Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

butchbr73 · February 2003

well-known tranmission issues with pre-'02 TL's, I believe.

zueslewis · February 2003

got it right - I'd avoid recommending '99-01 TLs for the transmission woes - not guaranteeing you'll have a problem, but among appraisers it's common knowledge so getting treated fairly on resale may be tough.

Fred - I'd say the ES 300 and '03 TL are neck and neck.

fredvh · February 2003

Why is the 2003 Acura TL on your top-ten recommended list? Can you explain? It is not that I disagree, I just wanted your opinion. The TL is on my short list for my next new vehicle but I am also concerned with the transmission issue. This problem evidently affected some 2002s and some early 2003s also. Supposedly it has been fixed but Acura/Honda have not said much more than that.

isellhondas · February 2003

Unless you happened to own one of the affected cars. As a percentage, the problems were minimal.

mpp2 · February 2003

Thank you for your quick response. I like the Acura myself, but we already have an Accord. We're both not sure how much of a difference we would see between an Acura and an Accord. My area that I live in doesn't have a Lexus or Infiniti dealer very close to me, so I think service may be a problem for those cars. We do have an Acura dealer and the German dealers close. It's definitely something to think about. Also, I'm not clear in reading your response if you've seen many issues with Mercedes reliability. Could you clarify?

bigorange30 · February 2003

Pepe Infiniti is in White Plains, NY only 37 miles away from you. I love the QX4 I bought last year and am looking at a G35 for my next car. You really ought to check them out. The service is the best service experience I have ever had.

mpp2 · February 2003

I forgot about them. We're not going to purchase for a year, so we have some time to think about what we want to do. Don't they also sell Jaguar and Mercedes?

bigorange30 · February 2003

I have never been there. I just looked them up on www.infiniti.com. I doubt if they do though. I have not seen many combo dealerships in the luxury ranks unless they have ties at the manufacturer level. This Ford/Chrysler/Nissan combination seems unlikely. I am curious now to know myself how common this really is.

ateixeira · February 2003

Honda covered the trannies, though. Didn't they even extend the warranties?

But yeah, the base TL has less horsepower and space than the Accord V6. I'm sure it'll get updated, but then your TL will seem outdated.

-juice

im_brentwood · February 2003

If they have Jag.. they just got it.

They do have Mercedes.

zueslewis · February 2003

I'm not impressed with Mercedes reliability - they certainly aren't Hondas. I've seen several disturbing, horrible cases involving Mercedes vehicles, especially with their engine management and electrical systems.

I was involved in a case last year on a CLK430 that went through 7 nav systems in 6 months - of course, the nav CD controls much more than just the nav system - it also controls stereo, speed control, etc.

What really blew my mind was that after putting in 7 systems at over $5,500 each ($38,500), Mercedes wouldn't buy the car back and took it all the way to trial. Wow.

If you have an Accord V-6, the TL may not impress you much.

I like the TL for its power, interior trim and sound system - awesome sound system. To me, also, it's just a good looking car. The 3.2TL and 3.5RL are some of my favorite cars. I never see them in lemon law cases.

steine13 · February 2003

Ve at Mertcedes dont belief in "lemon law".
Vots a Zitronengesetz anyvey?

Seriously, I don't think MB understands how American consumers expect to be treated. And I still believe they put Zetsche in charge of Chrysler Corp because they're a big light truck maker, and Zetsche has experience with European light-truck products. Never mind we're talking completely different markets here...

To stay semi-on-topic; the ES300 is a fantastic car that's VERY pricey to buy used... the TL is probably just as fine a car, but much softer used. I could be wrong, that's what we have the experts for...

Toyota really pulled this luxury car stuff off with Lexus; and the resale is proportionately strong.

-Mathias

zueslewis · February 2003

The Chrysler side of DaimlerChrysler has been in denial of the law for a long time, though - why, I don't know considering some of the garbage they've produced over the years.

This job sure clouds my perspective on vehicles. Cars I thought were junk, I never see. Cars I thought were perfect, that's all I see - weird.

dtwleungnyc · February 2003

Maybe the buyers of those cars had the same expectation as you do. They expect the "junk" cars to be junk, and accepted it, because its normal. The expect the "good" cars to be perfect, and when they are not, they complain? Just a guess.

suvshopper4 · February 2003

You may be right.

