Subaru Legacy/Outback

cassieb · November 2003

hello

cassieb · November 2003

hello,
My "Sweetpea" (winter-green) wagon will be 3 years old next March. My dealer sent me the "classic" Security advertisement. By March it will be 36 months for 550.00 with a 100.00 deductable. I don't know if I should take it or not. I have 25,000 miles on her now and no problems what-so-ever. should I do it or not?
any help will be appreciated
thanks cassieb

cptplt · November 2003

we've beaten this subject to death but IMHO get a gold warranty with zero deductible for the longest time period (7yr/100K) and only buy it if you can find a dealer selling at least 30% off the list price.

c_hunter · November 2003

In my opinion, warrantees are not needed on Subarus, but if it makes you feel better, go for it.

Craig

lfdal · November 2003

Just put winter tires on the wife's OBW. First time in years (gads - decades) I've had a separate set of winter treads.

Now that I've got the alloy's off and cleaned, whats the best way to store them - flat stacked on top of each other? Standing upright just leaning against the wall? I suspect hanging them would be my first choice, but no where to do that.

Any recommendations welcome.

Thanks
Larry

snowdr · November 2003

I have a 2001 subaru outback with mud and snow tires. I am not getting good traction in the snow even on a slightly-graded hill. The car is also fishtailing on corners. Has anyone out there had this problem and have been to resolve it? If so please tell me how. This is the first time I've used it in the winter. Thanks

paisan · November 2003

Is the best method to store em.

-mike

K9Leader · November 2003

It all depends on the brand and model of tires, and the tread left on them. Go to the Tire Rack website - http://www.tirerack.com/ - to look up the tires you have and see how they rate in traction on snow (and in wet, and in dry). Even if they are good when new, as the tread wears, all tires will lose snow traction, with some becoming useless in snow even when there is still quite a bit of tread left.
Good luck!
--K9Leader

c_hunter · November 2003

Is your car auto transmission or manual?

Stock tires? How many miles on them?

Craig

bkaiser1 · November 2003

I put about 55K miles on my 01 Outback (H4,5sp)while I was living in snow country...it was the first AWD car I'd owned, having only had FWD cars up until then. I immediately noticed the car's propensity to fishtail in snowy corners...where a FWD car would just plow through, the OB would want to rotate all the way around. Fun, or scary, depending on your point of view. Chalk it up to a trait of AWD on all season tires...

I did, however, find the car to be unstoppable in deep snow -- conditions that would have left any FWD car on the side of the road were not a problem in the Subaru. With a lighter foot on the gas, the back stayed in line around corners and the car would make it through incredible amounts of snow without drama.

Brian

ateixeira · November 2003

The tires aren't holding up any weight, so it should not matter that much. Still, I'd put them on their sides to avoid flat spotting.

The M+S rating does not mean much. I hear they just take a *look* at the tread to award that. I've owned worn M+S tires that were absolutely lousy in snow, including the Potenzas I used to have on my Miata, it was scary.

There is a new rating that has a snow flake on the side wall, those are truly good tires in snow.

-juice

lfdal · November 2003

juice & paisan - thanks for the responses, on the sides they go.

Also, at tirerack consider yourself lucky to be shopping for an OB - they only have 2 sizes left for the Forester. Sold out quick last year as well

I'm trying the WInterforce series on the OBW and the XT. They're getting some pretty good reviews on tirerack.

Larry

c_hunter · November 2003

The 5-spd Outbacks (and I imagine other 5-spd Soobs) are tail happy in the snow, which is why I wondered what "snowdr" has. The autos are better behaved unless you floor it, at which point there will be a bang through the driveline as torque gets sent aft, and then the car will get tail happy if you keep on the gas. In either car, I think the trick is to go light on the throttle as you have noted.

Craig

ozman62 · November 2003

.. you like that tail-happy feeling! Seriously though, moderation (in throttle action) is the safest bet, even when you're hanging it out there a bit.. ;-)
Regards, Owen (in slippery Calgary)

dcm61 · November 2003

I believe the rear LSD can also contribute to tail wagging in the snow.

My '03 OBW w/ rear LSD sure feels more tail happy in the snow than my '96 OBW w/o rear LSD did.

