A third-party source lists invoice info, say a website.
So customer looks up invoice info, offers, say, $500 over that. But the actual invoice is different! Say that dealer is hit with $275 in regional advertising asessments.. ahh.. But kbb.com says the invoice is $17,856.50 and the dealer says $275 over that...
From your handle I'm assuming you're a dealer or salesman. From the goofy arguments I'm getting I assume most others here are as well.
Look, I don't give a rat's patoot that you have to pay an ad fee to somebody in Sweden. That's your problem. That's a cost of doing business - to YOU. You build that cost into whatever final price you choose to sell me the car. Are you next going to itemize out some fee for the insurance that you have to pay so I can test drive a car? Are you going to tack on an extra $5 to pay for the courtesy coffee I get while waiting on you to go "talk to the sales manager"? Where does this end?
Can any of you show me one other industry in this country that makes its retail customers go through this nonsense?
My only point is this - I should not have to care what your invoice is. That's not something I should even have to consider on my end of this transaction. In fact, it's really none of my damned business. But you people - dealers, if that's who I'm talking to - came up with this stuff. YOU are the ones who have forced me to make it my business, because of the marketing practices that YOU have chosen to utilize.
I don't care if the grocery store paid $1 for a bag of potatoes that they are trying to sell to me for $2. I don't have to sit down and ask to see the grocery store's invoice and figure out how they got to $2 and wonder if I'm getting ripped off. I don't care if $1.00 a bag is a fair profit for potatoes. The market figures that out for me, because I can easily see if the store down the street sells potatoes for $2.50 or $1.75. I can't do that for cars, because I have to invest untold hours researching your so-called "invoice" and wading through "ad fees" and nebulous other "fees" and "charges" and "options" just to get to the point where I can realistically haggle over a price that's a moving target to begin with. Furthermore, I know that that grocery store is going to charge the next guy $2 and the next and the next. They won't charge somebody $1.50 for that same bag of potatoes just because he squawks loud. So yeah, in some respect I guess it IS about not paying more than my neighbor, and about him not paying more than me.
People, this is the way YOUR INDUSTRY chooses to do business. Don't get snippy with us consumers just because we're trying to figure out the game.
you're the one getting snippy! The car salesmen who come here are up front in explaining the business and offering useful advice to consumers...you could learn a bit listening to what they have to say. Btw, they did not come up with the "system" you decry - they just have to work with it, just like you and I. Oh, I am not a salesmen, but an interested consumer who values the input these folks provide - came in rather handy when I bought my last car.
You are obviously new to the site....so sit back and listen to the "other side" ...you might learn a bit....esp from guys like Bill, landru, Terry, etc
This may well be a waste of time here.. But I'll try and explain this, as I apparently was not clear enough.
1) You assume that dealers are responsible for the invoice info being public. Neither us nor the manufacturers are. In fact, the manufacturers could care less if what is posted by third parties is accurate or not. To quote an old Ford rep "Its not our responsibility to determine whether or not internal corporate cost information posted by a third party is accurate or not".
However, things are what they are. What I was trying to explain above is that there are charges on invoices that are indeed legitimate and indeed part of the invoice that are not always shown online. However, you can believe what you want, reality notwithstanding.
If it were up to me, they might as well be accurate. Example. EVERY SINGLE Volkswagen sold inthe US has an item on the invoice for port prep (There are other charges as well that are nationwide). Edmunds.com does not list this item.
Yes, they are costs of doing business. The cost of the car. Sort of like the costs of options, destination charges, base invoice costs of cars, etc.
If a dealer charges a separate advertising fee after the deal is done, it is quite likely to be bogus. (Such as a preprinted charge on a buyer's order).
As far as "wasting untold hours" That is also your decision. I am a partner in a large real estate company inthe NY City area. We have a large fleet of company vehicles. Largely for my own amusement, I am in charge of buying them.
I recently had to buy a couple of Pickup trucks. I scanned the boards here, realized that $500 or so over invoice was quite doable, made a phone call, secured a price for 2 equipped the way that I needed them, and made the deal. It usually takes me no more than 48 hours after hearing "Bill, we need to buy/lease an X" to signing the papers and bringing a check.
Do I care what the invoice is? Not really. IMO, what does it really matter? What matters is what I pay for the vehicle. I do look up the invoice on edmunds, but I also consider the info much like any other Third Party information. I try to be objective, much as any intelligent person ought to be.
That being said, this is not how my industry chooses to do business. But things are what they are. I'm fine with that. However, if the 3rd party information was a bit more accurate, it would be a lot easier for all involved. Technically, when it comes right down to it, I have yet to see a logical argument that a customer should have this information, or that the profit margin inthe sale of a car really matters. Logically, I dont see how it could matter. A customer should concentrate onbuying what they want for the best price they can obtain.
As far as myself, I do not work for a Volvo dealership any longer, and I do not own one. I do, however, owna dealership.
I can save $.25 on a loaf of bread at Safeway if I give them a bunch of personal information and get a "club card." Why should I have to pay more because I don't want to tell Safeway my life story?
I can't buy consumer electronics without a usually obnoxious pitch for some kind of "service plan." Pay $40 to warranty a $99 VCR, ya right.
The local waterbed shop says I'll save thousands if I buy this weekend only. Funny, they told me that last weekend.
A local parts shop advertises remote starters for $49. Great... oh, that's plus installation ($299).
Welcome to retailing in a free market. It's a total cop-out to say that any industry chooses how it does business. A market is made up of buyers and sellers. Both have influence on how it operates. Believe me, if car dealers could impose their will on the buying public you wouldn't be paying close to invoice.
My argument is not that dealers are responsible for invoice info being public per se. My argument is that because of the sales practices of this industry over the years - specifically things such as those "$1 over invoice" sales, but more generally the whole concept of haggling over the MSRP - dealers have set the rules of the game such that it is in my best interest to try to get some idea of what his true invoice price is.
I realize full well that the invoice numbers I get on Edmunds and other sites is third party information. But as you so correctly put it, things are what they are, and that's the best I have to go on, and it's something, and for all intents and purposes it seems to be pretty darn accurate.
landru2, you're missing the boat entirely. You bring up some advertising gimmicks, not a single one of which says "Hey Mr. Consumer - I'm offering you bread/waterbeds/VCR's at $1 over my cost, and I'll show you my invoice to prove it to you, but if you go checking around to find out whether this invoice I show you is my true cost or not, then I'll have to tack on more fees so I can make a profit".
