Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

ssaclub · September 2002

Hate to sound naive, but then again, I don't buy cars every day....

When you walk into a dealership and nearly the first thing you hear is "you're not going to get this at less than sticker price?" It's hard to know what that means - does it mean, "I'm telling this to everyone that walks in the door in the hopes that they'll believe it?" or "This is where I'm starting on my price position, but I'm willing to chat a bit about it."

I don't have an issue with a dealer being honest about what they think fair value is (that's good!), but it throws off the buyer when it's brought up so early in the conversation without any attempt to build rapport and get to what the customer wants.

Comment?

cfg1 · September 2002

I think it depends on what car you were looking at? Does it really command MSRP or not?

manamal · September 2002

do your research...find out what the fair cost is.

thel · September 2002

If you're planning on keeping it long enough for the resale value to not be as much of an issue, make real sure you get what you want and what you may want years and years down the line.

raybear · September 2002

Ted, if it's the Accord from your profile, just hold off a month or two. Prices are coming down.

gfelker · September 2002

A simple question but I am not sure how to approach it.

I am buying a new car and selling my old car to a different dealer (Carmax) on the same day.

How should I handle the transfer of tags/plates. I will still need a plate on my old car to drive it to Carmax, so I cannot just transfer them to the new car as I have always done before.

How should this be handled? Any thoughts?
Thanks
Mike

robr2 · September 2002

Every state has different rules so check with your local RMV/DMV for info.

raybear · September 2002

Just ask your new car dealer.

masspector · September 2002

Whatever happened to the idea of being able to personalize a car to what the buyer wants?

If I remember correctly didn't the Mustang start the idea that you could order a laundry list of packages or single options and get a car just like you wanted?

I have noticed in recent car shopping that some manufacturers offer no options (Acura,Honda) or the dealers order vehicles with only certain options and packages and even though the manufacturer brochure and website say an option is available, you cannot find it at a dealer (Toyota,Infiniti).

I understand dealers ordering what sells the best in their area and manufacturers wanting consistent assembly lines for economic reasons. But it is very frustrating to a buyer to either not have any options to pick from, or being told by the dealer that it is a major pain to order a car the way the buyer wants it.

Juat wanted to see what you guys opinions on this were. Thanks

dtwleungnyc · September 2002

You could order a car to be exactly what you want. You just have to wait for it, and in some cases, might even need to put down a non-refunable deposit. I actually saw an ES300 with cloth seat and no sunroof. Betcha the resale on that car is lovely.

rroyce10 · September 2002

.... I would bet they would knock down the Outhouse doors, to get too that one .......

Terry :-))

bobst · September 2002

In the old days with American cars, every car had a different set of options, and it was very difficult to compare prices between dealers.

Now, with every Honda Accord LX being identical, I can easily go from dealer to dealer and find whose price is best. Car buying is much easier than it used to be, and car prices are unbelievably low.

For example, the invoice price on Hondas has increased about 1% a year since 1995. Those of us who survived the huge price increases in the 70's can recall how bad it used to be. In the entire history of the world, this is the most wonderful time to be alive (especially since I can retire in two weeks).

Bob

rerenov8r · September 2002

There are still wide variations in 'asking price' between Honda dealers.

I find this very perplexing. Do the dealers who put the "AMV" lines on the window sticker simply thrive on the stupidity of buyers? Is this some sort of sinister plan that was dreamed up by a some new car sales manager who is famous to insiders?

Just how exactly do vehicles that Honda is committed to build in the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS justify a premium to be "first on your block"? Won
t you be "one of the hoard" in a few weeks?

bretfraz · September 2002

Honda, like most all Japanese auto mfrs, have been producing and selling cars this way since they first started importing them to the US. Limiting the number of options and changes a customer can make keeps prices down and quality up. It's a much simpler method of auto mfr'ing. It's worked great for Honda since the 70s so don't expect them to change.

For example, when the Accord came out in 1976, it was available only as a 3 door hatchback. Only choices were a few colors and auto or manual tranny. That's it. Even when Honda introduced the Accord sedan they didn't add to the options list. Same with the Civic, Prelude, and so on. Most of the "options" were actually dealer-installed. Everything from AC to vinyl tops to Continental kits to pin stripes were all installed by dealers, not the factory.

tiredofmanual · September 2002

My buddy just got into an accident this morning in his CL typeS. My untrained eye says he needs a new bumper, fender, and headlight. Obviously, it's going to be fixed through insurance (and luckily for him the police say it was the other drivers fault and even issued the other guy a ticket), but he is a little worried about when he turns the car in. He's leasing it and is worried that he might have to pay when he turns the car in because of this accident. I don't think he would, but maybe someone with a little more knowledge can help. Thanks!

dtwleungnyc · September 2002

make sure he gets the repair done at a certified shop. By that I mean a place the dealership would recommend, not some shade tree mechanic. As long as everything is done right by the book, your friend should have no trouble turning the car in at lease end. Maybe Terry and other sales folk can elaborate further.