My observation - people that have more money tend to tolerate less aggravation. Is that profiling?

jaserb · February 2003

I posted this in "Inconsiderate salespeople" but it kinda got lost in the shuffle (flame war). Is it usual / accepted / ethical practice for a dealer to pull credit on every warm body that walks in the door? I just ordered a credit report and found out the (Lexus) dealer I bought my '87 Alfa from ran my credit, even though I stated numberous times that I'd be paying cash and though nobody in their right mind would finance a 15 yr old car anyway.

Does the dealership have to inform you that they're going to pull your credit? Can I expect this to happen even if I already have the cash and/or financing in hand? I'm pretty careful with my credit, so this has me kinda steamed.

-Jason

grandtotal · February 2003

No it's not usual/accepted/ethical to run your credit without your explicit permission. In some (all?) states it is illegal.

What's wrong with financing a 15 year old car? It's not like you're going to be upside down for most of the loan period as you are with a new car.

isellhondas · February 2003

Most smart dealers will pull credit if they are taking a personal check from you.

They are, after all, handing you they keys to a car. They just want to make sure you are real.

rivertown · February 2003

I get why you're steamed. Folks poking around in your biz w/o a good right to and racking up hits on your credit history which can make a dif to other lenders.

And, it's not necessary either. It's easy enough to check to see if a check's good by calling the bank. LOL, with most banks, the whole thing's automated.

I think it's common practice, though. Gives the dealership a leg up in negotiating with you.

What you gonna do, though?

audia8q · February 2003

Remember, I can call the bank to see if the funds are available but 2 minutes later the guy can go down and take out all the money...when our deposits hits the bank there is no $$$ there....so calling the bank is worthless.

But the odds of a guy with great credit writting a bad check is rather slim. A guy who never paid a bill in his life could very well be a rip off artist and write bad checks all over town. Without a credit report I would never know the guy is a dead-beat or even have a clue to "watch out"...Also, I have found that the ones with the bad credit are the ones who put up a fuss about pulling the credit. (something to hide)

Rich

yaman · February 2003

I think it is unreasonable to expect someone to hand over a valuable piece of equipment in return for a piece of paper and not expect them to try and make sure that the piece of paper is good.Most banks that I know of are not open when car dealers are probably selling a lot of cars-plus how is the bank supposed to know what outstanding chescks are open against an account balance?

So,IMHO, I think it is very reasonable for a car dealer to pull my credit when I am giving him a personel check

bobst · February 2003

We always pay for a car with a personal check, and I think it is OK for the dealer to do a credit check on us.

rivertown · February 2003

Well, okay.

Like I said, I think it's common practice.

im_brentwood · February 2003

We always ask permission, but I frequently run credit checks when the customer wants to pay by personal check.

I had a guy buy a 1998 XJ8 on eBay from me, $18,700 car. We discussed payment, said it had to be certified funds..etc.. Well, he shows up with a personal check, really fought us running his credit report. Well.. 5 collections for bad checks, 2 repos, BK, etc...

I told him that since it was a SunTrust check I had no problem running him over to SunTrust to get certified funds. "You mean you wont take my personal check?"

"Nope".

dglozman · February 2003

Why than I couldn't use my debit card instead of check. Last time I bought a car I wanted to use my debit card for down payment, but I was only allowed to put $2500 on it and for the rest I had to bring a certified check. is it a debit card the same thing as check but without clearing time so dealer can get your money right away?
And why I can use only certain amount from my credit card( I think up to $2000)? I don't know any other states, but at least that what would happen in NY in any dealership. Otherwise I would collect enough miles on my card to fly on next vacation for free:-)

isellhondas · February 2003

Because the CC companies charge hefty fees!

On a low profit deal it makes no sense.

mirth · February 2003

I think they limit the credit card amount because the business pays a fee to MC/VISA that's a percentage of the transaction amount. For a car, that would be a pretty hefty fee.

tiredofmanual · February 2003

Notice the last paragraph:
Does the dealership have to inform you that they're going to pull your credit? Can I expect this to happen even if I already have the cash and/or financing in hand? I'm pretty careful with my credit, so this has me kinda steamed.

