Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

stevation · November 2002

I posted last week about whether Nissan might be offering killer deals to get rid of some 2002 Pathfinders. I found my deal last weekend, and I think it was a pretty good one. Got an SE with "popular package" and sunroof package for $26,676, plus tax and fees. That's almost $5,000 below MSRP and about $2,000 below what Edmunds says invoice is with the options. A dealer advertised two at that price, but they were manual trans, so I found another dealer who would match it on an automatic. Was the color we wanted, too. I do think they tried to make up for the lack of profit by offering a very low price for our trade in, so I just put a little cash down and am trying to sell the would-be trade-in on my own. So, did I score a good deal on this? I haven't bought a new car since my 1990 Honda Civic. It wasn't too bad, but sitting in the dealership for 2.5 hours on my wife's birthday wasn't a lot of fun!

stevation · November 2002

Er, well, I guess I was so excited I exaggerated a bit. I checked again, and make that $2,000 below _Edmunds TMV_ with the options. It's about $1,000 below invoice. Still a killer deal? I'm happy! Also got 2.9% financing for 5 years. It would have been hard to pass up.

dreamer12 · November 2002

An ad listed a dealer discount amt($900), a rebate amt($2000) and a BONUS cash amt($1000) and subtracted all that from the MSRP. It's for a 2003 Impala. I know there's some creative math going on here and according to Edmund's TMV thing I'll actually be paying over 300$ more than the average going price. (That's subtracting the dealer's $900 disc. from the msrp and not including the rebate or the BONUS cash.) The rebate is self-explanitory but what is this "Bonus cash"? A salesman said it was from the factory. If this Bonus was from the factory to the dealer and he's sharing it with me (cough) then maybe I won't sweat the $300 diff. If it's some other factory to customer thing then I'll want to get his car price at least down to the TMV which I would consider fair. Any thoughts on this?

mackabee · November 2002

for those of you that use kbb.com read the part under "Condition of trade" it says something to the effect "most consumer vehicles fall under this category" that would be for "good" condition. Rarely if ever do we take trades in "excellent" condition.
: )
Mackabee

Kirstie_H · November 2002

Hi, I'm a reporter at the L.A. Daily News and am looking for Southern
California car buyers to talk to for an article on financing. I want to hear your stories asap about deciding between buying new, buying used or leasing. I'm at 818.713.3634, or email your number to
cosmicpen777@hotmail.com and I'll call. I'm wrapping up the story today, so call or write asap, no later than Thursday, November 14, 2002.

Thanks, Barbara Correa, Los Angeles Daily News

zueslewis · November 2002

I'm not in California, but I've written F&I in CA, OR, WA, WY and Texas if I can help - have your reporter contact me via e-mail.

CarMan@Edmunds · November 2002

Hi Dreamer12. General Motors bonus cash incentives are different from traditional consumer cash offers in that they can be combined with all other programs. So for example, while the traditional $2,000 consumer cash that is available on the car that you are interested in may only be used instead of the special lease program or special financing program, the $1,000 bonus cash may be combined with the regular consumer cash to total $3,000 on cash purchases or those financed through banks other than GMAC, or the $1,000 may be used in conjunction with their special financing and lease programs. Basically bonus cash is offered directly from the factory and may be combined with all other offers.

Car_man
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candyman85233 · November 2002

I went to another dealer today to see what he had on hand for 02 sebring convertibles, and he had 3. One with 50 miles, one with 150 and the third one he showed me had almost 1,000 miles on it! I told him, that should be a demo car, and he said he would go into his holdback to make it worthwhile to me. I drove it, and it pulled to one side and seemed 'loose'. However, it was in the color I wanted, but oh well...

The search continues...also I found out my $23000 was too low. He let me walk when that is what I offered him today. Guess its not my year to buy a new car.

rroyce10 · November 2002

..... Curious, it sounds like your search is getting frustrating .. were you looking for limited, Lxi, ? I mighta' missed that part, it seems like your offer might be a little low ..

Terry.

stretchsje · November 2002

If I custom order a new car (Mazda6), which will be in high production, can I negotiate a lower price on the assumption that by the time I take delivery, dealers won't be able to ask MSRP?

Besides, it's not sitting on their lot at all anyway. That saves them money. I was wondering if my order would get added to or subtracted from their normal allotment of vehicles, but then I realized there shouldn't be restricted allotments. There will be plenty of these cars to go around for everybody. So can I negotiate?

bretfraz · November 2002

"I will gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today".

