If I get the keys, matching belt and shoes I am also going to hold out for the secret handshake!!!! :-)
lhs-I've gone back through the posts concerning you. You started out asking a simple question about the written offers which were answered by the car pros ( as well as some regular posters such as myself). They then went a step further to try and help you out with the best way ( as they see it with their experience) to get a very good deal on the car.
You came back at them VERY defensively because you felt they were ganging up on you. They (we) weren't. They have no stake in this deal and were trying to help. Because you didn't like their answers it seems you may be missing the forest because of the trees.
Shop the way you see fit. Spend as much or as little time on it as you like. That is strictly up to you and your comfort level. You shouldn't however feel defensive when they give you advice on these boards that is not what you want to hear.
I'm a relative newcomer here (been hanging around for a little over a year) but I can tell you that several of the posters who are giving you advice I would buy from in a second because of their ethics. So relax and take in all the advice tailor it to what makes you comfortable and proceed how you want but don't be upset with the pros if they come to a different conclusion based on their life experiences.
one thing that can put everyone on the same sheet of music is if you share what vehicle you are looking at, and what price you were offered from your dealer. without this knowledge, we are only assuming things. help us understand, please.
Sir, I came here to gain a little insight, and I'm sorry if I became too defensive. I see no further point in carrying on the discussion (and don't construe that as chickening out). I don't have the time to post a response and then do the follow-ups. I've already spent a bit more time here than I thought I would. We all know how valuable our time is. Thank you for yours, seriously.
"I don't have the time to post a response and then do the follow-ups."
in that case, how on god's green earth can you spend all that time trying to save a hundred bucks???
just like most buyers, you seem afraid to give the proper information, in fear that you are wrong.
by not letting us in on what you are buying, and what price the offer was, then all i can assume is that it was a high volume vehicle at or below invoice.
in that case, you ARE chasing $50.
if this is not the case, all i am asking is to set us straight.
take a deep breath and relax. Let's remember why jhs came to these discussions in the first place. He asked a question about written offers. He got his answer from several folks ( including both of us). He didn't like the answer and has felt defensive ever since. He feels that further discussion would not benefit him so he has gone on. No need to pile on.:-)
ok. got it. that just ROYALLY irked me. i tried to understand his POV, but an unwillingness to specify the vehicle and price tells me EXACTLY that he is someone chasing $50. and after all the defensiveness, he cant save face except by running away.
Ok, I'll bite. You sucked me in. I guess Bowke doesn't appreciate or understand alternative points of view. Sorry to disappoint Bowke, but I estimate I have a grand total of maybe 6 hours in this process. Am I obsessing on the deal?
Vehicle: Ford truck MSRP: 38900 First offer: 32764 Second offer: 31000 (this from the orig dealer) Third offer: 30700 Fourth offer: 30300 That's where things will probably land, with the last offer, from the 4th dealer. I'm sure I could chase on the other side of town for another 100, but not gonna do it. So as you can see, I've chased a lot of $50 around.
everyone assumes jhs is trying to save $50-$100. in one of his posts he said he thought he received a fair offer. in another post he said there's quite a bit still on the table. from this i get that there's more than $100 to negotiate. what you sales pros fail to realize is your motivations are not the same as the buyer. you want a fast turnover so you can get on to the next customer and make another deal. the customer looks at it as a big investment and has a natural tendency to take his time before he pulls the trigger. not many people are willing to spend 20k-40k without considerable thought... even then they can end up with buyer's remorse. you guys do this on a daily basis and it seems like an easy process... the average customer does it once every 3-5 years.
"So when someone questions what's in it for the dealers to meet my price, all I can say is that right here in my area, they're finding a reason amongst themselves to do what they need to do to get my business."
Yes, but why do they need to do those things to get your business? Because of your (and that of thousands of others') behavior. You get a price and shop it to death, just in case, maybe, God forbid, you don't get the absolute lowest price possible. So no dealer gives you the lowest price right away and they have to play games amongst each other to accommodate you. I'm not an insider, jhs--just an ordinary guy--never sold cars, never worked for a car manufacturer, etc. I do know, however, that I don't understand how you can buy your last car from a dealer you seemed to have an agreeable transaction with, you go to them for your next vehicle and get what you admit was a "very good price" from them and then proceed to shop it all over. Now, even if you indeed have only 6 hours invested in this (including your time here), you have actually saved (potentially) $700 thus far.
Now, the first dealer, hoefully recognizing you purchased a vehicle there previously, will likely stay true to the $31000 offered. The dealer offering the $30300 may or may not stick to that price when you go in to sign. Why do I question this? Because they know you are still shopping price and trying to have the lowest price, but when you come to buy, they hope you'll cave and accept a higher price.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is your "original" dealer has a good incentive to keep your business and knows the price it can honestly honor. That's the 31k. The other dealers are just trying to beat it by tossing out a number.
