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Dealer's Tricks - bait & switch, etc.

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Comments

  • ptmccainptmccain Member Posts: 86
    The materials I have posted here are not copyrighted. I have not "stolen" material.

    When will I see a notice from you of equal seriousness to those who have used vulgarity and vituperative/abusive language on Edmunds?

    I appreciate your concern for maintaining the user agreement rules, but I would appreciate even more consistency on your part in enforcing those rules. May I expect that?
  • sledpeddler1sledpeddler1 Member Posts: 8
    ptmccain, man some car salesman must have slammed you hard, for you to spend all your free time on here bashing the business. IF I wasn't in the car biz, i'd find better things to do.You should start your own consumer protection site, why let these guys make all the money?
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    forget the car sales process...I went out and purchased a mattress and washer+dryer today. I saw some sales action that would make the guy/tactics in the confession article look bush-league. I needed a drink when i got done...The salesperson at the w/d stores werent bad, no tricks but the look on their faces when i asked to see invoice was priceless. hahaha. None of them dazzled me with product knowledge comparisons, which was a little important to ne, but I haggled at all places (large national chains) and got discounts and other goodies.

    hey PT, if you want to be helpful to consumers go after the mattress business.. the car biz isnt even close. We need to see the story "confession of a mattress salesperson"...I nominate PT.
  • pat455pat455 Member Posts: 603
    The point is that it is perfectly okay - as you certainly are capable of doing - to post links to web pages you think are appropriate.

    It is NOT okay to copy those webpages and post them under your user ID as though you had written the words yourself.

    There is an analogy about Town Hall that comes up from time to time, and that is that Town Hall is like a neighborhood bar. Now, we all know that drinking and driving do not mix, so leaving aside the "alcohol" portion of that analogy and focusing solely on the "social" portion of the neighborhood bar, let me proceed.

    Are you a person who walks into the neighborhood bar, pushes your way into the first conversation you run into and proceeds to badmouth everyone who had already been in this conversation for hours without even taking the time to listen to what the discussion was about?

    Would you then be surprised when all of the folks in the existing conversation simply turned away and ignored you? Would you then call for the "bartender" to make these people talk nicely to you? Would you be surprised when the bartender did not respond the way you demanded?

    Or would you be a person who could walk around for a while listening to several conversations looking for a discussion that encompasses your own thoughts, find one, listen for a while, and then, when there was a pause in the discussion, start contributing some of your own thoughts while listening for some feedback? And then when you got some feedback, would you tailor your further comments to accommodate that feedback, yet still try to politely get your point across?

    Which kind of person would you rather be, ptmccain?

    It's not that you don't have some worthwhile things to contribute to our site - you do indeed seem to want to help folks who are shopping for cars get great deals.

    However, there are plenty of conversations going on throughout Town Hall where folks are asking the kinds of questions you are trying to answer. You seem to be answering questions that are not asked in the topics you are frequenting.

    And this is one reason why your posts are not being well received.

    Pat
    Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
  • div2div2 Member Posts: 2,580
    Can't you just flip the "BAN" button on this guy/girl/whatever?
  • wtdwtd Member Posts: 96
    Here is how I combat that. Just like most dealers won't let you test drive their cars by yourself, I don't let them test drive mine alone. I always go with them. On my last trade in(93 S-10 4x4) the appraiser drove like he was 80 years old and didn't try to see if anything worked. He asked me if the 4x4 worked, didn't try it for himself. I must have made him nervous because I don't think too many people insist on going on the appraisal drive. If they don't trust me to go alone on a test drive with their vehicle, I'm sure not going to trust them with mine, unless I've got a piece of junk and don't care. I insist on being at the appraisal of my vehicle even if they don't plan on driving it. I want to see and hear for myself what they have to say about my car.
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    I love it when the customer goes along on the appraisal...I will often ask the customer to go with me. It allows me to size up the customer, plus they are always at ease in their own car. I will do a very complete review, point every flaw or problem i find then pull out the book and writing downt he number on the appraisal with the customer....showing them the books, auction reports, etc and explain how i arrived at the number. It isnt always the number they are looking for, but they understand the process a little better and since i justified the number 'with them' which often eliminates that objection pretty quickly.

    rich
  • ptmccainptmccain Member Posts: 86
    I have no hesitation whatsoever to acknowledge your right and duty to monitor compliance with Town Hall rules, and since you strongly believe I have broken those rules, I acknowledge your need to call me on it.

    What I asked for was simply some consistency on your part.

    Why have I not read an equally strong rebuke of those here who are resorting to obscenity, vulgarity and abusive language to express themselves? I have seen this rule broken numerous times and yet no strong rebuke and warning from you.

