Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

bowke28 · January 2004

because the "UBS" has negotiated the 'bottom line' price.

bobst · January 2004

Why do you think it is unlikely you will get a good OTD price at a dealer that has large DOC fees?

Have you ever tried ignoring the supposed DOC fee and just offering what you want to? I have, and it seems to work for me.

When we bought our last car, we computed our offer of $20500 OTD assuming no DOC fee. On the bill of sale, there was a DOC fee of $249. However, the bottom line was $20500, and that was all we cared about.

bowke28 · January 2004

exactly the point i was making.

driftracer · January 2004

blessing on doc fees, by any means, I was just addressing a specific question.

Addressing another statement/question, it's actually very ironic that you can usually get a better price at dealerships with the high doc fees and add-on stickers, if all you're shopping is price, simply because of the volume those stores sell.

You'll pay your dues eventually if that's all you're doing.....

jwm271 · January 2004

First, let me say I like your store's policy on fees.
But you still have not addressed my question on why doc fees are the only fee that can cause discrimination.
You said I did not know what I'm talking about, but I still don't have a answer from you.
What about X-Plan rules that say no doc fees are permitted, is that discrimination?

peznt · January 2004

Hello folks;

A dealer purchased for a customer a Toyota Sienna from another dealership. The customer either returned or ended up not buying this Van. It has 600 miles on it. What discounts should I expect. From what I can tell they are still pricing this Van at 6.5% over invoice. This is a popular Van and the price is below MSRP but is the discount enough or is this still considered a new van?

Thanks very much

Peznt

driftracer · January 2004

against in many ways. The doc fee was the only one mentioned, and as for me, the only other fees we deal with are standard license and registration fees, that we collect, that are set by the state.

I can't speak from another dealer's perspective, and would never care to -

X-Plan is a unique fish - only certain people are eligible, and they aren't like regular retail consumers - the dealerships, in most cases, are totally prohibited from any additional profit due to preset agreements with the manufacturer.

Just like an employee discount, that only employees get, I wouldn't consider the doc fee discriminatory as long as all retail consumers pay the same fee.

Again, CONCENTRATE ON THE OTD PRICE !!

prodigalsun · January 2004

Any doc fee above 75 bucks is an attempt to pad profit, pure and simple. The dealership is betting that once an uninformed customer has haggled over the car price, that they'll psychologically think they're "done" negotiating, and the Doc fee flies right under the radar, and is something they HAVE to pay for. That's part of why the most profit in a new car deal takes place in the F&I office.

Sleezy Practice? Maybe
Disingenous? Sure

Moral of the story? Who cares. Be informed. Negotiate OTD pricing, and it won't mean a thing.

driftracer · January 2004

If you say "I'll pay $21,500 for the car, show me what the taxes and license fees are", and they come back with TT&L for $1500, your OTD price is $23,000.

If anything changes with what you've agreed to, walk. Let the salesman know that you'll walk if anything changes, and if the salesman thinks he'll lose your car deal, he'll make sure that everything is on the table.

He comes back after a minute and says "we have a $299 doc fee". You say "that's fine, figure it into the $21,500 I offered, since I can't negotiate taxes and license fees, I don't care where you put it - I'm not paying more than $21,500 for the car".

14chow · January 2004

I only had a few people ever object to our $379 doc fee. We just bump the rate up to make up the difference. One time with a very unruly customer who paid cash, since he didn't want to pay the fee we took an extra long time to file for his title because ooops...those ladies in the office misplaced the paper work. But serious, we get it one way or another. The deal is all about perception, if i'm 4 pounding you, sure I'll deduct for it. We will never lose money.

raybear · January 2004

The dealer I work for has an utterly obscene doc fee, I simply adjust the price of my cars to account for it and to keep pace with the competition.

CarMan@Edmunds · January 2004

Hi Peznt. You are in the market for a vehicle that has been selling extremely well since it was recently redesigned. As a result, consumers normally are not able to negotiate much of a discount on one. What you need to do to evaluate this deal is to figure out how much of a price break you are being given for the 600 miles that this van has on it and whether or not it is an adequate price break. I usually find that dealers are not willing to provide enough of a discount on "new" vehicles with mileage on them for me to personally justify purchasing one over a brand new vehicle.

