks stuck in the tread easily, and throw them back out at inopportune moments.
Regards,
IdahoDoug
I know it's only for the US market (now), but I wouldn't be surprised if Australia gets it in the near future. I know you folks have a lot of car-based pickups down under. I would think the Baja would be a welcome addition to the Aussie lineup. Do you agree?
Bob
My previous car (Mitsu Diamante) had Michelin MXV4's and when I got the Outback I seemed to notice quite a bit more tire noise, even with new tires.
I've always had good luck with Michelins in the past.
1) I dont think the H6 is making 208 or 212hp or anywhere close. It acts like its in the 180hp range. Its either not making the power claimed or has a crummy power band and/or transmission. Either way I'm not impressed with the engine. I brought this up quite a while ago after my first test drive and now you can read Edmunds most recent review (Highlander -vs- VDC -vs- Rendezous) where they basically say the same thing. Dont get me wrong it is better under certain conditions than the H4..like short merges and lightly smoother power delivery. BUT I'm talking about value. City driving, highway driving, most driving there is really no difference. The H6 may also be more quiet after 75mph but having driven the Bean for 2 weeks its marginal. Perhaps the VDC is more quiet but I only drove that once and cannot remember. Its not like the H4 is loud......The 2.0L in my Protege ES is loud. Mostly what I hear in both the Ltd and the Bean is wind noise at 70mph.
2) The transmission is no better than the one in the H4 and still hunts for gears (although significantly less).
3) The price difference is between $3000-5000 over the price of a H4. The same car we have can be taken home for $24.5k. The Bean sells for $27k and the VDC for $30k. Its value I'm looking for here.
4) I dont want VDC. At least I want a way to turn it off. My wife does not like all the 2 tone stuff and badges in the Bean.
We were fully planning on trading in my wifes Ltd. for the VDC after its first model year but those plans are on hold. I just think dont its a good value. A nice car, but not a good value. In their current form if the Bean was $26k and the VDC $27k they would be more interesting. Once you reach $30-35k range the Highlander and Pilot just offer more. That price is also really close to offerings from VW, BMW, Audi, Volvo, and the new generation of SAABs.
The H6 is about silent and smooth delivery, not big-time power. It's also in sort of heavy models, with automatic only.
My wife tested a V6 Highlander and was not impressed. She preferred her Legacy with the 2.5l.
-juice
My girlfriend just bought the 2002 FWD V6 Highlander. Compared to the 2.5 OB, the Toyota is much more responsive than my car(city streets or freeway). I also wanted the 2.5 for gas mileage. I get 24 city/highway. the Toyota gets 22 city/highway. Overall, I think they're both great SUV's.
P.S. Does anybody know if the 2003 Foresters have a smoother ride compared to the 2002 and/or is it closer to the OB yet???
-juice
I would suggest that you go out a drive both—back-to-back, and then decide for yourself.
Remember, there's only a 500cc difference in engine size, despite having two extra cylinders. That's not a heck of a lot of size difference.
Bob
I think the fact that I have to pay extra to get an automatic on the Limited reduces the price difference between the two cars. Also, the Bean clearly is a bit more plush... and my decision isn't entirely about money.
I do agree that, in my test drives, the Bean didn't feel like 212 hp... so I'm still sceptical as to whether I'll get much more "oomph" vs the Limited when I run the Bean on regular.
I'm still basically undecided, but I'm currently leaning toward getting the Bean. Wish they had a better automatic though... I never hear any glowing comments about the automatic.
Do drive both but get on a highway and punch it and sample the 50-70 acceleration, i.e. typical passing speeds.
We found the H4 fine with the manual. If the H6 was offered with a manual, we probably would have sprung for that, though.
-juice
The current automatic is fine. The gear ratios are well-chosen and it is very durable and trouble-free.
Bob
1) The H6 would have been 3.5L. The target would be a real 240-260hp.
2) It would have made its debut the GT sedan/wagon first. Detuned versions setup for better low end torque would have followed as standard equipment the OB.
3) Manual available immediately. 5 or 6 spd...which ever would fit better.
4) 5spd auto like everyone else.
5) VDC would be standard in the GT and OB with a defeat button.
For now we ‘commute’ the other direction, from the city up to play in the Sierra’s. The 2.5L, 4 cylinder, 5-speed will climb any US mountain highway in 4th gear at 70+ mph with no trouble, even with 5 adults. In fact, it will climb most mountain highways in 5th. I don’t ever find myself without enough power, even at 7500 ft., and I don’t find many people passing me on an uphill either. I cannot comment as for the auto.
Sten
The Diamante was a pretty well insulated vehicle, so it would not be surprising to find it much quieter than the OB. Wagon bodystyles are also much more difficult to quiet due to the rear area being open to your ears rather than being sealed off like a sedan.
In '97 I test drove an OB Wagon and found it unacceptably loud in the rear seats. Ironically, 5 years later I find myself owning a '97 Legacy Wagon and was puzzled to find it quieter than I remembered. In trying to find a place to mount some cargo hooks, I discovered why. From '96 to '97 Subaru added over an inch of insulation to the cargo floor. So I'm not going crazy I guess. This is up for debate, of course....
At any rate, Michelin is the gold standard in tires unless you're in a specialist category like studded winter mud tires, or 35 series performance rubber.
Check out the crossover comparo Edmunds just did - the tranny was the sore spot for the Soob. Though I'll make several observations:
* they said torque peaks at 6000rpm, it's 4400
* they said no roadside assistance, you get 3 years
* they said no multiple 12 volt outlets, you get 2
* they said no CD changer, 2003s get one standard
It was a close race so those 4 things could have tied them up, IMO.
Still, the VDC won every single performance measure, got the best mileage, and costs the least in the real world (with all vehicles equipped the same). Not a bad showing.
-juice
Len