    I understand the need to insist on compliance with the rule and the fact that you need to enforce them. What I would like to see is a commitment on your part to equally vigorous warnings of those who violage the rules when it comes to language and abusive rhetoric.

    May I expect you to be equally vigorous and forceful in your enforcment of this Town Hall policy?
  • glenn384glenn384 Member Posts: 14
    I swore I would never post to you again....

    I did receive an e-mail from Pat, I was admonished for calling you an Idiot.

    I was wrong in doing so. No matter how I feel you add to or detract from the forum, I should not have violated the Town Hall policy. This was my first transgression in over two years of posting. You were cut some slack for logging in under an assumed name, which was your first offense in your few weeks of posting here. Your second offense was meet with more vigr, which it should have been.

    You are not being singled out. Getting back in the faces of hosts here is nothing but a continuation of your poor behavior.

    It you wish to discuss this farther, post your email address. Or, I will post mine so you can email me.
  • wilcoxwilcox Member Posts: 582
    You may have had the right message for those who want to control the conversation. What was it, "..just invite em out back and..."?

    But if a sales person gets too pushy, I'd just let them fade, no sense in getting mad or the pistol out. Calm down.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Excellent job of espressing your thoughts in a manner that would have worked with most people.

    Unfortunately, he missed the point.

    Once, while on a business trip in Alaska, I wandered into a local tavern. I could tell I was overdressed and I kept my mouth shut, my head low, and didn't stay long.

    On the wall was a chalkboard. On one side it said 86'd for a year. There were probably a dozen names along with dates.

    On the other side it said...86'd FOREVER. There were four or five names there.

    As I left, a fistfight was taking place in the parking lot!

    Ketchikan, Alaska isn't a good place to start trouble!
  • KCRamKCRam Member Posts: 3,516
    Town Hall is set up for, designed to follow, and controlled by the idea that this is a friendly exchange of ideas. The User Agreement that all of us agreed to when we registered to participate here very clearly spells this out.

    In recent weeks, there has been a very visible "edge" to many posts, both by members new to Town Hall and the veterans who have literally been here for years. I just want to remind all users that spirited debate and the "agree-to-disagree" concept are encouraged, but there will be an immediate end to name-calling, badgering, insults, and posts that serve no purpose other than to incite arguments or anger. Posts of this nature will now be deleted on sight, and Town Hall management will contact the poster directly via email. Repeat offenses WILL result in suspensions and/or permanent banishment from these forums.

    Having said that, please carry on, showing the respect that everyone has earned and deserves. Thank you!

    kcram
    Co-Host - Smart Shopper & FWI Conferences
    edmunds.com Town Hall
  • mrdietmrdiet Member Posts: 16
    This trick happened to me when I was buying a mattress, but I'm going to make the outlandish assumption that it happens sometimes to the car buyer too.

    There were two salespeople in the store at the time. One was a fat gentleman, about 45, in a white shirt and tie. The other was a petite woman on crutches. The fat gentleman showed me the mattresses he had, and generally was a determined proponent of the theory that fewer springs was better. He asked me how I slept, and when I said on my back, he said he didn't believe me, and claimed that the more padding I had, the more comfortable I would be.

    I decided which mattress I wanted, and ignored a great deal of pressure to buy something more expensive or fluffy-looking. The fat gentleman then left the room, perhaps in disgust at the lamentable practice on the part of the mattress-buying public of buying insufficient padding. So I turned to the woman and introduced myself.

    I was buying a queen size with a frame, so I asked what the total was including the frame, delivery, and taxes. She totalled up the figures on an adding machine and gave it to me. Let's say it was $850. I mulled this over, and decided to offer $650.
    Without a word, she retabulated the numbers and arrived at $810.
    I asked if they could do $650.
    Absolutely not, offered the fat gentleman, who had now recovered from his indisposition, they would go out of business at that price.
    The woman verbalized an inspiration of hers, that perhaps there might be a special on this mattress. She called someone on the phone, and found indeed there was a special, they could do $760.
    I asked if they were sure they couldn't do $650.
    Oh no, said the fat gentleman, and he gave various reasons why, along with a few other facts which although interesting were probably not too relevant. During this time the woman volunteered that she was a sales manager, and was not on commission, and I politely reassured her that that was OK, and that I was sure it was none of my business anyway. I smiled.
    I told the fat gentleman that I understood how he could not be expected to do $650, and that it was OK, and I rose to leave.
    While I was standing, the woman again probed the mysteries of the person on the other side of the telephone, and there was good news. He could do $690, she said. That's only $40 more, she said.
    I accepted her offer of $690, and sat down again. Using the tabulation machine, she rung it up, and showed to me, a total of $755! The woman had cleverly made a low offer to make me move, and then had withdrawn her offer! I pointed out her mistake, and after feigning innocence, she tried the magic phone again.
    The customer meant out-the-door, she said. She made some more noises into the telephone. (It really did seem like she was talking to some one!)
    The phone approved $690 out-the-door, so I bought it, said thank-you, and left. The fat gentleman was gazing intently at some blank pages in front of him, perhaps gratified to know that he wasn't going out of business, at least today.
  • wilcoxwilcox Member Posts: 582
    in Mexico. Is it time to give them statehood? LOL
  • ptmccainptmccain Member Posts: 86
    Do car salesmen often engage in "tricks" and "techniques" when they sell a car? Of course they do.

