Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options
Any Questions for a Car Dealer?
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
P.S. If you can goodwill me sports tickets, free dinners etc. because of the good deal you gave me I'm a sucker who overpaid for you services.
A 25 cent thank you card is great, but if you buy me hockey tickets ($100 a pair) out of the money you made on me, then you obviously lied to me about the "great deal".
Boy, you sure look at buying a car from the seller's point of view, don't you? That might be natural if you are selling cars, but it doesn't reflect how consumers look at the transaction.
As a car buyer, I don't give a rat's patootie how my salesman gets paid or how much he gets paid. That's between him and his bosses. I only care about a) getting a good price and b) dealing with a salesman and manager that don't turn me off too much with smarmy and/or dishonest behavior. I'm not there to make a new friend, and I'm not there to make sure my salesman gets a good commission. I want someone who will let me test drive the cars I want to drive, and who won't jerk me around too long with the "I have to check with my manager on that price" game. I'll let that game play for one or two rounds, but that's it.
On the other hand, my wife and I have bought 12 cars (new and used) from car dealers, and I have never been given a gift of any kind, even a hat, let alone dinner or sports tickets. How common are gifts to car buyers? Only two of those cars were bought from the same dealership, and I did use the same salesman for both purchases.
Terry
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
They need a few more people like you in the car business. Hope you don't sell Chryslers because they have enough problems without having you too!
I certainly hope that if you send any of your customers a "thank you" note, you have someone check the spelling/grammar first!
Maybe with all the money you're making, you should take a few night courses.
fastdriver
Quit a story behind the restaurants ....
Terry.
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
I told him that I did not feel comfortable signing this since there were other figures on the paper, and besides, it was not really a contract. He said that was true so I should have no problem signing it. I said that if it was true, then why did I need to sign it? He said he needed something to take back to his sales manager that showed I was serious. I told him to bring his sales manager out and I'd tell him to his face that I was serious.
The sales guy got very frustrated then wrote the words "Will not sign" on the paper and stormed off. He came back and told me that this is the way cars are sold and that I should go to another dealer.
Needless to say, that's exactly what I'm doing. I have no problem signing an official buyers order, but I see no reason to put my signature on a hastily drawn note.
Any comments from car salespeople or customers about this? Why would a salesperson be so insistant about getting a customer to sign a statement saying they will buy the car? Is there some legal obligation on the part of the customer once they sign this? And what exactly is a customer expected to sign when making a car purchase?
I showed this salesman my credit approval letter, current car title and check book, so it was obvious I was ready to buy (and I was). And I also told him verbally several times that I liked the offer. Not only that, but according to Edmunds, they were still making at least $500 over invoice on this deal. It is amazing to me that this salesperson lost a sale simply because I wouldn't sign his statement.
Many consumers don't value their time, and since they don't value their own time, they certainly don't value someone else's time (like the salesguy).
As a manager, when a salesman comes to me with an offer, I want to make sure they have a committment. Without a committment, I'm just giving out a number that you can shop down the street, and of course, we'll never see you again.
Very common practice, please don't get offended.
I'm also surprised the sales manager didn't come out to meet you, determine you were happy with the price, and usher you into the office to finalize a contract.
- well, that's very nice of you!
"I don't work for mini's. My time is too valuable. I will turn a mini over to a green pea to help him out."
- ummm... wait a minute, so who are all those people you are treating with respect and sending birthday cards to???
"since he didn't want to pay the fee we took an extra long time to file for his title because ooops...those ladies in the office misplaced the paper work. But serious, we get it one way or another. The deal is all about perception, if i'm 4 pounding you, sure I'll deduct for it."
- Well, this guy couldn't have been a mini, cause you don't work for minis. So I guess that is why you didn't treat him with respect? I think maybe i'm catching on... wait ... nope ... I thought I had a grasp on your philosophy, but then I lost it. Oh well.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
"scottdude, i need your signature to use as leverage so we can get my manager to see things OUR way. fair enough?"
It sounds like the sales manager did not think the offer was high enough, and that is why they let you walk out.
Why did they do this? Maybe it was their way of establishing control over your actions. Who cares? We buyers can't understand car sales people.
You asked what a customer is expected to sign. We have only been asked to sign the final bill of sale and the check we give them. That's all.
thats why he was told simply "no", instead of a counter-offer. as was said earlier, an unsigned offer to a sales manager reads:
"i want a price to shop so i can grind 5 dealers."
like drift said, they either are shown the door, or put on a ball.
here is what scottdude said: "My salesman and I actually agreed on a price for the car and my trade..."
i think scottdude thought he was negotiating with the salesman, and was just irked that it wasnt a negotiation at all. if the price was acceptable to him, why not sign something???
Do you require such a signature in your stores, before the salesman can take the offer to the SM?
