Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

im_brentwood · February 2003

I wish that Oceanside thing happened

BTW, New Lexus point going into O-Town.. might be worth calling on.

bolivar · February 2003

Why are any maintenance receipts from a previous owner thrown out of used cars?

mackabee · February 2003

Why do you always leave us hanging? You did that to us when we were kids too! I hate you dad!
; (
Mackabee Jr.

abtseller · February 2003

the maintenance receipts usually have personal information on them such as names, phone numbers, credit card numbers, etc, that would be inappropriate to leave in a used car.

Ed

isellhondas · February 2003

A lot of people who trade in cars will take great pains to make sure there is nothing left in the trade in that has their name on it.

They simply don't want people snooping through their receipts. they don't want a prospective buyer calling and bugging them.

We are lucky to get owner's manuals sometimes.

audia8q · February 2003

My big requirement is the water...I need to be on the coast.....

Mazda is adding a new point in the very wealthy area of southern CT....They are looking for a couple young owners like us....mmmmmmmm

masspector · February 2003

what abtseller and isellhondas said is exactly true. I know from real world experience. In my younger naive days I traded in a car with about 85,000 miles on it. I had all of the maintnanence receipts to show I had taken care of the car. About 6 months later I get a call from this guy. He had bought the car somewhere, not sure if my dealer or another one. He was complaining about the brakes and wanted to know what I was going to do about it. I hung up and thankfully he never called again.

rroyce10 · February 2003

..... Now you know what a dealer goes through .l.o.l. --

Hey Terry, I have had this vehicle for only 6 months and I have only driven 15,000 miles and the guy at Smidas said I needed brakes, what are you gonna do about it ..?

Terry :-))

mrsp · February 2003

Question for anyone....I ran across something called a CSI score that a dealer is suppose to provide to a consumer if they request it. Its suppose to tell you if the dealer is reputable or not is what I am understanding. Is there a number scale? And what does this score actually tell you? Please let me know. Thanks!

mellis · February 2003

In how many different threads did you post this same question? Six?

rubicon52 · February 2003

I have a question similar to Bolivar's. When I've shopped for a used car I've asked for maintenance records and was usually told the car came from an auction and there weren't any. I've also seen advice from those in the car business on these forums that if you're buying a high end European car you need to see evidence that the maintenance was done. Therefore, I would think that maintenance records could be very helpful in selling a car. If so, why don't more used cars have them?

rroyce10 · February 2003

..... The biggest reason that they don't leave them in, is because they have the previous folks, name, address, phone #, business # and even cell #'s off a service sheets ..

        Folks don't like getting calls about their vehicles at the soccer games, dinner or at work .. and the funny part is, the callers want All the info about the previous deal or better yet, a "knock knock" at 8:30PM when someone might be sitting in their shorts or playing with their kids .. it really PO's folks .. that's why God made Tele-Zappers.

       Years ago when I got in the business .. we had a guy going through all the vehicles and getting info and just randomly calling people to see what they got for their trades, until a customer came in and blew his stack, that was the end of a customer that bought 7 vehicles in 5 years from us .. now, if someone asks, we get permission from the customer first, and 8 out of 10 just Don't like to get bothered .. that's why they traded it .. they didn't have the time and their privacy is very important.

         Terry ;-)

rubicon52 · February 2003

Thanks. What you said sounds plausible. OK, if you can't get maintenance records (usually) on a used car, how do you know it's been maintained? Let's say I'm looking at a used 3-year old car and the oil was never changed by the previous owner. After the car was bought by the dealer, the dealer changes the oil before putting it on his used lot. I look at the dipstick and the oil looks fresh. Without pulling a valve cover I don't know how I could tell if the previous owner ever changed the oil. The engine may still run fine, but because of not changing the oil, there is an abnormal amount of internal wear that could cause me problems after I buy it. Is there any way to avoid this pitfall?

bretfraz · February 2003

If a full service history is important to you, buy the car from a private party who is more than happy to show you how well he maintained his car.

The last time I sold a car privately I gave the buyer a huge stack of receipts and a service manual. But I did remove critical paperwork that had credit card receipts attached to them. But I've never given paperwork on a vehicle I've traded.

dtwleungnyc · February 2003

Depending on makes, you can go to the service department of a dealership and "pull" the service record of a car, if you have the VIN#. I believe you can do this with Lexus, MB, BMW and high end cars in general. Not too sure about your run of the mill Chevy, Toyota, Honda, etc, though.

bretfraz · February 2003

It only works if owners had their car serviced at a franchised dealer. The mfr needs to have a national service database set up for this.

akangl · February 2003

Whenever I've traded a used car I always make sure that the service records go with it. I don't mind being bothered and let the dealer know they are free to call me if they have a buyer that wants info.