My point is if all you're trying to do is save as much money as possible, you may do so and only spend 6 hours. But, you might find in the long run it'll cost you more time and effort because the dealer you DO buy from has no incentive to offer the best price the NEXT time you buy a vehicle.
no, you didnt go after $50, but in the grand scheme of 30 large,....well...nevermind.
sounds like you drained every bit of it. i just have one final question:
why havent you done the deal?
you are already under invoice, or close to it as near as i can estimate. do you think it gets that much better?
i would grab the truck while its still there. beleive me, the brain damage isnt worth it if you go in to do the deal and you cant have the truck on your terms.
you have the 3 ingredients of a deal:
1) vehicle 2) price 3) dealer
oh, sorry...the last one doesnt concern you. disregard it please.
you have the 2 ingredients to a deal
i would at least give the original dealer a shot to match it. that would be considerate of you.
4 offers is shopping it to death? I have no intention of going on and on and on.
Believe me, I'm in no jeopardy of not finding a deal here. And sorry, I don't understand why I need to be so cozy with the original dealer. He may have treated me right relative to a couple of other dealers, but he also came away with a very good profit I am sure.
Just a word of caution. Make sure all the offers ( or to be sure the one you take) is an OTD ( out the door) price. Confusion can come in on these types of deals when you go to the 4th dealership and they say well that doesn't include this,that & the other. I'm also assuming there is no trade involved because that would muddy the waters further. Just trying to help you out with any potential pitfalls.
"He may have treated me right relative to a couple of other dealers, but he also came away with a very good profit I am sure."
And the problem with that, is what, exactly? Don't you think a dealer that sold you a vehicle previously and knows that he and you both received a fair deal on, wouldn't want to treat you fairly again?
And yes, I DO believe getting 4 offers is shopping it to death. Here's the point: Is the original dealer's revised offer of 31000 fair? Is it a price you are willing to pay? Do you believe continuing your relationship with that dealer by becoming a repeat customer will only be good for you in the long run? (If you say no or don't care for the last question, then you are only setting yourself up for problems in the future).
And BTW, I would second Duncan on being very, very careful about what you are comparing here. 31K OTD at original dealer may not be 30300 OTD at the low bidder dealer. LBD may not (or he may have, we don't know) have included a doc and/or services fee (which could be $300, $400 or $500), that dealer might have forgotten that particular truck had $500 in dealer installed accessories (sorry, thought we were talking about a different truck), or any number of things? Why would he do this? Because you're demanding the lowest price possible and to get you to come back, he tosses a number out there no one can beat. When you do come back and he adds the doc fee on or includes the accessories, more times than not, a customer will pay it to have the deal done and end up overpaying--or will you be different? If the LBD dealer does something like this, will you get up, go to your local Kentucky Fried Crow, pick up an order and go back to the original dealer?
My only advice (advice I give to you to sincerely help you out) is to make sure the offers are all the same thing. All OTD, period. If you aren't sure, then they aren't.
My apologies if this has already been canvassed, I didn't have the opportunity.....well ok, I was too bone idle lazy to go through all the posts.
In any event, what is the dealer perspective on the old email request for offers, i.e. blitz a number of dealers with an email explaining the vehicle (with trim and options etc.) that I want and what kind of price can they offer? Is this treated seriously, will I just get a great price via email but lo and behold the price changes when I get there?
I can appreciate that they can't tell how serious I am via the email so it may not get treated seriously, but is it worth the time?
Thanks in advance. Don't worry about slamming me, I'm a lawyer I'm used to it.
the only catch 22 in this is that every dealer doesnt have the exact vehicle you want. if they dont have it, then they can sell it for any $$$ they want, regardless of invoice, etc...
heck, i can sell that ferrarri enzo that i have (wink-wink) out back for $500!
this process opens you up to a severe and classic low-ball.
I'm not a dealer, but I think the answer ends up being "it depends". Maybe the brand you're looking at has a dozen stores in your area with good internet salespeople, so you get 8 firm quotes and are able to sit back and pick the one you like. Or maybe either there are not a lot of stores in your area and/or they don't have good internet skills, and/or they don't think you're serious so you get nothing.
My $0.02 is to give a great, detailed description of the vehicle you're looking for, including any and all option packages and a list of acceptable colors. Also give a time frame for the sale - and make it a week or less. And although you'd probably prefer to interact by email, provide your phone number to show you're serious - people out on a fishing expedition wouldn't do that. Bottom line, I guess it doesn't hurt to try.
