Subaru Legacy/Outback

ateixeira · February 2003

Oh. It might come later here if only because the Baja is built on the same assembly line, and that model just came out. I dunno if they'd stop it so soon. Nor do I think they'll build the new Legacy and (old) Baja along side each other.

-juice

romy4 · February 2003

I was browsing the inventory at the Subaru dealer last Sunday with my brother who is thinking of getting either a Forester or an Outback. Way in the back I spied an OB wagon in a color I didn't recognize. It turned out to be an H6 Outback Wagon in titanium. I checked the window sticker and it was the basic model with the H6. So they are out there now. This dealer is in NE PA.

Romy

ateixeira · February 2003

So they do exist! ;-)

fitzmall.com doesn't show any in stock yet.

-juice

xccoachlou · February 2003

On the TV show, the family owns an old red Legacy Wagon.

I'll bet the only other person watching that show didn't notice!

- Lou

tchase1 · March 2003

it's been a pleasure to get caught up. Hate to sound dumb, but what is a VDC?

I got a chance to check mileage for 1st time on our new OB wgn: 25.5/gal. Boy, was it a shocker to get a fill-up with the bigger tank and the increased gas prices--$25.85. I don't ever remember paying over $20 on our old Legacy, but I think it had a smaller tank and now the oiler gougers are running rampant. I would estimate that 1st tank was 1/2 city and 1/2 hiway (mtn.)

I hate to open up the cat controversy again, but I think I got it solved. I put a light piece of plastic over the engine after parking it in the garage. Also, the first night I caught her on the plastic and managed to douse her with a cup of water. So far, so good (a week or so). I don't know, though, if the plastic or the water is the deterrent. I'll find out when I take the plastic off, but for now, I'm leaving it on.

schiza · March 2003

A few weeks ago I posted on how our new LL Bean has been stalling at red lights. It doesn't happen often, about every 2 weeks. It's at the dealership now as they can't find the problem. They said they won't give it back until they find it. Which makes me feel better they're at least not giving me the brush off. I suspect the problem is electrical since all the power shuts off including engine, lights,radio etc. I also think it might have something to do with the auto starter we installed by the dealership. The car startsup no problem after it stalls and runs very smooth. Hopefully the dealer will find the problem soon. I will post the outcome. Thanks

ateixeira · March 2003

VDC = Vehicle Dynamics Control, but it's also Subaru's flagship model.

I'm glad you got the cat out of the bag, oops, I mean hood.

Good luck with that John.

-juice

c_hunter · March 2003

I would also suspect the auto starter, just because it's an added complication.

If everything shuts off, that should narrow down the problem considerably -- it would have to be a main component of the electrical system, such as the alternator or wiring.

Craig

ateixeira · March 2003

I'd shop for a WRX 6CD + cassette. They are easy to find, kids get XM or Sirius to replace them and then sell them cheap, about $150 or so.

Why not? It adds $150 in resale value easily, so you may even come out ahead. I've installed two, in both our Subies.

-juice

umyaya · March 2003

Hi all,

We're looking to get an O3 Legacy Limited Edition Wagon with the 6 disc sounds system. Given that there is $1000 dealer casch too, what should I look to pay. I thought at least $200 under invoice. What do you think?

ateixeira · March 2003

You're in MD, so I'd go to Fitzgerald. I bet you can do better, get invoice minus the full incentive. Try fitzmall.com.

If you'd like, I know a good salesman there and can refer you, e-mail me at ateixeira@ifc.org. The referral does not affect the price at all, they're right there on-line.

Yeah, they start at $18,773, right about a grand under invoice. You didn't mention if you wanted auto or 5 speed, but they have a bunch in stock.

-juice

c_hunter · March 2003

Yeah, I second that, look for a WRX stock unit on the www.NASIOC.com classifieds, it will be the best bet, and you get a 6 CD changer in the process.

The current WRX radio is black, but will be silver/charcoal (a la Forester) in the 04 models. Now is a good time to look for a black one.

