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And BTW kenny, Nissan is surprising in that Infiniti reliability is tops on the list, but Nissan-branded cars score way down the list, not even in the top 10. This is as opposed to Toyota/Lexus and Honda/Acura, where both brands tend to score near each other on the list.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The difference noted was in CR's reliable used car ratings. The only significant difference in the trouble spot rating section was a below average rating for the '99 V6 for the power equipment category which covers electronic accessories. Yet the 4 cylinder was singled out for the reliable used car buy list for '00-'01 while the V6 was left off entirely. Go figure - that must be one of the categories CR weighs heavier than others in their ratings.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
I think the difference was that they were not manufactured in the same place, and used local suppliers for those parts.
I am curious what they will make of the current ignition coil debacle on the 1.8T engine only. Will that problem go under the "engine" category? Or is that under something different?
What was the problem that made reliability worse than average for the 2.8L 6-cylinder engine?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Please see the NYT car review for more details.
There is an ignition category which coils are rated under.
Nine magazine road testers participated and the Times published combined rankings of nine different cars.
The #1 Mazda6i (2.3 i4) beat all the cars mentioned in the title of this board mostly because the testers really liked it's handling and interior styling.
Second was the Passat GL (1.8T) also well liked for handling and strong body integrity.
The Accord EX finished #3 with much praise for it's handling feel followed by the Altima 2.5S and the Chevy Impala LS (which reviewers thought was more fun than they'd expected).
The Camry LE was #6 with much disparagement of it's limp handling and some regard for it's good finish.
Three other cars finished behind these and you can get the details at nytimes.com, click on "automobiles at top left.
Remember, don't shoot the messenger. I haven't driven any of these cars but I'm anxious to get my hands on a Mazda6, particularly when the awd Mazdaspeed 6S comes around next year.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Thx
V6EX vs V6LX you get dual A/C, side curtain airbags, lumbar support on the driver seat, interior accents, CD w/ 6disc in dash changer, leather, illumintated window controls(wierd.) and electronic brake distribution.
I4LX vs V6LX you also get Side air bags, steering wheel audio controls.
I4 vs V6 (LX) is $3000 difference
V6 Ex vs V6 Lx is $2800 difference
You also may want to consider the I4 EX 5AT, it's a happy medium and will give you most of the V6 add-ons +extras w/o the engine.
Good luck
I agree that it would be helpful for J.D. Power to break its ratings down by model, but the regrettable fact remains that VWs in general are simply not as reliable long-term. This is not so important for 3-year lease types, but it matters to people who like to keep their cars longer. And VW's new, longer warranty is little comfort to me - I don't want the car to have to go into the shop in the first place, even if it's covered by a warranty.
It's also true that any given Honda can be a lemon and any given VW can be a peach. All you can do is play the odds.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Besides, now that they have done the engineering for the 6-speed in the coupe, why not extend that powertrain to the rest of the sedan line-up?
I would say Toyota should do the same for the Camry, but really, would the demand be there, given that it is a lot less involving drive? I cheered to see that Toyota had kept a manual in the line-up for 4-cylinder cars, but just try to find one out there on the Toyota dealership lots of America. IMPOSSIBLE! I don't think Camry manuals are very popular.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But you can get the non-4WD Passat V-6 as a manual, right?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
Before I went with the 4 I'd take a test ride over to the Cross Island or Southern State to see if I thought it had enough juice to merge comfortably with traffic on those ridiculously short ramps.
2001 BMW 330ci/E46, 2008 BMW 335i conv/E93
I'm amazed at how much attention people give to split-second 0-60 time differences and to horsepower. You'd think they were all about to enter the Indy 500, and that nobody was ever able to get on a freeway with less than 200 HP.
For a manufacturer like Chevy or Ford, or even Toyota, that manufacturers many more different models than Honda and VW, this may not be true. The Mercedes ML320 was able to skew the overall Mercedes score because their overall sales are much lower than Honda and VW.
However, I agree, with so many choices above 200hp it is starting to look like it has become a marketing race.
Still, I think there is a place for sports sedans and wagons, and with the added weight, some cars/manufacturers are falling behind.
- D
I don't think this is true... what's your point of comparison for "a few years back"? Can you cite some examples?
Let's say the current camry weighs 3500 lbs (hefty estimate...)...50% is 1750 lbs. My old 88 Camry weighed little more than 3000 pounds.
Not a 50% increase from 1988.
The smaller cars are getting bigger, though...at least hondas.
My 1984 Civic was about 1900 lbs, an '03 civic is
2400 lbs. that is a 25% increase....
The amazing this is the cars a much bigger on the inside, but get the same gas milage.
I wish they would bring a couple of the minicars here from Europe or Japan. I heard a while back they might be considering this.
Right now the only little car you can get is the Mini.
Lighter is better! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Hondas and Toyotas may not have gained as much as some other brands.
1992 GTI 2346 lbs
1997 GTI 2564 lbs + 9%
2002 GTI (2.8lVR6) 3011 lbs +28%
2003 Golf R32 (3.2lVR6) ~3420 lbs +46%
There are numerous more examples, just go to Edmunds' great historical resources, as I did.