My preference is to look at the invoice price, TMV, ask a few question here in the forums, and then make an OTD (includes everthing) offer at my nearest dealer. But the dealers in my area tend not to send out email quotes, so...
Bowke, I thought the handle appropriate as well...(I won't comment on the irony of a car dealer telling me that...:))Tell you what, I'll buy that Ferrari with the gold bullion I have in my filing cabinet...Seriously, I think you're right about the low ball and that was something I was concerned about.
Mirth, good points, the problem is that up here we have trouble getting the invoice price, you have to purchase online from a couple different sources, also I don't think TMV applies to Canada.
I guess I was hoping to find a way to get a decent price without schlepping around to each dealership, there's that laziness thing again.
The other kicker is that one of the vehicles I was looking at was the Sienna (the other being the Quest) and up here we have "Access Pricing" which I hear rumours the dealers will not stray from claiming sanctions from Toyota if they do. Toyota of course denies, (anti competitive us?) and even says on the website that "dealers may sell for less".
1) do you know the exact vehicle you want? 2) is the price within your comfort level?
if #1 is yes, go to #2. if #1 is no, then dont even worry about price yet. if both are yes, then go get it...dont get into the CPA/Atty. pitfall of paralysis by analysis. it will only create undo stress in your life.
Bowke, I thought the handle appropriate as well...(I won't comment on the irony of a car dealer telling me that...:))Tell you what, I'll buy that Ferrari with the gold bullion I have in my filing cabinet...Seriously, I think you're right about the low ball and that was something I was concerned about.
Mirth, good points, the problem is that up here we have trouble getting the invoice price, you have to purchase online from a couple different sources, also I don't think TMV applies to Canada.
I guess I was hoping to find a way to get a decent price without schlepping around to each dealership, there's that laziness thing again.
The other kicker is that one of the vehicles I was looking at was the Sienna (the other being the Quest) and up here we have "Access Pricing" which I hear rumours the dealers will not stray from claiming sanctions from Toyota if they do. Toyota of course denies, (anti competitive us?) and even says on the website that "dealers may sell for less".
Sorry, I guess you last post made it in before my last post, guess I took too long to write it, maybe more of that paralysis by analysis...
As you can see above, I do know the two vehicles I want and the trim level. All I have in terms of pricing right now are the MSRP's and the Access Price for Toyota. I don't have the invoice price yet, I have to buy that online. I thought what I would do, once I have invoice price in hand is send out an OTD offer, as Mirth suggested, and see what responses I get back.
Frankly, if I can save a grand or two great, if it's a couple hundred bucks then heck I can make that up overcharging a client and my time is more valuable spent that way.
Sorry, I guess you last post made it in before my last post, guess I took too long to write it, maybe more of that paralysis by analysis...
As you can see above, I do know the two vehicles I want and the trim level. All I have in terms of pricing right now are the MSRP's and the Access Price for Toyota. I don't have the invoice price yet, I have to buy that online. I thought what I would do, once I have invoice price in hand is send out an OTD offer, as Mirth suggested, and see what responses I get back.
Frankly, if I can save a grand or two great, if it's a couple hundred bucks then heck I can make that up overcharging a client and my time is more valuable spent that way.
dont use your "refresh" button inside the board...it makes your last post repeat. instead, click the "message center" button, and it will show you where the new posts are.
I've seen it discussed here from time to time, and it just came up again. If a buyer is shopping a price around, and gets what they think is a great low quote, but when it comes time to do the deal, finds out that it's not really a great quote because the options are different, or doc fees weren't included, whatever. Why don't people just leave? They have a standing offer for what they want at another store. Are they just beat down? Do they think the other store is going to give them the runaround, too? Do they think if they go back to the other store they will lose face? It seems crazy to me.
But then, I am one of those engineers. Which actually is a great opening salvo for negotiations. Some salesmen even wince.
Not to change the subject.....but who stole my good car karma that I had going??
First the body shop screwed up our Dodge, then the Chevy figured it would chime in and the t-case went out, then my Explorer couldn't be left out and had to turn on a throttle something er other light today after not wanting to start.
So, if you have it......along with our cold weather......please return both ASAP.
I have a 1998 Camry LE - all power opts (except seats) with spoiler and CD. It has 78K miles and is in good shape (some minor scratches).
The KBB value on this car is somewhere between 4,200 and 5,500...I'd say mine fits in at 5-5.2K
I was looking to trade up in years and down in miles...
I have looked at two vehicles at two different dealers...
Car 1) A 2002 Protege ES (alloy wheels, spoiler, cd, moonroof and power options except seats)with 50K miles, that had a window sticker of 10,999 - but was advertised on the internet at 9,999. The dealer has gone down to about 8,900 and offered 5,200 for my car. So my cost is 3,700 plus tax/tags.