DaveM

ateixeira · November 2003

Try a fatter rear sway bar, that'll really get the fun started. If you can't wag the tail, then you're driving your grandma's car. ;-)

-juice

mn_pat · November 2003

suby is way better. I drove a 96 legacy for 6 years, yeah it will slip and slide and fishtail, but there is snow on the ground. My old Legacy was way better in the snow than any FWD car. I could put the suby into a slide, point the front wheels in the direction I wanted to go and hit the throttle and back end would snap back into place and i was off to the races. Its only been one snow fall since i "lost" my subaru and I really miss it.

ptrekker · November 2003

OEM tires are the culprits. They s*ck. Get a set of Dunlops, Contis, or even Kumhos from the tire rack.

ateixeira · November 2003

Worn Potenza RE92s are indeed awful in the snow. That's why some call them "Blowtenzas". OE tires are always a compromise.

-juice

K9Leader · November 2003

This is a followup to my recent posts about my broken front swaybar on my 2000 OB Ltd wagon. I got the new swaybar, and attempted to replace it myself. While disconnecting the plastic shield, and the swaybar itself is pretty basic, it appears that the exhaust system has to be disassembled and removed in order to get the old bar out and the new one in. That is too much for me, so it has an appointment at one of the local Subaru dealers to have the job done. Ah, well, I tried . . .
--K9Leader

oregonaj · November 2003

Hi to all,

One more question from a new Outback owner. We love our '03 Outback but it has one minor irritant that I'd like to correct. The turn signals cancel okay when making a fairly sharp right angle turn (city turn). When making any other turns (lane changes, freeway off ramps etc however, they never cancels. I've experimented with making these turns as sharp as I can but nothing works. Turn signals on other cars I drive usually cancel under these conditions but the Outback never does. I'd like to know if this is normal for this car or if there's something wrong that I can have the dealer fix.

Thanks, Jim

c_hunter · November 2003

Sounds about right to me, though I haven't noticed the Outback turn signals to be any different than other cars I have driven.

Craig

kmclean · December 2003

Jim -

Try the lane-changing feature of the turn signals - where you just lightly press the lever up or down to activate the signals - without pressing it all the way past the detent [that you would use in a hard turn where you need both hands on the wheel]. Then simply release the lever when you're done changing lanes or exiting - at which point the turn signal stops. It might take a little practice - this feature varies a lot amongst car models. Seems to me the OB is in the middle of the pack - not too hard and not too touchy.

Cheers from Seattle!

Ken M.

roopower2 · December 2003

How long past 120k can I push it without doing the timing belt? I will do all the fluids, new belts, hoses, filters, etc. We may be needing a minivan soon with baby#2 on the way and would like to get another year of use without the expense of the dealer service cost for this item.
J.

ateixeira · December 2003

What I'd be asking is if that is an interference design. If so, a broken timing belt would basically cause a total loss of a car that old.

If not, your biggest risk is being stranded.

-juice

goosegog · December 2003

Change the belt. It's asking for trouble otherwise. Ask me how I know.

You may get lucky depending on how many miles you put on it, but you're taking a big chance if it's an interference engine (valves can hit pistons). As Juice says, that could entail a big bucks rebuild.

And even if it doesn't lunch your engine, do you really want to be stuck, possibly with baby #1, in the middle of nowhere, or the busiest intersection in town or in the fast lane on the freeway?

And ask yourself this: What will your wife think of you if this happens to her and it's all because YOU WERE TOO CHEAP! Is it worth that :-)

roopower2 · December 2003

Thanks for the replies but these comments are not applicable. I know the 2.2 is a non-interference engine so engine damage is not an issue. At most I would pay a tow truck $50 to take me to the dealer (2 miles from the house). Plus my wife wouldn't touch this car with a 20-foot pole cause she drives our 2003 Forester with the baby in it. She works from home so no commute for her. I have a 2 mile drive to work and back and live in a small town so no highways to deal with. I don't take this vehicle out of town either. I am asking how long people have pushed the timing belt without problems. Plus I put only about 3000 miles a year on this vehicle. Also in California, the timing belt change interval is 100,000 miles but the timing belt is the same part #. Go figure.
John

ateixeira · December 2003

I'd milk it, then. It may not ever break at that pace.

-juice

mn_pat · December 2003

I put 85k on my 96 legacy L before I had the T-belt replaced. The 2.2 is NON-interface, I'd skip replacement and just get it towed if it ever does break.

andrewk · December 2003

I am contemplating the purchase of a '00 Legacy Outback wagon, I will see it tomorrow and would appreciate any and all information that I can obtain.