My point, and really my only point, is that THIS system, where we consumers are almost derelict in our duties if we don't thoroughly research the cost of this product to the seller, is the system the auto industry has chosen. Of course dealers would rather nobody pay close to invoice. You don't pay Sam Walton close to invoice, but Mr. Sam never tried to showed you his invoice to begin with. This system is YOUR fault, and you don't have a right to complain because now that the playing field has been leveled a bit you can only about squeeze out single digit profits.
First - Regional advertising fees seem to be a sore issue for you and you also say you use Edmunds (as well as others for your information). If so, then read Edmunds pricing page more thoroughly and you'll find that they specifically state that regional advertising is a legitimate part of invoice. If you research a point, read it all, not just the part that you like. Of course, if you're talking about some sort of "ad fee" tacked on after the fact at the end of the transaction, then as Bill said, this is probably bogus.
Second - If as you say, the playing field has been leveled a bit and that dealers can only squeeze out single digit profits, then you as a consumer are the one who benefits. So what's the problem, what's your beef? Seriously, what's your beef? Is it some fear that someone else somewhere bought the same car for $XXX less than you did? Or is it that you have to invest some time and work to get that very best deal?
Finally, You keep calling for someone to cite another industry where prices vary as much and people are as ignorant of the true price as the auto industry. Very well, do you ever fly lonesomeduv? On any given flight, how many different prices were paid by the hundred or so coach passengers all receiving the identical product and service. The same departure time, the same origin and destination, the same arrival time the same meals right down to the same bag of peanuts. And if you don't know what I'm talking about then obviously you haven't tried to price airline tickets.
why don't they just publish the regional ad fees and the fees charged by the regional manufacturer "middle men" (such as Southeast Toyota) and add them to their "dealer cost" calculator. Surely, if they're brilliant enough to know the invoice amount of side air bags on a Camry, they could figure out the rest of the fees. Is this rocket science? It would make the job of the sales folks here much easier. I'm thinking of writing out a script of why the online numbers are inaccurate and printing up copies to hand my customers if they come in with their "file" of research.
What really amazes me is that most of the complaints comes from people who don't own a business. They can't comprehend that a business actually has to make money so they can get paid. Lonesome, What you need to do is go out a purchase any type of business and then you may have a better grip on things.
Sorry I missed your boat but it's tough to hit a moving target. Your argument seems to have morphed from ad fees to $1 over invoice issues. Have you even dealt with any these things personally or are you just reciting from the car industry haters handbook?
What I'm still unclear about, after all these years, is where the web sites get this invoice price information (and CR for that matter). If it doesn't come from the manuf, then where? I can imagine some dealer somewhere slipping them out in a manila envelope for a little side 'consideration', but that would be difficult for every single make out there.
Nonetheless, I do agree with the poster who pointed out that Edmunds and the like really should just list the darned ad and port fees along with everything else. How many ugly negotiation sessions have taken place in the last several years because of this strange omission?
I'm not a car salesman but I play one on TV.... No, wait. I'm just an interested consumer and what has happened in this topic is at once fascinating and depressing.
Yeah, buying a car can be confusing but the more you define your issues the easier it gets. The fact that you can get invoice prices and an industry opinion on what charges are legit and what aren't are all well and good but these are not your issues.
Your issues are you want a car that satisfies your particular need. One of the best favors you can do yourself is to nail down just what car that may be - down to options and whatever else there might be there and then let the guys that sell compete with each other. After talking with a few dealers and keeping yourself (and them) on task you will figure out who is giving you the best deal. You may also find out that you are more comfortable with a dealer A who happens to charge $75 more than dealer B and decide that's the way to go.
Real life example - two years ago I bought a Honda Accord EX sedan. I went to carsdirect.com and priced it there. I checked a coupel of teh screamer guys to get a feel for their prices and I brought what I had to the dealer in town. He was straight as could be. Offered it for $100 more than the carsdirect.com price and very nicely said that was what he could do. If I wanted to buy through carsdirect or go grind with the screamer feel free but if I wanted to buy from him here was the exact number. I thanked him, slep on it and bought from him the next day - effortlessly and quickly.
Now I had issues and choices this whole time but not a one of them involved invoice, holdback, advertising fees (all of which were there to see). You're worrying about the wring issies - shop price and comfort.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I brought up ad fees and $1 over invoice sales to illustrate a point, namely that it is the dealers, not the consumers, who have created this bizarro world of car shopping where to do it right I have to do my best to find out what you paid for the product you're about to sell me. That shouldn't be any of my business. I do not want to have to care about that. YOU are the ones who force me to do so.
btw, I'm still waiting for somebody to show me another industry that operates like this.
The original point of this thread was that some dealer wanted a customer to pay for the holdback. Since we stupid non-dealership owners are told that the holdback is a sum paid by the manufacturer to the dealer, the customer was rightly confused as to why the dealer should be paid this amount twice.
Rather than a resounding "because he's a crooked S.O.B. and you should take your business elsewhere", the general response from most of the dealer types here was "don't sweat it - if you're willing to pay the price for the the car you want, why does it matter?", or the even more incredulous "looks like a good deal to me!", completely and most likely intentionally missing the point of the original question.
You guys seem confused as to why people haggle over $100. Well, why do YOU haggle over $100? That's a week's worth of groceries for some people. Maybe that's a kid's tuition payment, or a doctor's bill. To the dealer it's the electric bill or inventory tax. That's why it matters, that's why we haggle.
You scratch your head wondering why people balk at paying an ad fee, assuming that since you have to pay it, everybody should understand. But would you pay $1 just to walk through the door at the local mall, to pay for the mall owner's liability insurance should you trip over a sales display outside The Gap? It's the same concept, and it's just a stupid way to do business. Maybe you're forced into it by the manufacturer, but from my end, that's a "so what?". You want me to pay $400 so you can run commercials?? That doesn't seem to strike any of you as idiotic, yet you accuse ME of not knowing how to run a business.
The whole crux of this problem is the invoice. That's what this is all about. If you people hadn't interjected the almighty invoice into the process, albeit many moons ago, you wouldn't have to eke it out on single digit markups today. I wouldn't care if you get the holdback twice because I wouldn't, and shouldn't, know about it. This system - unique to the auto industry as far as I can tell - is your own damned fault. Why is that so hard for some of you to admit?
