Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

bolivar · June 2002

Yep, yep, yep - the local Ford guy moved them around again. The trucks are on the north end of the lot now. They were on the south end of the lot for 3 or 4 weeks before jumping back.

And you know, the stock doesn't really seem more 'fresh' after the move. He's still got the same 5 Rangers, and none of them seem to have grown a 4L motor during the moves.

And, of course I have a lot of time on my hands, I read all this Edmunds stuff don't I. Now, what about this 'golf' I'm supposed to look into? Does Ford sell this model?

isellhondas · June 2002

I don't wish to debate you on this...I asked, and our service dept hasn't seen any 2001 Odys with trans problems at this point. Still, it's a car and anything can happen, I guess.

bbt1 · June 2002

Does anyone know what the title and registration fees are in Florida? The reason why I am asking is my friend was charged $225 for tag and title by the dealership. I am wondering if the dealership is charging a bit more and keeping the net for profit.

According to the DMV online website it costs about $125 for registration and $25 for title and $10 for a license plate. I think he was taken. What do you people think?

suvshopper4 · June 2002

Sounds like the dealership made a profit on the transaction.
Don't know that I'd consider that being 'taken', though.

Was there a documentation fee on top of everything else? Here in NJ, we pay the DMV fees, plus a doc fee for the dealer to handle the DMV paperwork- most recently $125 at my dealer.

gracevw · June 2002

Ok...last night I went to one of the VW dealers in my area to test drive and possibly sign a deal on a 2002 Beetle. Of course I was fairly secure in the research I had done here, but I did listen to the salesman when he pointed out things I was not aware of - such as the invoice after the 25/92 and $100 ad fee (which I was fine with). After that, the math got real fuzzy, real quick! He brought out a couple printouts that showed "all" the numbers, but I can't for the life of me figure out how the program they use got from A to B! Every question I asked was met with circular logic and left unanswered. The salesman kept telling me that a lease wasn't something you could figure out using pen, paper, and a calculator. Was he right? I was especially confused by the way they figure the taxes, but even with a general understanding of that, there is about $30/month that I can't figure where it came from.

What am I missing?? I prefer to give the salesman the benefit of the doubt, but I don't know...

gracevw

tboner1965 · June 2002

Sales tax?

gracevw · June 2002

The sales tax was (according to this sheet) the first thing calculated. I considered writing down the numbers, but I can only remember some of them as he didn't offer to let me take the printout with me

gracevw

CarMan@Edmunds · June 2002

Hi gracevw. Lease payments can indeed be calculated using a pencil and paper, but it is much easier to calculate them using a calculator or an Excel spreadsheet. Here is a link to a discussion that I created which explains exactly how to calculate monthly lease payments: Car_man "The Return of "How to Calculate Monthly Lease Payments"" Jun 28, 2001 4:15pm. There is also an article on this subject available here at Edmunds.com: Calculate Your Own Lease Payment. If you would like, I would be more than happy to calculate a sample lease payment for you on the car that you are interested in. Please feel free to post a message over on the Finance, Warranty, and Insurance Message Board asking me to do so. In this message, please include this car's full MSRP, the price that you were able to negotiate on it, how long you plan on leasing it for, and how many miles per year you wish to be able to drive it without penalty. See you there.

Car_man
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bretfraz · June 2002

I used to do them all the time on paper before I spent $70 on Expert Lease Pro, a fancy program that allows all kinds of lease manipulations.

Make sure they are not bumping the money factor on you or messing with the residual. Car Man can give you both from the current VW deal (who is the finance company?). You ought to know the cap cost since you negotitated it. Make sure you understand how tax is calculated on leases in your state (some calc. tax on the monthly lease amt and a few calc. tax on the entire cap cost).

It's pretty easy to do once you've got the formula down. I almost got bamboozeled once on a lease until I realized what I was screwing up (the dealer misrepresented the MF but I caught it before signing the papers).

gracevw · June 2002

Car_man & bretfraz,

Thank you for your replies! I appreciate it. Car_man, I have done the lease calculation on both the GL and GLS using various MF, cap. cost, and residuals - that's why I was fairly confident going in that I knew what a fair monthly price should be. The printouts he showed me listed all the pertinent information, but did not show the calculations that were used to arrive at the final monthly payment. I actually sat there and used his calculator and the numbers presented on the computer printout he gave me and I still couldn't arrive at the same number they did! That's when he kept telling me that it couldn't be done using a regular calculator because there were things that were factored in - which, of course, he refused to elaborate on. Needless to say (but I'm going to anyway!), I was getting pretty frustrated.

bretfraz, from what I could see the MF hadn't changed, but who knows -I certainly may have missed something!

I will be heading over to the Finance forum now...

