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My '00 Celica had to go in for 2 recalls, neither of particular major merit, one for running lights being too bright, and the other for a master cylinder inspection. What finally made me set the appointment up was the car started throwing random Check Engine lights the past two weeks, which would stay on a day or two and go out. While I have a fair collection of tools, I don't have a reader that will pull codes from a Toyota ECU.
I took it to the closest dealer, where I typically by all my self-installed maintenance parts from. Drop it off in the morning. Authorize the OBD2 diagnostic scan ($95-pay for the scanner in 4 plug-ins). Get a call from the Service Writer, who tells me, in this order:
"Your car needs an oil change." (It has Mobil 1 in it, just put in 1500 miles ago).
Me: Huh? Why?
"Well, it is overfilled!" (This motor has a documented problem spinning rod bearings when driven enthusiastically - the easy insurance is to run it between a 1/4 and a 1/2 quart high - my car this morning was actually just over the line.)
Me: Explains the above, along with what is in it.
"Oh, you did that on purpose?
"And, you car is burning oil." (one of the glitch/features I've had, and others too, with Mobil 1 in small high rpm motors is that using a quart every 1000-2000 miles is not unusual. This car has done it since it was switched over right after break-in. No repair was offered, unless I was getting led into an upsell for a $5k engine rebuild.)
"Also, your spark plugs are worn out, and air filter and pcv valve need changing."
(These are all possibilities, however they are the OEM iridium plugs, with a change interval of 100k, which usually means lifetime. The car has 95k on it. So, OK. The air filter got done about 18 months and 23,000 miles ago, and how this car breathes junk into the airbox, I'm sure it is time. As many PCV valves as I've checked/changed over the 25 years of doing my own maintenance, I've never had one where the ball check inside was stuck. But anyway...)
"And your Mass Airflow Sensor is bad" (Don't necessarily doubt this either, but the dealer method is to R&R, where typically some appropriate application of automotive cleaner potion for electronic components will bring them back to life.)
Maybe I'm being a little sensitive. Yes I authorized the diagnostic, but the pocket picking attempt was a little to blatant for my tastes. Especially since this condition status call was the third time an oil change was brought up since I set up the appointment. Also, I was already in their system as a regular parts customer.
The bottom line is that I can do all the needed work, iridium unobtanium plugs and all, for about $250 tops at the parts counter and an hour of my time. To have them handle it would have approached $1k, assuming the MAF sensor retails for the $300-400 they usually do.
I understand the need to turn a profit in a business, I need to do that myself in my employment, but there needs to be some adaptation to the type of customer being dealt with. I know I'm a little weird in that I do my own work by and large. I also realize the majority here are on the sales side of the stores, but is this an unreasonable expectation?
Mentioning a specific person who went out of the way to assist you cant hurt either. And why not stop by if you have the chance and just drop off your manually filled out survey with the service mgr to let him know that you know how important the surveys are. Hey you might get some preferential treatment in return another time but it doesnt hurt to be nice and grease the wheels if you will. Money or tip is declasse' but cookies ?.. why not?
The survey is critical though.
I always love this part of the discussion .l.o.l..
Remember, when it comes to taxes (right or wrong) you're *guilty* until you prove yourself innocent - and depending on the state, it is tax evasion ... Mathias probably has the best feel on this one.
Terry.
Buddy, I feel your pain. I have a Yukon that I've owned since it was new, and I was getting a bit of exhaust rattle, either in the muffler or cat converter. No biggie, I figured the dealer could tell me which, and either fix the rattle or replace the offending part.
Wrongo! They came back with a big, bend over and take it up the rear estimate to: "reconfigure the exhaust", replace both exhaust manifolds, trans flush, engine flush, complete tune-up, and a few other hare-brained things that I didn't ask for. The total was a whopping $2,400. All for a little exhaust rattle. The worst part, is having to pay a $125 diagnostic fee, when all I did was ask to have a friggin' rattle in my exhaust fixed! Needless to say, that service manger will never see my business again.
Oh...and the fix was easy. Find an almost-new OEM muffler taken off a new Tahoe on Ebay for $29. With shipping and all, it came to about $90 total. Have the local indie mechanic shop install it for me, another $200...but he changed my oil, installed the muffler, rotated and balanced my tires, and did the power fuel injection cleaning for that price!
No, that isn't the only reason.... The dealer also takes car of all the paperwork, including state paperwork, license plates, registration, etc. There is a definite convenience in working through a dealer to do this.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Take the car for a good long test drive though maybe even overnight if they will let you to make sure the car isn't doggy. You don't find to many doggy hondas but every once in a while you will.
In this case no tax court will find it as tax evasion. similar cases have been accepted by the courts so unless someone can prove it was illegal you will be safe.