And you know, I haven't even brought up the issue of trade-ins. I'll save that for another day or thread, if I still care.
What propbably happened, and what I recall posting was simple.
This was probably a Toyota where the holdback is broken out on the invoice (Customer saw invoice and got confused).
I.E. Edmunds lists base Invoice of a Camry, at, say $18,655. Say there is $700 in Holdback. The actual Toyota Invoice from Toyota would probably show the car having an invoice cost of $17,955 plus $700 holdback equalling $18,655 (Or whatever it may be).
Maybe cut the vitriol and actually read the posts - carefully this time. The poster was not being charged twice for the holdback. They were just not aware of how to actually read a Toyota invoice. It's been explained in a few posts now. To consider a dealer a crook because a customer can't understand an internal business document seems a little unfair.
Since your enmity for the car business appears to be quite profound, might I suggest that you just avoid the auto industry altogether. After all, no new car could be worth the hell you make it out to be. Just stick with used cars from private parties. There's never any problems with those types of sales.
Thank you for sticking with me on this. I appreciate the patient and open attitude you have displayed here. Contrary to landru2's more typical car salesman's arrogance and sarcasm, I really am trying to understand where you guys are coming from.
Is your point that the Edmunds of the world don't always have the right invoice info, or at least that they don't always explain it clearly? If so, I not only accept that, I would expect it because this is third party information I get here. But in this specific example of the holdback, can you not see why it would make us go "ARRGGHHH!!!" to see holdback listed on an invoice, regardless of whether Edmunds had it right or not, since the deal in this case was "$400 over invoice"?
So once again, we are back to this notion that invoice is not really invoice. Invoice typically implies the amount the seller pays his source for the product. If that amount also includes an additional sum that the seller is going to receive from his source, and the price he wants me to pay is $400 above that, he's getting the holdback twice no matter how you slice it. Is that fair? I don't know - maybe it is, but it's not honest. Maybe market value of this particular car is invoice plus double the holdback amount. But because we have to live with this system where not only do you show me your invoice, you brag about showing it and make it the central focus point of the deal, I have to jack around with all these other issues like holdbacks and ad fees.
The invoice is the problem. All this other stuff stems from that.
A little background for how I got here to this forum. My fiance had been in the market for a new car, and I had been researching models and prices for her, which is what drew me here. She settled on a Honda Accord last week, and we made what I thought and still think was a "good deal". I'm perfectly happy with what she paid, especially for the quality of the car she got, but it's always been very irritating to me that the consumer has to wade through so much garbage to get to that point. This was the first new car purchase I've been involved with since the Internet took off, and even though the salesman was a nice guy, not pushy, and easy to work with, he would have gladly let us write that check for $2000 more than we did and not thought twice about it, had I not had this tool at my disposal and done my homework and held firm. Say what you will about the consumer benefitting from the system (and we did), but that fact alone is proof positive of the inherent sleaziness built into your industry. It's not going to change until you get rid of the invoice.
Lonesome says - "I really am trying to understand where you guys are coming from." Lonesome, I don't believe that for one minute.
You want to vent? Fine. We all need to do that from time to time. But to keep metaphorically pounding the table with charges of dishonesty and sleeziness when you've offered no personal example of either, and when in fact you and your fiance managed to negotiate a good deal strikes me as just plain vindictive.
Reading your last post, you managed to say something was both fair and dishonest at the same time in the same sentence. You also managed to say that a system which can benefit the consumer is proof positive of its inherant sleeziness.
Like Landru2 says, you're a moving target. You keep changing the terms of the debate ignoring my airline pricing example offered in response to your request for another business with widely varying pricing for the same product. Now you want someone to offer another business which "forces" you "to do your best to find out what the [seller] paid for the product." Guess what? Not even the auto business forces you to do that. Like you claim to believe, who cares what the invoice is. Just say "OK Mr. Dealer, and $1 over invoice comes to how much in total for the car." It's either an acceptable price to you or it isn't. Again, what's your beef?
Like some of the others have said, I'm not in the auto business myself, but it would have to be difficult dealing with as much unfocused anger as you appear to have. It seems to me that you're not interested in hearing explanations and achieving some level of understanding so much as you seem to want some sort of blanket mea culpa from the dealers on this board.
Still my point. It is very easy to find out what a good deal on a car is. You shop the identical product at a few dealers. You can use an Internet retailer like carsdirect.com for a price as well perhaps. You now have a real good idea what the car sells for. You take the deal you like. You've gotten your best price and holdback, invoice, advertising fees never entered into the equation. Back to the loaf of bread, jeans at Walmart analogy - you basically did teh same thing. You saw hwat the jeans sold for at Walmart and Kmart and wherever else you went and you bought the best price. You didn't compare Walmart's invoice on the jeans and whether they had factored more advertising costs into them than Kmart. You bought the bread at Albertson's instead of the A&P because it was on sale.
This really isn't rocket science as much as some would like it to be.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
I agree with fezo - if you are not willing or don't have time to shop around, you're probably not going to get the best deal. Personally, I'd prefer to see all the extra fees (advertising, holdback, doc fees, etc.) up front so I can determine the real cost rather than have a dealer lowball me with "$100 over invoice" and then spring them on me at the last moment.
Isn't the travel industry in general full of promotions, packages and negotiated rates? Hotels, rental cars, cruises and the like all have special rates. Who would know if I got a deal on a rental car upgrade and the person behind me didn't?
Mirth - I totally agree with the desire to not have things sprung at the last second, and just maybe, that's what happened to Lonesome to get him all wound up. But the answer, as Fezo implied, is to not assume you know what "invoice" is when someone says "$X over invoice," and thereby set yourself up to be surprised. Rather, politely insist that they turn that phrase into an actual total dollar amount. Or better yet an out-the-door amount.
The total price is the price. That's what you pay; not $X over invoice. $1 over an invoice $99 more than you expected is exactly the same deal as $100 over an invoice that matched your expectation to the penny. As long as the total price is right, you don't have to agree with, nor should you even care, how they slice the baloney to buy a car. Arguing with a dealer over what is in or out of his invoice is simply fruitless. You're not going to change the dealer's mind, and you're certainly not going to dazzle him with your superior reasoning and negotiating skills.
Invoices are not some phony document created solely to confuse buyers. They are actual corporate documents that are used to conduct business between the dealer and the manufacturer.
