Any Questions for a Car Dealer?

isellhondas · April 2004

Judging by that, you have never experienced a beautiful spring or summer day in Seattle or gone for a hike in the Cascades.

I couldn't take your hot summers!

thealey · April 2004

I have located a car online from a dealers inventory that has everything I want (color, options, etc.). However, he is two hours away. No dealer any closer has the same car. Can I not just go to my local dealer (10 minutes away) and tell him what I want and let him go get that car and then I'll eliminate travel and deal locally? What are the advantages and disadvantages of using one dealer over the other. Will I automatically get a better deal from the non-local dealer because he has the car? By the way, I have a trade-in if that matters. Thanks for your help.

rroyce10 · April 2004

...... That would be the easiest quickest way that I could think of ........

Terry.

bowke28 · April 2004

dealers dont work together that way. i would let your local guys try to get the car, but they may not be able to, so keep your options open.

also, dont let the non-local guy know what you are doing. then he will make a point NOT to let it go to another dealer.

akangl · April 2004

Wow, our closest dealer is about that. I drove 5 hours to get my Explorer and our Dodge. Hmmm, then again, I'm always driving, so guess it doesn't bother me.

Bowke is definatly right on the money with this one I think.

isellhondas · April 2004

Dealers don't always trade with each other so this miy not be possible. Work your deal first and let your local dealer know who has the car if they don't already know.

chadwick32 · April 2004

I am considering a purchase from local Infiniti dealership of what appears to be good clean used car (00' I30L). Car has approximately 40k miles. My concern is not knowing the service history of the car and whether a dealership would have access to any service records for the vehicle because I intend to keep the car for long term. I realize vehicle was most likely acquired at wholesale auction but my thinking is that through the dealer networks they should be able to access the vehicles' service history if service was indeed performed at another Infiniti dealership. I have not yet asked the question but wanted to be prepared for what the salesman may say to this request. Also, any other "insider" tips to ensure that a used vehicle purchased from a dealer has been well serviced or otherwise taken care of reasonably well. I will have my own mechanic inspect, get vehicle history report and the like but am looking for ideas outside the norm.

driftracer · April 2004

there's no reason why the dealer wouldn't have access to the warranty history. Walk over to service with the salesman, have the service advisor run the history, and check it out for yourself - have your mechanic review to see if anything speaks to him that you may have missed.

A CARFAX report and an inspection, along with the service history, is about all the research you can do. Good on you for doing it, instead of getting bit, then coming back later to whine and ask how to sue the dealer.

akangl · April 2004

Maybe its just an Alaska thing, but trying to get service history on a used car is like trying to squeeze blood from a rock. They say its a privacy thing (like the car cares if you give out its medical history) and they will not give it out.

Took a lot of persuading to get the Dodge's history and my 97 Explorer I didn't get until after we bought the Dodge from Cal's and my salesman walked me back and asked. All they will do is look at thier computer and run through a few things, no print out, nothing. I've only found this at the dealer's in Anchorage. The Fairbanks Ford dealer will give it out. Strange.

thel · April 2004

I have yet to have a buyer that cared that I had mine. Carmax told me to keep them b/c they didn't want the new owner to "Track me down" for whatever reason b/c the reciepts had my contact info on them. I personally like to see service records when I buy a used car, so I will continue to file them. The cars I've bought used that had service records, most were very incomplete...just an oil change here or there or a reciept for a new tire (usually a mis-match LOL).

mitzij · April 2004

At the dealership I work at, the service manager won't give out history to second owners. He says it can open a can of worms. If the customer sees that, 2 years ago the wiper motor was replaced, he'll think he's got a lemon because the wiper transmission died yesterday. I don't like this theory, I see it as your information about your car, however, since i'ts the policy here, I don't give out history. I don't think it's a corporate policy, just a dealer's policy. The only information a dealer has would be work done under warranty and service work done at that particular dealership.

driftracer · April 2004

in my hands (in a legal file), and that's the direct basis for my evaluation. I compare the vehicle and its service/warranty history to those in the market without a significant service/warranty history.

As a service manager, I've run many service/warranty history reports though GM's VIS and Chrysler's DIAL systems - I cut off the previous owner information and give the prospective owner the car's info.

I'd worry about doing business with a dealer who wouldn't do this for you, if you asked (most people won't).

akangl · April 2004

About thinking uh oh, what did we just buy?? When we finally got the service history on our Dodge I about had a heart attack. THREE owners in 4 years and 11,300 miles (we were number 4), LOTS of little problems with the truck, but the worst thing was 3 steering gear boxes. Hmmm, we were wondering what was wrong with the steering. Its all fixed now, thanks to the ESC we bought with it, but still scared me to death to see that we bought someone else's headache. Thankfully its been a great truck other than the gearbox needing to be replaced.