2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D
An "in and out" is murky at best and we won't do them.
The dealer is BUYING the car and then SELLING it to the new owner. Any smart dealer will insist on running the car through the shop and doing at least a safety inspection on it. It may very well need brakes, tires and other things replaced that the first person thought were just fine.
And then, the transmission decides to leave this world a week later? Guess who's on the hook?
No thanks!
Well, that's pretty much what car dealers do... heck, I've been known to do it myself :-)
And then, the transmission decides to leave this world a week later?
So what?
I understand why some dealers won't do in&outs, it's their choice, but I still don't see the problem.
At least in MI, the dealer can tell the buyer to go climb a tree... "AS IS".
I had a conversation with the UC mgr at the Subie dealer by my house... I asked him about a car he had on the lot that was strictly a wholesale piece.. he said absolutely no problem selling me something with high miles and "as is -- where is"... we didn't do the deal in the end, but he was very straightforward about it.
There's a federal sticker in every car that has a place where you can check "AS IS -- NO WARRANTY". What are we to suppose that means?
I just don't see the big deal. Maybe OR is different...
-Mathias
Mathias - I'm well aware of that. I was discussing the situation with a vehicle you own outright. IMHO, it's silly to buyout a lease vehicle just to sell it right away. Worse than just paying the sales tax on the used car is the fact that you've already paid the full sales tax on it when it was leased (as least here in MA).
Actually, I think one can avoid the sales tax when buying the leased vehicle by not registering it. Here in MA, you don't pay the sales tax until you register it. No registration, no tax.
Not in MA. IIRC every used car sold through a dealer has to be warrantied in some fashion.
That is an interesting point. If the residual is lower than the trade-in value of the car, do I have to pay taxes on the residual if I trade the car to a dealer for a new car? I live in Virginia, if it makes any difference.
On your trade - the lease for example - you already paid the full tax on the original sales price back when you took the lease out; e.g. $25000 transaction price x 3% = $750 taxes paid . Thus when you 'trade' it in or if you were to buy it outright you dont owe any taxes.
Therefore if you have positive equity vis-a-vis the residual value it's just pure cash in your pocket or additional downpayment. No taxes due.
Is that correct??
Thanks for any info.
All I'm saying is for a low/no profit deal it just isn't worth the trouble and risks.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
Your answer makes a lot of sense, however, I am confused.
I guess the salesman who sold me the van was “confused”.
And if you live in the City of Chicago, you get to pay both city and county taxes on a new car lease. I don't know what the rates are today but 10yrs ago that meant you paid 13% sales tax on a LEASED vehicle. Oh, and the city charged you a wheel tax of $90/yr (that one has prolly gone up too).
Welcome to Illinois!!!!
USA Today
So if you really pay double on the lease residual that is effectively 18%!
What is the purpose of these 'tax' discussion?
Each state has widely varing applications of taxes on new, used, trade-in, lease, etc etc etc.
It's counter-productive to discuss this, especially the ones that state 'No, that's not right, here is how it's done!'. When it only pertains to one state.
Now, it would be fine for someone to ask 'How are taxes or fees or licensing applied to a such-and-such transaction in the state of XX'. Then let someone from State XX answer to the best of his knowledge.
Otherwise, most of the postings on this subject is just wasted bandwidth.
On a used car, tax is calculated excluding any trade (new car dealers have a better lobby group)
On leasing a car, all the sales tax is paid up front on the lease, rather than monthly.
Ohio is fast becoming a state of old or less educated people, so they have to keep coming up with new ways to generate more tax dollars to keep the inefficient state government lurching along.
So what?
I understand why some dealers won't do in&outs, it's their choice, but I still don't see the problem.
At least in MI, the dealer can tell the buyer to go climb a tree... "AS IS".
Yeah, but let's face it, a lot of people have a major blind spot when it comes to "AS IS" or "NO REFUNDS" signs. They believe they are entitled to return anything, anytime and will turn the thing into a holy war if someone tells them they can't.
So, here's some clarification on my situation and intent. Here in MO (Missouri), you don't pay sales tax up front on a lease but rather on each monthly payment. That means no tax has been collected on the end-of-lease residual value of the vehicle. As a result, if you buy your own car off lease, you DO owe sales tax on the purchase price, and you DO have to register it, and pay, to get the clean title in order to sell it. Assume with me that the car in question is worth a couple grand more than the lease residual value.
My original question DID ask if I could avoid paying sales tax by having a dealer do an in and out. My intent was to pay the dealer for the trouble. After both you guys and an in-person dealer telling me that's not likely, I fully accepted that it wouldn't happen, and I understand why.