The last car I traded was my 01 Jetta, I wrote a little note in the owner's manual stating that it was a great car. My name and phone number were written in the owner's manual along with a list of everything that had been done. I saw the car a few months later still on the lot and the only thing the dealer had removed was the window sticker that was in the owner's manual. Never got a call from anyone on that car.

Guess its different here in Alaska because usually the receipts (minus any credit card numbers) are left in the car. I've only personally called one previous owner and they were happy to talk about the Jeep they used to own.

rroyce10 · February 2003

..... Dtwleungnyc is pretty much on this one .. you can get the Vin# and go to a Chevy or a VW service dept and pull records .. but, I do have to admit, when I'm out of town .. I go to Tire Kingdom for the tires, service and the oil changes - I bad. (Nat acct)

Akangl is one of the "2 of the 10" that would respond, but would probably also ask you in for dinner, meet the kids/hubby and let you ride her horses .l.o.l.

Terry :-)

rubicon52 · February 2003

Sounds like the best way to buy a used car is from a private party - get a service history AND save money.

I guess service histories are not a big deal with many used car buyers. Once, I sold a very worn 8-year old Chevy. This was a $1000 car that I guess you would call a beater. I would think that when buying a beater, mechanical condition would be paramount. But, I used to get calls from people who would not ask about the mechanical condition at all. They wanted to know the color, what condition the interior was in, etc. Never understood it. Also traded in a Honda Accord once and the dealer made me an offer without driving the vehicle. He did check to see if everything worked (radio, air conditioning).

sonjaab · February 2003

My GM plow trucks every 3 winters before warranty
expires! I tell the dealer straight up have the
person call me about the truck if they wish !
If they do i recommend they purchase a extended
warranty from selling GM dealer ! Since I NEVER
(knock on wood) have had any issues with the trucks i traded I have no fear telling the potential buyer its history !
Buyer happy, Me happy, Dealer happy selling warranty and making more $$$$$$$

zueslewis · February 2003

and I'm sure Terry and Bill can add more than I can:

Visual inspection - how does the trunk look? Are the water drains and seals nasty? What about the engine compartment? Tons of crud and spilled oil? Carpeting have permanent stains?

I've found that people who don't do mechanical maintenance on their vehicles also don't keep them very clean, except the drive-through carwash concept.

Check the oil - is there any baked on gunk on the distick? Same for the transmission fluid. How clean in the brake fluid compared to the age of the car? What about the power steering fluid? Is is black?

While this isn't 100%, I find that most people that maintain their vehicles keep receipts, even if the smush them into the glovebox. If yo ask for receipts and get none, what does that tell you? You don't have to be obsessive/compulsive just to keep a folder with car records.

sergeym · February 2003

I own 2 cars 2002 BMW 540 and 1993 Camry XLE V6. The Camry still runs well and I use it for grocery shopping and to keep miles low on BMW. I did not plan on replacing Camry but today I 've got a very tempting e-mail from a dealer where I usually take it for service. Here is what they saying:
<Because of the recent Blizzard of 2003, XYZ Toyota has to move 100 more Camrys by the End of the Month!
Your price for this vehicle can go as low as $1000 Under Dealer Invoice. That's over $6500 of savings from the Sticker Price on high end models!!!
We also have the choice of special lease rates to qualified buyers.

You MUST bring a copy of this e-mail and contact ABC PERSON to avail of this special promotion. I REPEAT, do not contact a salesperson! Only ABC PERSON is the assigned Internet Manager who can assist you in the most hassle-free way possible to get you the most phenomenal deal on these vehicles>
So, I priced 5-speed XLE V6 with options I might be interested in (Navi, side air-bags, heated seats and preferred accessories) and got $30,500 MSRP. The invoice for this car is $27,363. And here is the problem. If you take $6,500 off of MSRP you get $24,000 and this price is too attractive to pass by. But if you subtract $1,000 from published invoice you get much higher number which is $26,363. Are they talking about some other invoice (dealer cost)? Or they just playing games with me? Should I just offer them $24K and ask them to confirm the price in writing? Or just treat it as another screamer ad and ignore it?

zueslewis · February 2003

There will be several disclaimers and qualifiers at the bottom of that ad or bill of sale - they may get $6,500 off of a loaded up ride that MSRPs at $35K - only one in stock and it's already sold to a nice old lady.....