Craig

c_hunter · March 2003

Oh, I forget to mention. I have given up on training or re-training our cats. If it was just me and the cats, I could make it into a scientific discipline experiment and perhaps enjoy some success. But add my wife into the mix, and forget about it. Never mind, she's the boss of me and the cat's are the boss of her, so I don't have a chance.

If my cat's were allowed in the garage, they'd probably be DRIVING the cars. "watchout, Toonces, noooo....."

Craig

ccampbell4 · March 2003

...were 16, 19, 15, and 16 mpg!

hypov · March 2003

Craig -
How 'bout laying a blanket over the hood and over lay with aluminum foil [blanket so foil won't scratch hood]. My cats don't like walking on aluminum foils. Maybe your cats don't like it too. After a bit I sure it will equate that getting up there makes paw feels yukkie.

-Dave

hammersley · March 2003

Isn't it the other way around?

Cheers!
Paul

originalbitman · March 2003

Cats dislike citrus... not sure how that helps but with so many creative thinkers here I'm sure there is an answer.

bit

xccoachlou · March 2003

Where did you guys find out about this?

- Lou

firstov · March 2003

schiza,
After picking up our LL Bean from dealership service I was told that:
1. They can not replicate the stalling issue;
2. Slight hesitation at 1000-1500 RPM is normal.
Our car has stalled only once with 300 Miles at ODO.
So I put "Dry Gas" in hoping it was water in the tank.
We'll see how it goes...

umyaya · March 2003

The dealer cash on Legacy/Outbacks continues at $1.000.00
The dealer cash on Imprezas has been increased from $500.00 to $750.00
There is now $500.00 dealer cash on the Forester 2.5 X models only.

Financing:
24 x 0.00% APR.
36 x 1.90% APR.
48 x 2.90% APR.
60 x 3.59% APR.

schiza · March 2003

I have mine at the dealer now. They're trying to replicate the stall as they've had it for 4 days now. With mine I think all the power shuts down when it stalls, which leaves me to believe it's electrical. I also have an automatic starter. It has stalled 4 times. I have 1100 miles on it.
I hope they find something.

ateixeira · March 2003

I bet it's related to the knock sensor somehow, retarding the spark timing.

-juice

tkevinblanc · March 2003

I'm glad to hear they are taking it seriously. But really, you turn the key back to the off position and back on again, it starts right up? And it only stalls at red lights (i.e., doesn't stall at speed)?

At least that doesn't sound too dangerous. Hell, all the cars I drove in my 20s (20 years ago) did that. :0)

ajm831 · March 2003

fitzmall.com which has the lowest prices on- line that I've seen- averaging $4000+ off of sticker- has its first plain jane H6 on its web site at several hundred dollars off of retail. On the same page are LL Bean models for less money. Shop quickly or wait and get less for more.

schiza · March 2003

So far it's not dangerous. If this happens on the highway, because if it's electrical in can very well happen. I just don't believe you should put up with a new car that stalls. If this happens when new, then I hate to see it after a few years. I have 2 subes (WRX). After a year and half with the WRX, I've had no problems. The LL Bean is a great car, but the stalling scares me.

paisan · March 2003

I'll bet that that has something to do with it,and SO isn't and shouldn't be held responsible for that,it's solely on the shoulders of the alarm/starter installer in that case.

-mike

hypov · March 2003

Schiza-
the characteristic appears very like the "BlackJax" that I had in my '98 OB minus the siren. When triggered, the BlackJax will wait till the car slows down and to a full stop, then kills the engine and all electricals. What kind of alarm system do you have in addition to the remote starter?

Oh, one other thing. Although I'm not totally familiar with remote starters, I understand that the ignition key has to be inserted and turn to the post engine start position. Otherwise, the kill switch will kick in (anti-theft feature); and that might explain the stalling.

-Dave

schiza · March 2003

The dealer installed the auto starter before it was delivered. I to suspect the auto starter. The dealership hasn't ruled it out yet They're trying to replicate the stall. They're actually driving it around with a computer hooked up to it.
We'll see. Thanks for your feedback.

c_hunter · March 2003

If it's any comfort, my Bean is about 15 months old, 21000 miles, and has been flawless. I really love the car. So, I hope you can get these problems worked out and enjoy it soon!