Now if I could just figure out why the Dodge gets 13 mpg on the hwy and my Explorer barely manages 14 mpg......ugh. (and no, I'm not a leadfoot)

rworrell · April 2004

When I bought my last 9-5 Aero, neither dealership in town wanted to give me the service history, even though it was still under warranty. I called Saab USA and politely asked them if that was their policy--they said it was not, and that a potential buyer should be given the history (I was assuming the lease). I called the dealer back and explained that to them and I had a fax within half-an-hour. Not a big deal in that case. Both Saab dealers in town are pretty nice.

chadwick32 · April 2004

Thanks to those who responded. By the way the salesman not only provided these records but did so before I even asked which was impressive. In scanning the records (which appeared to be a computer printout of actual service history that came from dealership records even though it was at a different dealership across the country)there were even some areas of slight concern which gives me more comfort with my salesman and the dealership (since they are being upfront). Overall though the service records show the car has been well maintained.

driftracer · April 2004

while maintenance is important, it doens't show on a warranty history - the warranty history is what I want to see, because I want to know what parts or systems broke, and how many times.

weaselinsuit · April 2004

I posted this on the sienna site as well but thought afterwards that this may be the best place to ask. How accurate are the invoice prices that you can purchase from a variety of sources, eg. carcostcanada.com or the APA?

smh5 · April 2004

I called a dealer 60 miles away from us based on the posts I've read on Edmunds (many mentioned they have gotten good deals through this dealer). The dealer doesn't have the car we want in stock but offered to locate one. The salesman wants me to make a trip to the dealership which I am reluctant to do unless it is to sign the paperwork based on an agreed purchase price. My questions are:

- He claimed he needs to see me in person in order to bring my offer to his manager; that they need to know that I'm a serious buyer. Is this necessary or can we settle on a price over the phone.

- Is the price negotiation done before the dealer starts the locating process?

- Is a deposit required and does the paperwork need to be signed before a dealer will start to locate a car?

Thanks for your response in advance.

rroyce10 · April 2004

...... It's not any different than any other business or legal agreement ...

A dealer isn't going to go through all the brain damage of a dealer trade, possibly lose the holdback, pay a driver to travel 120+ miles, and then gamble his $20,0/$30,0/$40,000+ investment on a whim or a maybe ... he wants a signed and sealed agreement and a non-refundable deposit, just like any furniture store, marina, jewelry, home builder or real estate agent ~ why the heck would cars be different ..?!?

Terry.

grapevinetx · April 2004

Smh5, from the customer perspective, unless you are willing to buy the vehicle at any price, you should also want the negotiation done and paperwork signed before the dealer trades for the vehicle.

As far as the claim that the salesperson needs to see you in person in order to bring your offer to his manager, this is a red flag that this salesperson isn't going to be respectful of your time as you proceed through the buying process and you need to decide up front whether this is OK with you. Certainly it is reasonable for the salesperson to obtain some assurance that you are a serious buyer, but there are plenty out there these days, who "get" internet buying, who do not require a personal visit in order to do this. My experience is that many will accept a complete, written, offer, transmitted by e-mail or fax, as proof that you are serious. If this one won't, and if you value your time, why would you want to give them your business?

smh5 · April 2004

Grapevinetx,

You make some good points.

They do have an Internet Sales department which presumably means they can negotiate without a face to face. I will contact them via Internet Sales.

Would you know whether the contract can be cancelled and deposit refunded if the car is not located within a certain period? Would that be something that is written into the contract?

driftracer · April 2004

"this is a red flag that this salesperson isn't going to be respectful of your time"

No, it means that the dealer wants to make sure you're serious before they run all over and spend their money on a deal that may not happen - they have plenty of vehicles in stock with holdback - they don't need one in stock without holdback, especially on a deal that isn't firm. It's just good business.

Besides, the deal hasn't gotten far enough for anyone to commit, so the time wasting and internet-mandatory concepts ae silly at this point.

grapevinetx · April 2004

Smh5, at this point in the buying process, you are making an offer. You can include in your offer any terms that are important to you, such as a time limit within which the vehicle must be located, that the deposit, if there is to be one, is refundable, etc. Remember that your offer, to be valid, needs to include an expiration date. The dealer will then either accept your offer and you will move forward to the writing of a sales contract, present you with a counteroffer, or reject your offer either outright or by failing to respond before the expiration date of your offer. Depending upon the response that you receive, you then decide how you wish to proceed.

grapevinetx · April 2004

Drift, my point was that if appearing in person is the only means of demonstrating seriousness that this salesperson will accept, then Smh5 has to decide whether this is a selling style that he / she is willing to work with. I can attest from personal experience that many dealers who understand internet buyers will accept that a buyer is serious based on factors other than willingness to appear in the showroom before negotiations have even begun. If an internet buying experience is what Smh5 is looking for, then he is exactly right that he should contact the internet department directly, preferably before he contacts anyone else at the dealership.

isellhondas · April 2004

Why in the world it's such a big deal to simply show up in person.