Tan: "Let's say the current camry weighs 3500 lbs (hefty estimate...)...50% is 1750 lbs."
Tan, before you start criticizing others, get your math straight. I said 50% more, now. That is, the original car would have been 2333 lbs, not 1750. Using your convenience math, you made an error of 33%.
I agree that some cars have gained less, but they still are significantly heavier:
1990 Toyoto Camry base model: 2690 lbs
2002 XLE V6 Camry 3362 lbs +25%
If you are wondering about my engine choices, that is part of the entire point. More powerful engines have and needed to become available with newer cars, which in turn has made them heavier, as well.
- D
Accord - 10%
(changed class from compact to midsize)
Camry - 3%
Intrepid - 10%
Regal - 5%
Taurus - 9%
Golf GL - 10%
Civic - 6%
Corolla - 9%
Passat - 8%
These figures are from Edmund's, using base engine, medium level trim. For these cars, that's the big sellers. If there wasn't a medium level trim, I used base trim. Formula was (2003 weight - 1993 weight)/1993 weight.
Yes, weight has been increasing, but 50% is definitely WAY, WAY on the extreme end. Not a single one of these mainstream cars has had a weight increase of over 10%.
I don't deny that cars are somewhat heavier than 10 years ago, but you originally said:
"... but cars also weigh about 50% more than just a few years back."
The facts just don't support that blanket statement... even your own followup post shows only one example that comes even near to that 50% figure.
Is a ~10% increase "significant"? Well, for one thing, given how much attention is paid to government crash tests, I'm not surprised to see cars being "beefed up" to do better in them. I'm sure that results in some of the weight gain.
Can anybody tell me of some good articles (CR, Car and Driver, etc) that compare the 03 Altima 3.5, Passat GLX, Accord V6, and Camry V6. These are the mainstream sedans today that I am interested in. I do not want to look at another Ford product, ie, Mazda 6. It's a shame that a reputable company like MAzda has to use a Ford engine in a product that they help will save the company!! Oh well! I wish them luck!
Thanks for your help!
the '90 was a base model.
Wild stab in the dark, its missing a few decently heavy things that the '02 XLE V6 had.
Side Air Bags
Air Conditioner
Alloys vs Steel Wheels
Air Bags
Cruise Control
Stereo(w/ speakers)
ABS
Full size spare vs. compact spare
Power windows
Power locks
The Camry LE for '02 weighs in at 3082 lbs. w/ I4 5MT but it still comes with many of the features that the V6 XLE comes with. The camry has also grown 6.9" in length, 3.3" in width, and 3.8" in height since '90(which is about 20-30% all the way around). Considering that, the now 392# is well worth it when you get all the safety equipment, 30% more HP, and all the convenience features. In fact, I'm kinda surprised that it hasn't gained more weight.
Just had to be the devil's advocate =o)
The other Accord tests of which I'm aware are mostly individual tests, rather than head-to-head with the competition. Each article has something to say about how the Accord compares to selected competitors... mostly the Passat because Honda targeted that car in some respects, and the Altima because of the "HP wars" with the V-6 engines. Some individual tests are on Edmunds, CarPoint, New Car Test Drive and in Car and Driver. Motor Trend also tested the Accord V-6 vs. the Mercedes CLK320, which is probably of limited value to you based on your requirements.
If memory serves, corolla back then was about 105 hp, now it is 130, so that is slightly less than a 25% increase in power.
toyotaken's point is well taken - many of these cars have changed their position in the market, becoming bigger cars than they were then, but that is part of the problem. People haven't gotten much bigger, families have if anything shrunk in size in the U.S., and I can't believe that the amount these cars (like camry) have grown can be commensurate with the added safety equipment that is required today. The '90 camry WAS about the size of today's corolla, so the difference in size now is a good 25% or more. Are we suggesting that the addition of a safety cage and crumple zones requires a 25% bump in size? How can that be when echo has met federal safety requirements too, and is half the size?
I think the obvious answer is that in the U.S. market bigger is better (SUVs prove that, don't they?) and horsepower wars are a must to woo consumers.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Accord - 28%
Camry - 17%
Intrepid - 31%
Regal - 43%
Taurus - 11%
Golf GL - 0%
Civic - 13%
Corolla - 13%
Passat - 27%
So, with one exception, the horsepower increases have exceeded the weight increases.
The rest of the cars prove my point: they all increased power more than they increased their weight, some dramatically! (Regal at 43% increase? - whew!)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
sorry my math ain't right all the time....with if I have an engineering degree....
Both cars also
If you like stickshift...Passat GL
Automatics....both have 5-speed automatics
Fog lights...both don't have them
Passat doesn't have:
Alloy wheels
Leather Interior
Sunroof
Automatic Climate Control
etc....
seems to confirm owner feedback from family members and friends on their vw vehicles (jettas, not passats) about those problems.
the passat body should also be changing soon. sorry don't have info on safety equipment, but accord from latest news just got a 5-star safety rating.
throw in resale, including consumer reports now ranking accord #1 over the passat and camry, and you've got a strong case favoring the accord.
unless relative exclusivity and that "german feel" are high on your score card.
good luck.