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LG: You capture all that I had been saying. That this is a minimal expectation from a $60K+ car when a car 75% cheaper has it standard... Not that it is a requirement for a luxury car. Not that MB cannot put one in their car as standard... Far from it.. But that MB chooses to put it in the trunk in MY2006 is plainly, imo, out-of tune with modern times.... Can they architect the S430 to have an in-dash CD changer or not ???? That is the question I'd like an answer to from an MB fan...
More pointedly, what exactly does the $80K purchase of an S430 get vs what I get for my $65K purchase of an LS430 ??
A car that people feel passionate about owning despite the lack of a CD Changer.
I am willing to wager that the upcoming LS will be just as disappointing as the new generation GS and IS!
Remember the thrill in these forums about the upcoming Lexus GS that will dethrone the BMW 5 series?
Remember the thrill in these forums about the new and exciting IS that will knock the BMW 3 series from its Benchmark status!
And now everyone is thrilled by the new LS that will show a thing or two about how a MB S series should really be!
I am no Nostradamus but I do sense upcoming disappointemnt in the air for quite a few Lexus fans!
Most of us are owners and repeat owners, not fans. I'd say the chance of disappointment is 1 in 20. I sense something very different - that being a car the Germans will be following and which will be setting the pace.
'Nuff said...
ljfx,
You make a great point! It is about owning the car and not being a brand fan! It all boils down to preferences in terms of ride, luxury, performance, handling , reliability or a CD changer!
But the difference between a MB S and a Lexus LS is that people are willing to pay 80k for the MB vs. 65k for the LS!
You may ask why the market favors paying more for the MB S?
Status and nothing else
MB is overall a superior car in terms of the prefernces I mentioned above
MB brand loyalty
Stupidity--spending more money on a car that is not worth it
We in this forum will not be able to determine what justifies the premium price of a Benz. But what cannot be debated is the fact that the market values the Benz far more highly in terms of dollars than a Lexus. And it is that value that is place on the Benz that proves its superiority!
you can do a bit better than that cant you!
I think the Lexus LS for the sake of a good debate deserves a better defense than the number of posts in a Edumunds forum!
Based on your criteria the Lexus GS and IS would have made mincemeat out of the BMW 3 and 5 series if you took solely into account the number of posts in the future vehicle discusssions of the IS and the 3 series.
Unfortunately that appears to be not the case!
But that declining price gap does not only reflect Lexus improvements. It also reflects the decline of perceived MB quality/reliability!
With new MB management there is a good probability of a turnaround and if you have not noticed almost every single MB press release focuses on renewing quality/reliability of their product line. If MB qualtiy/reliability increases then you can make a safe bet that the MB price premium will remain intact.
That 150K Lexus you mentioned will still be competing against a more expensive MB.
In other words expect the MB price premium to remain!
Like Len said, there are owners and their are fans...
Class, and NOTHING wrong with the LS-430. Also, the LS is much less - hard to argue with that, even though the dang steering wheel is as large as an 83 Cadillac's.....
Prices of the new MB S are increasing because MB is not as ruthless about cost cutting at the expense of quality as they have been in the past! Among their top goals now is to reduce warranty costs which should translate into increased future reliability!
You assume the MB S future will resemble the past! I think otherwise! As has been said before, time will tell!
You may ask why the market favors paying more for the MB S?
The assumption behind the question may be false. Very few people actually pay the $80k. A typical S class acquisition is done via lease. MB heavily subsidizes lease through unrealistic residues. An $80K S430 may have a lease residue of $55k, whereas in reality the car would have difficulty clearing $35k at auction after lease return! The missing $20k comes back to bite at MB finances three years later! A delayed pain is still pain; the car would have generated a total revenue of $60k (sans interest payment, which is also subsidized), or some $5k less than the competing Lexus, which does not subsidize leases.
Not true. It could simply mean offering less warranty coverage and be more exacting towards customers. It has happened before, like their free maintenance service.
You assume the MB S future will resemble the past! I think otherwise!
Given that none of us has a crystal ball, the past is our only guide to future. "This time it will be different" are some of the most famous last words of the gullibles.
Not really no, but it is distinctive and bold, something that can't be said of a lot of cars. You know what it is instantly, no copying or imitation of anything else on the road - I like that to a degree. Same thing with Land Rover and Jaguar imo, they're not always the best looking cars in each segment, but you know what they are.
Anyway Lexus is finally making some progress on the styling front....some people are going to prefer the looks of the 2007 LS over the 2007 S....well, maybe not someone with the moniker "merc1".