It is a 5 speed w/ 46k miles, has winter & security packages, speaker upgrade, new tires, and of course all of the standard equiptment. Reportedly, good running condition, the exterior has only a couple small scratches. Based on this, what would a good price here in central Indiana. The seller is a one owner, is anxious and motivated.

Also, is there anything that I should pay close or special attention to?

We bought new a '03 Legacy SE Wagon in June and are tickled pink with it. I saw this car advertised and I am seriously considering it, but I am not as knowledgable about it as my Legacy.

Any and all input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Andy

ateixeira · December 2003

The powertrain is essentially the same, 2.5l Phase II SOHC.

Things to look for? Check the bottom of the block, at all the gaskets and seals, for oil leaks. If you see any oil stains I'd red flag it, even though it is still under powertrain warranty.

The other thing is the clutch - check for smooth engagement. If it chatters, or shakes, there is a TSB to fix it, but yours that's past the B2B warranty.

The good news is the most common problem with Subies are the wheel bearings, and the Legacy's design is not succeptible to failure, that only affects Foresters before 2003 and Imprezas before 2002.

Happy shopping.

-juice

goosegog · December 2003

Clutch judder, especially when cold. A bad smell from the clutch when slipped a little more than usual is apparently normal.

My 00 OB was recalled for an ECU replacement.

c_hunter · December 2003

I had an 00 Outback, and it was an excellent car. My parents drive it now. Only major problem was the clutch judder, but they had it taken care of under the TSB and all is well again. I guess other people have experienced head gasket problems, but they are pretty rare on the 00 (based on what I've seen reported here). So, I would concentrate on the behavior of the clutch and give the engine a good lookover.

I have an 02 Outback LL Bean now with about 33,000 miles. I absolutely love the car, and plan on keeping it for a long time. It's been trouble-free and is a great vehicle.

Craig

kmclean · December 2003

John -

Closest I can come to helping out is my experience with an '86 Dodge Lancer I owned (new). Had a 2.2L OHC 4 cylinder ("non-interference" design as described above). Strangely, neither the owner's manual nor the expanded backyard mechanic's manual called for a timing belt (nylon/plastic) change at all! I even checked this out with a dealer, since I'd had cars needing the change previously. Long and short is it broke around 95K miles (subsequent Chrysler engines - such at the 2.5 L OHC 4 - called for changes at 60K).

As you'd expect - a "free" (auto club) tow to a local San Antonio repair shop, and around $150 to replace the belt. No engine damage - but, man, did that thing crank fast when I tried to restart it right after the belt broke!

Good luck!

Ken in Seattle

otis123 · December 2003

My 2001 LLBean is reaching 52,000 miles and has also been trouble free. I'm taking it as far as it will go...

[knock on plastic wood - sorry]

Ralph

andrewk · December 2003

Thanks for all of the feedback! A couple followup questions please:

Clutch judder -is this similar to the initial sign of a clutch starting to slip, a little shake or vibration? The seller is driving an hour to meet me, so it won't be cold; would the clutch judder still be apparent? He said that he has not had any clutch problems; did some or most or nearly all of these '00 clutches have the problem?

What is the B2B warranty; what warranties, if any, would still be in place on a '00 w/46k on it?

What is an ECU replacement?

Thanks again!

c_hunter · December 2003

The judder makes it difficult or impossible to engage the clutch smoothly, basically the clutch plate gets real grabby and can in turn cause hotspots on the flywheel. So, even experienced MT drivers would find it hard to drive a clutch. The problem initially appears in cold/damp weather, and goes away when the clutch warms up. However, when severe, the problem will exist all the time and the car will be very unpleasant to drive. You'd know right away if it had this severe a problem!

I think the basic "B2B" warranty is for 3 years/36,000 miles, though it was less on the 2000 model years if I remember right. Either way, the car would b out of that warranty. What's left are the various other warranties -- I think powertrain goes to 5years/60,000miles, emissions is good to 85,000 miles (?? years) and there's probably also a rust warranty, but I don't know the details of that.

Somewhere along the line, there was a service bulletin on the ECU (engine control unit) for the 2000 models -- basically, they would swap your ECU with a reprogrammed one that had different algorithms, at no cost. No big deal, all it did was improve certain behavior of the engine. Personally, I didn't detect any differnce before/after. You can ask the owner if he had this done, but honestly, I don;t think it's a big deal.

There have been a couple other bulletins, one to get the rear suspension sub-frame re-painted (faulty undercoating on some cars) and the other was for auto-transmission models, so you don't need to worry about that.