Bowke, from my viewpoint, there's a couple of reasons this kind of thing would have had me doing the same as scottdude.
1) I only sign things I believe to be legitimate documents that represent what I want. Scott indicated there were "other figures" on the sheet. Presented with this, I have no idea WHAT I'm signing and since the salesperson claims it's not legally binding, I don't want a fight with this guy later if I decide to walk.
2) The fact I have my title in hand and stated I wanted to tell the manager I'm serious should be enough. Put a real contract in front of me with agreeable numbers, I'll sign--not some scribble scratch that may or may not mean anything.
3) Clearly the number was acceptable since scottdude told the guy it was--if he wanted to shop it or wanted to grind further, wouldn't he have done so, instead of waiting for approval from the SM?
Just my viewpoint as cautious consumer. Am I way off base in this or does what I'm saying at least make sense?
Because I don't feel like it.
The dealers in civilized Virginia seem to take my verbal offers and unsigned written offers very seriously.
Except for one. I was asked to initial an offer in 1995, and for some reason I did it. The salesman took it to the sales manager, and gave me a chance to come to my senses. When he came back, I refused to increase my offer, they would not accept it, so I left, with the salesman following me out the door pleading with me.
I would be reluctant to sign anything scribbled on a piece of paper. I would sign a simple offer to purchase form.
because the # he agreed to was an offer. it was not accepted as a selling price by the dealer...therefore, its not a # that he can shop.
are you off-base? respectfully, yes. as is bobst.
the problem here is that you guys still think a dealer can somehow screw you into buying something you dont agree to buy. you are scared crapless to agree to anything. i understand that we are bred to be scared of sales strategies and tactics, but its time to be realistic:
a car deal consists of 2 basic things:
1)agreement by BOTH parties on a written agreement.
2)physical acceptance of merchandise. (drive it away)
by signing an offer, all you are doing is giving the salesperson leverage to get it approved. if it is not approved, then your signature means nothing. therefore, the complaint about it is only making YOUR job more difficult.
bobst, ive agreed that if you can do it that way, more power to you. if you deal with the same dealer repeatedly, that helps. but honestly, if you show up in my dealership, say "i'll give you $30k for the maxima", i will say "please ok your offer here". if you dont, i will say "bye and good luck"
i know you think you are saving time this way, but how many dealers to you visit before someone says yes? how much time does that take?
stubborn1...some dealers DO. i agree that more should. but if there are scribbles that are not part of where it says "customer offers", then they are meaningless.
As far as the whole 14chow thing - I'm thinking a 16 year-old troll. The comments are too out there. I'm ignoring.
Since I won't do things your way, you throw me out - nice and simple. I like dealers that give direct answers instead of pleading with me.
Plus, I could use the good luck when golf season starts.
Besides, who wants a Maxima. The sun roof reminds me of a female body part.
if a dealer immediately says "yes" to a verbal offer, do you feel like you left money on the table?
Bobst..correct me if I am wrong. Maybe link your ultimate post.. "bobst buys a car"
regards,
kyfdx
Edmunds Price Checker
Edmunds Lease Calculator
Did you get a good deal? Be sure to come back and share!
Edmunds Moderator
my motivation for striking the deceased equine is to inform the newer people.
i personally liked landru's approach, but that's just me.
makes me wonder why there are so many rebates and dealer financing programs with business doing so well?
When we bought our Acura RSX last October, I tried the best sources I could find to determine how much over invoice to offer.
We went to the dealer, made our offer, and after a few minutes of discussion, they took it. It was a very enjoyable experience.
Like kyfdx said, we were very happy. I have never been so thrilled about a car in my life.
The most important thing is to buy a car that you like. The price is definitely secondary.
Maybe. But, how do I know this? How do I know that if I sign and the salesperson comes back and says the SM said ok, I won't have to pay an entirely different number once the the sales contract is drawn up? You might say this is unreasonable distrust of the sales process--I say this is reasonable caution--I only sign something that is binding upon both parties. If I sign the offer and the SM says ok, there is nothing binding the dealer to that number. Thus, it's unsigned. And, if the offer is rejected what good did my signature do again? I missed the part where my signature was key. Sounds like to me the offer will be rejected or accepted regardless.
"stubborn1...some dealers DO. i agree that more should. but if there are scribbles that are not part of where it says "customer offers", then they are meaningless."