Car 2) A 2000 Nissan Altima SE (alloy wheels, spoler, cd, moonroof and all power opts except seats) with 63K miles, the sticker for this car is 9,999 but the dealer has come down to about 9000 and offered the same 5,200 for my Camry.
Are either of these good deals? Both cars are pretty clean...minor paint scratches/nicks on the hood and front bumper from miles.
What should a person expect to pay ABOVE what a used car is worth? The Protege is worth about 7,200 on trade in (according to KBB) and the Altima 6,850.
Obviously, I have done something good, in getting the dealers to come down from the sticker price, and they could come down more if they really want/need to move the cars. I guess I could really pit them against eachother...I'm just not sure the right way to go about it...we are pretty much up in the air with the vehicles, so lowest price will probably win...
I am leaning toward the Protege, my wife toward the Altima, but it's probably only because the Altima is black and the Protege is dark green...this is our second car...we have a 2002 Axiom that we got a great deal on and it has been very nice to us so far...
Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated...thanks!
And you're looking at cars with 50,000 and 63,000 miles.
Why do this?
You have a car with an excellent reputation which should give you 50,000 more miles of service, with only some regular maintenance. And even if you have to do more, such as alternator, starter, big brake job - these will each only cost what would be one month's (or less) payment on the car you are wanting to trade <up> to?
The Camry was bought in Sept of 2002 at an auto liquidation lot for 7,500 plus tax/tag...I paid for it outright. It had 62K miles on it when I got it. It came with some cheap tires and a noisy (rattles over rough roads) front suspension. It's in need of service (plugs/tune-up, tranny fluid change, anti-freeze flush/fill), tires, and if I choose, some paint work (relatively minor) that would get the car into top condition for it's age. I am guessing it would cost between 1.5-2K to do all of this (depending on if I get the paint work done and how much I have done).
Both cars I am looking at have very good (Atlima) to excellent (Protege) reliability ratings and both are newer and have less miles. I would rate the exterior of my Camry (paint condition) as a 7 out of 10 and the Protege an 8.5, the Altima a 9.5. The Protege and Altima also have nicer interiors and moon/sunroofs.
I would most likely be paying cash for the difference...no car payment if I can avoid it.
I like the Camry, and it has been reliable (just had new brakes put on it) and gets about 25-26 MPG in driving 25% city, 75% highway. I expect the Alitma to be slightly worse with MPG and the Protege to be slightly better.
I guess I just figured if the reliablity was considered EQUAL on all 3...then it would make sense to spend 3-4K on a newer car with less miles and slightly more options - than it would to repair/upgrade mine for 1.5-2K.
I am also from the Pittsburgh area and looking to buy a used car. Except my car is a '94 Toyota Paseo w/ 221k+ miles on it.
Just a few comments, I notice the Protege is a 2002 w/ 50K miles? I think that is extremely high mileage for a car that's only two years old. The Nissan Altima is also slightly on the high side of mileage IMHO.
I'm looking at '99 vehicles: Escort LX, Protege LX, and Prism LSI and shooting for $5-6K out the door price. All vehicle should be around 60k miles.
One thing you might want to consider is that insurance is higher for Nissans vs either Mazda's or Toyota's.
Thanks for the input...I checked into the insurance yesterday and it will be about $378 for 6 months with the Protege, 367 for the Altima and it's currently $325 for the Camry...so about $10 more per month...
Yeah, the mileage is a concern...but it's all relative to price, which is one of the reasons I posted this message...I think A GOOD DEAL would be about $1K less than where I am right now...so $2.7K plus tax an tag...but I'm not sure I have figured out the dealers low price yet...
look strongly at the Prism LSi - it's a great car, and a direct relative (almost a copy) of the Toyota Corolla - pretty much the same car. Price being in the same range, that's the car I'd choose, especially over the Escort.
But, you are right.. for about a thousand less.. I'd keep looking.. You should be able to find a Protege with 30K-35K miles for that kind of money.. Then you would have a year of warranty left on it.