    With all the information available on the Internet to the car buyer, there is no good reason why anyone should get "taken" any longer.

    Frankly, given the information out there, a customer who does get taken has nobody to blame but himself.

    You can find out what the car cost the dealer and then you can go from there and fix a price you are comfortable with.

    The best "technique" for a customer is simply to say, "I'm sorry we could not do business." Then stand up, say goodbye and walk out the door.

    Pretty easy actually.
  • floridianfloridian Member Posts: 219
    I may have been in that SAME bar. It was named "Two Larrys". my name IS Larry as is my bro-in-law. We were there last August. They sell neat t-shirts for the tourists. We wanted to get a couple of shirts and went in. Smoke so thick you cold cut it with a knife and the barmaid called everybody "sugar booger" or "doll" LOL. Any way the manager could not get to the shirts because he did not have a key to the room where they kept the stock of shirts and the GUNS !!! I bet they had very little trouble there !

    Floridian
  • ls1v8ls1v8 Member Posts: 34
    Teddy Bears. They can't hurt you.
  • isellpotiacisellpotiac Member Posts: 122
    If all the info you find on the net soooooooooo great how come I have yet to see any website pay cash for trade in? Until edmunds or kbb or carbuyingtips start forking over cash for trades you must take the info with a grain of salt. I just recently told a customer to sell his beater to the internet because his expectations were so out of wack. If I am selling a car at $5000 under invoice but don't have one to sell you it is the same thing.
  • ptmccainptmccain Member Posts: 86
    Funny post! You were kidding, right? You are not seriously suggesting that the great info. buyers get on the www is suspect because we can't get cash for our trade in from net buying services?

    I refuse to believe you are serious, for me to do so would also be for me to assume that you are a very silly person!

    The last sentence of your post was totally incoherent.

    And, of course, we both know you never sell a new car at $5,000 *under* invoice.
  • ccotenjccotenj Member Posts: 610
    oh, i don't know (re:5k under invoice)... he DOES sell pontiacs, after all!!! :)

    -Chris
  • bryannbryann Member Posts: 54
    hey guys, i was wondering what kind of advice you can give someone trying to buy a Honda Odyssey. all the dealers are selling at MSRP or higher. thanks in advance for the help.
  • jmurman42jmurman42 Member Posts: 675
    The Odyssey is in VERY high demand and supplies are tight. I receive between 18-22 per month, and ALL are presold two months prior at MSRP. We are different in that we guarantee our customers their Odys. Some dealers will do the "addendum" thing but, we do that. Nor do we add options, unless you wanted them.

    Have you just started looking at them?
  • bryannbryann Member Posts: 54
    thanks for the info. i have started to look, but my brother is on the list for a january delivery and he is not going to buy. i will take his place in line. this is the first time that i have bought a car for even close to MSRP. which dealership do you work at and where is it located?
  • jmurman42jmurman42 Member Posts: 675
    I work at Heritage Honda, Towson MD

    email: heritagehonda@aol.com

    Jerry
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Dealers in some areas are now discounting the Odys. slightly.
    The over msrp stickers in the northeast are nothing more than a pleasant memory...

    Rich
  • jmurman42jmurman42 Member Posts: 675
    Thats not really true, on the Odyssey prices paid forum, MSRP is overwhelming the majority, with a large percentage of dealers going over sticker. These dealers are all over, not just East Coast.

    What is the going rate in Tenn?
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    I have no idea about here in TN...actually if you dont drive a domestic the rednecks here look at you like your a communist..hahah
    but after being in the car biz in CT for 17 years I have quite a few friends at honda dealers, Honda was even one of our many franchises....they are discounting if the consumer isnt foolish enough to believe all the full list hype. I am speaking of connecticut in particular...from my standpoint, I love it when people pay list or more, but it never lasts forever on mass produced products....