As far is being busy, well, it takes a bit of time to buy a car...sorry. It's not like buying a pair of shoes.

People who show up in person will ALWAYS be taken MUCH more seriously than someone afraid to come out from behind a keyboard.

We don't bite...at least (I hope)the majority of us.

My best advise, not that anyone asked...ask your friends, family and neighbors for a referral. Ask if they were happy with their last purchase and where they would reccommend.

I know I treat my referral customers in a friendly professional manner. I know they are serious buyers who will, in turn, refer me to others. This is how I have built my business.

It doesn't have to be that difficult.

rroyce10 · April 2004

........ I have to agree with the others .. "most" internet offers have little or no creditability when it comes to dealer trades .. just read some of the internet posts that are dropped here ~ "even though I live in Boston, I got offers from some dealers in Boston AND San Francisco" - thats when you go "HUH.?"

           If you want the dealer to think your serious, then act like your serious ... unfortunately the market is filled with 18/22 year old kids (or 44 year old dead beats) that can't afford 540i's or loaded up 4x4 Ford Supercabs, but they just want to see what they can buy them for, or sometimes they might be shopping your G35 against a Hyundai (and don't know the difference, ugh.!) who knows, maybe some of these folks are bored and their Best Buys credit card just got rejected and they can't get that new flat screen, so lets burn up some salesmans time on this car "I can't get approved in" ....

            Business is business and %&*# walks ..

                    Terry.

dbgindy · April 2004

There is also a little bit of difference about negoatiting over the internet for a vehicle on the lot versus looking to get a specific model,color,options,etc. from another dealer and bring it to their dealership. When I purchased my vehicle just about a year ago I started via the internet, then talked to the internet salesmen by phone, then went to the dealer in person to close the deal.
If I had asked them to bring my vehicle in from another dealer I would have expected them to ask for a signed order and a deposit.

Duncan

grapevinetx · April 2004

Yes, if I were asking a dealer to bring my vehicle in from another dealer, I would also expect them to ask for, at minimum, a signed order, and possibly also a deposit. I don't believe that I suggested otherwise. Internet buyers may prefer to provide these items by fax and credit card.

dbgindy · April 2004

Gotcha. maybe it was just the way I ( and others:-) read it. Go Pacers!

Duncan

smh5 · April 2004

Isellhondas,

The dealer is over an hour's drive from us.

The salesperson had asked me what price I had in mind and I told him. He said he cannot present my offer to his manager unless I am there in person. I told him I am willing to give him a CC deposit to show I am serious after we reach an agreement. I don't want make the drive just to have them reject my offer in person.

Just as dealers want to work with serious prospects, buyers want to work with serious dealers who won't give them the run around.

Thanks for your suggestion on asking people for referrals. It didn't occur to me that a neighbor did indeed buy a new car from the same manufacturer we are looking at. I will ask them.

Thank you everyone, for your input.

jratcliffe · April 2004

Asking for a deposit seems entirely reasonable. Demanding that that deposit be made in person doesn't.

The dealership should be fine with your signature on a purchase order, giving price, vehicle, terms, etc., and a $1000 deposit on your credit card, with a rider saying that the deposit is only refundable if the vehicle is not located within two weeks.

exb0 · April 2004

Move on, the salesman is playing games. He wants you there to give him a chance to work you over. There is no reason why you cant agree on the price over the phone and then go to the dealer to sign the paper work before he gets the car. I have negotiated my deals over the phone at least a half a dozen times.

rroyce10 · April 2004

... ** He wants you there to give him a chance to work you over. **

I think you have been sitting a little too close to the TV while you watch the Soprano's .l.o.l...

Terry.

bowke28 · April 2004

is to fax a signed offer to them first. if they are unwilling to settle on price, then go to a different dealer. you based your dealer decision on the experiences of people with different personalities than yourself. go to the local guy if the first dealer doesnt come around.

in your fax, also state that you are willing to put a deposit on the car if the numbers are settled. it only takes, at most, a couple counter-offers to settle, so if they are willing, it shouldnt take much of their time.

maq4463 · April 2004

Just read this today...

http://www.detnews.com/2004/autosinsider/0404/26/a01-132620.htm

kyfdx · April 2004

"Waters said he was so fixated on the $300 monthly payment he paid little attention to the interest rate he was charged."