I would keep your current car in service and spend the money to do the PM. You are probably going to spend at least half of that getting a car back into condition. I have yet to see a used car that needed *no service* or PM work in the first six months.
the Camry while not perfect, is the devil you know--whereas the others are the devils you don't know. And Camry's have a brilliant reputation for being trouble free over time. I think the value of low mileage if often overrated if maintenance has been done. You should be able to get another 100,000 nearly trouble free miles from the Camry if you choose to good luck
I think the pro's know that if you can get a prospect to take" psychological ownership" then they will stomach bad news because they want so badly to get the deal done. In a rational world, this would not happen--but a car for most ( engineers excepted) is not a rationale decision
Hello again. After the spirited discussion last week I thought I would update you with what happened. I bought a new 250xlt, pretty well loaded, for 30K. It is exactly the truck that I've been looking for, right down to reverse back up sensor. I bought it from my original dealer. You all laid a pretty heavy guilt trip on my to let him get my business so I went the extra mile to work with him. I'm glad I did. They were happy and I was happy. They even gave me $500 more for my trade in than one other dealership, but I'm confident they'll make a tidy profit on my trade in because it's a major cream puff. I should sell it myself, but I just don't want to go through that (again). One last question for you guys --- what is the sales tax based on for a new car purchase in VA? Does anyone know? I was going over the prelim paperwork last night and I couldn't figure it out. Is it based on the sale price of the vehicle, the price of the vehicle including delivery as well as the doc fee ... what? I can't get it to come out. I'll ask the dealer later, but I'm curious now... Thanks.
In Fairfax county where we live, I think the tax is 3.125% (3% for the state and .125% for the county).
I think we are taxed on the price of the car, which includes transportation.
I don't think we are taxed on the DOC fee.
The reason I don't know more is because we make OTD offers and I have never really paind attention to how the details work out on paper. We assume a tax of 3.1% when we are computing our OTD price.
Wow, isn't our lovely state beautiful this time of year?
I called DMV and they told me it was a straight 3% of MSRP -- that just doesn't sound right to me. If you go on KJToyota's website they have a little program to figure the OTD and financing costs, but I swear, every time I entered a different car price, the tax was not a uniform %. I suppose if VA could ever figure out the tax situation, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in -- but that's another topic for another day, right bobst?
Maybe the 3% is the DMV fee and the .125% is a county tax.
Anyway, my advice is to figure your own OTD price. Something like invoice + your options + dealer markup + transportation. Then add 3.1% tax + $50 for tag/title.
If they accept, then buy the car. If not, go out to Manassas battlefield for a lovely spring walk and feel sorry for the car salesmen who have to live in the Seattle area.
i did a deal with someone in alexandria, and we looked it up. on a new car, it is a flat 3% of MSRP. (this way, everyone pays the same for the same car) on used cars, you pay sales tax on the final price (before trade).
Comments
lhs-I've gone back through the posts concerning you. You started out asking a simple question about the written offers which were answered by the car pros ( as well as some regular posters such as myself). They then went a step further to try and help you out with the best way ( as they see it with their experience) to get a very good deal on the car.
You came back at them VERY defensively because you felt they were ganging up on you. They (we) weren't. They have no stake in this deal and were trying to help. Because you didn't like their answers it seems you may be missing the forest because of the trees.
Shop the way you see fit. Spend as much or as little time on it as you like. That is strictly up to you and your comfort level. You shouldn't however feel defensive when they give you advice on these boards that is not what you want to hear.
I'm a relative newcomer here (been hanging around for a little over a year) but I can tell you that several of the posters who are giving you advice I would buy from in a second because of their ethics. So relax and take in all the advice tailor it to what makes you comfortable and proceed how you want but don't be upset with the pros if they come to a different conclusion based on their life experiences.
Whew and I'm spent.:-)
Duncan
in that case, how on god's green earth can you spend all that time trying to save a hundred bucks???
just like most buyers, you seem afraid to give the proper information, in fear that you are wrong.
by not letting us in on what you are buying, and what price the offer was, then all i can assume is that it was a high volume vehicle at or below invoice.
in that case, you ARE chasing $50.
if this is not the case, all i am asking is to set us straight.
dude...are you TRYING to get skewered? ;-)
No need to pile on.:-)
Duncan
Vehicle: Ford truck
MSRP: 38900
First offer: 32764
Second offer: 31000 (this from the orig dealer)
Third offer: 30700
Fourth offer: 30300
That's where things will probably land, with the last offer, from the 4th dealer. I'm sure I could chase on the other side of town for another 100, but not gonna do it.
So as you can see, I've chased a lot of $50 around.
what you sales pros fail to realize is your motivations are not the same as the buyer. you want a fast turnover so you can get on to the next customer and make another deal. the customer looks at it as a big investment and has a natural tendency to take his time before he pulls the trigger.
not many people are willing to spend 20k-40k without considerable thought... even then they can end up with buyer's remorse.
you guys do this on a daily basis and it seems like an easy process... the average customer does it once every 3-5 years.