Ask them for a firm price quote, but if you're considering trading, you'll not be happy with the offer on your trade, more than likely.

akangl · February 2003

Hey....you picking on me?? I'm a very honest person, heck, when I traded off my 96 Windstall I expected a phone call. Know what I would have said?? "Run like the wind the other way, its a lemon!!!" That darn van went through 3 transmissions in 2 months, a front end, abs system, and I can't remember what else, needless to say I got to drive it a whole 3 weeks out of the 12 weeks I owned it. Of course I didn't tell the Nissan dealer that as I traded it on a brand new Altima. They hung onto that van for over a year, don't know where it went after that.

rroyce10 · February 2003

.. Hey....you picking on me??

No, that was a compliment .. you do have compliments in Alaska don't you .?

Terry :-))

mackabee · February 2003

First, It will be like pulling teeth from a Bengal tiger as a V6 Camry XLE with nav is impossible to find right now. Second, $1000.00 under invoice is probably on cars in stock only. $6500.00 off MSRP will only work on a Landcruiser if it's $1000.00 below invoice. I would read the e-mail again. Good luck!
: )
Mackabee
p.s. also $6500.00 off MSRP on a Camry is probably off their addendum sticker.

zueslewis · February 2003

the $3,000 "regional market value adjustment" in the ad.

sergeym · February 2003

There is not much to read or re-read in that e-mail. I copy-pasted almost the entire e-mail. Just replaced dealership and sales-person's names. BTW I do not really need Navi. I just tried to get an idea about what top of the line Camry may cost. I rather take base V6 SE but I was tempted by those $6,500. I will probably ask for their best price for base V6 SE. BTW is $1000 below invoice doable on 5-speed auto? I also do not plan on trading my Camry in. From what I learned on these boards it is better to sell such a car privately. With 130K miles the car is in a pretty good shape and I probably can get $2.5-3K for it.

akangl · February 2003

Um, yeah, thanks for the compliment. I think I was having a brain freeze, it was chilly here this morning.

Hubby actually tried to leave me the truck today, he wanted to take the Escort.....go figure. I had to pry my Escort out of his hands since I needed it.

lilac0422 · February 2003

I am out looking to buy a new car right now. I would like to know what extra charges on a sticker that should raise a red flag to me. What kind of extras besides destination should I be expected to pay for, if any? I think I have a good price negotiated already for 200 over invoice but when I do the final paperwork, I want to make sure that they don't try to slip extras on me because they think I am an uneducated woman. Thanks for the help.

zueslewis · February 2003

from the factory, window sticker (Munroney sticker), it's not a charge from the manufacturer.

Many dealers are doing the "Additional Dealer Market Adjustment" (or several other acronyms), but that doesn't mean you can't buy a car there. At the Mom and Pop store in Lander, Wyoming, where I started in the car business, we had a $995 ADM - we only used it when someone's trade was worth $10 and we could show over allowance without inflating all the numbers to radically.

"Dealer prep" is a bogus charge since the dealer is paid, through a warranty labor operation" to do a pre-delivery inspection on the vehicle, remove all the plastic, screw on the antenna, put on the wheelcovers, etc.

Treat it like any other place - figure out what you want to pay, decide on a model, color and options and go make an offer - don't play games, your time is worth more than that, and so is the salesman's.

CarMan@Edmunds · February 2003

Hi lilac0422. I often advise consumers who are in the market for a new vehicle to look at the big picture and get an out-the-door price quote for the model that they are interested in. By out-the-door, I mean the total amount of money that you are going to have to spend to drive off in the car or truck that you want. By getting this sort of price quote, one can cut through all of the little fees that many dealers try to tack onto deals to cloud the picture. It doesn't matter what fees they add to your deal of you concentrate on the total amount of money that the vehicle that you are interested in will cost you. Once you have an out-the-door price quote from the dealer that you are working with, you can comparison shop it with a few other dealers in your area to make sure that you have been given a good price.

Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards

caligirl2 · February 2003

Would it be possible to trade in my used truck that I bought in September for something else? I'm not sure how I would go about that. The truck is fine, has under 20,000 miles on it. I just need something smaller and that gets better gas mileage, and lower insurance. Would I have to take it back to the dealer ship I got it from, or could I take it anywhere? If anyone could help me with that, I would appreciate it. Thanks

bigorange30 · February 2003

the depreciation? That is taken as soon as you title it. Your truck it like any other in the used market right now. Why would it matter what dealer you took it too? Some have told me that you should expect a 50% loss due to depreciation on it on the trade-in.