Car_man
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Smart Shoppers / FWI Message Boards

bobst · January 2004

You had an "unruly customer who paid cash" and negotiated a low OTD price for his car. However, you got back at him by greatly slowing down the process to get him his title, which he paid cash for, by the way.

That's the way to do it. Live by John Kennedy's motto - "Don't get mad, get even".

It sure would be too bad if he told his friends how you got back at him. That might even give car dealers a bad reputation for customer service, and we can't have that.

I like your attitude that "we get it one way or another". You put the money first.

You know, there are other poor misguided dealers that actually try to provide good service to their customers. They figure that if they give good service, the profits will follow. But what do they know?

driftracer · January 2004

and 14chow, guys like you give the rest of us a bad name.

We work our tails off, these dealers who try to run a great store, plus come here on Edmunds to dispell rumors and myths through our own actions of helping people with information and guidance.

We then get some carnival tent guy like you to come here and brag about how you stuck it to some guy because he had the nerve to be financially solvent enough to pay cash AND gripe about your ridiculous doc fee.

You sure showed him! You got personally involved and made sure his title work was held up.

You'd last about 3 seconds at my store, bud...

rroyce10 · January 2004

........ Not counting today, how long have you been in the business ...? ..

Terry.

jwm271 · January 2004

It's easy for you to say "concentrate on the OTD price" because you state that your store does not have a doc fee.
If your customer went to F&I and found a $379. fee & came back to you & asked you to reduce the selling price {and thus your gross profit & commission} would you be willing to do that?
I agree that the above example has no effect on dealer's bottom line, but will directly affect the salesman & he will likely resist the change.

driftracer · January 2004

"If your customer went to F&I and found a $379 fee & came back to you"

I'd fire my F&I manager. If there was a doc fee, it would have already been accounted for in the OTD price. If the customer said "I'm not paying a penny over $20,000 for the car" and we could sell it for that, I'd reduce the price to allow for the doc fee and come in at his figure.

Don't have to worry about that, though, because my store doesn't have a doc fee.

"the above example has no effect on dealer's bottom line"

In your example, it would have a $379 affect on the bottom line. Sales or F&I, it all comes from the same set of numbers - there's no mystery wall between the two, although most salespeople don't get paid on F&I transactions.

driftracer · January 2004

You're a riot, dude.

jwm271 · January 2004

I challenge any dealer to provide verifiable information, ie,state law, court ruling, Attorney General, etc. that any item below is required.
1 A doc fee MUST be charged on a car sale.
2 There is a minimum doc fee on any sale.
3 The fee can't be waived for any customer.

If anyone can prove any of the above, I will apologize, eat some Internet crow, & never gripe about my favorite "pet peeve" again.

bowke28 · January 2004

i dont know about elsewhere, but the doc fee profit has NEVER been figured in my commission. my opinion on it is this:

if there is no objection to it ($249.50), i could care less if the dealer gets it.

if i have to "sell" the doc fee, i should be paid on it. (never happens, though)

if its a deal-breaker, i will make sure it gets waived. if we lose a deal over it, my foot will be buried somewhere in a sales manager's nether regions.

again, other dealers may be different, but ours uses the doc fee to pay a mini deal with...

follow the math for a second with me...

we dealer trade for a car with a deal at invoice. because of the dealer trade, we lose any holdback that may have been left. now we are at a net/net deal. how do they pay me? our doc fees (again $249.50) pay my $125 mini deal, and leave another $124.50 for the actual doc fee.

it allows us to show a lower price for a car and STILL come out in the black, even after paying the commission.

driftracer · January 2004

you're barking up the wrong tree. If a dealer charges a doc fee, it's because they WANT TO, and THEY'RE ALLOWED TO. It's a business decision, just like anything else.

The states don't mandate any doc fees, they just authorize the fee and put a cap on it.