    Rich
  • pat84pat84 Member Posts: 817
    I am curious how you are going to take your brothers place on the list to by an Odyssey ? If your brother refuses, that should be it. I was on one dealer's list and found a dealer that had bought out another and had 2 un-orderd Odysseys coming in 6 weeks. I got the second one. About 2 months later the dealer, on whose list I was still on, called. They said my Odyssey would be in about 4 to 6 weeks did I still want to keep my place on their list ? I said "No." They said, "thank you,we'll go to the next name on the list." I would consider any reputable dealer to have done the same.
  • tboner1965tboner1965 Member Posts: 647
    I'm sure there is a way, the vehicle could be titled in both names, instead of a husband and wife deal, it would just be a brother and brother deal.

    I guess it depends on the dealership concerning what they do. If the original brother has been a good customer of the Honda store, I can't imagine they would stiff him over one vehicle. They would want him back for the next.

    Now, if the brother has never bought a Honda before, then perhaps that is another story. Yet, even there, one has the opportunity to perform a good will gesture. The customers waiting for their vehicles later in line would not know.

    I believe there is too much opportunity to lose a customer or two by refusing to let the other brother take his place.

    But then I don't sell cars every day.

    Cheers,

    TB
  • jelehjeleh Member Posts: 2
    I have the advantage of using this through my wife and I was wondering just how this works with getting the best possible deal.I understand that this is about 13% off MSRP, what I want to know is , are there any good deals to be had by the consumer, as I'm not sure if TMV applies to me any longer. Can I expect to wheel and deal on options or is no longer available to me either. By the way I am purchasing my second Dodge Ram .I plan on tradeing my 98 sport in, as it will save me the hassle of trying to find a buyer. My 2001 has a MSRP of $30,320 and Green Sheet of $25,269. These are not the options that I want but If I truly am getting a good deal I'm considering loading it up to boost up the resale value.Any information would be greatly appreciated.
  • mvargo1mvargo1 Member Posts: 298
    I'm guessing that Chrysler's Green Sheet Plan is similer to Ford's A/X plan or Nissans VPP plan. These are programs that are designed to allow employees of companies that are in some way affiliated with various car manufacturers to purchase vehicles made by the companies they work for. The deals are usually considerably below anything a normal consumer could expect. For example Nissan's VPP plan can be up to 4% under invoice after any rebates or incentives. The rules for participation are set in such a manner that there is no room for negotiation with the possible exception of dealed installed accessories.
  • jkangasjkangas Member Posts: 1
    I seem to have just gotten burned on this one. I was seeking a 2001 Ford Explorer Sport (options unimportant). Although they didn't have the car on the lot, the dealer was able to locate one. I only noticed after taking delivery that the radio had a CD player instead of a CD and tape player as advertised as standard equipment. In order to get one, I'll have to pay $500 for a new unit less $150 for the "old" unit, or a net of $350 for a cassette deck that probably costs $10.

    My advice to buyers is that they get an itemized list of equipment that comes with the car before inking a deal. My fault for not inspecting everything thoroughly (it was about 10 degrees when I picked it up), but I thought that this was a really cheap shot.

    -Jim
  • millerro3millerro3 Member Posts: 136
    Jim, it sounds like you are getting a really good deal. With such a price as you are able to obtain, how could one expect for all sorts of free things to be thrown in? After all, when you get something thrown into a deal, it IS being payed for out of the gross profit. I doubt they will 'wheel and deal' on options or aftermarket accessories because there is no profit margin in the price you are able to get. They don't want to lose money just to sell a car.

    As far as options that will raise the resale value, I'd look through an NADA book or KBB to determine for last year's model's "ADD's". If the options you're considering show up there then they will raise the resale by that amount one year later. Maybe. If the vehicle comes standard with that option the following year, I doubt it will be an "ADD" on your resale value.

    Good Luck!

    Rob
  • jelehjeleh Member Posts: 2
  • ptmccainptmccain Member Posts: 86
    Edmunds.com and www.carbuyingtips.com are, in my opinion, two of the most informative sites for the cosumer on the Internet.

    A well-informed car buyer can make a good deal and not get ripped off!
  • desert5desert5 Member Posts: 12
    I've been wanting to buy a celica but got so discouraged from having to listen to all the lies and manipulation from dealer sales-personnel, that I just plain gave up thinking about it. Too bad Toyota doesn't seem to have a consumer-complaint address.....
  • mengxiongmengxiong Member Posts: 1
    I am in the process of buying a 2001 RX300. I sent an exact description of what I want including year, model, color and a list of options and offered a price of $36500 to some dealers. Dealer A accepted my price, dealer B said they would sell it to me for $37000. Naturally I told dealer B my offer was accepted by dealer A, at which point deal B said dealer A was playing tricks with you. Sure enough, when I received a purchase order from deal A by fax, the price was right but 2 option items on my list were missing, that made me suspicious. I called deal A and left message, half an hour later they faxed me another purchase order with the 2 option items added and no change in price, so I signed it, faxed it back, their manager signed it and faxed it back to me.