Thanks again!!

gracevw

bbt1 · June 2002

there was a dealer fee of $300 in addition to the $225 for title and registration.

has anyone heard of doing the paperwork themselves to save the costs of administrative costs?

pan2 · June 2002

Hi all. Great discussion group!

We were shopping for a '02 Subaru Legacy wagon (manual) but were captivated by some bells and whistles on the Outback (Can't underestimate the appeal of, e.g., wiper de-icers and seat warmers in New England). It happened that one of the dealers had a couple of '01 Outback demos with 3K and 4.5K miles respectively.

1) Should we be concerned that these have been driven hard by yahoos like me, testing out the acceleration and braking, and abusing the clutch?

2) The Edmunds, NADA, and Blue Book prices on these cars was ~$18.8K, $20.3K, 23.3K, respectively. Given that range, does the dealer's asking price of 19.2K seem pretty reasonable for a demo?

4) Is the demo with 3K mi much more attractive than the one with 4.5K?

Any thoughts on any of these questions, or other tips on how to evaluate these cars, will be much appreciated.

Pan2

mvargo1 · June 2002

First determine the adjusted cap cost.

Take the price of the vehicle minus any money you are putting down(fees don't count only cap cost reduction)

Second determine the depreciation.

Subtract the residual value from the adjusted cap.

Third determine the rental charge.

Add the residual to the adjusted cap and multiply the sum by the money factor(this should be a number that looks like this .00255 and is approximatly equal to the interest rate divided by 2400).

Fourth determine total of monthly payments.

Add depreciation plus rental charge

Fifth determine base monthly payment.

Divide total of monthly payments by term.

Now multiply base monthly payment by the appropriate state tax rate
9% in PA and you get your payment.

To determine money due at delivery Add:

Cap cost reduction
Tax on cap reduction
Bank aquisition Fee
Security deposit (if applicable)
Notary Fee's
Plate/DMV charges
First monthly payment
Luxury tax(4% of everything over $40,000)

Most of this except First monthly payment and plate and notary fee's can be rolled into adjusted cap.

tboner1965 · June 2002

The sales tax is on the Cap Cost, so there it doesn't seem logical for me to lease, since I would end up paying more in taxes. So instead of X% of your payment, it is X% of the Cap Cost becomes taxes

TB

mpp2 · June 2002

I am looking to sell my Jeep. I usually sell my cars rather than trade them in, but they have always been paid off with high miles (well over 100k). This time, I still owe money on the Jeep, so I was curious what extra steps are required in the sale since there is still a lien on the vehicle and the financing was thru the dealership with a bank that doesn't seem to have a branch very close to home. Any insight would be appreciated.

prodigalsun · June 2002

I am planning on getting a Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V. I have visited my local Nissan dealer twice to test drive, and they have been courteous. When it comes time to negotiate for the car, I will probably be ordering one from the factory through them. I know that the Nissan Holdback is 3%, and that they will get all of it in the event of an order. I am planning on offering them about $300 over invoice, which with holdback should be about $840. Does this seem fair?

raybear · June 2002

It's a good place to start. Your area is not famous for low prices, so be prepared for them to argue.

audia8q · June 2002

Based upon the vheicle you want....your offer might get you laughed out of the dealership...bring up holdback and they might actually chase you out of the dealership..hahah

in our region the car you want is selling at close to MSRP. But you can certainly offer anything you want.

prodigalsun · June 2002

So, bringing up holdback is offensive enough for them to toss me? ;-)

I checked with CarsDirect.com, they said they could get the vehicle for $18,7K. If I walked this quote into the dealership, and asked them to beat it, would they?

isellhondas · June 2002

Just don't be surprised if your offere isn't accepted.

It's the prevailing MARKET that determines price.

audia8q · June 2002

Like I mentioned...you can make any offer you feel is fair and all they can do is say no...now that said, they get a somewhat limited number of these vehicles...if everyone is willing to pay more than you then they have no incentive to sell you the car based upon supply and demand.

If your local dealer has these vehicles laying all over the lot then you will have a better chance of them working with you on price.

If you make a fair offer and they decline either raise your budget or move on...nothing wrong with making a low offer, as long as its not absurd, and haggle from there....somewhere in the middle you shall meet.

Rich

jonbgood · June 2002

I'm getting ready to drive 5 hours one way to look at (buy if I like) a '99 Aurora with only 18k miles on it. Car fax shows off lease car - off lease in 4/02 - car fax run by dealer on 6/10/02 ( the date they bought it). Would this few miles scare you or make you suspicious? What happened to this car during the two months before the Caddy dealer bought it? Is that an indication something might be wrong? Carfax is clean for whatever thats worth. I'm trying to get warranty repair history from my local Olds. dealer but their computers were down today. I'm a little paranoid about investing this kind of drive time for the wrong deal. Thanks for any help.

beachnut · June 2002

I'm considering trading my '00 Accord SE w/29K miles for an '02 EX-V6. Reason? Well, all the goodies, of course! I owe $12,800. I'd like to walk out for $22K, prior to tax & title. Now, I realize that this is about $700 under invoice, but I'm hoping my local dealer would like to rid themselves of some stock before the new '03 hits the showroom. What do you think?