I certainly understand if the dealer wanted to make sure I was good for it before taking a check, but they had better ask permission to run my score. Jason is making it sound like the dealer did not ask permission before checking his credit. However, I do wonder how they got enough information to run the score without him knowing. Maybe one of the pieces of paperwork he filled out was a a credit check form and he didn't realize it?

jaserb · February 2003

It sounds like you hit it right on the head - I did pay with a personal check. I offered to run to the CU (2 blocks away) to get a cashier's check once I had the out the door price but they said they didn't have a problem with my check, so I didn't.

I still think they should have asked, though. Had they said something like "oh, you don't need to go get a cashier's check - as long as your credit report looks OK we don't have a problem taking a personal check" I'd probably have responded "well, I'm trying to get a HELOC to do some landscaping right now (I was), so I'd rather not have the inquiry on my credit. I'll just go get that cashier's check".

But no harm done since I got a good rate on my equity line anyway, and I guess I'm a little wiser now. Thanks Bill, Isell and Rich for the insight.

-Jason

im_brentwood · February 2003

Thought I mentioned they should ask..

Probably was in a form that you signed.. burined in the atypical fine print.

jaserb · February 2003

so i just ran down and looked at it. No mention of running the credit report in any print, fine or otherwise, in any of the docs I have. I explicitly signed the "Purchaser to arrange financing" section of the contract. I'm pretty sure I never explicitly gave them my SSN, either, although it is on my driver's license and they obviously took a photocopy of that and my insurance card for the test drive. No, the first I knew about this was going over my credit report.

Live and learn, I guess.

-Jason

ateixeira · February 2003

I'd call them to complain about that. They won't change if they aren't aware it bothers people.

-juice

audia8q · February 2003

I agree that permission should be obtained before running the credit report for any reason.

Rich

mpp2 · February 2003

Thanks for the clarification on Mercededs. And Bill, I mixed Pepe Motors up with Jaguar of White Plains. I checked and Pepe has Infiniti, Mercedes ans Porsche.

Zeus and Dtwleungnyc makes good points about expectations. My first two new cars were Dodges ans my wife's was a Plymouth. They were all reasonably reliable, I got well over 100K miles on all three of them and I was happy with them. I didn't have anything to compare them against. However, after owning my Accord for 2 1/2 years, I look back and the Dodge cars just didn't have that "altogether" feel that the Honda has. I don't think I could be happy with a Chrysler today. Well, except maybe the 300M.

I could never understand what Consumer Reports meant by "refined" until I owned my Honda. I still can't define it in a satisfactory manor, but I know what it is now.

masspector · March 2003

thanks for the info you provided in the last few posts....what is your take on Volvos relative to what you see?

zueslewis · March 2003

(2002-2003) Volvos at all - a good sign.

Last year, we had a bumper crop of 70 series sedans and wagons with major electrical problems.

One lady with an S70 wagon had 27 repair visits, in one year, for electrical problems. We had it documented where after so many visits and so many blown headlights, turn signals lights and fuses, the service manager and parts manager put together a box for her, with 2-3 of each bulb and fuse in the car for her to take with her - to install herself.

She got all her money back, of course, and bought a non-Volvo.

mpp2 · March 2003

Thanks for all of your insight into these lemon law cases you've been involved in. That Mercedes case was mind boggling. You've certainly given a lot of us something to think about. I guess spending a lot of money on a near luxury car doesn't guarantee anything. I guess you just have to buy what you like and hope you don't get a lemon. Do extended warantees help the buyer in cases like the ones you've described? Or have the problems gone so far beyond the norm that the Lemon Law is the only solution?

zueslewis · March 2003

makes it where you don't have repair bills after the warranty is gone, but there's usually a deductible, so if you have repetitive problems, paying a $100 hit per visit can get expensive.

An extended warranty certainly doesn't guarantee that the technicians will do any better in diagnosing the problems. It does, however, tie the manufacturer in for the additional time as it applies to the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Improvement Act - provided you're dealing with a manufacturer-backed plan like GMPP, Ford ESP, HondaCare, etc.

Private plans do NOTHING for you in that sense.

mpp2 · March 2003

Got it. Thanks.

bigorange30 · March 2003

about extended warranties. I would add another. Even though you only have to pay $100/visit, isn't your time and piece of mind worth much more. Any car that you feel like needs an extended warranty is not worth buying at all IMO. I prefer to buy cars that will last a long time without needing alot of major repairs.

I like what my dad says when a salesman tries to sell him an extended warranty. He says "Why, is the car gonna need it? Is your car such poor quality that it is going to need alot of major repairs?"

zueslewis · March 2003

times and I've said it myself.