Like many buyers, I was stuck in the "invoice" trap, but after reading these boards will endeavor to eliminate the word from discussions and politely insist on OTD $dollars$. I'm optimistic it will improve the experience.
In the end that is the only number that matters. Compare that and take the lowest one unless you just absolutely cannot stomach the dealership (we have one or two of those around) in which case take the next best - it'll be a very close price anyway and in teh long run a better deal.
2015 Mazda 6 Grand Touring, 2014 Mazda 3 Sport Hatchback, 1999 Mazda Miata 2004 Toyota Camry LE, 1999.
"invoice" is used nowadays as a psychological tool by both the manufacturers and dealers - as a "stop-loss" barrier.
"100 over invoice" sounds like a great deal to the customer. So why do dealerships slobber all over them?
Well the market value of the car ain't "invoice."
The dealer doesn't pay "invoice" (not after all the rebates the customer has no hope of knowing about are factored in)
The manufacturer could reduce his price to the dealer in an above board manner, and the dealer could in return reduce his price to the customer in the same, like manner.
But that would cost them money. No barrier.
Save yourself the aggravation. Use your own calculator and demand that all competitive offers be termed in what it takes to move the car off the curb.
Well, I guess I stand corrected. There's a shopping mall in a cave in a third world country that operates in a manner similar to American auto dealers. I'll sleep well tonight.
Airline ticket prices may well be confusing and aggravating, but that's not analogous because the airline doesn't price the ticket at "$50 over our cost". The airline basically says "we've got to take this bird from Dallas to Chicago whether it has one passenger or 200. It's going to cost us $X to do so no matter what. If you commit to us 14 days before we take off that you'll be there, that helps us plan ahead and it's worth $Y to us, therefore we're willing to sell you this ticket for $200." Then, 8 hours before it takes off, and the airline has sold enough tickets to cover the cost of the flight, but there's still some seats left, they might say "we'll take you Chicago for $100 but you gotta get here this afternoon". That $100 is pure profit to them, but most consumers aren't willing or able to risk that the seat will be available. If you can, great. Or, they say "dang, Microsoft, you sure fly a lot of people all over the world. If you let them fly with us, we'll give you a discount because we can make it up on the sheer volume of flyers you supply."
But they don't say "you can fly today if you give us $25 over our cost to operate this plane" because then my only recourse in determining if that's a fair deal is to verify the airline's cost.
You could, however, argue that the $10 gate tax that some airports charge is somewhat analogous to ad fees, except that it's a mandatory tax levied by some duly authorized governing body.
I think the airline analogy is closer than you think. Airline ticket prices are based less on helping the airline "plan ahead", and more on supply and demand. If a given flight is near full 14 days, 21 days, or 6 mos. before it leaves, you are not going to get a good deal, you will pay through the nose. Similarly, on the day of the flight, if the flight is near full, you will pay full fare. If there are a lot of seats available on or close to the day of the flight however, you may be able to get a deal, through Orbitz or Priceline or some other consolidator (don't try to get a cheap fare on the day of the flight from the airline directly, you'll be unpleasantly surprised).
Airline pricing models are based on some very sophisticated algorithms, and advance planning is I'm sure one variable that is taken into consideration. But one thing is constant - if demand is low, prices are low,and if demand is high, prices rise accordingly. Just like the auto industry.
Actually, I far prefer buying a car than an airline ticket. With a car, you can find enough information, including invoice, to know what a good deal is for a particular vehicle in a particular market at a particular time. However, the airlines use such sophisticated yield management software that the 100 people on a plane could have easily paid 30 different prices to go from the same Point A to the same Point B. So what is a "good deal" there? Or, of course, you could not worry about a "good deal" and just be happy that you feel you got good value for your money and were willing to pay the price you did.
Invoice is exactly what a dealer pays for a car. When the car arrives on our lot we finance the invoice amount with the bank holding our floor plan. Rebates and Incentives are paid later by the manufacturer and holdback as well.
The problem is American consumers are stupid enough to keep responding to this type of advertising. Consumers like to think they are getting a deal, and buying a car for cost seems like to good a deal to pass up.
There's something that's bugged me for a while, concerning the different way regional ad fees and destination charges are handled. The reason given for the fact that ad fees aren't on the "Internet" invoices is that they vary too greatly from market to market. So what about the destination charge? It costs different amounts to ship a car to different places. Yet the manufacturers smear the differents costs into one number that appears on (most?) window stickers. Why don't the manufacturers do the same thing with ad fees? It sounds like these fees are on most mfgs' invoices, and they're going to stay, so why aren't these fees "smeared" out, and the same on every invoice, like destination charges are?
The difference is that destination is part of the Mulroney(?) sticker. Its regulated by law and not allowed to vary from place to place. Regional advertising is not regulated and therefore becomes sort of a balancing item between the dealer and the manufacturer. That's one reason invoice can vary (and seemingly tick off no small number of buyers) while MSRP does not.
If I've got the details wrong, I'm sure Bill or one of the others will set me straight. I hope this helps.
Gheeez, I fly alot .. talk about discrepancies. ..l.o.l...
Look up travel.com, cheap tickets.com, cheap fares .com, etc, etc -- then look em' up again in about an hour or so. The fares bounce around by the hundreds of dollars.
So, let's use a different analogy ... cus' that dog just won't hunt.
Somewhere on Edmunds.com where the mini-vans are compared to one another, it states NA to dealer holdback. Is this true? Is there a dealer holdback associated with the Sedona? I had a dealer try to add $562 to the invoice as dealer hold back and another $404 for marketing. I have read that the marketing fee should be no more than 1% of the invoice amount which is no-where close to $404.
Also, I was told he was sellimg me the vehicle 250 above invoice but somewhere in the money line there was no $1000 rebate deducted from the bottom line.
So, whenever making an offer, are we to figure the invoice cost subtract the "dealer holdback" if applicable and subtract the rebates/incentives then add back 250-500 for profit and all the other strange/hidden fees that pop up on the form after the fact such as marketing, documentation fees, etc.?
Hi tlgp. The dealer that you are working with should not be adding dealer holdback to your vehicle's invoice price. Dealer holdback is not a fee that is charged to dealers, but a portion of the cost of the vehicle to the dealership that they actually get back from the manufacturer. The dealer invoice price, as it is stated here at Edmunds.com and all other sources for this sort of information, already includes dealer holdback. If the invoice price that you have been shown is close to the invoice price that is available on this Web site and they are trying to add holdback to it, you are essentially being charged it twice.