Have you noticed many red EX's around? Does the EX have the alloys with the REAL wide spokes? If so, is it possible to get a different wheel? I really think those are ugly (subjective, I know). The wheels on my '00 SE are my favorite Accord alloys for the whole 6th gen. Thanks in advance!

thel · June 2002

Depending on your area, Honda dealers may not be THAT willing to unload a car that should be easy to sell.

The EX-V6's do have the alloys with the wide spokes. Its the EX-4cly that has the neater looking narrow spokes. Honda sells a different wheel that looks pretty good but it will cost you.

bolivar · June 2002

I'm not a dealer, so don't know if I should be answering in here, but...

I bought a Cadillac off 2 year lease with less than 13,000 miles. I've looked at a Caddy off a 3 year lease with just over 4,000 miles!!!!!

People with money do strange things with lease cars....

Main thing I would say about an Aurora - this is an Oldsmobile. Oldsmobiles are dead, dead, dead. I've heard there are 2001 Aurora NEW setting on lots unsold. This doesn't seem like a car I would drive 5 hours each way to look at....

bretfraz · June 2002

My mother just turned in her lease after 3 years. Had 22K on it. Always dealer serviced. Looked and ran like new. Whoever gets that puppy will be plenty happy.

mpyne · June 2002

I printed out the carsdirect price and shopped it to a couple dealers and no one could match it, but i thought the sales person i picked up the car from was a moron. so use your own judgment. you can get a low price but get lousy service or find a good dealer who cares and pay a little more. personally next time ill find the good dealer. the sales guys are right dont worry about paying $100-$200 more if they treat you right.

masspector · June 2002

Audi hit the nail on the head...take his advice. That being said, if you really want this car, I would check other areas of the country to try to find a place that it may not be such a HOT seller. May be worth a one way plane ticket. High demand low supply vehicles like that are hard to negotiate on. You can always make a low offer and see what they say, or shop for a more available vehicle at a better price.

Don't be afraid to mention hold back. If they throw you out for uttering the word, then you probably don't need to be dealing with them anyway. Lets get real guys, shoppers know about hold back now a days, if you refuse to discuss the issue, your loss. You do not have to give the buyer any hold back, but walking them to the door for trying to discuss it, to me, seems inconsiderate.

rroyce10 · June 2002

...... Nice, clean .. low mileage vehicles are hard to find, including Auroras.

That's one vehicle, you don't have to be shy with .. as far as being "dead", I think Bolivar needs to do a little more homework, the dealers are still clamoring for them .. But, he does make some great points as far as miles. I have bought plenty of 9/12/15K 00 Caddys, and the reason why these folks trade them is: "Because they can."

A nice "baby doll" 99 Aurora with Ultra low miles, and all the toys, will still "ring" the bell in and around the $14's+ at the block .... and it's just not GM dealers bidding on em' -- it's Ford, BMW, Toyota, etc .. everyone looks for, and wants clean, reliable, sharp, low mileage vehicles in their inventory .. they sell quick ..!

Terry.

masspector · June 2002

Who supplies the numbers for invoice prices that sites like edmunds uses? I have heard on TH that the manufacturers do not supply this info. If this is true where does the invoice price info come from and how can it be so consistent across a number of websites and publications, if it is not coming from the manufacturer?

prodigalsun · June 2002

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. Guess only thing left to do is go out and try to work the deal.

And Thel, maybe that's why God stopped talking to me, gotta stop asking for them hookers 'n beer!

jonbgood · June 2002

I'm also looking at a more local deal on a 99 that is White Diamond Metallic/roof/Autobahn/Bose/12 disc/tan interior/NO chromes/NO heated seats/38K miles
They started at 19K - I offered 14k with no response - I offered 15k 2 wks later - they came back and said rock bottom is 16.2K. I said nope. They called yesterday and said what about 15.5K if I'd do deal before month end. I like the car - clean car fax - clean warranty srvc record - one owner off lease from Mississippi. I don't know if I should wait until I look at another one with half the miles that salesman said would prob. go for 17.2 (bronze mist/chromes/Bose/roof/18.2k miles/heated seats). Can't look at this car until after month end. Do you think dealer would still sell the white one after month end for 15.5? He's had it since April and NEEDS to move it - I'm sure. How critical is month end in my negotiations? Thanks.

behhpp · June 2002

I agreed to buy a 2003 Corolla on June 11. Salesman told me car would arrive June 24. Then it became June 29. I called sales manager today and he said July 6 is day of arrival, that the June 29 date is the day the Corolla hits port in Florida and that his salesman was just misreading the information he was given.