Craig

ateixeira · December 2003

Even my '98 had the 3/36 B2B warranty, but that's expired anyway. Later models added roadside assistance for those 3 years, my wife's 2002 has that.

You'll have the remainder of the 5/60 powertrain warranty on that used sample.

-juice

bat1161 · December 2003

I'm driving a 2000 OB 5MT now. It has had 2 recalls, as mentioned. The ECM (WXV79) and the rear suspension (WWM96). The 2000 is also susceptible to the head gasket problem, as I know from personal experience. That, and the clutch shudder are the only things you have to look out for, and SOA took care of both.

The warranty was 3yr/36K B2B; 5yr/60K Powertrain and Rustproofing.
Good Luck!
Mark

BTW - Kelly Blue Book gives a trade in value of ~$11200

andrewk · December 2003

Well, I saw this car last night and got a good impression overall.

As far as the clutch, it felt okay but not as good as my new '03 Legacy. When depressing the final 25% or so, it felt just a little funny. I did not sense any smell under the hood. The owner claims that there wasn't any problems with the clutch.

Under the hood, there were just a few minor concerns. One of the battery cable connections was heavily corroded and in extremely bad shape. There excessive corrosion around the brace also. There appeared to be some oil residue partially (uneven) around a boot extending to the right front wheel, which had been replaced due to hitting a curb. Other than that, everything looked okay.

There were 3 few minor grocery cart type dings on the exterior. The interior was cherry.

It appears it well maintained fairly well,eg: 30k mile maintenance at 33k; however, neither recall had been performed.

He agreed to pay to have the local Subaru dealer perform an inspection and have the 45k maintenance.

Overall, a pretty nice car, just not as pristine as my new Legacy. But then again, it's half the cost. I need to make the big decision today. It's going to be a tough decision because I will be somewhat over-extending myself before selling my truck if I get it.

Thanks so much for everyone's help!

-Andy

ateixeira · December 2003

New batteries are cheap - $40-60 or so. Budget that in and go for it, seems like it's in pretty good shape for the price.

-juice

bat1161 · December 2003

Andy-

Funny, the battery hold down was replaced on my OB as well due to heavy corrosion. That was done a while ago, while still under original warranty.

If you go for it, enjoy it!

Mark

goosegog · December 2003

I had this problem too. It always came back after cleaning and the top of the battery always seemed wet around the fillers until I sucked a little acid out of each cell. Cleaned and repainted the holddown and it's been OK for over a year.

andrewk · December 2003

I pulled the trigger tonight and decided to buy the Outback described in my previous posts. I want to thank EVERYONE for their responses, reassurances, and encouragement.

Provided the dealer "used car inspection" is acceptable, probably Tuesday or Wednesday, I will become an excited Outback owner next week.

As I mentioned in my previous post, we purchased a new '03 Legacy SE Wagon in June that we have been absolutely thrilled with. I am just as excited to get this '00 Outback now.

I really do appreciate everyone's help. Thank you!

-Andy

herzogtum71 · December 2003

What does SIA stand for? I was searching the discussion to find out if the US-sold Outback wagons are made in Indiana. From the discussion I think they are, but I didn't find an explanation for this abbreviation. Thanks.

robr2 · December 2003

SIA - Subaru-Isuzu America I believe. The plant in Indiana was originally a joint venture between Subaru and Isuzu.

One of the Subiphiles will be along soon with the correct answer.

rsholland · December 2003

Now it's Subaru Indiana Automotive, since Isuzu is no longer part of the picture.

Bob

jlemole · December 2003

Cool, a 2 Subie family! Let us know how you like it.

Jon

wired1 · December 2003

I am really confused. This morning I spoke with my (crazy) brother and asked about buying tires. My pride & joy Eddie Bauer with just 30,000 miles is ready for new 'skins'.

Anyway...we are discussing Potenzas and A-2s and he says that I should get a newer model. Gee...mine is only 18 months old...but he is saying that it is the best-time to get a nwer model before mine starts to lose value.

Is is crazy? Should I start looking? HELP and Thanks!

jlemole · December 2003

Maybe I'm losing my mind, but now that we've had some consistent cold weather, I'm noticing less and less valve clatter on morning startups. There was a lot of it the first few cold days, but it's getting less pronounced. Is this logical?

Jon

P.S. I'm running M1 10w30, OEM filter.

Subaru Legacy/Outback

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