As far as the dealer advertising charge goes, I suppose that it is possible that they are charged $400 by their manufacturer for this. Either way, the most important number to you as a consumer is the total amount of money that you are going to have to spend to drive off in the minivan that you are interested in. The easiest, and least confusing, way for you to look at your deal is to look at the out-the-door price of this car. This means get a quote for the total drive off cost of this minivan. This prevents dealers from using all of these little fees to cloud the big picture. Once you have the out-the-door price, comparison shop at a couple of different Kia dealerships and go with the best overall deal. Of course, make sure that you feel comfortable with the dealership that you ultimately end up purchasing from.
Just get the total out-the-door cost and compare those. If a dealer wants to try to do something funny, it will show up there.
I don't know what they tried to tell you, but holdback is not something charged to you, but given to the dealer by the manufacturer when the vehicle is sold. (As the host just said.) This is how dealers can sell you a car for "$1 below Invoice!" and not go out of business. The dealer buys the car from the manufacturer and you buy the car from the dealer. Kind of like (a little) buying toilet paper from Target. Target buys the toilet paper from Kimberly Clark, and you buy it from Target. Well, your dealer buys the car and has to pay interest on the loan from the bank on that car until it sells. Manufacturers started the holdback program, I believe, in the 1970s when interest rates were above 20% APR. Dealers were going out of business because they could not make money due to the large amount of money they owed for thier inventory. Manufacturers stepped in and provided a kick back on the sale of a unit by way of a percentage of the invoice or sticker (depending on manufactuer). It is with this money that dealers are able to pay their bills to stay in business so you can get your car serviced or repaired later--because they don't make much money at all at the time of the sale. This is why most dealers won't negotiate on holdback when making a deal. A lot will tell you they don't need your business if you tell them you want them to dip into holdback in order to make the sale. Of course, sometimes they do, but those are isolated incidents.
Anyway, just ask for the OTD price, and compare those. Good luck!
What happened to the holdback information that Edmund's used to provide? As I recall it was included in the pricing information on vehicles and I haven't noticed it lately.
(Sorry for the cross post in Smart Shopper area - thought some Kia owners might have personal knowledge)
I am working on a deal on a 2002 Kia Sedona and was hoping for some advise. The deal I have is for $300 over invoice + $200 if not on their lot for a total of $500 over invoice. I was shooting for a fair deal for both sides - I never mentioned holdbacks, dealer cash, etc. (in my view that's their business).
So the real question came down to "what exactly is their invoice?" I know that there are legimate advertising charges over and above what is shown here or any other pricing site.
What I was told - from two different dealers - is that over and above dealer invoice are charges for:
Advertising: $379 Kia Customer Satisfaction $ 35 HOLDBACK $562
I thought holdback was part of inovice and refunded to the dealer quarterly? Any help out there? Is this legit? I don't mind paying the other two as I understand that is part of the true cost to the dealer.
I read the above posts and I am now extra curious that what was quoted to me was the exact same figure as to tlgp. Seems too coincidential. I am in Peoria, IL.
Edmunds.com does not show a search for a new 2002 F-250. kellybluebook does, but only shows me the MSRP and the invoice price. Isn't there a "real" price that the dealer pays that is actually below the invoice price? How/where do I find this? What about "holdbacks", what websites do I go to, to find more information?
I have read a article on the web about this, you v=can find it at www.carbuyingtips.com and you can also go to the website fightingchance. com bear in mind that the fighting chance website charges a fee for this service, I believe it is $30. Check it out and if you are successful pass the information on.
I was just able to look up anything I wanted on the 2002 F250,from MSRP to Dealer invoice where are you not looking ?????? This site makes it so easy you can't go wrong!!!!!!
Comments
A third-party source lists invoice info, say a website.
So customer looks up invoice info, offers, say, $500 over that. But the actual invoice is different! Say that dealer is hit with $275 in regional advertising asessments.. ahh.. But kbb.com says the invoice is $17,856.50 and the dealer says $275 over that...
That's when this comes into play..
Bill
Look, I don't give a rat's patoot that you have to pay an ad fee to somebody in Sweden. That's your problem. That's a cost of doing business - to YOU. You build that cost into whatever final price you choose to sell me the car. Are you next going to itemize out some fee for the insurance that you have to pay so I can test drive a car? Are you going to tack on an extra $5 to pay for the courtesy coffee I get while waiting on you to go "talk to the sales manager"? Where does this end?
Can any of you show me one other industry in this country that makes its retail customers go through this nonsense?
My only point is this - I should not have to care what your invoice is. That's not something I should even have to consider on my end of this transaction. In fact, it's really none of my damned business. But you people - dealers, if that's who I'm talking to - came up with this stuff. YOU are the ones who have forced me to make it my business, because of the marketing practices that YOU have chosen to utilize.
I don't care if the grocery store paid $1 for a bag of potatoes that they are trying to sell to me for $2. I don't have to sit down and ask to see the grocery store's invoice and figure out how they got to $2 and wonder if I'm getting ripped off. I don't care if $1.00 a bag is a fair profit for potatoes. The market figures that out for me, because I can easily see if the store down the street sells potatoes for $2.50 or $1.75. I can't do that for cars, because I have to invest untold hours researching your so-called "invoice" and wading through "ad fees" and nebulous other "fees" and "charges" and "options" just to get to the point where I can realistically haggle over a price that's a moving target to begin with. Furthermore, I know that that grocery store is going to charge the next guy $2 and the next and the next. They won't charge somebody $1.50 for that same bag of potatoes just because he squawks loud. So yeah, in some respect I guess it IS about not paying more than my neighbor, and about him not paying more than me.
People, this is the way YOUR INDUSTRY chooses to do business. Don't get snippy with us consumers just because we're trying to figure out the game.
You are obviously new to the site....so sit back and listen to the "other side" ...you might learn a bit....esp from guys like Bill, landru, Terry, etc
This may well be a waste of time here.. But I'll try and explain this, as I apparently was not clear enough.
1) You assume that dealers are responsible for the invoice info being public. Neither us nor the manufacturers are. In fact, the manufacturers could care less if what is posted by third parties is accurate or not. To quote an old Ford rep "Its not our responsibility to determine whether or not internal corporate cost information posted by a third party is accurate or not".