Yes, but why do they need to do those things to get your business? Because of your (and that of thousands of others') behavior. You get a price and shop it to death, just in case, maybe, God forbid, you don't get the absolute lowest price possible. So no dealer gives you the lowest price right away and they have to play games amongst each other to accommodate you. I'm not an insider, jhs--just an ordinary guy--never sold cars, never worked for a car manufacturer, etc. I do know, however, that I don't understand how you can buy your last car from a dealer you seemed to have an agreeable transaction with, you go to them for your next vehicle and get what you admit was a "very good price" from them and then proceed to shop it all over. Now, even if you indeed have only 6 hours invested in this (including your time here), you have actually saved (potentially) $700 thus far.
Now, the first dealer, hoefully recognizing you purchased a vehicle there previously, will likely stay true to the $31000 offered. The dealer offering the $30300 may or may not stick to that price when you go in to sign. Why do I question this? Because they know you are still shopping price and trying to have the lowest price, but when you come to buy, they hope you'll cave and accept a higher price.
Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is your "original" dealer has a good incentive to keep your business and knows the price it can honestly honor. That's the 31k. The other dealers are just trying to beat it by tossing out a number.
My point is if all you're trying to do is save as much money as possible, you may do so and only spend 6 hours. But, you might find in the long run it'll cost you more time and effort because the dealer you DO buy from has no incentive to offer the best price the NEXT time you buy a vehicle.
i am assuming that this is a crew cab f250 xlt with a v10 engine. based on incentives and markup, this would put it in the right range.
msrp: ~$39000
invoice: ~$34000
rebate w/v10: $2500
-----------------------
total: ~$30500
no, you didnt go after $50, but in the grand scheme of 30 large,....well...nevermind.
sounds like you drained every bit of it. i just have one final question:
why havent you done the deal?
you are already under invoice, or close to it as near as i can estimate. do you think it gets that much better?
i would grab the truck while its still there. beleive me, the brain damage isnt worth it if you go in to do the deal and you cant have the truck on your terms.
you have the 3 ingredients of a deal:
1) vehicle
2) price
3) dealer
oh, sorry...the last one doesnt concern you. disregard it please.
you have the 2 ingredients to a deal
i would at least give the original dealer a shot to match it. that would be considerate of you.
Believe me, I'm in no jeopardy of not finding a deal here. And sorry, I don't understand why I need to be so cozy with the original dealer. He may have treated me right relative to a couple of other dealers, but he also came away with a very good profit I am sure.
yeah, right.
BTW...was i right about the truck?
yeah, right.
You mean you guys don't make anything on new vehicles?
Duncan
we make more on fords than the average dealer in another city, since there are 2 ford plants here and most are a-plan deals (about 93%).
but for the average retail deal, there is usually only a couple hundred dollars of clear profit per deal. maybe less.
And the problem with that, is what, exactly? Don't you think a dealer that sold you a vehicle previously and knows that he and you both received a fair deal on, wouldn't want to treat you fairly again?
And yes, I DO believe getting 4 offers is shopping it to death. Here's the point: Is the original dealer's revised offer of 31000 fair? Is it a price you are willing to pay? Do you believe continuing your relationship with that dealer by becoming a repeat customer will only be good for you in the long run? (If you say no or don't care for the last question, then you are only setting yourself up for problems in the future).
And BTW, I would second Duncan on being very, very careful about what you are comparing here. 31K OTD at original dealer may not be 30300 OTD at the low bidder dealer. LBD may not (or he may have, we don't know) have included a doc and/or services fee (which could be $300, $400 or $500), that dealer might have forgotten that particular truck had $500 in dealer installed accessories (sorry, thought we were talking about a different truck), or any number of things? Why would he do this? Because you're demanding the lowest price possible and to get you to come back, he tosses a number out there no one can beat. When you do come back and he adds the doc fee on or includes the accessories, more times than not, a customer will pay it to have the deal done and end up overpaying--or will you be different? If the LBD dealer does something like this, will you get up, go to your local Kentucky Fried Crow, pick up an order and go back to the original dealer?
My only advice (advice I give to you to sincerely help you out) is to make sure the offers are all the same thing. All OTD, period. If you aren't sure, then they aren't.
In any event, what is the dealer perspective on the old email request for offers, i.e. blitz a number of dealers with an email explaining the vehicle (with trim and options etc.) that I want and what kind of price can they offer? Is this treated seriously, will I just get a great price via email but lo and behold the price changes when I get there?
I can appreciate that they can't tell how serious I am via the email so it may not get treated seriously, but is it worth the time?
Thanks in advance. Don't worry about slamming me, I'm a lawyer I'm used to it.
heck, i can sell that ferrarri enzo that i have (wink-wink) out back for $500!
this process opens you up to a severe and classic low-ball.
My $0.02 is to give a great, detailed description of the vehicle you're looking for, including any and all option packages and a list of acceptable colors. Also give a time frame for the sale - and make it a week or less. And although you'd probably prefer to interact by email, provide your phone number to show you're serious - people out on a fishing expedition wouldn't do that. Bottom line, I guess it doesn't hurt to try.