Well me of course not, but the 2007 LS does look a lot better than the current car and the Lexus IS is like *that* close to being a good looking car. Though it is marred by childish details - like the rear tailights for instance they physically stick out from the body, I'm like what the hell? But yes, Lexus is redesigning their way out of the lame design colum, but the GS remians a letdown to me. I did enjoy driving the GS430 at the taste event.
M
It is basically a term coined by RR. It means that the car glides along effortlessly, but with a sense of control, great power and authority.
M
Lots of questions there. Let me see, YES IMO a Benz drives better than a Lexus (at least in this segment we're talking about) because the ride is nearly the same in softness yet the S doesn't have the weak steering and keel over like the current LS. Now please explain to me why you think a car like a LS drives better than a high-end Toyota like the Avalon because its RWD. I seriously doubt any LS owner on this board has pushed their LS hard enough to be able to tell which wheels are doing the driving and/or to be able to explain the benifits of RWD when it comes to handling. You've got to be kidding me if you have to ask whether or not a 7-Series drives better than a regular car OAC. You should know the answer to that question. No, feeling every imperfection in the road isn't my definition of driving hence me liking the S-Class over the 7-Series and A8, but mushy steering and keeling over like the LS isn't my definition either.
M
If it isn't a requirement then what is the point of this silly conversation about CD changers? Why would Mercedes make such a change on a car so late in the production cycle? It obviously isn't bothering anyone that much seeing as how the car is still very popular in its 7th model year!
M
Really? The excitement on the 2007 LS board is surely more indicative of how the car will sell then right? The new S won't sell anything because the same people aren't posting over and over like on the 2007 LS board right?
Let me see if I have this right, just because Lexus doesn't inspire anything beyond raving about CD changers and driving along in total isolation what others feel for BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Jaguar and others Euros is nonesense. Yet when Lexus comes out with this V10 sports car and this rumored 400+hp LS600h you'll all of a sudden get passionate about Lexus because they'l truly have something worth getting passionate about right?
There is nothing passionate about a car that looks like a Jaguar XK or CLS or the power of an M5 or the sound of a V10 or the design of a car like the A8? Come you know you like some of these Euro cars when you aren't reading Consumer Reports.
M
That is just it, Edmunds isn't a pointer. There are virtually no E-Class owners in the Luxury Performance Sedans thread yet the E is a top seller in the class. I can't believe you and ljflx think that just because the same 10-15 people post over and over in the 2007 LS thread that means something magical for the LS and doomsday for the S-Class. Hype, hype, and more hype. Then you reach the real conclusion towards the end of your post. Right, the S is a known product compared to the LS which is trying to shed a dullard image.
More pointed is that even when known, the S is certainly not being described as the next thing to set the class on fire. No one who has seen the S has described it as a class setting, class defining car. Compare that to the LF-Sh unveiled last month in Tokyo.
Really? Like who? Please give the sources of this, not the usual hype. Who has seen the S-Class here? Much less who has driven it to know what it will do when it comes to market? So far the press has called the car an amazing achievement and things of that nature, but the U.S. press hasn't done their full road tests yet or any comparo, just short initial drives in Europe.
M
Yep. Didn't happen. All you'll get now is that the GS is selling so the mission has been accomplished, yet other Lexus owners have gone on the record and said that the GS didn't even come close to the 5-Series going by all the talk Lexus did before the GS came out.
Remember the thrill in these forums about the new and exciting IS that will knock the BMW 3 series from its Benchmark status!
Another one that isn't going to happen, or at least it hasn't so far. For one Lexus botched the powertrain on the IS350 and secondly the IS250 is absolutely hapless next to the 325i. Again, you'll get mounds of posts about it selling well and what not, so the goal has been met.
And now everyone is thrilled by the new LS that will show a thing or two about how a MB S series should really be!
Yep, Lexus will walk away with the segment in every way possible. No other car (especially the S-Class) will be able to make a sale or be superior in any way. This is the norm around here, Lexus taking over the world only to wind up being a part of it just like every other make.
Will the new LS make a splash? For sure. Will it put everyone else out of business? Heck naw.
M
This isn't totally correct. Mercedes dropped prices of the S-Class in 1999 (for the 2000 MY) because the previous car was seen as too big, overweight and too expensive in certain markets so they shifted direction. This had very little or nothing to do with Lexus. Lexus' LS wasn't even a factor back in 1999. That duller than dull 1995-2000 LS was barely even in S-Class price territory when the W140 S-Class was out and the 2000 S-Class with its price drop still wasn't near the price of a 1999 LS400.
Mercedes dropping prices across the board compared to just the S-Class, happened for 1994..that was in response to Lexus and market conditions in general. The 2000 S-Class was a radical departure compared to the previous tank-like S from 1992-1999.
M
TMC may be on the verge of becoming the world's #1 automaker, but Lexus has a long way to go before becoming the #1 luxury brand.