You can always trade it in though. Do you think someone is make you keep it?

zueslewis · February 2003

go over to "Real World Trade-in Values" and post all the descriptive info on your GMC - Terry, Bill or I can put a number on it.

rivertown · February 2003

caligirl2 - Sure you can trade trucks, especially if you're buying and not leasing, and with any dealer you can strike a workable deal with. The problem BO is getting at is that you may owe a good bit more on your truck than what you can get a dealer to allow for it as a trade-in. If you paid too much for it or if it has lost value through depreciation (just being 5-6 months older), then you'll probably owe more than the dealer will appraise it for trade-in. That's called being 'upside down' or having 'negative equity'. Cute terms, huh?

What to do? If you decide to trade, you may have to come up with a BIG downpayment. Or, the dealer may help you to 'roll over' your 'negative equity' into the loan on the new truck. This makes for a complicated deal, though; and you have to have your wits about you or you can end up in a worse spot than you are already in.

My bet is that you'll do best by keeping your truck. It's gonna take some sharp dealing and very good luck to improve your mileage and insurance situations enough by trading to make for a better overall financial situation transportation-wize.

rerenov8r · February 2003

If by "trade-in" you are really hoping that they will give you some UNREALISTIC ALLY HIGH VALUE -- DREAM ON!

Do not get "hung-up" on a "trade-in" being something magical. It is simply a part of a using the value of one vehicle to reduce the out-of-pocket cash of another.

There are other ways to achieve the same thing, like selling the truck out right.

Unfortunately, since the truck was bought last September and you've had it for only about 6 months odds are you don't have any equity -- the car dealers' term for this is you are "upside down" -- owing more than the truck is worth.

A dealer would be ONLY TOO HAPPY to get you financing that covered your "negative equity" in order to pay off the truck you would be trading in & the smaller car you really want. Only problem is now you have dug yourself a DEEPER HOLE. You might end up with lower fuel costs & smaller insurance cost BUT you'd be paying MORE for the car & the amount you owed on the truck...

Is is there a way out of this predicament? Not really. Unless you mad a substantial down payment when you bought the truck (so that you owe LESS than it is worth) you probably have NEGATIVE EQUITY. Depending on how a big a gap there is between what you owe on the truck & how mush it is really worth you could be looking at a very unattractive financial situation...

You need a plan. First, look at your truck payments. If you can find a bank (or credit union) with a better INTEREST RATE than you got when you bought the truck this may be one way to reduce you total costs. You want/need a low rate. If you already 0% when you bought the truck, this is NOT an area for further consideration. OTOH if you are paying 5% or more you MIGHT be able to get a better deal.

Second, figure out how much the truck would LIKELY sell for right now, in its present condition. Check the "Real World Car Value" thread here for the BEST Info!

Third determine how much you owe on the vehicle. You should get a amortization schedule with your loan documents. It details how much you still owe.

Next, figure out the GAP between what the truck is worth (from step 2) and how much you owe (from step 3). If, in fact you owe more than its worth you can consider the GAP as a big, fat, ugly WART that sits on top of the cost of any car you'd consider buying. To make it easy suppose your gap is $8,000.Suppose you were thinking, "Gee, what I really need is nice fuel sipping Corolla. I could get nice LE with decent equipment for $16,000" Now go ahead and ADD-ON the $8K gap and what you really are doing is looking to FINANCE $24,000. So instead of getting a five year loan for $16K at 5% you will need a $24K loan at 7% (Oh yeah, those "negative equity" loans NEVER come at the 'best rate'...) Bottom Line -- you would have to pay $475 a month instead of $300. OUCH!!

Is this less than you are paying for the truck now? If yes, then I guess it makes sense. If no, you have to bite the bullet and really figure out your total fuel costs & insurance too. Unless you drive an awful lot & have some fancy hard to insure truck I am going to guess that this is NOT going to make sense...

If you know the numbers for your loan, the insurance & the miles you drive, we can help you figure out ANY situation!

Good Luck!

stillbrooke · February 2003

My needs/wants:

I am TIRED of BAD mileage. And I drive A LOT! Coming up to just about a year of ownership with my Mercury Villager Estate...at 15.3 average mpg ....and I am nearing 30,000. Gasoline fill-ups are KILLING me!!!...because of this have thought about Honda Civic hybrid (don't like the looks of the Toyota Prius), or one of the Volkswagon Diesel varities.