However, things are what they are. What I was trying to explain above is that there are charges on invoices that are indeed legitimate and indeed part of the invoice that are not always shown online. However, you can believe what you want, reality notwithstanding.
If it were up to me, they might as well be accurate. Example. EVERY SINGLE Volkswagen sold inthe US has an item on the invoice for port prep (There are other charges as well that are nationwide). Edmunds.com does not list this item.
Yes, they are costs of doing business. The cost of the car. Sort of like the costs of options, destination charges, base invoice costs of cars, etc.
If a dealer charges a separate advertising fee after the deal is done, it is quite likely to be bogus. (Such as a preprinted charge on a buyer's order).
As far as "wasting untold hours" That is also your decision. I am a partner in a large real estate company inthe NY City area. We have a large fleet of company vehicles. Largely for my own amusement, I am in charge of buying them.
I recently had to buy a couple of Pickup trucks. I scanned the boards here, realized that $500 or so over invoice was quite doable, made a phone call, secured a price for 2 equipped the way that I needed them, and made the deal. It usually takes me no more than 48 hours after hearing "Bill, we need to buy/lease an X" to signing the papers and bringing a check.
Do I care what the invoice is? Not really. IMO, what does it really matter? What matters is what I pay for the vehicle. I do look up the invoice on edmunds, but I also consider the info much like any other Third Party information. I try to be objective, much as any intelligent person ought to be.
That being said, this is not how my industry chooses to do business. But things are what they are. I'm fine with that. However, if the 3rd party information was a bit more accurate, it would be a lot easier for all involved. Technically, when it comes right down to it, I have yet to see a logical argument that a customer should have this information, or that the profit margin inthe sale of a car really matters. Logically, I dont see how it could matter. A customer should concentrate onbuying what they want for the best price they can obtain.
As far as myself, I do not work for a Volvo dealership any longer, and I do not own one. I do, however, owna dealership.
Bill
You said your industry does not do business this way. That just about says it all. I'm still waiting for somebody to show me one that does.
I can save $.25 on a loaf of bread at Safeway if I give them a bunch of personal information and get a "club card." Why should I have to pay more because I don't want to tell Safeway my life story?
I can't buy consumer electronics without a usually obnoxious pitch for some kind of "service plan." Pay $40 to warranty a $99 VCR, ya right.
The local waterbed shop says I'll save thousands if I buy this weekend only. Funny, they told me that last weekend.
A local parts shop advertises remote starters for $49. Great... oh, that's plus installation ($299).
Welcome to retailing in a free market. It's a total cop-out to say that any industry chooses how it does business. A market is made up of buyers and sellers. Both have influence on how it operates. Believe me, if car dealers could impose their will on the buying public you wouldn't be paying close to invoice.
I realize full well that the invoice numbers I get on Edmunds and other sites is third party information. But as you so correctly put it, things are what they are, and that's the best I have to go on, and it's something, and for all intents and purposes it seems to be pretty darn accurate.
landru2, you're missing the boat entirely. You bring up some advertising gimmicks, not a single one of which says "Hey Mr. Consumer - I'm offering you bread/waterbeds/VCR's at $1 over my cost, and I'll show you my invoice to prove it to you, but if you go checking around to find out whether this invoice I show you is my true cost or not, then I'll have to tack on more fees so I can make a profit".
My point, and really my only point, is that THIS system, where we consumers are almost derelict in our duties if we don't thoroughly research the cost of this product to the seller, is the system the auto industry has chosen. Of course dealers would rather nobody pay close to invoice. You don't pay Sam Walton close to invoice, but Mr. Sam never tried to showed you his invoice to begin with. This system is YOUR fault, and you don't have a right to complain because now that the playing field has been leveled a bit you can only about squeeze out single digit profits.
Second - If as you say, the playing field has been leveled a bit and that dealers can only squeeze out single digit profits, then you as a consumer are the one who benefits. So what's the problem, what's your beef? Seriously, what's your beef? Is it some fear that someone else somewhere bought the same car for $XXX less than you did? Or is it that you have to invest some time and work to get that very best deal?
Finally, You keep calling for someone to cite another industry where prices vary as much and people are as ignorant of the true price as the auto industry. Very well, do you ever fly lonesomeduv? On any given flight, how many different prices were paid by the hundred or so coach passengers all receiving the identical product and service. The same departure time, the same origin and destination, the same arrival time the same meals right down to the same bag of peanuts. And if you don't know what I'm talking about then obviously you haven't tried to price airline tickets.
CWJ
Ed
They can't comprehend that a business actually has to make money so they can get paid.
Lonesome, What you need to do is go out a purchase any type of business and then you may have a better grip on things.
Nonetheless, I do agree with the poster who pointed out that Edmunds and the like really should just list the darned ad and port fees along with everything else. How many ugly negotiation sessions have taken place in the last several years because of this strange omission?
Yeah, buying a car can be confusing but the more you define your issues the easier it gets. The fact that you can get invoice prices and an industry opinion on what charges are legit and what aren't are all well and good but these are not your issues.
Your issues are you want a car that satisfies your particular need. One of the best favors you can do yourself is to nail down just what car that may be - down to options and whatever else there might be there and then let the guys that sell compete with each other. After talking with a few dealers and keeping yourself (and them) on task you will figure out who is giving you the best deal. You may also find out that you are more comfortable with a dealer A who happens to charge $75 more than dealer B and decide that's the way to go.
Real life example - two years ago I bought a Honda Accord EX sedan. I went to carsdirect.com and priced it there. I checked a coupel of teh screamer guys to get a feel for their prices and I brought what I had to the dealer in town. He was straight as could be. Offered it for $100 more than the carsdirect.com price and very nicely said that was what he could do. If I wanted to buy through carsdirect or go grind with the screamer feel free but if I wanted to buy from him here was the exact number. I thanked him, slep on it and bought from him the next day - effortlessly and quickly.
Now I had issues and choices this whole time but not a one of them involved invoice, holdback, advertising fees (all of which were there to see). You're worrying about the wring issies - shop price and comfort.
btw, I'm still waiting for somebody to show me another industry that operates like this.
The original point of this thread was that some dealer wanted a customer to pay for the holdback. Since we stupid non-dealership owners are told that the holdback is a sum paid by the manufacturer to the dealer, the customer was rightly confused as to why the dealer should be paid this amount twice.