CarMan@Edmunds · September 2002

Hi tiredofmanual. Interestingly enough, I actually know someone who was in an accident in a leased Acura CL a few years ago. They had it repaired at a repair shop that can be described as average at best and everything turned out fine. AHFC did not charge them for any excess wear and tear at all, neither for the accident or for the myriad of unassociated dings and scratches that the car had on it. The independent evaluation company that they use was surprisingly lenient in their evaluation of this car's condition. Of course this will likely vary somewhat depending upon the individual who is physically doing the inspection of the car or truck. As dtwleungnyc mentioned in the previous post, make sure that your friend takes their CL to the best repair shop possible. There is no reason to risk getting substandard repairs, especially when it is on somebody else's dime. Perhaps their dealership can recommend a good body shop, then if he has any problems down the road with his car's evaluation he can always tell them that he went to the shop that his dealer recommended.

Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards

timadams · September 2002

I can certainly see both sides of the option issue. Having standard model lines with no options certainly makes it easy to shop and buy a Honda. But if you want leather seats but no sunroof, for example, you're out of luck. I think I could handle the added complexity in return for getting exactly what I want.

rroyce10 · September 2002

..... Yep, use the Honda dealers repair center .. so IF stuff hit's the fan, you went by factory specs via the dealer.

Car_man is right on the AHFC deal, depending on the area of the country, they can be the most lenient .. but, if you cover your butt with a Factory center, you should see no problemo.

Terry.

masspector · September 2002

Sometimes you cannot get exactly what you want. I recently shopped a 2002 Infiniti QX4. I wanted 2wd, with no sunroof. No dealer had one in the whole country. I was not in a hurry so I said order one. The salesman said they could not. One sales guy said they were limited in what they could order from the factory and they had to get the sunroof with the 2wd models. I checked Infinit website and it listed the sunroof as a stand alone option.

I called Infiniti CS and they finally put me in touch with the QX4 engineering group. The problem was that I had caught them in between model year runs. All of the 2002's were built and shipped, the 2003 model was not ramping up for 3 months. A wait of 5 to 6 months was a little much to me. I also learned that only 10% of QX4's did not have a sunroof and only 5% did not have the premium package.

Thanks for the replies, and I understand the whole common production line. One thing that is better now a days is that there are many features standard that were options a few years ago. I think the domestic makes may be more flexible on options and order times since they are located in the US already.

isellhondas · September 2002

I don't know where you live but, here in the Northwest, a used QX4 with 2WD and no sunroof would be saleproof as a used car. It would literally rot on the lot so to say.

The loaded 4WD QX4's are hard enough to sell.

Might not matter in your area?

bretfraz · September 2002

The last truck I'd want is one w/o a roof and Premium pkg. Here in the SE going 2WD is OK but lots of people go 4WD anyway.

I'm with Isell. On the used car market a luxury-brand premium vehicle without a moonroof is very undesirable. Almost everyone in the market for a used vehicle like that wants them loaded to the hilt. It's not just the locale, it's the customer base.

rroyce10 · September 2002

..... Ouch .. It's bad enough it's a 2WD -- But that my friend would be the "kiss of death" .. Just kick off another $3/$4,000++ at trade or sale time.

About 3 months ago, a 17k 00 A6 Quattro ran through an auction with Cloth interior and No slider ... it was no-saled at $16 .. I hear the dealer went to Home Depot, picked up 200lbs of potting soil and made a planter out of it .... l.o.l....

Terry.

tiredofmanual · September 2002

Thanks for the advice. I convinced him to call up the dealership service department and ask for a recommendation. The shop they recommended was on the list of approved ones from his insurance company, so he made an appointment to drop it off there on Monday.

timadams · September 2002

I'd welcome a luxomobile with no sunroof if I could save significant jingle. That Quattro sounds like a steal. Of course, there would be the same problem on the back end, but might it not make as much of a difference at 5 years old with 60k miles on the clock?

rbrenton88 · September 2002

I always get the sunroof, and I really like having it, but I realize I actually open it 2x per year.

