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Floridian
Someone please explain what the Jounce test really is. I think it has to do with how many times a car bounces when you go over a bump or when you push down on the car above a particular wheel.
dave
Floridian
I bought a used 95 SL1/5spd from the local dealer in Oklahoma City. Car looked and ran great with 88000 miles. My daughter drove over a curb 2-3 inches high at 10 miles per hour. The front sway bar bracket touched the curb. This impact was similar to hitting a pot-hole or a rough railroad crossing on a city street.
The right front k-frame buckled and the engine block cracked. I approached the local dealer service department about participating in the repair since this seemed to be some kind of design flaw to have that extensive damage from such a minor event. They ran backwards and gave me the factory 1-800 number and said the factory would have to make that decision.
I talked to a customer service representative in Tenn. I had the car towed to the local dealer for their techs to examine the damage. They gave me an estimate for parts and labor that exceeded the value of the car. The service manager also explained that the crumple zone of the car worked just the way it was supposed to work.
I called the factory representative I had dealt with and she said the local dealer had decided the car had performed as designed to perform in that situation. I commented that I was receiving two different stories and she repeated hers. She also explained how the car had done what it was designed to do.
They did not want to look at the photos or drawings of the event and did not seem interested in how the damage occurred before washing their hand of the problem.
TWO INCH CURB AT 10 MPH = TOTAL LOSS!!
Has anyone else had a similar experience?
Floridian, heh,heh,heh
Now, 5 years later, they are splitting up and she doesn't want the Saturn, which is sitting somewhere dead again! Turns out that her 1991 Escort that she got in 1992 has proven to be more reliable!
10mph=loss. I dunno. My car has more than 3 inches clearance ( i looked ). Were you actaully there, and looking at the odometer? How exactly did you measure the impact?
dave
I am a police officer (desk bound now in admin.)who specialized in traffic accident investigation when I worked the street. Seen a few crashes.
In short, the vehicle came to rest approx. one vehicle length from the area of impact, which was determined by a scratch in the concrete which corresponded with the concrete residue on the bent sway bar bracket. Further, the hub-cap remained on the right front tire, the tire bead was not broken loose and the wheel rim had only a quarter inch deflection out of round. The resting place of the vehicle was indicated in the lawn by a bare spot where my daughter spun the wheel taking off (new driver in her first stick shift) in the slick grass. All this was photographed and diagramed by myself at the time of the incident.
I believe the facts support the stated speed of the driver at 10 mph.
But since I don't trust myself to be completely objective here (my kid you know) I have asked a friend of mine to look over the vehicle and scene.
He is an accident reconstruction specialist with a local department.
Sorry I left out the details on the original post, but it seemed a bit long as it grew in the telling. I figured I could fill in the gaps if anyone came back at me.
I will post new info if my reconstructionist sees it differently. Also, I sent a nasty e-mail to Saturn yesterday. The reply was as smooth as butter - but without substance.
Thanks again for the response.
As for all the supposed auto experts that seam to blast Saturns, I have looked at quit a few cars and can't seam to find any that are as attractive as the SL2 and for that fact all Saturns. The Focus and Echo are just plane ugly. The Cavalier and Sunfire are Okay but I just prefer the Saturn.
I closing while all you whiners sit and complain I'll just sit back and enjoy my trouble free, born and built in the good old USA SATURN!!!!
This was exactly like straight ahead travel on a city street where the tire drops into a deep pothole and the lowest point of the auto scrapes the edge of the hole as the car rebounds out of the hole. Yes, we in Oklahoma City have potholes large & deep enough to loose a small car.
As I pointed out to Saturns "customer satisfaction" person, hundreds of cars in America drag their bellies on the ground each year. They sometimes suffer bent parts such as brackets and sway bars, they get knocked out of alignment, they have bent wheels. They do not have collateral damage to this extent.
Wheels were rolling. No skid marks approaching curb. Some rubber scuffed onto curb at area where tire first touched.
dave and fredfred3: you had a similar advice, calling for decarbonization of cylinders/injectors. Just to make sure, I first took my SL2 to my local mechanic, who first checked the oil and found it to be at the low end of the stick, at the "ADD" mark. He asked me to put in a quart of oil - but it did not fix the problem. However, then I went to Kragen and bought a 99-cent bottle of injector cleaner (akin to Techron) and put it in at the bottom of the tank at the next fillup. Hey, it seems to do the trick!! I did not notice any pinging after two days of use!
traveler: if the mixture were too rich, I'd suppose this would be caught at the next emission check which is compulsory here in California every two years. My Saturn had been passing it with a lot of room to spare so far!
Thanks again, guys. You are worth it!
Seriously.. I'm glad that worked for you. I do it periodically as a preventitive measure. My saturn passed the emissions test by a huge margin too.. You are allowed 103 parts per here, and i had 3. I was just a tad worried, because it does burn a quart of oil every 1500 miles or so.
dave
dave
I bought a 94 SC2 new, and loved it ... for the
first thousand miles or so.