Rather than a resounding "because he's a crooked S.O.B. and you should take your business elsewhere", the general response from most of the dealer types here was "don't sweat it - if you're willing to pay the price for the the car you want, why does it matter?", or the even more incredulous "looks like a good deal to me!", completely and most likely intentionally missing the point of the original question.
You guys seem confused as to why people haggle over $100. Well, why do YOU haggle over $100? That's a week's worth of groceries for some people. Maybe that's a kid's tuition payment, or a doctor's bill. To the dealer it's the electric bill or inventory tax. That's why it matters, that's why we haggle.
You scratch your head wondering why people balk at paying an ad fee, assuming that since you have to pay it, everybody should understand. But would you pay $1 just to walk through the door at the local mall, to pay for the mall owner's liability insurance should you trip over a sales display outside The Gap? It's the same concept, and it's just a stupid way to do business. Maybe you're forced into it by the manufacturer, but from my end, that's a "so what?". You want me to pay $400 so you can run commercials?? That doesn't seem to strike any of you as idiotic, yet you accuse ME of not knowing how to run a business.
The whole crux of this problem is the invoice. That's what this is all about. If you people hadn't interjected the almighty invoice into the process, albeit many moons ago, you wouldn't have to eke it out on single digit markups today. I wouldn't care if you get the holdback twice because I wouldn't, and shouldn't, know about it. This system - unique to the auto industry as far as I can tell - is your own damned fault. Why is that so hard for some of you to admit?
And you know, I haven't even brought up the issue of trade-ins. I'll save that for another day or thread, if I still care.
This was probably a Toyota where the holdback is broken out on the invoice (Customer saw invoice and got confused).
I.E. Edmunds lists base Invoice of a Camry, at, say $18,655. Say there is $700 in Holdback. The actual Toyota Invoice from Toyota would probably show the car having an invoice cost of $17,955 plus $700 holdback equalling $18,655 (Or whatever it may be).
I hope this makes sense.
Bill
Maybe cut the vitriol and actually read the posts - carefully this time. The poster was not being charged twice for the holdback. They were just not aware of how to actually read a Toyota invoice. It's been explained in a few posts now. To consider a dealer a crook because a customer can't understand an internal business document seems a little unfair.
Since your enmity for the car business appears to be quite profound, might I suggest that you just avoid the auto industry altogether. After all, no new car could be worth the hell you make it out to be. Just stick with used cars from private parties. There's never any problems with those types of sales.
Is your point that the Edmunds of the world don't always have the right invoice info, or at least that they don't always explain it clearly? If so, I not only accept that, I would expect it because this is third party information I get here. But in this specific example of the holdback, can you not see why it would make us go "ARRGGHHH!!!" to see holdback listed on an invoice, regardless of whether Edmunds had it right or not, since the deal in this case was "$400 over invoice"?
So once again, we are back to this notion that invoice is not really invoice. Invoice typically implies the amount the seller pays his source for the product. If that amount also includes an additional sum that the seller is going to receive from his source, and the price he wants me to pay is $400 above that, he's getting the holdback twice no matter how you slice it. Is that fair? I don't know - maybe it is, but it's not honest. Maybe market value of this particular car is invoice plus double the holdback amount. But because we have to live with this system where not only do you show me your invoice, you brag about showing it and make it the central focus point of the deal, I have to jack around with all these other issues like holdbacks and ad fees.
The invoice is the problem. All this other stuff stems from that.
A little background for how I got here to this forum. My fiance had been in the market for a new car, and I had been researching models and prices for her, which is what drew me here. She settled on a Honda Accord last week, and we made what I thought and still think was a "good deal". I'm perfectly happy with what she paid, especially for the quality of the car she got, but it's always been very irritating to me that the consumer has to wade through so much garbage to get to that point. This was the first new car purchase I've been involved with since the Internet took off, and even though the salesman was a nice guy, not pushy, and easy to work with, he would have gladly let us write that check for $2000 more than we did and not thought twice about it, had I not had this tool at my disposal and done my homework and held firm. Say what you will about the consumer benefitting from the system (and we did), but that fact alone is proof positive of the inherent sleaziness built into your industry. It's not going to change until you get rid of the invoice.
You want to vent? Fine. We all need to do that from time to time. But to keep metaphorically pounding the table with charges of dishonesty and sleeziness when you've offered no personal example of either, and when in fact you and your fiance managed to negotiate a good deal strikes me as just plain vindictive.
Reading your last post, you managed to say something was both fair and dishonest at the same time in the same sentence. You also managed to say that a system which can benefit the consumer is proof positive of its inherant sleeziness.
Like Landru2 says, you're a moving target. You keep changing the terms of the debate ignoring my airline pricing example offered in response to your request for another business with widely varying pricing for the same product. Now you want someone to offer another business which "forces" you "to do your best to find out what the [seller] paid for the product." Guess what? Not even the auto business forces you to do that. Like you claim to believe, who cares what the invoice is. Just say "OK Mr. Dealer, and $1 over invoice comes to how much in total for the car." It's either an acceptable price to you or it isn't. Again, what's your beef?
Like some of the others have said, I'm not in the auto business myself, but it would have to be difficult dealing with as much unfocused anger as you appear to have. It seems to me that you're not interested in hearing explanations and achieving some level of understanding so much as you seem to want some sort of blanket mea culpa from the dealers on this board.
CWJ
This really isn't rocket science as much as some would like it to be.
The total price is the price. That's what you pay; not $X over invoice. $1 over an invoice $99 more than you expected is exactly the same deal as $100 over an invoice that matched your expectation to the penny. As long as the total price is right, you don't have to agree with, nor should you even care, how they slice the baloney to buy a car. Arguing with a dealer over what is in or out of his invoice is simply fruitless. You're not going to change the dealer's mind, and you're certainly not going to dazzle him with your superior reasoning and negotiating skills.
CWJ
True fact: I went to a mall built into the side of a cliff in Peru recently, and I had to pay $1 to get in.
So your argument is invalid.
In the end that is the only number that matters. Compare that and take the lowest one unless you just absolutely cannot stomach the dealership (we have one or two of those around) in which case take the next best - it'll be a very close price anyway and in teh long run a better deal.
"100 over invoice" sounds like a great deal to the customer. So why do dealerships slobber all over them?
Well the market value of the car ain't "invoice."