I think they'll be ok once everything they've got planned finally gets over here. I really don't think VW is serious enough about the U.S. market. They take their sweet time in getting products over here when they've been out in Europe for over a year. They need a cheaper base V6 Passat and some restructuring of the Passat's option packages and/or more stand alone options. Potential VW buyers are complaining about not being able to get a manual with the V6. Hello VW? VW buyers like "stick shifts". The Jetta needs a more powerful/refined base engine. Half of the Gallard's V10 my [non-permissible content removed]! It sure doesn't act or sound like it. There should 276hp "R36" versions of the Jetta, Golf and Passat. In the case of the Passat I'd turbocharge the V6 for 340hp. I don't know how they could do it with the current exchange rate, but they need to adjust prices badly. A Jetta can run over 30K now! I couldn't believe it.
Toyota becoming #1 is just a continuation of the long nightmare GM and Ford have been living with for years. I actually feel sorry for GM somewhat now, after years of bashing them. They're just too big with too many of the same models that simply don't move the game on in any way other than creative price incentives. I'm not worried about Ford, they've proven before that when they're backed into a corner they come out swinging. Now since they've got Volvo, Land Rover and Aston up and running maybe they can concentrate more on their core brand.
M
My 1999 came into service Nov 15, 1998, a full 7 years of operation today. It has 109K miles to show for it.
1) I've got a broken windshield that I cannot get a non-Lexus replacement for. Turns out no one makes the glass anymore, except one through Toyota. That stinks, cos its gonna cost me $700 to replace.
2) My right tail-lamp is out. Well, 'bout time too. Just went out, so I gotta check on cost. I hope it isn't much
3) My read-out says "Low washer fluid" but my washer fluid is not low. Lexus says its a bad electrical. Cost to diagnose and fix is $200. Seems like a lot for a bad fuse, imo.
4) BTW, I hope Lexus re-design the trunk lid to open all the way all the time, instead of the two-step one. Cos I've bumped my head a few times already, and it hurts. I know, clumsy me... But I gotta have something to complain about, right ?
Well, that's all the imperfections my car currently has. I am anxious to see the 2007 LS460, finally I can retire this baby and pass it on to my daughter. Trouble is she doesn't want the LS, so I am stuck... Get rid of it, or keep it ? What a problem to have, eh ? Anyone need a fairly well used but still reliable LS?
Merc1, I am sure you know the answer to this. A RWD is a better driving car than a FWD car, everyone knows that already, else *most* sport sedans/coupes will be FWD, eh ? Why not drive the LS in the sport-mode and then drive the new Avalon and tell us which drives better? Maybe you'd be surprised. Many look at the LS and think it drives as it looks. You'll be plenty surprised... The LS is quite nimble for a big car. Drives real well, and steering may be a tad numb but still responsive enough. In sport mode, you get a lot more road feel (than a typical LS), and the handling is even better, all for a big full-size luxury cruiser. There is hardly any major difference b/w the S and the LS in driving and road isolation.
Have you read the Nov C&D review on a short drive of the 2007 S500 ? Was it glowing ??? I'd say not. With a Maybach exterior, exaggerated rear wheel flares, and the BMW-interior, hmmm ! who knows how it will be received when it arrives here next spring ?
The LS430 isn't a sport coupe or sports sedan, or a sporty anything. What difference does RWD make in a car like a LS430 when handling isn't a priority? There aren't any hi-hp models based on the LS that would require rwd so? I've driven the LS430 more than once now in all its "modes" and it didn't drive like anything to me. Still mushy and nothing even close to being nimble (compared to what?). Saying it is nible for it's size really isn't saying anything when larger cars in the same segment are more nimble, like the A8 or 7-Series. I'm still waiting to hear what the advantage is of the LS being rwd compared to similarly plush and isolated Avalon or ES330 when none of them have any road feel or any sense of even being on the road.
There is hardly any major difference b/w the S and the LS in driving and road isolation.
Careful wording here. No there isn't any "major" difference in "road isolation" as you put, but there is a difference in their driving characteristics for sure. None of the German cars in this segment isolate you completely from the road or the sound of the engine like the LS does. Nor do they have the mushy steering either.
Have you read the Nov C&D review on a short drive of the 2007 S500 ? Was it glowing ??? I'd say not. With a Maybach exterior, exaggerated rear wheel flares, and the BMW-interior, hmmm ! who knows how it will be received when it arrives here next spring ?
Yeah I read it. I have to ask you the same question because the review wasn't negative in the least and it was pretty good for such a short drive:
Mercedes is hoping younger buyers will find the S-class's aggressive new shape appealing. To our eyes the fender flares are more sports car than über-Benz, but they do make room for the larger wheels that are mandatory on this type of car. This big Benz dynamically and stylistically straddles the line between the over-the-top-engineered and overweight early-'90s S-class and the svelte and stylish late-'90s version. It has enough advanced engineering and technology to make a robot blush, and it's all wrapped in stylish sheetmetal.