Was the first salesman lying to me, or did he just not have his facts straight? What should I do if car is not at dealer on July 6?

bretfraz · June 2002

Probably neither.

The new Corolla is super-popular right with demand far outstripping supply. Many dealers cannot keep them on their lots. I'm sure this is a case where the factory is trying to ramp up production to meet orders. I don't think there's anything a dealer can do about it except keep checking the system for info.

I'm sure Cliffy and Mackabee will chime in on this one. In the meantime, go to the Sedans conference and talk to the other Corolla owners. I'm sure you'll hear a similar story.

behhpp · June 2002

Thanks Beltfraz.

Since my post I looked on the Toyota site. No Corollas available in my area at all. Most will be available during July and August. I will just wait for the one I ordered to come in. I was confused with the changing dates, but maybe it was just the best information the dealer had from Toyota at the time.

audia8q · June 2002

Remember, you dealer does not make any money until you pay for and drive away your new car....so they want it to arrive as soon as you do!!

Rich

behhpp · June 2002

Thanks Rich,

I have to ask a question of you though if I may. There isn't any way that the dealer has sold my car to someone else, and re ordered mine?? If someone came in when the car came in and offered more money than me, is there any way a dealer would sell it to the other person, and just make me wait for mine? How do I make sure, especially if I still have no car next weekend as the sales manager promised.

Thanks.

sam_beaver · June 2002

My dealer gave me the VIN number on my car at least a week before it arrived at the dealership. If they can do that for you, that would be one way to know for sure that you were getting your car.

Unless of course you get no car at all.

isellhondas · June 2002

Sounds like someone else answered your questions on Accords. Yes, red ones around. No, do not expect to buy it for 700.00 below invoice.

jonbgood,

First of all, if you are leary of a car for whatever reason, don't buy it. Also, if you are too cautious, you may end up very frustrated.

If you REALLY want an Aurora, you shouldn't have to drive five hours. The local lots are packed with them.

behhpp · July 2002

Sam,

Thanks. I went today and got the VIN number. Craziest thing. The salesman called me today and said the car would be in "any minute." So, I went in after work, and sales manager told me July 12 is the newest date. Sounds like Toyota plant is behind schedule. Sales manager said the salesman was just dreaming because he wants the car to come in too as bad as I do. No car, no commission I guess.

masspector · July 2002

Since no one answered this question before, I will repost it in hopes of getting a reply. Maybe one of the hosts can answer it.

Who supplies the numbers for invoice prices that sites like edmunds uses? I have heard on TH that the manufacturers do not supply this info. If this is true where does the invoice price info come from and how can it be so consistent across a number of websites and publications, if it is not coming from the manufacturer?

isellhondas · July 2002

There are moles everywhere. Very little information is private anymore.

Too bad, since I guess I'm from the old school where a merchant's cost of product is for him to know.

bretfraz · July 2002

I believe Bill (brentwoodvolvo) discussed this recently. IIRC, Edmunds buys the invoice pricing from a middleman. I believe that has something to do with their pricing being off from time to time. I think KBB buys pricing as well.

AutoByTel obtains current invoice pricing since they are essentially a dealer and are given that info as a matter of business. I don't recall how CarsDirect gets their pricing.

raybear · July 2002

Most online services get their invoice pricing from middlemen such as Chrome Data.

blackcurrant · July 2002

Hi fellers...a buddy of mine is interested in one of these old fancy-shmancy beemers with 137k miles. It's one owner and supposedly well-maintained from New England. i know from previous discussions that the older highend cars tend to be expensive to repair...what should one look out for with this model? Thanks

masspector · July 2002

Where do the middlemen companies get their invoice pricing info? I am not trying to act stupid here or ask a redundant question. I guess what I am really trying to figure out is, if the manufacturers only provide this info to dealers, then who gives it out to third parties (for every make,model and, trim level of vehicle)? I could see getting it from a mole for a few companies, but not for all of them.

isellhondas · July 2002

And why does it matter?

Trust me...there are moles in every company and sadly, they are often the most trusted.

raybear · July 2002

Just ask...what difference does it make?

azldw · July 2002

I am very interested in the Hyundai Elantra GT - I just can't seem to get anyone interested in selling one to me. There's only one dealership here, and three others about 100 miles away. I've visited or called all three - seems as soon as I state that I want the 5 speed manual transmission, the conversation ends. When I suggested that I could wait to have one ordered I was told that dealers don't order Hyundai's, they're allocated once they reach port. Any ideas?

vescris · July 2002

dear dealer?

what will I get for a 98 passat 4dr gls sedan no special options - fair condition? - 100,400+ miles in so california/l.a. area? - thanks, vesc

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