I've never seen a doc fee waived, probably for the reasons mentioned, but if it was, it would simply be deducted from the selling price, I would guess.

kyfdx · January 2004

This isn't a lawyer's forum.. BUT, it is your pet peeve.. Let it go...

driftracer · January 2004

Nothing like reviving up the horse to beat it some more.

Thanks for the legal obsessive reference.

isellhondas · January 2004

Thnak you for leaving a post that enforces the sterotypes we have to live with in this business.

Reading that has caused me to seriously consider leaving these forums.

Good Job!

prodigalsun · January 2004

While I said don't stress about them, they do contribute to the low opinion the public has of car dealers in general.

14chow, Dude, one post like that can in one swell foop undercut all the good work that Terry, Drift, Isell, Audi, cliffy and other sales folks do on these boards.

kyfdx · January 2004

loncray · January 2004

I agree that 14chow's post reinforces the bad ideas that a lot of folks have about car dealers. However, you and Terry and Mack and Cliffy and all the others have done more to educate those same folks about how MOST dealers really are. I can understand you getting frustrated by this sort of thing, but losing you (or any of our other honorable dealers) would greatly diminish these boards. Please stay!

damish003 · January 2004

As a long-timer on the boards, I know that 14chows comments reflect a "no service" oriented personality. Look at how quickly the pros jumped all over him. Any newbies here would quickly conclude that 14chow's mentality is old school and not take him seriously. ISell, I know it gets hard to deal with sometimes, but you're needed here. Truly, if you and some of the other pros leave, then what's left? Fight for what you believe in, which is customer oriented professional service. The industry needs more like you, and so do these boards.

<off soap box>

-Dan-

dbgindy · January 2004

I just took 14 chow's remark with a grain of salt ( which we need here in Indy with the all the snow:-). If he does business "the old way" and it works for him I feel sorry for his customers. One "bad apple" doesn't spoil all the good work of the folks that prod mentioned who are longtime posters. Craig, people respect & listen to you so your resignation is not accepted.:-)

jwm-I'm going to try and talk you down... Please slowly edge away from the edge of the soap box.... that's it ... good... Okay for your new mantra remember OTD price, OTD price, OTD price. :-)

Duncan

akangl · January 2004

I griped about when we bought the Explorer was the DMV fee.........$230!! OUCH!! I questioned it and the F&I lady said that's what DMV tells them to charge. However, I got the registration and plates the other day and the fees were only $130. I'm thinking they charged us that because we bought the truck in Anchorage and they have other fees they have to pay, same thing happened with the Dodge. We live well outside of Anchorage and don't have to pay most of those fees. We ended up with a $130 check back from the Dodge and I'm sure we will get something back on the Explorer.

Doc fee was $199, one of the lowest around.

As for 14chow, I think he'd last about 2.2 seconds as my salesman before I kicked his butt to the curb and went in search of a *real* salesman.

driftracer · January 2004

You go, girl!

qbrozen · January 2004

i agree that the real pros here are sorely needed. So, isell, I hope you were joking.

Seriously, if it weren't for those here and maybe the one I've met in my real-life dealings, I would think all salesfolk are like chow-chow up there.

And as far as he goes, how do we know he is even for real? Seems to me it might could possibly be a disgruntled shopper.

ramped1 · January 2004

14chow is just yanking our chains?

Probably really a lingerie salesman at Wal mart.

tobymichaels · January 2004

I'm trying to decide if the quote I've been given for the supplier program price on an '04 SAAB is really the best deal around. I was quoted $25 over invoice, minus current incentives. All in all a hefty discount from MSRP, but plenty of examples are out there of the same car going for under invoice, minus incentives.

The invoice the dealer showed me for the SAAB 9-5 had line items for employee price, supplier price, and below that something called "DLC" with an amount of $1159. This is the fee the dealer receives from the manufacturer for handling a special program sale, right?

Also, does the dealer still get the holdback percentage even on program deals? $1159 program reward + $770 holdback sounds like quite a windfall for the dealer, compared to his profit on a normal sale.