Source
Sounds like to me they haven't made their final judgement yet and there is much more to come. No need to reach for something that isn't there.
M
Ford is definitely in better shape, as I think one of their biggest problems was their dull as dishwater styling on products like the 500 and Freestyle. People seem to like the Fusion quite a bit. Mercury is somewhat of a mess, and Lincoln is an even bigger mess, but I think the Ford core brand will be fine.
I'm very curious to see what Volvo is going to come up with in the next few years. Ford seems to want Volvo to compete with brands like BMW and Mercedes, and to push Jag up into the Bentley stratosphere. I'm not sure the plan for Jag is such a hot idea, but a bunch of dramatically sportier V8 powered Volvos will definitely be interesting.
By making the system smaller, Toyota aims to slash the premium by half and expand its use to most of its mid-sized or larger cars, the Asahi said, without citing sources.
link title
That I agree.
Everytime I read a piece of boring crap trying to play down the best selling luxury brand, chances are it is from that same 1 person.
Everytime I read a piece of boring crap trying to play down the best selling luxury brand, chances are it is from that same 1 person.
Which global luxury brand leader are you referring to BMW or MB? In fact there seems to be more than 1 person that plays down these two best of the best luxury marques
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and had to do a double-take when I opened the side-profile view (the light blue car). If you get the same page/ad I had, there is an Infiniti M ad just above the thumbnails. I pulled the Lexus profile pic below the M profile pic and noticed an odd resemblance.
You forgot to say imho.
Funny, when anyone criticizes anything done by a German car company, that person is "downplaying" German achievement. But when a German carfan criticizes anything a Japanese company does, he is only spreading "truth".
I've never posted that this was an indicator of anything. But I am quite surprised that the S-class board is so dead with a new model around the corner. In fact the last post, which broke a long drought, was by someone at Edmunds raising the possibility that every S-class built since 1999 may have to be recalled. But I wouldn't discount what OAC is implying either. In 2000/2001 the new LS started to get a lot more posts as well before the 2001 intro, and the car was red hot exceeding 2001 sales goals by 40%. I think the interest in the 2007 car is far greater than the 2001 car and I fully expect this car will dominate this segment.
I dont think Killerbunny was referring to MB or BMW?
I like the G35 and cant wait for the new generation ! I dont discriminate a car based on nationality.
So what does that prove?
It may just mean the S drivers dont participate in these forums! The lack of attendance does not imply anything about the new S.
It is basically a term coined by RR. It means that the car glides along effortlessly, but with a sense of control, great power and authority.
It's funny how the eurofans nowadays make "riding on clouds" into some kind of perjorative, after Lexus started making cars that are better at offering a more quiet and serene environment for the riders.
Who said anything about downplaying the bestselling luxury brand this time around? I surely didn't. Did you actually read before you posted? Doesn't seem like it.
M
Just because one thread has a lot of activity and the others has little or no activity doesn't mean much in the grand scheme of things. There are hundreds of thousounds of buyers from all these luxury brands that don't even know about Edmunds' Town Hall.
The E-Class trounces the GS in sales month after month, yet the GS thread is much more popular here.
Just because a few people swoon over a new car and post over and over (and get duped into believing that they had an inside track from Japan) doesn't mean that a car who's thread isn't posting much won't be succesfull either.
How much further are we going to reach with this?
M
Why is it, then, that all the Lexus fans never bring this up while they are rambling incessantly about reliability? Funny how the Lexus has the least power of any car in the class, and gets almost 100 hp less than than the BMW, yet they get the same gas mileage.
Why don't the Lexus fans ever talk about this obvious component of luxury?
Doesn't anyone here remember the LS430 vs Q45 comparison a few years back? The LS430 beat the Q45 in the 0-60 test despite a 50 HP deficit. I don't know where this myth of Lexus cars being slow comes from...Even the LS430 can hit 0-60 in 5.8 seconds and have a top speed of 135 MPH (Electronically limited) The car can definitely go faster than that...My LS400 has done 135 MPH easily and had more to give!
SV
Agreed!
Funny how the Lexus has the least power of any car in the class
Why should I be surprised when a German carfan just arrogantly assumes that German cars perform best, without bothering to check the facts?
750i - 360hp, 360 lb-ft, 5.8 sec 0-60
LS430 - 278hp, 312 lb-ft, 5.9 sec
S430 - 275hp, 295 lb-ft, 6.6 sec
So, which brand is it again that has "the least power of any car in the class"?