    So at this point, I have a purchase order signed by deal A's manager, with year,make,model, a list of options, total unit price, sales tax, registration fee, and a deposit of $1000 on my credit card. They told me on the phone the vehicle would arrive approximately in a week and they asked me sent in loan draft from eloan.com so that they can have the draft cleared by the time the vehicle arrives. In the mean time, deal B keep insisting that deal A is just playing tricks with me, for example, they did not write the vehicle identification number on the purchase order. I am a little uneasy on the deal only because deal A did try to play tricks on me by omitting 2 option items on the first purchase order they faxed me. That's why I am asking for advice on this board, should I go ahead and send dealer A the loan draft from eloan.com? can they still play tricks from this point forward?
  • tonychrystonychrys Member Posts: 1,310
    If they know it's coming in two weeks, that means they have the VIN number. Get it. Also get them to fax you a copy of the invoice. Most Lexus dealers I've talked to have no problems showing any of their invoices or prices.

    By having the VIN attached to an equipment list, there can be no mistaking what was agreed upon.
  • ptmccainptmccain Member Posts: 86
    If you signed a sales contract, you would be advised to sign the fine print. The good news is that it may very well bind the dealership to precisely what you ordered, the bad news is that if you try to back out of the signed contract, you could lose your deposit. Good luck!
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    On a 36,500 purchase?

    If you are THAT distrustful, simply spend the extra 500.00 and buy it from the store you trust.

    The omission of those two items could have been an honest mistake.

    On the other hand, there are dealers who hate it when a customer tries to pit them against other dealers to save a buck or two.

    I would skip the fax routine and (gasp) show up in person to make sure everything is being done properly.
  • maryg2maryg2 Member Posts: 33
    While I was shopping for my new car a couple of months ago, my husband and I stopped by a Nissan dealer just to see what Nissan had. I explained that I would sell or trade in my '96 Accord and buy a new car but wasn't set on buying another Accord (which I eventually did). The young salesman began to tell me about a nice Altima on the lot "with about 4,000 miles on it" that had been "recently repossessed." We test drove it, and I really liked it, but I pointed out that the car had 15,000 miles on it. The salesman replied, "Well, we'll give you a good deal on it." We said we would think about it and return the next day. Just before we left, my husband asked for the VIN number.

    Well, it turns out the car was a former Budget rental car that had been bought at auction. When the salesman called us bright and early the next morning, I told him that and he said he was confused (I bet). The funny thing is that I might have bought a new Altima from him if he hadn't been such a lying sack of....flour?
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    I hate hearing stories like this but I know these things happen everyday.

    And...what a stupid salesman. Why lie about something that can be easilly chacked out?

    Confused...yeah, right!
  • AltimaManAltimaMan Member Posts: 3
    Has anyone heard about MA or Marketing Assistance. The Sales Consultant states that Nissan charges the dealer the $400 and he must pass it on as part of the invoice. He even faxed me the invoice showing the charge. Is this real or something that Nissan then rebates to the dealer?

    Any information would help.

    Thanks!

    AltimaMan
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    it's legit...many of nisans marketing regions charge fees to each car sold to pay for advertising...Ford calls it FDAF on their invoice. Toyota calls it TDA...

    A dealer can opt not to be in the program but they lose out on alot of factory incentives. So almost all are part of the program.

    Rich
  • mvargo1mvargo1 Member Posts: 298
    Market assesment is the advertising charge. It is a legit. part of the invoice price. Please reread the buying advice parts of this web site for a more in depth explination of advertising fees.
  • fatjuanfatjuan Member Posts: 14
    why do dealers want such an inflated price for used cars when banks won't finance anywhere near the dealer's asking price??
  • isellpotiacisellpotiac Member Posts: 122
    Lend money at .9%? Oh that's right the banks are not in the car business, they are in the money selling business.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Normally, banks like to see 20-25% as a down payment. When people want to buy a high demand, high value used car with little or nothing down, THAT'S when they run into book problems.
  • im_brentwoodim_brentwood Member Posts: 4,883
    Depends on the car.

    Most Banks will, if you have very good credit, Loan up to NADA Retail on a used car, sometimes more.

    The lower your score, and the lower your tier, the less they will loan on the car for reasons of being in an equity position.

    Bill
This discussion has been closed.