That Mazda 6 offer sounds like that in a way. "Gimme a volume discount today since you'll be selling them cheaper soon". I wouldn't hold my breath. Why would any dealer just hand over a skinny deal when they can likely sell them at full pop to someone else?

Besides, if you order a car today and decide you want to unwind the deal because you think you can get one cheaper, expect the dealer to keep your deposit.

eyetou · November 2002

Is there a diff. in price of a used 1996 Plymouth Breeze in US states? I heard in Alabama are the highest prices for used-cars in general. What about other states? If so, are they any more price - differences among states

zueslewis · November 2002

like a 4x4 would be worth less in Florida, where it's not mandatory, versus North Dakota, where it is mandatory.

Alabama certainly doesn't hold any premium on used cars, considering the average income is fairly low - higher prices would put dealers out of business. Bear in mind that the bank won't let a dealer sell a vehicle for much more than it's worth, unless the buyer is a real sucker and drops a large downpayment for no reason.

98jettavr6 · November 2002

Many of you assumed I had not done my research on the vehicle before I made the $20K offer. A number of you also assumed that I am not ready to buy today. Both assumptions are false. In the DC area, dealers are marking Expeditions up to ridiculous prices. One dealer showed he paid at auction for one of these trucks, & he marked the price up $8,000!

I can walk onto any lot today with my reasearch & financing done. I don't need to beg a dealer for a thing. The trick is finding an honest car salesman - an oxymoronic phrase if there ever was one.

brianw220 · November 2002

Here's the beauty of the whole thing: A dealer doesn't have to beg you for anything either on an in-demand vehicle. Furthermore, I would submit that the world is equally devoid of honest buyers. Have a nice day.

isellhondas · November 2002

You'll probably do better and have a more enjoyable experience if you leave your attitude at the door when you walk in.

It's the prevailing MARKET that always determines pricing, not your "research".

Also, you speak of "honesty". I have to ask you..if you truly made an offer that was accepted but then reneged on your offer, how ethical was that? did I miss something?

Good luck in your quest...

98jettavr6 · November 2002

what offer did I renege on?

zueslewis · November 2002

You stated you gave a $20K offer, but didn't follow through because you wanted to see if the $20K would fit a newer rig. See, I have a memory!

Seriously, market value determines lots of factors when buying a vehicle. What the dealer bought a vehicle for is irrelevant to what it is sold for. If someone was foolish enough to unload their vehicle for less than wholesale, why wouldn't a dealer snap it up? Wouldn't you?

98jettavr6 · November 2002

I gave a $20K offer on a '99 Expo. sight unseen, not a smart move on my part. I went out to view the vehicle, and it had numerous problems. The dealer's photos on the Internet completely fooled me.

isellhondas · November 2002

Zues, I'm glad I wasn't the only one that caught that.

To me, making an "offer" is like a handshake. If I say I'll buy your car, house, or whatever if you take my offer, I mean it!

Correct me if I'm wrong, 98jetta, but didn't you make an offer? Didn't they accept your offer? And then, didn't you back out of your commitment only to go shopping for a better deal?

I only bring this up because of your comment regarding the honesty of those in our business.

Honesty go's both ways.

isellhondas · November 2002

Slipped in ahead of mine. Yes, making an offer based on a picture was not a smart move.

When cars are priced below the prevailing market value there is usually a reason.

98jettavr6 · November 2002

my refusal to buy an obviously flawed vehicle was dishonest, but not by my moral compass. My mistake was making an offer sight unseen. The dealership was about 40 miles from my home, so I wanted to at least have an idea of the actual price they were willing to sell the vehicle, as opposed to the listed price.

The moral of the incident for me: if it seems too good to be true, it usually is, especially with a 4,000+ pound SUV.

isellhondas · November 2002

Not dishonest. I didn't understand the circumstances. I figured you did this face to face in the dealership.

I just didn't appreciate the jab.

If that's the kind of car you really have to have, your timing is excellent right now.

These are VERY soft in the marketplace.

Good Luck!

zueslewis · November 2002

just to freak out the guys who like statistics (I hate them, personally).

There are 100,000 car salesmen in the nation, 10% (generous) are unscrupulous, showing 10,000 bad guys.

There are 200 million car buyers in the nation, 75% of which will not be honest during a transaction - I know - I'd lied when I told the salesman "I'll be back" - that's 150 million consumers who are dishonest, most of which think car salesmen are liars. Just food for thought.

rerenov8r · November 2002

I hardly consider "I'll be back" to be a 'transaction'.

Does that 'cost' the salesperson anything?

It's not like you blew off an APPOINTMENT you made with 'em...