I LIKE sitting high above the traffic (This may be an idea that will have to be given up...up on the list of WANTS...not as high on the list of NEEDS)...and because of this have thought about a Saturn Vue (buy American, ya know..a pattern that may only be broken this year), the Mazda CRV.

I have become accustomed to the idea of being able to carry a LOT. My kids will be going to college in the next few years...and if I keep this new car that long...I can see schlepping stuff back and forth to campus. Because of this I am thinking, yes an SUV, but also *cringes as I say this* a stationwagon, or a sedan with a LARGE trunk and fold down seats (if needed).

Ok...NOW...

WHAT?

SURE mileage is important...but so is safety... and I don't want it in the repair shop often.

Money:

Tax advantage on a hybrid (is there one on the diesel)?

Insurance advantage on a Saturn (and the like)?

Does Diesel gas USUALLY cost as much as premium gas? I noticed that at a gas station today.

Maintainence:

Are hybrids TOO new? Are they reliable? Can they TAKE all the driving I do? And, btw...I'm in Chicago...what about the cold winters? Can the electric motor work in the cold? Hate the thought of being stranded.

Diesel...I hear that they require less maintainence..true? But also...what is this I hear about carbon building up-and the costly care of THAT issue?

Ummm...think that's it for now. A lot to chew on. Can you help inform me about these things and minimize my choices?

Thanks
Brooke

bigorange30 · February 2003

You are in about the same situation as caligirl. Unless you have $10K you can just sacrifice on your trade-in you better just keep it at least another 2-3 years. An alternative would be to sell it out right to an interested buyer instead of going through the dealer. In this case, you will still throw about $5K to the wind due to depreciation.

tboner · February 2003

It might be cheaper to buy an inexpensive used smaller car to cut fuel costs and insurance since you can reduce the yearly mileage on the fully covered vehicle and put all of your miles and most of your gas money in the more fuel efficient ride. Not to mention you won't burn up all the value of the newer, more expensive vehicle. You have to compare the cost of this car to what you will "lose" in depreciation if you sell today. Of course what you own still depreciates, even if you keep it, but if you sell early, you pay a disproportinate amount of this relative to the number of miles you've driven.

However, it is hard to save money on fuel economy alone.

In my case, my 87 LeSabre costs me $0.18/mile for all operating costs such as fuel, maint/repair, tags and insurance. However, fuel is only about $0.06/mile of this cost. I average 23.1 MPG on about two years worth of data. However, if I were to get something that got 46 MPG, my fuel costs only drops about $0.03/mile, or about 16% of my total cost.

However, there aren't many rides that do that kind of mileage.

The other thing to consider is that fuel, even at our higher fuel prices, is fuel is still probably the cheapest thing you buy for your car. Most cars are probably $0.35++++ / mile to operate, so cutting fuel costs may not help much.

Now buying a late 80's sedan....

TB
Has a deductible beater

xccoachlou · February 2003

Brooke,

Have you thought about the Subaru Outback? It gets 22/28 and has a 16.9 gallon tank. It's also done very well in reliability and safety.

Besides it looks way cooler than a wagon.

bobst · February 2003

You know, sometimes these discussion groups get kind of silly, but the last few posts have contained some very, very good advice. I hope Caligirl and Brooke appreciate it.

It sounds like they are both somewhat 'in a hole', and I have heard that the best advice to someone in a hole is to stop digging.

zueslewis · February 2003

You're all assuming they put no money down and paid MSRP - why?

bigorange30 · February 2003

necessarily. I am just saying they will lose big on depreciation even if they paid cash and paid invoice price. If they paid cash, they lost it then, if they financed it, they will lose in when they trade in.

stickguy · February 2003

Because most people don't put much down?

zueslewis · February 2003

but some people pay cash - these guys are running amok, freaking the two ladies out and they don't even know the facts.

isellhondas · February 2003

Don't worry about breaking a "pattern". Your Villager is really a Nissan Quest with different name badges!

bigorange30 · February 2003

Are you saying that they will not take a big depreciation hit if they go to trade their 1 year old cars in? What difference does it make if they paid cash or financed it, the money is still down the toilet if they trade it back in this early.

That's not what you said about a wrecked volvo a lady wanted to get rid of at the dealer just a month ago.

stickguy · February 2003

they will for sure take a depreciation whack, but don't have to be upside down after it was the point IIRC.

That's also my HO.

tboner · February 2003

I didn't say a thing about being upside down. I did mention depreciation, which almost everybody suffers unless you bought a new T-Bird, Odyssey or a few other rides.

TB
Not freaking out

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