Of course they tell me that the supplier program price is "non-negotiable," but everything is negotiable and with that program reward plum dangling there why wouldn't they be willing to compromise to seal the deal? Even if the mfg. audits these deals to ensure consistency, I'd expect the dealer to offer me accessories or something to try to close it.

Thanks.

stickguy · January 2004

If you think the supplier price is good, buy the car. if you think it should go for less, offer the dealer what you want to pay (a normal "off the street" deal) and see what happens.

bowke28 · January 2004

employee and supplier prices are set by the manufacturer, and the dealer CANNOT change them, with losing the priveledge of the program as the consequence. if you can negotiate a better deal, more power to you...but my question is this:

how much better can it actually get??? is it worth grinding for hours to get a hundred bucks or so?

people like you are the reason "no-haggle" pricing doesnt work, and people hate buying cars.

14chow · January 2004

So I guess it's old school to try to make a living. I provide great service for my customers. Even the guy who had his title held gave me a 100% on my CSI. I've been in the business for 10 years now. 8 of them at the same store. I would hate to think that I have giving us a bad name. I don't work for mini's. My time is too valuable. I will turn a mini over to a green pea to help him out. I make great money. Most of my customers are either prior customers or referrals. So I guess THEY think my service is good. I do however let them know up front about our doc fee. Like I said most don't object. I give my customers all of our fees up front so they know. Most people don't understand that when you grind all day for the lowest price and then cry about a doc fee all your doing hurting the salesman. The dealership Will get there's. But what about those poor salesmen who like someone said work really hard for a mini. Come on...If you were at my store, You would be blown out. We are in the top 10 in the nation for our brand.
I know you all want to feel warm and fuzzy and be told how good of deal your getting, but you need to realize that we are doing this for a living and to support our family and mini deals just don't cut it. Sorry to offend any of you but being a give away artist won't cover your draw and provide a living for your family. Just my thoughts. Hate or love em, your choice. At least I'm honest.

driftracer · January 2004

Like I said, 2 seconds at my store.

Your "impressive" CSI and time on the job directly conflicts with your attitude. We'd all love to be able to have that attitude, but you know it's not realistic.

If you came here to spew off and talk trash about how you think the world should be, great.

Your admission that you intentionally and fraudulently held up someone's title work took away any chance you had of being seen as a professional.

I think it's time for you to go back out front and tell war stories to the green peas at the smoking area - you fit the mold.

14chow · January 2004

why...are you a manager? Because if you are, I see your point. Units baby, who cares what the salemen makes. Isn't that right. Most managers are paid on hold back and volume. They could care less if they are sold over invoice. Salesmen only get paid over invoice or it is a mini. Turnover is so high in this business because it;s hard to make a living on mini's. Salesmen are a dime a dozen so they know they can find replacments. If say 15 salesmen sell around 15 units each and most of them are mini's they won't last long. However, the manager will be paid dearly for the 225 units. It's just the way it is. Don't get mad at me. Like I said, I do well and treat my customers right.
Think about this. If I make a mini deal, the customer will be treated with respect, get a thank you call and letter, a birthday card and the what not. Now, if I see a decent profit, guess what, they get all of that plus: lunch or dinner, mabey tickets to a sporting event or movie, free service vouchures, a free detail once a month, a gift basket at Christmas. I go overboard for the customers who treat me right. I do everything i can to make them feel special and reccommend me to others. In essence, you get what you pay for.
Like I said, please don't feel mad towards me. It's the managers who are the sharks in this business.

driftracer · January 2004

before you really show that you don't know what's up.

If a salesman makes a mini, the manager makes a mini - if profit is cut down to a giveaway deal, everyone loses (except the customer).

I protect my salespeople - it's my job. If my salespeople blow out because they're making nothing but a mini on every deal, I'm stuck with Mickey's D's rejects for car salesmen, then I have nothing - no one to give a customer any reason to buy, like an educated, well-spoken, well-dressed salesperson who truly knows their product and doesn't have addiction problems.