It's not like they are gonna sit there at their desks waving off other customers WAITING for you...

Compare to the scams/lies one hears about dealers/salespeople bringing folks back into "change the details" of deal after everything has been signed--

Who is lying to whom???

alfox · November 2002

"The trick is finding an honest car salesman - an oxymoronic phrase if there ever was one."

You are in the peresence of several here, as strange as that may seem to you. After some years here I have learned that there are many, and that the ethical shenanigans are well distributed on both sides of the desk. You are lucky that there are some knowledgeable, honest and helpful sales people here (I am not one, BTW) - not all, but some. I suggest you don't indulge in broadcast insults until you sort them out a bit.

98jettavr6 · November 2002

I agree with you. I shouldn't have generalized by making such a sweeping statement. Still, this is a typical Internet BB, you shouldn't tell yourself otherwise.

alfox · November 2002

maybe, yes. At least it's not the free-for-all you see elsewhere.

:-)

98jettavr6 · November 2002

I've witnessed MUCH worse on the Internet, but the medium is what it is, whether it be this BB or another. That siad, I've gotten a wealth of information from edmunds.com & its BBs.

golic · November 2002

I've got to tell you, I bought a 01' Olds aurora when 9/11 hit last year and just bought on '03 Ody. I usually shop via internet so I don't have to drive around dealer-dealer.

The Old was at a olds/cadillac/hummer dealer and the salesman was a complete professional. Straight forward, I asked for best price and he gave it to me and not one part of deal did I feel like I was getting screwed.

The professionals are out there and they do make a buying a pleasure, I don't know if I will ever own a caddi next, but if I do I will seek him out. I also have referred some of my clients to him.

On the Ody, dealt with a green pea who tried very hard and was honest....I don't know how he will end up but the point I want to make is the week I was going to get my car from him two other dealers called and had a better price by $500. but I felt since guy was honest and fair with me, the "handshake deal" should be honored.

If you are lucky to live in an area where you can shop around there are good salespeople out there. Just like anything else, do you homework and you will find them.

zueslewis · November 2002

there ARE quite a few present and former (like me) car biz guys here who freely give their time and effort to talk with consumers. Many consumers have gotten advice here that the salesman they're working with, or will be working with, would never give them.

Be easy on the bashing.

stevation · November 2002

There isn't enough civility left in this world, and I appreciate folks like the level-headed ones in this forum who answer questions respectfully and help tone down the folks who get carried away. Behind these computer screens, it's just too easy sometimes to spout off things that you'd never say to someone's face.

I just bought a new Nissan, and I was happy with the salesman. I thought he, the sales manager, and the finance manager were professional, straightforward, and courteous. Of course, if I didn't treat them with respect, they might not have been so easy to work with.

Steve

prodigalsun · November 2002

Went to a mazda dealer, and had the salesman try and tell me that the sucker sticker covered doc fees and dealer prep. $1,995 worth of dealer prep...Hmmm...I asked him if they replaced the seat stitching with gold thread during the prep process.

zueslewis · November 2002

is complete malarky. Every manufacturer pays the dealer, through a warranty labor operation, to do a Pre-Delivery Inspection (PDI), which includes removing the plastic from the inside and outside, attaching the antenna, etc.

"Dealer Prep" charges are used by dealers without enough guts to ask for "Adjusted Market Value".

frankie7 · November 2002

purchasing a new 2003 Toyota Camry XLE 4 cyl. Automatic in northern NJ. From numerous posts on Edmunds, dealer invoice appears to be anywhere between $18,875 to $20,150. So that I may make an intelligent acceptable offer to a dealer, can
anyone tell me what dealer invoice is. MANY THANKS.

98jettavr6 · November 2002

In my last post, I typed that I have received a wealth of information from this board. Did you even read what I typed?

alinda · November 2002

and still you slam us. if you've learned much, why not thank, take in stride, and not make potshots?

zueslewis · November 2002

Yes, I read your post, and yes I read after that where you stated you shouldn't have generalized. I was in the car business for 9 years, now I'm using that experience to help prosecute dealer fraud cases and help consumers with lemon law eligible vehicles.

I take offense when I'm included in a group you consider, basically, scum of the Earth.

brekke · November 2002

Could an internet salesperson give me an idea of what his/her typical day is like? I would so appreciate it. Please email me if it's not too much trouble.