The dealer doesn't pay "invoice" (not after all the rebates the customer has no hope of knowing about are factored in)
The manufacturer could reduce his price to the dealer in an above board manner, and the dealer could in return reduce his price to the customer in the same, like manner.
But that would cost them money. No barrier.
Save yourself the aggravation. Use your own calculator and demand that all competitive offers be termed in what it takes to move the car off the curb.
Airline ticket prices may well be confusing and aggravating, but that's not analogous because the airline doesn't price the ticket at "$50 over our cost". The airline basically says "we've got to take this bird from Dallas to Chicago whether it has one passenger or 200. It's going to cost us $X to do so no matter what. If you commit to us 14 days before we take off that you'll be there, that helps us plan ahead and it's worth $Y to us, therefore we're willing to sell you this ticket for $200." Then, 8 hours before it takes off, and the airline has sold enough tickets to cover the cost of the flight, but there's still some seats left, they might say "we'll take you Chicago for $100 but you gotta get here this afternoon". That $100 is pure profit to them, but most consumers aren't willing or able to risk that the seat will be available. If you can, great. Or, they say "dang, Microsoft, you sure fly a lot of people all over the world. If you let them fly with us, we'll give you a discount because we can make it up on the sheer volume of flyers you supply."
But they don't say "you can fly today if you give us $25 over our cost to operate this plane" because then my only recourse in determining if that's a fair deal is to verify the airline's cost.
You could, however, argue that the $10 gate tax that some airports charge is somewhat analogous to ad fees, except that it's a mandatory tax levied by some duly authorized governing body.
Airline pricing models are based on some very sophisticated algorithms, and advance planning is I'm sure one variable that is taken into consideration. But one thing is constant - if demand is low, prices are low,and if demand is high, prices rise accordingly. Just like the auto industry.
The problem is American consumers are stupid enough to keep responding to this type of advertising. Consumers like to think they are getting a deal, and buying a car for cost seems like to good a deal to pass up.
ad fees and destination charges are handled. The reason given for the fact that ad fees
aren't on the "Internet" invoices is that they vary too greatly from market to market. So what
about the destination charge? It costs different amounts to ship a car to different places.
Yet the manufacturers smear the differents costs into one number that appears on (most?)
window stickers. Why don't the manufacturers do the same thing with ad fees? It sounds like
these fees are on most mfgs' invoices, and they're going to stay, so why aren't these fees
"smeared" out, and the same on every invoice, like destination charges are?
Erik
If I've got the details wrong, I'm sure Bill or one of the others will set me straight. I hope this helps.
CWJ
Gheeez, I fly alot .. talk about discrepancies. ..l.o.l...
Look up travel.com, cheap tickets.com, cheap fares .com, etc, etc -- then look em' up again in about an hour or so. The fares bounce around by the hundreds of dollars.
So, let's use a different analogy ... cus' that dog just won't hunt.
Terry.
Now whether or not its what certain people around here want to hear.. that's another story.
Bill
Also, I was told he was sellimg me the vehicle 250 above invoice but somewhere in the money line there was no $1000 rebate deducted from the bottom line.
So, whenever making an offer, are we to figure the invoice cost subtract the "dealer holdback" if applicable and subtract the rebates/incentives then add back 250-500 for profit and all the other strange/hidden fees that pop up on the form after the fact such as marketing, documentation fees, etc.?
Help!
As far as the dealer advertising charge goes, I suppose that it is possible that they are charged $400 by their manufacturer for this. Either way, the most important number to you as a consumer is the total amount of money that you are going to have to spend to drive off in the minivan that you are interested in. The easiest, and least confusing, way for you to look at your deal is to look at the out-the-door price of this car. This means get a quote for the total drive off cost of this minivan. This prevents dealers from using all of these little fees to cloud the big picture. Once you have the out-the-door price, comparison shop at a couple of different Kia dealerships and go with the best overall deal. Of course, make sure that you feel comfortable with the dealership that you ultimately end up purchasing from.
Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
I don't know what they tried to tell you, but holdback is not something charged to you, but given to the dealer by the manufacturer when the vehicle is sold. (As the host just said.) This is how dealers can sell you a car for "$1 below Invoice!" and not go out of business. The dealer buys the car from the manufacturer and you buy the car from the dealer. Kind of like (a little) buying toilet paper from Target. Target buys the toilet paper from Kimberly Clark, and you buy it from Target. Well, your dealer buys the car and has to pay interest on the loan from the bank on that car until it sells. Manufacturers started the holdback program, I believe, in the 1970s when interest rates were above 20% APR. Dealers were going out of business because they could not make money due to the large amount of money they owed for thier inventory. Manufacturers stepped in and provided a kick back on the sale of a unit by way of a percentage of the invoice or sticker (depending on manufactuer). It is with this money that dealers are able to pay their bills to stay in business so you can get your car serviced or repaired later--because they don't make much money at all at the time of the sale. This is why most dealers won't negotiate on holdback when making a deal. A lot will tell you they don't need your business if you tell them you want them to dip into holdback in order to make the sale. Of course, sometimes they do, but those are isolated incidents.
Anyway, just ask for the OTD price, and compare those. Good luck!
Car_man
Host
Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards
I am working on a deal on a 2002 Kia Sedona and was hoping for some advise. The deal I have is for $300 over invoice + $200 if not on their lot for a total of $500 over invoice. I was shooting for a fair deal for both sides - I never mentioned holdbacks, dealer cash, etc. (in my view that's their business).
So the real question came down to "what exactly is their invoice?" I know that there are legimate advertising charges over and above what is shown here or any other pricing site.
What I was told - from two different dealers - is that over and above dealer invoice are charges for:
Advertising: $379
Kia Customer Satisfaction $ 35
HOLDBACK $562
I thought holdback was part of inovice and refunded to the dealer quarterly? Any help out there? Is this legit? I don't mind paying the other two as I understand that is part of the true cost to the dealer.
I read the above posts and I am now extra curious that what was quoted to me was the exact same figure as to tlgp. Seems too coincidential. I am in Peoria, IL.
Thanks in advance.
Either the truck is worth it to you or it isn't.
The Edmunds pages you may be looking for are here:
Edmunds Incentives and Rebates
The holdback percentage, if any, is listed in the Prices and Incentives section of individual new car/truck price listings.
kcram
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Smart Shopper and FWI Message Boards
bear in mind that the fighting chance website charges a fee for this service, I believe it is $30. Check it out and if you are successful pass the information on.
Ray T.
Ed