Being a manager with a mid-sized dealer group is my part-time gig, but I've been a manager for a bunch of years. I know not to bite the hand that feeds me, and I won't run a green pea factory, with young folks churning and burning through ups that we've paid $60-70K a month in advertising to get on the lot - no thanks.

You and I should agree to disagree on this - many consumer here on Edmunds feel that there are some professional car people here, and out there in the world - the more you talk, the less hope they'll ever have of meeting someone who doesn't wear a leisure suit, greasy hair, and white slip-ons. And big rings.

akangl · January 2004

I met someone like you once.......I had to go home and take a shower after that meeting. I have been in car sales, I know the drill, but as a customer I would never, ever deal with someone who believed as you do.

I may be a woman, but I can usually talk circles around most guys in the car business. The salesman that we bought our last 2 vehicles from respected that fact and never tried to pee on me and tell me it was raining. He has earned our business through honesty and integrity, not through smoke, mirrors, and a few cheesy parting gifts.

dbgindy · January 2004

You 2 need to quit holding it in and tell us how you really feel... :-)

Well said by both of you.

Duncan

akangl · January 2004

Careful, you may get your wish........I'm currently cleaning house if that gives you any insight into my mentality today. I just get so tired of pushy, arrogant, egotistical salesmen.

bobst · January 2004

You mentioned that you delayed getting a customer his title. You also said that customer gave you perfect marks on the CSI survey.

Looking back, do you have any regrets about the way you treated that customer?

Since the customer gave you perfect marks, do you feel bad about holding up his title?

bobst · January 2004

I have always thought the overall attitude of an organization starts at the top.

If the uber-boss treats his subordinates fairly, they will treat their subordinates the same way. This filters down so the lower-ranked employees also get treated fairly, and they then deal with the public the same way.

However, if the top boss abuses his subordinates, the bad attitude in the organization also filters down to the ones who deal with the public, and they aren't very nice to their customers.

For example, Isell appears to think the owners of his dealership treat him fairly. He also tries to treat his customers fairly.

It sounds like 14chow might not work at a place like that.

On a personal note, I thawed out the blocks of ice that were sitting my driveway and discovered two cars we hadn't seen for a couple days. Maybe tomorrow one of them will drive me to work.

driftracer · January 2004

the lingerie dept at Wal-Mart doesn't treat the salesfolks well.

Same here on the cars - I have a RWD import (240SX) that hasn't moved in 3 weeks.

14chow · January 2004

Well put boys and girls. I hear all of you and you all make great points. I respect all of your views and comments. And I loved the part about if the salemen makes a mini the manager makes a mini. Keep up there great work here.

Just let me say one thing before I go. If your salemen was well groomed and educated with product knowledge that took a long time to master and treated you with the upmost respect and provided the best service you ever had.......would you still grind out all of his/her commission to get the VERY best price?

Of course you would. C Ya

driftracer · January 2004

the salesman wanted to - I'd much rather see them make a 2-3 pounder than a mini - the only minis most of my folks see is ones with a side spiff on them - they don't make just $100 - they hit a $150 or $200 bonus in addition to their "mini" - so $300 a car really isn't a mini, now is it?

When someone freaks out wanting my best price, I ask the salesman if he really has a deal and how he wants to handle it. I'd rather put the grinder out on a ball than take a slim deal. Let's get another customer, call some or your past sales, something - anything but get grinded for 3 hours for a nothing deal. I'd rather not have a deal at all.

Then again, since you must have written the pay plan at my store...you probably know more about it than my comptroller, to hear you tell it.

Now that "we" are sone, we can get back to helping consumers and spending the next 6 months doing good deeds to make up for the junk you served up here.

peeete · January 2004

As a salesman in a different profession (real estate) the idea of holding up paperwork is horrific. Forget the rest of the junk he spewed..the paper shuffle is beyond the pale. What goes around comes around.

At the risk of mentioning a hated name on this board, he sounds like Killer Monsoon in Remar Sutton's book. (Im ducking now).

Ive learned a great deal from you guys and the difference between all of you and him is patently obvious.

driftracer · January 2004

and I agree.

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