My preference is to look at the invoice price, TMV, ask a few question here in the forums, and then make an OTD (includes everthing) offer at my nearest dealer. But the dealers in my area tend not to send out email quotes, so...
Bowke, I thought the handle appropriate as well...(I won't comment on the irony of a car dealer telling me that...:))Tell you what, I'll buy that Ferrari with the gold bullion I have in my filing cabinet...Seriously, I think you're right about the low ball and that was something I was concerned about.
Mirth, good points, the problem is that up here we have trouble getting the invoice price, you have to purchase online from a couple different sources, also I don't think TMV applies to Canada.
I guess I was hoping to find a way to get a decent price without schlepping around to each dealership, there's that laziness thing again.
The other kicker is that one of the vehicles I was looking at was the Sienna (the other being the Quest) and up here we have "Access Pricing" which I hear rumours the dealers will not stray from claiming sanctions from Toyota if they do. Toyota of course denies, (anti competitive us?) and even says on the website that "dealers may sell for less".
And they say the law is confusing....
1) do you know the exact vehicle you want?
2) is the price within your comfort level?
if #1 is yes, go to #2.
if #1 is no, then dont even worry about price yet.
if both are yes, then go get it...dont get into the CPA/Atty. pitfall of paralysis by analysis. it will only create undo stress in your life.
Bowke, I thought the handle appropriate as well...(I won't comment on the irony of a car dealer telling me that...:))Tell you what, I'll buy that Ferrari with the gold bullion I have in my filing cabinet...Seriously, I think you're right about the low ball and that was something I was concerned about.
Mirth, good points, the problem is that up here we have trouble getting the invoice price, you have to purchase online from a couple different sources, also I don't think TMV applies to Canada.
I guess I was hoping to find a way to get a decent price without schlepping around to each dealership, there's that laziness thing again.
The other kicker is that one of the vehicles I was looking at was the Sienna (the other being the Quest) and up here we have "Access Pricing" which I hear rumours the dealers will not stray from claiming sanctions from Toyota if they do. Toyota of course denies, (anti competitive us?) and even says on the website that "dealers may sell for less".
And they say the law is confusing....
As you can see above, I do know the two vehicles I want and the trim level. All I have in terms of pricing right now are the MSRP's and the Access Price for Toyota. I don't have the invoice price yet, I have to buy that online. I thought what I would do, once I have invoice price in hand is send out an OTD offer, as Mirth suggested, and see what responses I get back.
Frankly, if I can save a grand or two great, if it's a couple hundred bucks then heck I can make that up overcharging a client and my time is more valuable spent that way.
I LOVE IT!!!!
with you, people laugh and snicker...if i said that, hooooooeeeeeyyyy!!!!! look out!
As you can see above, I do know the two vehicles I want and the trim level. All I have in terms of pricing right now are the MSRP's and the Access Price for Toyota. I don't have the invoice price yet, I have to buy that online. I thought what I would do, once I have invoice price in hand is send out an OTD offer, as Mirth suggested, and see what responses I get back.
Frankly, if I can save a grand or two great, if it's a couple hundred bucks then heck I can make that up overcharging a client and my time is more valuable spent that way.
But then, I am one of those engineers. Which actually is a great opening salvo for negotiations. Some salesmen even wince.
First the body shop screwed up our Dodge, then the Chevy figured it would chime in and the t-case went out, then my Explorer couldn't be left out and had to turn on a throttle something er other light today after not wanting to start.
So, if you have it......along with our cold weather......please return both ASAP.
I have a 1998 Camry LE - all power opts (except seats) with spoiler and CD. It has 78K miles and is in good shape (some minor scratches).
The KBB value on this car is somewhere between 4,200 and 5,500...I'd say mine fits in at 5-5.2K
I was looking to trade up in years and down in miles...
I have looked at two vehicles at two different dealers...
Car 1) A 2002 Protege ES (alloy wheels, spoiler, cd, moonroof and power options except seats)with 50K miles, that had a window sticker of 10,999 - but was advertised on the internet at 9,999. The dealer has gone down to about 8,900 and offered 5,200 for my car. So my cost is 3,700 plus tax/tags.
Car 2) A 2000 Nissan Altima SE (alloy wheels, spoler, cd, moonroof and all power opts except seats) with 63K miles, the sticker for this car is 9,999 but the dealer has come down to about 9000 and offered the same 5,200 for my Camry.
Are either of these good deals? Both cars are pretty clean...minor paint scratches/nicks on the hood and front bumper from miles.