My follow up idea is/was this - since the car is still worth more than the lease-end purchase price, I should be able to make some money. Would a used-car guy at a dealership ever just buy the car from me? In other words, walk into a local Nissan store, find the UC guy and ask what he'd give me for the car. Then, assuming it's more than the buy-out price, accept his offer, he'd pay off Nissan and cut me a check for the difference (for ex.: buyout $13K, car private party value $15K (dealer retail maybe $15.5K?), dealer buys from me for $14 K, I make $1K, dealer can still retail the car, making $1.5K less expenses).
Seems to boil down to: do dealers ever just buy cars from guys off the street?
Interested to get all your thoughts.
Squirrel
I'm not a dealer. Yes dealers buy cars from guys off the street every day. But it has to be worth their while. I think $1.5K may not be enough for most.
Carmax does exactly that.
I do know one person that lucked out and had her lease vehicle worth quite a bit more than the residual (timed the SUV craze right). So, she was able to trade it in on a new one, and applied the positive equity.
But, I bet it doesn't actually happen that often.
2020 Acura RDX tech SH-AWD, 2023 Maverick hybrid Lariat luxury package.
My BIL has had positive equity applied to his last 2 leases, trading in an Integra and a Accord EX V6 coupe - both leased thru Honda dealership financing.
Keep in mind.. the dealers don't necessarily pay the residual price.. especially, if it were set artificially high at the time of the lease.. A lot of lease returns go through the auction, and the dealers buy them at the market wholesale price.. This is a number that is much more useful... You only need that lease residual number, if you are looking to buy the car from the lessee...
regards,
kyfdx
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I got very lucky with the 99 Odyssey that we leased in November of 98 when they first hit the showroom. We traded it on an 01 Accord in May of 01 and got $3K more than the lease buyout.
On leases... some states charge you the same sales tax as if you bought the car (TX, IL, etc). And some of them AGAIN charge tax on the car if you buy it out (IL) and some do not.
Some charge you tax on the payment (FL, MO, etc)
Some charge tax on the difference between the cap cost and the residual (NJ).
Not all states give you a tax credit for the trade-in.
And with regards to the pass-through, some states REQUIRE a car to pass a state safety inspection or be capcable of passing if sold. Some states require a car to be smogged.
So e have a Range Rover that needs tires and brakes to, I would assume, pass a state safety inspection. Assuming it's got the usual 18s.. that's about $1,000+++ for new shoes. Brakes? $500 internal if it's just pads. And what else?
On top of that we still need to handle the DMV Paperwork, have a finance manager handle the transaction, book the car into inventory, explain to the used car manager who is likely paid on averaging a certain amount per copy why we did a "$0" deal...etc.
In other words.. assume all the risk and at the very least make nothing? I don't think any intelligent businessperson would do that.
Then you got to put new brakes and tires and, if the lease was say a 30 month 15k one you know the guy who leased the car originaly probably did not do either, and the car needs both. So there is another couple of 1000 plus whatever detail /reconditing costs there might be as well.
Bottom line you can't know what the dealer paid for a used car cause every used car is unique. The carfax will probably tell you how the car was aquired as well. Normaly it says if the car was put up for auction.
Don't concern yourself with what the dealer paid for the car concern yourself with what you will pay. As long as you are happy with the price you got and feel you paid a fair price then everything should be fine.
I know the tax situation in Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah but it is interesting to read about GREEDY tax structure in other states.
It also informs prospective buyers where they can purchase a vehicle without being ripped off as much in sales and use taxes, documentary fees, dealer add-ons, additional dealer profit, etc. :shades:
For the record, EVERY state collects taxes differently than the other states. Utah gets it from higher personal and business taxes than some other states. It is all based on how the legislature decides to do it. If people disapprove on how it is done, they generally tos the bums out. Ask the Tennessee ex-governor who thought the state should have an income tax.
I do know that most Illinois residents would not accept the level of education that you get from the very underfunded Utah public schools.
Ouch. I got an excellent education in an underfunded Utah public school, including 6 AP classes completed in high school. Not sure why you would take that potshot. Keep in mind that Utah has the highest birth rate in the US, which directly affects the per pupil spending.
My only direct experience with Chicago is with the pizza, which is outstanding. Unless you have direct experience with Utah public schools kindly keep your opinions to yourself. What this has to do with cars I have no idea, so I expect the hosts to bring the hammer down shortly.
-Jason
I am looking to trade in my car, but I would only likely do that to receive the tax credit of my trade in value to decrease the taxes on my leased vehicle.
BTW, I was also educated in Utah, but I am not naive enough to believe that spending $1000 less per pupil provides the same quality of education. Exceptional students will do well under most any system, its the one's who struggle to keep up that suffer when you don't spend a little money to help them out.