After that, minor things went wrong. Throttle
springs broke, the fuel door broke. All in all,
about five times I had it back in the dealership
for minor but annoying repairs. Catalytic converter failed. Spark plug wires failed. and and and. The ABS light on the dash would spontaneously come on. Still I loved it and was pro-Saturn.
During my ownership, I offhandedly noticed that not much oil came out when I did the oil changes every 3000 - 4000 miles. I didn't think much of it, assuming that a new car wasn't going to burn much oil. Previously I had owned many different cars of ages ranging from 50K to 100K miles, of all different makes, and not one had burned more than a quart of oil per 3000 mile interval.
I was thus unpleasantly surprised when I let an oil change interval slip to 4500 miles, and the engine failed, at 36050 miles. The dealership calmly told me it ran out of oil, and it was my fault for not checking the oil every time I filled it with gas. Note that the oil light never came on; what good is that?
Saturn, in its infinite generosity, split the $4000 cost of the engine replacement with me.
Doing further research I found out that burning a
quart of oil every 1000 miles was "normal" for that Saturn engine.
Saturn built an engine that when new drinks more oil than most 150,000 mile Toyotas out there, and they never took responsibility for that negligence.
I now own a Subaru, and have had ZERO problems for 30K miles now. It simply is a far better designed and built car, in my ever so humble opinion.
Posters on this board attempted to discredit the originator of this web site because he is an attorney and because he is trying to get money out of Saturn. I am no fan of attorneys in general, but how does the fellow's choice of profession discredit him? He *is* trying to get money out of Saturn corporation, just like I tried like hell to get Saturn to pay the full cost of replacing my engine. If he was trying to use his professional status as an attorney to get money out of Saturn, he would be suing, not publishing a web site.
Which brings me to the title of this post. I believe that the reason Saturn is as high as it is in customer satisfaction is because everyone smiles and is so nice at the dealerships. The customers are brainwashed into thinking everything is terrific and wonderful, so they overlook reliability issues. When JD Powers contacts them, they forget about the repair issues and continue to say everything is wonderful. I fell victim to that brainwashing and just ignored all the little stuff that went wrong. When they sent me surveys I felt obligated to fill out "Excellent!" because I didn't want to criticize my Saturn family.
Now that I own a Subaru, I know what ownership of good cars is supposed to feel like. I can't believe how many times I brought my Saturn into the dealer for repairs, and I can't believe I blissfully ignored those repairs when people asked me how I liked my car.
This brainwashing reminds me of the brand loyalty my family had for Volvos. We suffered through a simply astonishing number of repairs, yet continued to say how we liked the car. I dealt with water pump issues in the 1971 we had; I later owned a 1980 and was shocked to find out the leaking water pump was still of the same flawed design. But still I Loved My Volvo. Another family member owned a much newer Volvo. The automatic transmission failed at 40K miles. Volvo said he was out of luck. So the guy bought a new Volvo on the spot! Glassy-eyed brand loyalty.
I should append to my comments: I feel that I was brainwashed, and I have observed brainwashing in my family regarding their undying and irrational love for Volvos.
I don't know that other people have been brainwashed into loving their Saturns, but I am speculating that the "different kind of car" etc. stuff contributes to it. My speculation may be completely wrong, for you and for other people. It's just speculation on my part, and that's that.
If you love your Saturn and are happy owning it, all the more power to you.
If you hate your Saturn, I'm sorry. If it makes you feel any better, you have company.
If you are shopping for an car, I urge you to consider all available options, at actual selling price (expect about 3-4% above invoice), before joining the Saturn family, or any other family for that matter. You will, I feel, be happier in the long run.
One comment regarding resale value: a key mistake I made was to compare resale prices to original MSRP. On this point Saturn compared favorably to other cars. However, it's misleading, because almost all other cars sold for less than the MSRP. When you discount the original MSRP, the advantage disappears. Case in point: I paid $17.5K before TTL for my Saturn SC2 in mid '94. Just over three years and about 50K miles later, I sold the thing for under half that, and the car was in excellent shape. Not terrible depreciation, but not outstanding by any means.
Good luck and happy motoring to all!
I don't know if some of you people are counting me as a saturn brainwashee, but I am planning to upgrade my ride to a grand prix GTP sometime soon. Looked at the new saturn LS, thought it was ok, but thought the GTP was more of my kid of car. Although my sl2 has been very good until now, and amazingly economical, I just want something bigger, faster, quiter, with more "stuff." I did not even consider another sl2--been there, done that. Beleive me, if my saturn had been an unreliable car, it would have been gone long ago, i've been fiending for a faster car for quite some time. Now, my saturn does go through a quart of oil every 1500 miles or so nowadays(90K miles), and I did have to replace warped brake rotors at 75K miles ( maybe i could have turned them.. ) BUT, it's never left me stranded or had to go back to the dealer for an unscheduled trip. My major issue with the car is wind and road noise, which i find to be excessive; otherwise i knew very well what i was getting.
dave
Perhaps the folks that have Saturn lemons feel betrayed because they thought it was a different kind of car and so violently turn against the marque, so thus you see such vehement posts.