Craig

ateixeira · March 2003

Ask them to replace the auto starter hardware. It's not worth the risk to find out it the intermittent problem will come back again. Of course it won't fail when they run diagnostics, just like your toilet doesn't run when the plumber arrives.

-juice

ochssk · March 2003

Our '02 Bean has been great too. The only problem has been the computer needing reprogramming. I've noticed a slight hesitation when starting out. I usually remedy this by punching the accellerator a little more forcefully.

I hope your stalling issue is resolved soon. At least they aren't saying they can't replicate the problem and sending you on your merry way.

Steve O.

c_hunter · March 2003

Steve, try a bottle of STP injector cleaner. I have heard that it can really smooth out hestitation problems.

Craig

otis123 · March 2003

My 2001 LLBean has 39K flawless miles (except for warped front rotors early on)... knock on the desk...

joeb24 · March 2003

I have an 01 LL Bean H6 and, before too long, I want to replace my Firestone Wilderness tires. Does anyone have a suggestion for a better replacement tire. I wouldn't mind having a more aggressive tread which would be better in snow, but I wouldn't want a noisy tire either.

By the way, I recently switched from 93 Octane to 89 Octane because of cost, and I have not noticed any difference.

nygreg · March 2003

I have Dunlop Sport A2s. They were very quiet at first, but, have increased in noise as they wear only when going slow. Still fine though. Good in snow, rain and dry. Would I buy them again? Yes. Others also recommend Dunlop SP 5000s and Michelin Pilot XGTs. Check out tirerack.com.

Greg

paisan · March 2003

IMHO are the best replacement all-seasons out there. For an outback I'd probably get the sport A2s over the SP5000s cause the 5000s are a bit overly agressive for the OB.

-mike

blackbean · March 2003

I have 2002 LL Bean Outback I bought last September. I had to have the front rotors replaced under warranty a week after I took delivery (they were obviously warped from the beginning - maybe from sitting too long and then getting hot real quick on a test drive???). Anyway, 9,000 flawless miles so far!

blackbean · March 2003

I agree that Dunlop Sport A2's are excellent tires - I have had them on an Accord in the past and they were FAR superior to the Michelin MXV-4's that came stock on the car. When the 3-season Bridgestones that came on my 2002 LLBean wear out, I will defnitiley be switching to the Dunlop A2's.
I have Dunlop Winter Sport M2's on my car for the winter and they are great (very quiet and stable and very predictable in the snow and ice). Dunlop makes a good product at an affordable price - Michelin's high-end is very good as well, but at a 20-30% premium.

tkevinblanc · March 2003

I had terrible luck with Dunlops on a Sienna we own. They had the "puncturematic" feature. Swear to God, we had 10 flat repairs in 2 years. They were terrible.

Now, of course, they were OEM, and I'll bet they weren't as good as the aftermarket ones. We went to Michelins early because I couldn't take the regular runs to the station for repairs...

I guess the model of tire you get is at least as important as the brand.

ateixeira · March 2003

Congrats Matt.

I'm sure the rotors were warped before you even picked up the car. Maybe aggressive braking on the test drive before the brake pads were broken in.

Which Dunlops gave you those flats, D60 A2 JLB or SP Sport A2? The latter replaced the former.

-juice

bkaiser1 · March 2003

I put these tires on my 01 Outback last July and have put nearly 20K miles on them since then. While I raved about these tires at first, I'm a bit less impressed with them with half the tread gone. The tires have gotten intolerably noisy, particularly at low speeds (under 50mph) -- they make a distinct warble sound on most surfaces and get even louder around curves (offramps, traffic circles, etc). Snow traction has not been outstanding, either, and the ride has deteriorated a bit from when they were new last summer. I've also had a hell of a time keeping them balanced -- there has been a nearly constant vibration that Discount Tire cannot eliminate.