If you can't advoid getting one because that's the way they all come, I'd suggest sealing up the hole with plywood and nails.

masspector · September 2002

I usually drive cars about 100,000 miles or so, so I am not worried that much about resale. Does it make that much difference in 6 or 7 years with 100,000 miles on it? I am also in the SE. I always look at what is coming out of my pocket right now at the inital buy. That is a fact. We may have nuclear winter in two years and then what will it be worth in trade? If I traded every 2 to 3 years I would be more concerned about resale value.

rbrenton---Bingo...cars I have owned or friends cars with sunroofs rarely get opened, even in our milder climate. My reasoning is why pay $1,000 to $2,000 more for an option that I will rarely use? I have had several cars with no sunroof and never missed having one.

If they are not used that much, why does everyone have to have one if they buy a car used?

bret--thank you for the kind words refering to the QX4 as a luxury vehicle...many others do not infer that staus on Infiniti. I think the QX4 has some areas for improvement, but it is a capable SUV that can actually go off road ( not that I ever do), and it has a lot of standard features for a great price.

timadams brings up a good point. Many buyers would love to have a car that reflects them. However, at today's dealerships, those that want a more personal vehicle are swept away by the same cookie cutter models. Due to manufacturing efficencies and dealer surveys, all the lots look basically the same for the same brand and model. While I agree this makes it easier to compare dealers and shop price, I for one would like some more flexibility and choice.

I do understand that manufacturers and dealers are going to go for their biggest market, that only makes sense. They are not going to manufacture based on 10% of their sales. I am sure the salesmen would hate it, but I would love to sit down at the desk and go over a 2 page long option sheet to get exactly what I wanted in a vehicle.

landru2 · September 2002

mass,
You don't understand why someone would pay extra for a sunroof they rarely use but you are happy to pay for your truck's off-road capabilities which you never use.

tboner · September 2002

I'd not choose a sunroof. It makes the car flex more, and at the very limits, it usually impacts handling in a negative way. Not to mention it makes the car heavier. Ditto for power options, maybe even leather in the extreme.

But them I'm from the school that if it doesn't make the car go faster, stop faster, or turn faster (with the exception of A/C) I probably don't need it

And I know I'm in the minority also.

Since many here say buy the car you want, the if you don't want a sunroof, don't buy one.

However, you have to understand that it will impact trade/resale values.

TB
Who has seen the top speed of his SVT Contour

masspector · September 2002

Maybe I missed something, but when I was at the infinti dealer, the salesman did not show me the non offroad capable QX4. Is that a different model? Thats like you trying to sell an F150 to a customer that wants a truck, but will not use the bed very often, so can you please leave that part of the truck off?

You are comparing apples and oranges. The design and ruggedness of a vehisle is inherent in its design. A sunroof is an option.

And I was not "happy" to pay more for an offroad suv. I knew I would never go offroad so I started out looking at car based suv's first. I did not like the offerings in my price range, so I expanded my search. In fact I liked the ride of some other models better. But to me, the QX4 offered the best "value" for the money. The sales guys talk on here alot about value. The QX4 met the most of my needs, with the least negatives, in the price range that I wanted to pay. It was not a perfect buy, but the best at the time that I was looking. Now that I have had it a while, I am getting more use to the ride, and it feels more substantial on the road than many of the car based suv's that I test drove.

masspector · September 2002

Your not the only one like that.

Back in my younger days, I bought a brand new 1983 Mustang GT with cloth interior and no A/C in the SE. Hows that for resale value? The only option was rubber floor mats.

bbmoe · September 2002

I have a deposit down on a 2001 Audi A6.Low mileage, low price. Too good to be true? Did carfax. Checked out OK. Dealer said they sold the car to original owner. Owner traded it in with 11,000 miles! I am suspisious. Can I demand to see car service history? Must they provide it? If so can I get my deposit back? I live in Illinois.

rroyce10 · September 2002

..... I'm kinda lost .. what is the reason for being suspect .? especially with the Carfax being fine.

There is tons of vehicles that get traded-in with ultra low miles everyday, the biggest reason is - they can.

Check with the dealer, I'm sure he will give you the previous owners #, if the owner doesn't mind.

If you don't mind me asking, whats the price and the options on the vehicle .?

Terry.

landru2 · September 2002

I'll try to make it clearer.

You claimed to not understand why someone would want a sunroof they will rarely use. I'm sure many people do not understand why someone would pay more to buy a vehicle whose capabilities they will never use.

Understand? :^)

masspector · September 2002

Let me try to understand:

If you are talking about in general, people buying a vehicle with capabilites they will never use and having to pay more for them, then I agree with you,I do not understand that. An example of this would be paying extra for a towing package when you do not own a boat or motor home and do not plan on buying one.