Well...duhhh

mitzij · April 2004

What kills me is that it's the dealer's fault! This guy didn't have the sense to realize that $300 per month for 59 months is a whole lot more than the purchase price of the vehicle and it's because the dealer hoodwinked him? I've had 2 loans in my life and on both, I knew exactly how much interest I was paying before I agreed to the payments. I'm not the sharpest tack in the drawer, but if I'm laying out money for something, It's my business to know where it's going.

weaselinsuit · April 2004

I think it depends upon what happened. Granted, fixating on the monthly payment to the exclusion of all else is a bad idea. But if they double the interest rate he qualifies for, I think they owe a little disclosure. It seems to me a reputable dealer would have drawn the rate to his attention, even if it was listed on the contract. Not drawing it to his attention and then blaming him for not asking the right questions, while perhaps legal, is unethical. Yes, you have a responsibility to look out for yourself, but for someone else to take advantage of your lapse or lack of attention on such an important point, well, it wouldn't be my idea of conducting business in a proper fashion.

bowke28 · April 2004

you all tend to forget that the written offer is often "if the payment is no more than $300/mo., i will buy this car now."

the dealer has no more responsibility after that. as far as the dealer knows, the person is aware of the math, and is allowing them to make a little extra money.

kyfdx · April 2004

the interest rate is spelled out on the front page of the contract. About the only numbers that have to be on there are the original amount loaned, the APR, the total interest, the monthly payment and the number of payments. Not too many places to hide a number like 23.99%.

kyfdx · April 2004

If he walked in and they told him they wanted $18K for that car, instead of $11K and he didn't know any better and bought it, would they be ripoff artists? Or would he be a dumb___?

I can never figure out why someone would research the value of a car, but doesn't find out how cheap they can get the financing, which is usually 20% of the cost or more.

brianw220 · April 2004

Look at the rest of the recap sheet at the bottom of the article. The total deal (front + back) only generated 4k and change. That's hardly an enormous deal on a used vehicle.

rroyce10 · April 2004

........ If this is the same guy that paid a half-point more and $5,000 in closing costs on his $150,000 home .. the disclosure form is as big as Silver Dollar, how can you miss it ...?

Terry.

driftracer · April 2004

"In Michael Waters case, the dealer charged him 24 percent interest on his 59-month Ford Contour loan  more than double the 11.99 percent for which he qualified based on his credit history. The markup generated $3,100 in extra finance charges."

"more than double the 11.99 percent for which he qualified based on his credit history"

Says who? The expert who wrote the article?? If the guy was written at 23.99% and the dealer marked it up 3 points, the guy QUALIFIED at 20.99%.

There's a federally-mandated disclosure box on ALL automotive finance contracts - if you have a question, the time to ask is before you sign, not two years later.

racer63 · April 2004

The interest rate and the total finance charge was right there in print at the bottom of the loan agreement. Duuuuhhhhhhh! Or, do some 3rd grade math of 300*60=$18,000, which obviously is way greater than the $11k and change the purchase price is? At that point, tear up the deal and walk. All this was over commodity transportation, a Ford Contour.......

Instead, do the deal, then run to a lawyer to attempt to save yourself from your own stupidity!

rroyce10 · April 2004

..... ** Says who? The expert who wrote the article?? If the guy was written at 23.99% and the dealer marked it up 3 points, the guy QUALIFIED at 20.99%. **

Ya know, who are these experts that just write these articles, or forget to do the math or gather the proper information and then they get away with it .? ... hmm, sounds like the guy from the New York Times that wrote all those "Battle" articles from the bar down the street, not from Baghdad ......

Terry.

weaselinsuit · April 2004

I will plead ignorance to the sheet and how the interest rate is disclosed.

Nevertheless, I still think it stinks if he qualified for just under 12% interest and the dealer racked it up to 24%. I'm sorry, but adding a few points to make a buck/cover costs, fair enough, but to double the interest rate without drawing it to his attention? It must have been blatantly obvious that he was unaware of the hike.

Sorry folks, I think that's an unethical way to do business. When I run people through any agreements or forms in my office, I go through each clause, especially the important ones, i.e. where it's going to cost them money, and make sure they understand things. It's simply ethical good business, and if trouble crops up later, you can point to the fact that they were taken through it step by step.

Ok, I'll climb down off the soapbox now....

rroyce10 · April 2004

......... Oh God, here we go .... !!

What Drift was saying is, there is "No Such Thing" as doubling the rate, no matter what state you live in .. the guy might have been hit at "maybe" 18.99% with a 5 point spread, "Maybe", depending on the lender ... not 11.99% .... Oy Vey.!

Terry.

weaselinsuit · April 2004

Sorry but I'm not sure how that point is obvious in drift's case. Maybe I'm clueless or blind or both [the better half has suggested that both may be the case

]. Is there something that prevents such a bump as described in the article, please understand, I'm seeking info here to try and comprehend.

weaselinsuit · April 2004

drift's case = drift's post....yeeesh, too much time spent in front of the computer....

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