On the upside, they seem to be wearing okay (I estimate I can get another 15K-20K miles out of them) and the dry traction is really quite good. I'm glad I tried them out, though...they are a really high rated tire...but I think next time I'll go with another brand for comparison's sake.

Brian

c_hunter · March 2003

I think the front rotors are a weak part on the Outback. On my first 00 Outback, they were warped from the beginning and had to be resurfaced at ~2000 miles. On my 02 LL Bean, the rotors were fine at the beginning, but began exhibiting symptoms of warpage at about 9000 miles, and I had them resurfaced at about 12000 miles. On both vehicles, the brakes were fine thereafter (my parents now have the 00 with about 40,000 miles on it). I never did any hard braking in either car.

On the 00, I got the impression that the thickness of the rotors was out of variance -- not necessarily warpage. After reading about everyone else's experiences, it makes me think that the front rotors are either undersized or the original parts are poor quality.

Craig

ateixeira · March 2003

I believe the rotors got a little bigger for MY2001 on Outbacks.

The H6s weigh more, but I think even those got bigger brakes in MY2002 or 2003, I forget which.

-juice

nygreg · March 2003

Mine were warped when new too. Replaced. Then warped. Then machined. Finally, new ones and it seems fine now. Bad batch?

Mike - what do you mean by the P5000s being too aggressive for the OB?

Greg

paisan · March 2003

I they are a very agressive tire. Basically they fall closer to a summer tire than the Sport A2s. On an outback you want to have less of a summer tire and more of an all-season tire. The Sport A2s are going to be better in snow and rain than the SP5000s. Also the Sport A2s are more likely to loose grip allowing you to skid rather than grip-roll an OB compared to the SP5000s

-mike

otis123 · March 2003

My original Firestones (LLBean with 39K miles) are totally bald on the edges, with decent tread on the rest of each tire (the middle 3 grooves). Needless to say the are prone to slipping when corning in wet conditions. Time to replace. They were generally OK tires...

After considerable research @ tirerack.com and other sites (and some recommendations on this thread), I've decided to get Michelin Pilot Sport A/S tires (~$150. a pop). Sounds like a lot of $ (actually, IS a lot of $ for tires), but no other tire can do what these are rated (by hundred of owners) to do in any driving condition (especially snow). And do until they wear to nothing (unlike my Honda Accord's BFGoodrich tires which seem to have become hard as rock and slippery as they wear down).

Off to BJs this Saturday with my $7.50 off per tire coupon (it's great to drive up to BJs at 8:30PM on a Tuesday night and get your tires rotated for free). Will report back over time (will probably even get a snow review in before April)...

Ralph

ateixeira · March 2003

Hmm, Ralph, make sure you have enough air in the tires. Wear on the edges could be a sign of low pressure.

Or hard cornering. :-)

-juice

fibber2 · March 2003

"a bit less impressed with them with half the tread gone."

Unfortunately, that too was my impression of the predecessor, the D60-A2. Outstanding when new, noisy and prone to hydroplaning when some of the blocks 'closed' at half tread life. But I suspect that is the case with many tire designs. Full cuts make the thick blocks squirmy, so many are only divided partially. At half depth, the entire design of the tread changes, and it becomes a new beast. Maybe OK, but probably worse. I wish testers like Consumer Reports would shave their tires and retest. I bet many of their recommendations would change.

Steve

otis123 · March 2003

Hard cornering at ~ 75 mph (hugging the center guardrail on the Taconic State Parkway) and slightly underinflated (30 psi) - even though the door sticker says 29 I think.

Anyway, I'll take 40K on an original tire any day...

Ralph

nygreg · March 2003

75 mph on the Taconic with a winter we are having can be dangerous. Although I found myself doing 80 yesterday. ;-o Didn't realize it, really.

Sport A2s: after reading Brian's post, I drove yesterday with the radio off and listen to the tires. They have indeed gotten quite loud. I still think the traction is good, but, maybe I have less miles on mine.

Greg

Subaru Legacy/Outback

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