Again, the signee has no way of knowing that. Remmember scottdude's post said there were "other figures" on there. How I am supposed to know what those other figures mean? Do I know that will not supercede whatever number you say I'm agreeing to? No. Again, it's simple. Here's my offer. I will offer if I'm serious. Believe me or not, I don't care--I'll spend the 30k wherever it will be taken--but I will not sign something that is not binding. I think we have oppositional thinking going on here--by both us. To me, you are asking that I sign something to show I'm serious, but you say it's not a contract, not enforceable, so don't worry. I say if it's not binding, then what is the purpose of the signature? Why is it needed if it's not binding? You say, if it's not binding, what do you care, I'm trying to leverage my own SM. It's a psychological thing to get the customer to prove he's serious and committed. If I wanted psychology I'd go into therapy. But, I could play the game, sign the form, and still walk out. Or, you could demand my signature, I would refuse and the deal would be undone--without you finding out I was willing to pay whatever scottdude's salesguy wrote down.
Please don't pretend you're my friend trying to leverage your own boss--as if it's a "you and I vs the bad SM" thing. It's not--it's me against the dealership. It's silly, for crying out loud! bowke: "Hey, SM, this guy is offering 32K for the 04 Dodge Ram QC Laramie before rebates" SM: "Ha hahhaha". Bowke: "But he signed my scribbled offer on this Subway wrapper". SM:"oh,well, he must be serious. Write it up."
This does not happen. The offer is rejected, so what good did my signature do? Nothing.
Lastly, what does me being serious have to with the offer? Scottdude said he and the salesguy agree on a price. If he wasn't serious, why didn't he keep grinding? Scottdude must have been happy enough to conclude negotiations. I'd say take that to the SM and see if he'll take it. If he does, so will I. I could sign it, have it notarized and guaranteed, bring 2 non-familial witnesses, whatever you want--but if the SM rejects the number, nothing else matters. I think you underestimate the importance people place on their signature. And to me, it has nothing to do with it being a car sale. I could buy a houseful of furniture and not sign a damn thing unless it's a contract. It's not specific to the dealer--it's my signature on the line--that's all.
NOTE: Edited to correct misunderstanding of scottdude's post re: the offer. I thought salesguy just made an offer and I know now that they agreed on a price. Sorry about that.
Then, I'll fire the salesman, but that's just me.
These discussions will cure any need you may have for psychological counseling, and they are free and a lot more fun than going into therapy.
Sounds like this cold weather has us all in ornery moods.
If I have to finish the deal, we didn't make a nice profit, more than likely...
There is another aspect to this. In my area at least, I have never encountered a dealer who has tried this sales method. I would think that if this is fairly unusual in a given area most customers would be understandably shocked and suspicious if it was pulled on them. The response might be " no other dealer has asked us to do this, why should we do it with you?" I think anytime a particular sales techniques stands out from the norm people are apt to become suspicious, regardless if the technique being employed is harmless or not. (I still remember with amusement when Crabtree Ford in Westchester in the 1970's required a $50 deposit to get a test drive, and then refused to return the money without the customer being worked..the screaming was very funny
While I might sign such a document if it was a printed form with full disclosures printed on it, there is NO way I would ever sign a scribbled piece of paper. It has nothing to do with my being serious. Any dealer who expects customers to sign scribbled pieces of paper rather than a printed fully-disclosed document is not being professional. Now I guess some dealers here use this method with success. Thats fine with me.
And in my business I would never fire a salesman who had a quality deal just because I had to get involved to facilitate the process. That is the purpose of a manager. They are facilitators.
And how can I get started on the job?
Lighten up - I, for one, want to know if you're serious or you just intend to shop my number all over town. As a retailer who has entertained you with our service, I think I have a right to ask that question!
Just like taking up a seat in a restaurant, if you sat at a table without ordering, depending on the firmness of the staff, after a bit, someone would ask you if you're just taking up space or do you plan on ordering a meal!?!
That whole "I'm not signing it because there might be an $80,000 contract under the paper, or worse, military reenlistment papers" excuse is a load of bull.
Go rent a spine, commit or don't, make up your mind, and oh, by the way, let me know if your serious or if you're just wasting my employee's time - if you are, you can leave now - I promised I'd help them earn a living for their families!!
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040129/ap_on_fe- _st/sweden_chef_fired_1
I hope no one in the car business ever thinks..."that darned salesman Roy is a royal pain! He sells so many cars and has so many happy customers sending referrals, I've had to get extra allocation of units and had to hire 3 more detail guys! I'll have to let him go."
When I asked, "How much?", she responded in less than 5 minutes with a number. It looked good to me, and I did NOT shop it. Why? Because we had spent the time developing a relationship, earning each others trust. I actually decided against the car, but 10 days later, again decided I wanted to buy. I looked at a different unit, again asked, "How much?", got an answer in minutes, and said on that Saturday eve, "I'll take it. I'll be in on Monday to do the paperwork and pick up the car". Nothing signed, no drivers license copied, no credit card, no initials, no drama, no pain, everyone gained.
I called Monday morning to arrange a pickup time and I gave her my SSN to get the paperwork started. Delivery was painless. It took 10-15 minutes and I signed a handfull of forms.