If you are talking about my specific purchase of an offroad capable suv when I will probably never take it off road, I did get a vehicle with more capability than I needed, but I did not pay more for this capability (added value). All of the none offroad suv's that I looked at that were cheaper, for one reason or another did not fit my needs.

If you are talking about the fact that a lot of suv's are sold that only do highway driving, I guess that is a society thing. I can't answer that one. Many would say the extra hauling capacity, extra safety, and the higher ride hgt.

Getting back to the first reason, that is what I was trying to say. When people shop for vehicles on a dealer lot these days, many end up paying for options that they do not need or want or will not use, just because the manufacturer has decided to make them that way, or all of the dealers order them that way. That why I said, for me, somewhat more flexibility in options and packages would be preferable.

nyccarguy · September 2002

are going to order and stock what sells. If you want, you can order a car from the factory (and possibly have to pay a little more).

masspector · September 2002

Please read my post, several back, about the fact that I could not order a vehicle the way I wanted. Also, the Japanese makes either do not provide individual options (Honda) or have a really long order time (up to 6 months for Toyota). I have read other posters in TH say that Toyota dealers usually discourage customers from ordering vehicles because of the long time it takes to get them to the US.

nyccarguy · September 2002

I actually like the way Honda sells cars (only certain color combinations & only certain things come on certain trim levels, no options).

Many people want a camry or corolla equipped in similar fashion so I don't know if it is worth it to a toyota dealer to special order a car for you.

The best way to go if you want a great car at a great price and get everything you want in it is to order a BMW via the company's wonderful European Delivery program.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic or condesending, just telling you how I think it works.

A different example of this would be my father's plumbing supply business. It is located in a terrible area in the Bronx. 99% of his customers who come in looking for a toilet or bathtub want it in white. Now my father will special order a Bahama Pink Toilet and a Sea Foam Green Bathtub for you, but it will take a lot more time to get and will cost significantly more then the white ones available immediately in his warehouse.

masspector · September 2002

No offense taken..you have some great comments.

I kinda started this discussion by asking others opinions on the way car options are handled nowadays. No right or wrong answer. I was just curious because a lot of car books on the mustang say that the fact that you could order so many different individual options on that car revolutionzed car buying in the sixties. Customers liked that they could pick their own engine, trans, interior and add many other single options. It feels like that flexibilty and personalization has been lost in the car industry today, to cookie cutter models made for the "largest" segment of buyers.

My preference would be for flexibility in option choice. Others like the fact that the cars are optioned similarly so they can compare price easier. I understand that makers and dealers want to have what they percieve sells. That makes business sense and my wants or desires is not going to change the auto industry.

In your example of your father's plumbing store. Do you think if he had one or two pink or green toilets available that they might sell? Maybe the customers always buy white because that is all that is available.

nyccarguy · September 2002

I think it is all perception on the consumer's point of view. Take BMW for instance (and I'm just using the bavarians as an example). They advertise that a base 325i starts around $27,000. Now the base 325i gets you a lot of standard equipment, but there's a lot of equipment that is optional. The options get expensive too. When you hear BMW, you think luxury marquee. Well, to most people a luxury car has a sunroof, automatic transmission, leather seats, power seats, heated seats, wood trim... The $27,000 BMW is now a $36,000 BMW. Whether you get individual options or order them in a package, people (regular people, not BMW loyals) perceive this as BMW "nickel & diming" the consumer (The guy down the road selling Acura TL Type S' at invoice uses this to his advantage).

Now the BMW loyalist's take on this is that they can option the car the way they want it and it will take longer to get and they're willing to deal with that.

Now for a luxury marquee, I like the way that BMW does it. It works well for them and people are willing to pay a premuim to get it that way.

I like the way Honda does it. As I've stated before (as have others), only offering certain interiors with certain colors lets them cut down on inventory costs. Honda is getting much better at offering more choices than it was even in the early 90's.

Take Jeep for example. Back in 1995 (I can't vouch for them now, but I'm not sure how much has changed) my father was able ot order a Grand Cherokee Laredo with every single possible stinkin' option that was equal to the price of the Limited model. To me that doesn't make sense. It was nice that they were able to get him the vehicle that he wanted, but look at the profit per vehicle difference between the Japanese, Domestics, and Europeans. That's why they sell cars, to make money.

All hail the mighty dollar (or Yen or Euro).