There is no objective data about cars' repair histories, as far as I know. Perhaps someday we will have car repair tracking by VIN, so we can view really good data about repair histories.
My biggest beef is that Saturn knew about the engines' oil consumption and did nothing about it besides hide behind their recommendation that the oil be checked at every fill-up. If the company was indeed a different kind of company, why wouldn't they offer free oil changes every 3K miles with the best synthetic oils known to reduce oil consumption? At the very least, warn people that it happens so they know to check the oil at least every 1000 miles. Or change the oil pressure sensors so they are sensitive enough to warn about pressures low enough to cause engine destruction. Or fix the problem: Someone told me it was the valve seals and guides; someone else told me it was the rings. There are a lot of things they could have done, but they just hid their heads in the sand. Maybe they were too afraid of how they would look after their massive early life recalls.
The evasiveness is what bothers me the most. For example, I never did an oil change interval longer than the recommended 7.5K miles; most were around 3-4K miles. Yet Saturn told me the intervals should be no more than 3K miles. The reason they cited was that most vehicles are driven in "extreme driving conditions". First of all, I used mine for totally vanilla daily commutes of ~10 miles. No dust, no one-block driving, no towing. Second, if most vehicles are driven in "extreme driving conditions" why not make that the default oil change interval?!?
Had I been warned about it, I probably would be ambivalent about the car. I would have thought it was an okay car except it drinks oil. As it was, I assumed a brand new car wouldn't have excessive oil consumption. When I noted lower oil levels, I shrugged it off as a quirk and was surprised when the engine went ratatatatatabang. So now I think the marque is evil.
Evil. Saturn: an evil kind of car company.
Your thoughts, Saturn fans (and critics)?
I also took a ride in a 99 Grand Prix GT coupe. I was curious so I asked my friend if it had been reliable. He said, "Oh yeah its been great, although I did blow the water pump already". That is pathetic! A water pump should not fail within a year. But what disturbed me the most was how poorly put together it felt. Driving on a relatively smooth sand road, the chassis flexed noticeably and the dashboard shook, squeaked, popped, and rattled something terrible! The doors felt heavy yet closed with a tinny clunk. The leather was some of the poorest quality I have ever seen. It looked and felt more like vinyl than leather. I think GM still has some serious build quality issues and I would think twice before looking into one of their products.
That's so little it doesn't count? Or is Saturn being tough on trade-ins?
The techron equivalent has now been almost consumed (the tank is down to less than a 1/4), so that was not the solution. [Sorry, Dave] I have added oil on the advice of my mechanic(the car has only about 48K miles on it, low for a 95 SL2 but it is beginning to drink oil, it seems), and that was not the right anti-pinging solution either.
I will see my mechanic again and ask him to check it out some more. Maybe he will tell me to go to the higher octane gas.
sacre bleu: Well, I did like my car more than civic and corolla when i got mine in '96, and though i do still think the saturn drives better and is safer, the civic has gotten bigger since then, and the corolla is still probably tops in real reliability. Toyota always dominates that category, but I think they are dull to drive.
lngtongue:
Thanks, maybe a bit off topic though. I wonder if your grand prix opinion is as based in reality as your saab opinions?
dave
My 1985 truck has 96K on it and runs well. I'm thinking of having a powerflush. But it doesn't "ping", even with 87 octane gas, so maybe it doesn't need it.
Thanks.
dave
So, I wanted write about my Saturn experience. My wife and I bought a brand new 1993 SL1 in May of that year, just 10 days before our wedding. It was to be her car, I drove an IROC at the time. She was so proud of the Blue/Green Saturn, too (A big improvement over an '84 Omega). She drove it for the first 3-4 trouble-free years of its life and then we bought a '96 Grand AM GT for her which was a beautiful, but cheaply made car. However, it caused us absolutely no problems in 66,000 miles.
Anyway, I began driving the Saturn in '96 because I commute 30 miles to work and it is gets great mileage (as long as the A/C is off!). Now the car is seven years old and has 151,000 miles and is running great. I have never taken it to the dealership for their recommended maintenance. I think that it is too expensive. I've done most of the maintenance myself, or had it done at Firestone. The car has had a few items replaced, including a timing chain (done by the Saturn dealership), but most of the repairs were made at over 100,000 miles and we've had no problems in the last 30,000 miles. It does drink a little oil now, but even that has slowed since I bought an additive at Wal-Mart to slow oil consumption. I am planning to drive the car another 60,000 with God's help.
I suspect there are others who read this site routinely who keep quiet because they have nothing to complain about. If so, lets here some of your stories. Hopefully, I am not the only satisfied customer. I know Saturnboy is satisfied, even if he is a little balistic.
I think its great that Saturn split the difference with you on the replacement cost. Just make sure you check the oil at least once a week and you shouldn't have any problems.
My 2000 Saturn as well as the 94 never use any oil.
Good Luck