Why spend, what $20k, 30k, 40k or more, with someone you don't know or trust? Kinda like, if you need a pre-nup, then maybe this isn't the one.
Hey, I may be missing something here too.
Jack
FWIW, I would not sign the paper, either. It's a rediculous psychological ploy by the dealership that I wouldn't play along with. I've never been asked to sign such a statement, and I would refuse if I ever am asked. I would likely reply, "just go see your sales manager and find out if he will agree to my price." If I was ticked off, I might change that to, "cut the crap, and run along to your boss and see if we have a deal or not."
In those cases, I've just said..." No problem, but you are serious...right?"
And I've never had a problem. Drift, if you would fire me for this I know I wouldn't want to work in your kind of store.
Timadams...if you told me to "run along to my boss" I think I would find you another salesperson.
Whenever I've bought real estate, my offers were written on a Genuine_Draft_Contract, provided by a realtor on one side of the deal. Since cars are people's second biggest purchase in their life, why should the back of the envelope stuff be OK?
If a handshake won't do it, and the dealer feels the need to have "buy-in" from the customer, then fill out by hand a purchase order with the pertinent info, obtain the buyer's intials/signature on that, and if the Sales Manager turns down price, then just void it out, or make changes with subsequent intialling. Doing it this way provides protection and should give everybody on both sides of the deal enough warm fuzzies. No reason not to handle it this way if all is on the up and up.
I did have this stunt pulled on me once, fortunately on a vehicle I had decided I wasn't going to buy anyway after the test drive. But I still got the grind anyway...."how 'bout you put what you'll buy the truck for, with your initials, so I can take this to my manager." Huh pal, what part of the phrase, No, I'm not interested in buying it, don't you understand? I guess I've been spoiled over the years mostly buying at mom & pop stores, where the salesman are pros and have the latitude to do their own deals.
Most sales people don't mind this as best I can tell. They give me a brochure and their card followed by "look me up when you're ready to buy".
Once I do decide I'm buying my next car model, I walk into the dealership. Do the requisite test drive and sales presentation. Then make my offer. I'll sign anything if the offer is what I've determined to be a good one. If they counter and we're too far apart on price, I thank them for their time and it's off to the next dealer. If they accept my offer, then we have a deal and I'll sign their offer sheet. IF we're within a few hundred of my offer, I ask if they can do better. If they can, I know we will probably have a deal. If they can't, again, I thank them for their time and I move on....no hard feelings.
Where it gets "sticky" is when my offer and their offer is far apart and a sales person "hints" they can do better. Of course, this always "piques" my interest, but I still usually walk away knowing that it could be a grinding session to find out how much better they can do. I don't want to go through all of that. So I may give it one more shot with "how much better?". Unless it's a big difference, negotiations stop there.
Free oil changes or floor mats aren't going to sway me one way or the other to make a deal.
So, where's the "beef" if you have to sign an offer sheet? If you don't have a deal, then you simply walk away.
Of course, this is all predicated on knowing the market for the car in your particular area (easy to find out by looking at the dealer's inventory and looking in the newspaper to see what's being advertsied and at what cost). Using Edmund's and/or carsdirect info is also handy.
Exactly what I was thinking. This initial or sign the offer business is to get me to commit (psychological, legally, or not) without any proof to me that dealership will commit. Think about this: if the salesguy wants to me to sign to "commit" and then it's turned down, why did I need to commit to it in the first place?
_______________________________________________________-
"Go rent a spine, commit or don't, make up your mind, and oh, by the way, let me know if your serious or if you're just wasting my employee's time - if you are, you can leave now"
Fair enough, drift. If I'm pressured to sign an scribbled offer, then *that* is a good sign to leave anyway--despite the fact I was serious. Maybe I would be off on my offer--I made a mistake in figuring, but I am still serious about driving a vehicle away. I'll prove it by signing a contract that obligates us BOTH to that number. That's all I'm saying. I'm not saying it's illegal or even sleazy. I just won't do it because I take my signature seriously--even if the dealership does not.
By the way, it sounds like you and I have the same goal when it comes to car buying - we try to find a way to make it enjoyable.
You explain your way, and I explain mine. As long as we both enjoy the car buying experience, we are both equally right.
If any other people can read our posts and use our ideas to make thier car buying experience more fun, then we have contributed a little to the betterment of mankind. So please keep posting your ideas.
I think that it's silly to negotiate with a sales person unless they're authorized to do their own deals, like at a small used-car outfit. But that doesn't mean I have to be impolite or talk down to them; that's just the way it's done.
And I know that it's in MY best interest to show them I'm serious; hence the initial or signature, and a few hundred bucks in an envelope with the promise to leave it on deposit if my offer is accepted.
But I wouldn't sign any semi-blank sheet of paper. That looks too much like tiddlywinks to me.
-Mathias