To answer your question, he does have a few toilets in different colors that have been sitting in his warehouse for about 3 years. They're all special orders that were cancelled.

jmh8 · September 2002

I am looking at a 2000 Maxima Se with only 15k miles. It is loaded with every option. The dealer has it listed at 20995. What is a reasonable offer to make? I have looked on edmunds and blue book and it seems this is a serious mark-up, especially since the new body style is coming out in 2k4. Would love your input. Thanks

rerenov8r · September 2002

Try asking this question in "Real World Trade-In Values", the main poster (lately) rroyce seems to be very good , especially with the luxury/near luxury vehicles.

mark156 · September 2002

Just drove my friends new 2003 BMW 745i. Wow, what a nice car! Only problem, you could never give the car to a valet to park. This car had "push button" start/stop. No one would know that you have to push the key fob in a slot (all the way) to activate the start/stop button. Also, figuring out how to change gears was a adventure in itself.

Do you (dealers) think BMW has gone too far on gadgetry? Also, do you think these are slow sellers because of it?

Just curious, Mark

timadams · September 2002

I think your concerns are right on the money regarding the BMW 745. I've read a couple of recent updates in car magazines about "real world" problems with the gadgetry. Cars being in shops for days for problems that would be fixed quick and simple on other cars, but are difficult due to the complexity and computer controls on the 745.

While the "gee whiz" factor might be way up there, so is the "aw crap" factor.

rbrenton88 · September 2002

I have a powder-blue toilet in one of the bathrooms. Do you know how hard it was to find a matching replacement seat?
Gimme white any day!

rroyce10 · September 2002

..... Even with all the research that BMW has done, all the ultra high Tech toys and all the different market studies .. I think they are gasping for a little air right now ....

Playing with a tennis ball to work all those toys, just ain't getting it. Having to look 2/3 times at the vehicle to make sure what it is, sure makes it not worth the 80 grand.

I have bought, driven and sold a bunch of the previous "7's", personally I love em' .. But I have a feeling with the new "7', with the dealers sitting on 3/4 months of inventory, lot's of lookers and not to many buyers, they are gonna be hard pressed to push the buttons to drop this puppy .. Benz and Lexus will have a field day with this one.

Terry.

viper0074 · October 2002

Hi. How hard/easy is it to start a car dealer from scratch? Can I just call up Honda or Toyota and say "I'd like to be a dealer."? Or, would I be forced to buy an existing dealer from someone else? I've always thought it'd be nice to sell cars, but I wouldn't know where to start. Thanks.

steine13 · October 2002

A new-car dealership should be easy to open; know anybody willing to lend you $5,000,000 or so?
Terry can fill you in on the details.

A used-car operations can be done very much cheaper, but it probably just means you'll be losing your shirt more slowly... this is a funny business, and you really have to know what you're doing... if I had that plan, I'd start as a salesman somewhere, work a few different stores, watch very carefully, try to work in every department for a while, F&I, used cars etc.

There's tons of used-car operations around here, and a lot of them look like they're done on a shoestring.. I believe it's a potential gold mine, but there are many pitfalls. Not for the faint of heart.

Good luck, Peter!
Encouragingly yours,
-Mathias
East Lansing, MI

dtwleungnyc · October 2002

The guy down the block where I live is turning the neighborhood into his own display lot. Bascially, he either buy used cars off the street or from auction. Then park them on the street with a for sale sign on it. I am not happy with it, the police department is more than happy to give him tickets for each car parked on the street (since they have no tag, inspection sticker or license). And from the look of it, some of my neighbors don't like it either, as some of his cars windows are getting smashed.

volvomax · October 2002

Your better off throwing your money down a sewer.

Although if your a minority or female both Ford and GM have programs where they will teach you how to be a dealer and your buy in is less than if you had to do it on your own.
We just had a lady intern in our dealership(Volvo)
who is going thru the program.

Seriously, its no way to make money. If only you knew all the expenses, taxes, costs, overhead you'd wonder how anyone stays in business.
Thats why there are so many Mega-groups out there. They can spread those fixed expenses over several stores, so you have one accounting dept or bodyshop etc for all your stores.
I'm fortunate enough to work for a family owned-mom and pop store, and we do well most of the time, but there are times when you can't do all you'd like to be able to do because of the expenses. Or you have to write a check to cover payroll etc when the store loses money.

As for used cars what dtw is talking about is a curbstone approach and its frowned upon everywhere. State laws usually require a dealers license if you sell so many cars per year.

What I'd recommend you do if you have the bankroll is get a license and become a wholesaler, open a small lot and see if you like all the b.s. that goes w/ the business.

Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

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