What should a person expect to pay ABOVE what a used car is worth? The Protege is worth about 7,200 on trade in (according to KBB) and the Altima 6,850.
Obviously, I have done something good, in getting the dealers to come down from the sticker price, and they could come down more if they really want/need to move the cars. I guess I could really pit them against eachother...I'm just not sure the right way to go about it...we are pretty much up in the air with the vehicles, so lowest price will probably win...
I am leaning toward the Protege, my wife toward the Altima, but it's probably only because the Altima is black and the Protege is dark green...this is our second car...we have a 2002 Axiom that we got a great deal on and it has been very nice to us so far...
Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated...thanks!
And you're looking at cars with 50,000 and 63,000 miles.
Why do this?
You have a car with an excellent reputation which should give you 50,000 more miles of service, with only some regular maintenance. And even if you have to do more, such as alternator, starter, big brake job - these will each only cost what would be one month's (or less) payment on the car you are wanting to trade <up> to?
The Camry was bought in Sept of 2002 at an auto liquidation lot for 7,500 plus tax/tag...I paid for it outright. It had 62K miles on it when I got it. It came with some cheap tires and a noisy (rattles over rough roads) front suspension. It's in need of service (plugs/tune-up, tranny fluid change, anti-freeze flush/fill), tires, and if I choose, some paint work (relatively minor) that would get the car into top condition for it's age. I am guessing it would cost between 1.5-2K to do all of this (depending on if I get the paint work done and how much I have done).
Both cars I am looking at have very good (Atlima) to excellent (Protege) reliability ratings and both are newer and have less miles. I would rate the exterior of my Camry (paint condition) as a 7 out of 10 and the Protege an 8.5, the Altima a 9.5. The Protege and Altima also have nicer interiors and moon/sunroofs.
I would most likely be paying cash for the difference...no car payment if I can avoid it.
I like the Camry, and it has been reliable (just had new brakes put on it) and gets about 25-26 MPG in driving 25% city, 75% highway. I expect the Alitma to be slightly worse with MPG and the Protege to be slightly better.
I guess I just figured if the reliablity was considered EQUAL on all 3...then it would make sense to spend 3-4K on a newer car with less miles and slightly more options - than it would to repair/upgrade mine for 1.5-2K.
Just a few comments, I notice the Protege is a 2002 w/ 50K miles? I think that is extremely high mileage for a car that's only two years old.
The Nissan Altima is also slightly on the high side of mileage IMHO.
I'm looking at '99 vehicles: Escort LX, Protege LX, and Prism LSI and shooting for $5-6K out the door price. All vehicle should be around 60k miles.
One thing you might want to consider is that insurance is higher for Nissans vs either Mazda's or Toyota's.
Yeah, the mileage is a concern...but it's all relative to price, which is one of the reasons I posted this message...I think A GOOD DEAL would be about $1K less than where I am right now...so $2.7K plus tax an tag...but I'm not sure I have figured out the dealers low price yet...
regards,
kyfdx
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I would keep your current car in service and spend the money to do the PM. You are probably going to spend at least half of that getting a car back into condition. I have yet to see a used car that needed *no service* or PM work in the first six months.
good luck
One last question for you guys --- what is the sales tax based on for a new car purchase in VA? Does anyone know? I was going over the prelim paperwork last night and I couldn't figure it out. Is it based on the sale price of the vehicle, the price of the vehicle including delivery as well as the doc fee ... what? I can't get it to come out. I'll ask the dealer later, but I'm curious now... Thanks.
More than likely, the tax is on the difference between the price of the new truck and the price of your trade - fees are usually not taxed.
Your mileage may vary.
I think we are taxed on the price of the car, which includes transportation.
I don't think we are taxed on the DOC fee.
The reason I don't know more is because we make OTD offers and I have never really paind attention to how the details work out on paper. We assume a tax of 3.1% when we are computing our OTD price.
Wow, isn't our lovely state beautiful this time of year?
I called DMV and they told me it was a straight 3% of MSRP -- that just doesn't sound right to me. If you go on KJToyota's website they have a little program to figure the OTD and financing costs, but I swear, every time I entered a different car price, the tax was not a uniform %. I suppose if VA could ever figure out the tax situation, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in -- but that's another topic for another day, right bobst?
Thanks for your info.
Anyway, my advice is to figure your own OTD price. Something like invoice + your options + dealer markup + transportation. Then add 3.1% tax + $50 for tag/title.
If they accept, then buy the car. If not, go out to Manassas battlefield for a lovely spring walk and feel sorry for the car salesmen who have to live in the Seattle area.
http://www.dmv.state.va.us/webdoc/citizen/vehicles/sut.asp
on used cars, you pay sales tax on the final price (before trade).