If all cars were perfect, we wouldn't need service departments. All cars will break eventually - I just don't want to be the lucky guy who pays for it.

Even at our beloved Honda dealerships, the service departments are full up and the parts department gets a workout every day.

bigorange30 · March 2003

I just want one that breaks among the least frequent of them. I first make a list of 5 or so cars that I'm interested in. Right now the list for my next purchase is the Corvette, G35, Boxter, M3, Z4, SC430, S2000. The G35 tops my list because of the reliability of the brand. The corvette is probably my favorite looking one but for $10-20K (depending on whether I got the Z06 or not) it doesn't seem quite worth it when I can get a great looking car like the G35 and have it be dependable for a long time.

Reliability is one of many factors but it is a major factor for me.

mackabee · March 2003

You got it! I'm about to buy a 95 Geo Prizm (distant cousin of the Toyota Corolla) for Mackabee Jrjrjr tomorrow! has 68k on the clock, well maintained, seller asking 3200 for it, I'll offer 2500 and we will probably meet in the middle. Reading the reviews on Edmunds, the car is a solid reliable machine! He needs that on a high school kid working part time about to go to college next year. Of course Dad is helping out with the bill!
: )
Mackabee

rivertown · March 2003

I've got friends planning to buy a Ford Expedition, after getting great service out of their Explorer.

I know squat about SUV's, but I'm thinking GM over Ford in that size range.

They will without doubt buy new. Given that, what would you guys recommend?

steine13 · March 2003

The Prizm a "distand cousin" of the Corolla? Make that "half brother" instead. I don''t think there are 10 major parts different on those cars. Good choice in any case.
On the large SUV: If new, buy a Sequoia. Strictly from a value-over-time perspective. Good deals to be had on '01/'02 Expeditions, though. If new and American, I'd go with the Tahoe. Engine/Tranny should last a loooong time; get used to the plastic and the rattles.
-Mathias

nascar9900 · March 2003

I have reached an agreement with my local dealer on the price on a F150 SuperCrew. The only problem is finding the right truck. The options I want (wait, make that "my wife wants") are not too common (Tow package, Moon roof, Bench seats) and 1 color (and 2 less desireable alternatives).

I'm willing to wait awhile to see if it shows up. The dealer has offered to special order the vehicle and honor the price we agreed.

Question #1 - How often are these orders "messed up" at the factory? I. e. Is 6-8 weeks a realistic expectation?

Question #2 - The price is based on invoice minus $$$ minus rebates in place when the truck shows up. What are the chances that rebates will be less than today's $2500 (may go up tomorrow since GM increased their rebates)?

thel · March 2003

Sequoia: still smaller than the Ford and Chevy

Expedition: Father-in-law had one for a year or two. Even with the 5.4L engine it seemed very sluggish. Feels much narrower than the Chevy

Tahoe/Suburban: Almost quick, gets about 16 mpg, very comfortable and roomy.

Verdict: go with the Chevy. BTW they are very reliable as well.

rivertown · March 2003

Thanks, Steine & Thel

zueslewis · March 2003

Your list, my stats:

Corvette - I did 87 cases in the last year - that's a huge amount considering I only did 120 Ford Focus cases. Horrible reliability, but people are obsessed with these things, so they don't complain.

G35 - no brainer, good choice.

Boxter - like Joey Patalano said on "The Sopranos", "it's a Porsche with Panties" - 63 cases, again, alarmingly poor reliability.

M3 - 18 cases of blown engines in the last year, all but one from middle aged guys and girls, no street racing is ruled out.

Z4 - The Z3 had a bad record, it's a "wait and see" on the Z4.

SC430, S2000 - both good choices, of course.

akangl · March 2003

Just curious......

In the minivan market what are you seeing as far as reliability?

I'm looking at a Dodge Grand Caravan AWD. Are there any years to avoid? I'm hoping to get anywhere from a 99 on up.

I'd rather have a Chevy Tahoe/Suburban, but in the interest of saving money the minivan is where its at. We can buy a fairly new Caravan with low miles for around $12k. Can't touch a Tahoe that's even from this century for under $22k.

Thanks, curiousity gets the best of me sometimes. I had a 96 Windstar.....what a nightmare.

Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

Comments

Helpful Tools

Most popular vehicles

Your Privacy