Thank you.

mackabee · November 2002

I could give you an idea, although I also work the floor and my previous customers. Leads come in asking for price quotes on a vehicle. Most of the time you still have to educate a customer on trim levels and options. I maintain our website also and put some specials on there. If you are planning on doing the net sales at your dealership be careful to log every prospect you get or you'll be skated left and right by the other sales people when these customers come in. You have to ensure and drill it into their heads to have them ask for you.
: )
\ Mackabee

stevation · November 2002

My dealer's finance guy called up and said he needs to rewrite our contract, because it was written on a GMAC contract form when it should have been a Nissan contract (they sell GM and Nissan). Question -- should I be worried that he's going to try to change the deal or play some financial trick on me? We had gotten Nissan's 2.9% financing for 5 years, so it's very important that the terms of the original loan are honored. I'm pretty savvy on financing and stuff, so I don't think he could catch me off guard, but is this some kind of trick that finance people sometimes play? Should I be worried? This makes me wonder if my earlier post about it being a good experience was a mistake.

Steve

landru2 · November 2002

Don't let paranoia get the better of you. Mistakes can happen.

In reading your post, I wondered to myself, "How could the finance guy mistakenly use a GM contract to sell Nissan financing?"

However, upon further reading it became apparent that someone "pretty savvy on financing and stuff" apparently missed this when signing the contact too (I'm assuming it says GMAC somewhere on the contract).

alinda · November 2002

I'd reccomend waiting until you got there to see what's going on. Check the numbers, resign if they are correct, and if something has changed on their end, make them explain why. I've had to call customers back in for incorrect VINs on the contracts, incomplete information from the customer, and a few other reasons. I don't want to make myself and the store sound inept or anything -- I've got plenty of customers calling me back wanting to know where the parking break is, or how to use Onstar. We all have our dumb moments. People do the paperwork, people make mistakes. Ya know? Everything should be fine.

cherokeelmt · November 2002

At our place our F&I guy writes up credit app's for custmoers all day long without them even knowing. Somestimes, to get aproved he needs to go to 4 or 5 different banks. All with different app's. Do you want to fill out all those App's? To get Nissan's special financing you have to go through Nissan and he is just correcting the mistake and filling out a Nissan contract for you. Our guy would not even tell you thet!

zueslewis · November 2002

I've run into this many times when, by the chart I was given from a lender, a person qualified and I contracted them. I find out the next day it won't work with "Bank A", but will with "Bank B" - "B" won't accept "A"'s contract, so we have to re-sign.

Bear in mind, many times when I've head to recontract, it's because I was lied to by the consumer about time of the job, time at residence, etc, at that made them disqualify at "Bank A".

This looks like they just used the wrong contract form - should be no big deal - just check all the numbers. If the selling price, trade, rate and term are the same, thus making the payment the same, no worries.

golic · November 2002

So it aint so, what is this world coming too..

ohhh the agony....

stevation · November 2002

Yeah, Landru, I suppose it sounds dumb to say I am "savvy," but hey, I once had a home mortgage from GMAC, so I know they do a lot more than just finance GM vehicles. Although I saw GMAC on the contract, I just thought he had it right.

Thanks for the posts, everyone. I'm sure it is just a simple mistake, but I wanted to hear from your experience to reassure myself. I don't think it has anything to do with the info on my app -- it just looks like the wrong form was used. He did have some problems with his printer that night and had to reprint it -- he must have pulled the wrong form when he did that.

Thanks again,
Steve

rdbm3 · November 2002

Car manufacturers undoubtedly compile ratings of the quality of their dealer's service departments relative to others in the same region. Can a consumer get access to this information? If so, where?

zueslewis · November 2002

gets a monthly status from the manufacturer - he/she is either proud of it or not - I would just ask the service manager. Each service advisor is also graded on CSI ratings - I knew my CSI status all the time - just ask them.

CarMan@Edmunds · November 2002

The problem with asking a particular dealership about their CSI scores is that they may not be completely truthful with you. Think about it, if I was the manager of a service department that did not have the best rating and a consumer asked me what my rating was, I definitely would tell them that it was outstanding. Nobody wants to admit to a potential customer that their past customer satisfaction has been less than stellar. One way to find out what service departments in your area is like is to ask friends and co-workers what they think of the places that they have used for service. This is a great way to get an honest assessment of different departments. You may also want to ask around here in the Town Hall to see if other community members have had good or bad experiences with the service departments of dealerships in your area. Try looking in the corresponding Message Board for the vehicle that you are interested in and the Maintenance and Repair Message Board. So for instance, if you are interested in purchasing or have recently purchased a new Honda Accord, stop by the Accord discussions over on the Sedans Message Board and see if there is anyone in your area there who would be willing to share their opinions on the local service department or departments with you.

Car_man

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