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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Looking at your posts, obviously "PRESTIGE" is very important to you. Styling is important to you. Luxury appointments, easy-to-use technology, a top notch dealership experience, and "value" (bang for the buck) are not as important to you. That's fine, just not my priorities. But your priorities are just that - your personal priorities - not the only definition of "high end luxury marques", which is what we are talking about here.

    This is where the big disagreement is. That reads like the Europeans lack luxury appointments - totally false. Or that their dealers are so terrible or that "value" means cheaper. Value is whatever a person makes it out to be and secondly not all European car dealers are oh-so terrible.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Lexus enjoys better prestige now than it did 5, 10, 15 years ago. Thats one reason that LS sales have been on an upward path vs S sales over time. [Don't tell me the relative sales trend is due to price because MB was more expensive than Lexus 10 years ago too, yet managed to outsell Lexus even so. It no longer does in this country.]

    Don't tell you anything about price? Why not because its true? Well that an the fact that when Mercedes made it to #1 in sales they did it on the back of a SUV, a segment Lexus owes its sales dominance to. With the initial spike of the ML Mercedes would have never become #1 in sales. It was a one-time thing that will likely never happen again unless something out of the ordinary happens. The simple fact remains that up until now Lexus' sales dominance was based on SUVs, something that MB and other Euros missed. It wasn't because Lexus' cars were as a group some kind of bestsellers in every segment. For the 2 hits (LS/ES) they had (until this year) two duds (GS/IS).

    Actually Mercedes might be 5th this year behind Lexus, BMW, Cadillac and Acura. The latter two don't even begin to compete in the upper reaches on volume so I really couldn't care any less how this gets spun here. Acuras are not even in the same book, much less the same page. The can sell a jillion cars for under 45K.

    I'm surpised you think that Mercedes should be #1 in sales when all you have to do is look at where their model lineup is skewed (most at and over 50K), and you'll see that they have no business in sales race with brand in which all their heavy action is under 50K. If and when they pull their cars/quality up on reliability charts (i.e. start making a better car in your eyes) will you then still see them as some type of failure becasue they aren't #1 in sales?

    M
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    First, you did misread my post. I was reacting to those things (prestige and styling) that tagman said made the Lexus not in the same league as MB, BMW and Jag, and saying that these other factors apparently weren't "as important" to him.

    But you're right, we do disagree on this one. As someone who has bought from and used the service departments of Audi, MB, BMW and Lexus dealers (including the "Premier" level dealers of each), I am talking from substantial personal experience - but of course YMMV.

    And value? Well, that is a term that has substantial use in the world where I spend my professional life - the investment community - and it does have meaning there. Price (vs. some other factor, which can indeed vary) is always an element of value. If two things are exactly equal in all qualities, but one is less expensive than the other, which is the better value? Of course, "value" does not mean the same as "cheaper" unless all other things are equal. But conversely, the most expensive thing must be that much better to justify the the higher price if it is to be considered a better value. Not many other places in the "real world" but on this board do I think one would hear Mercedes described as a "value" leader; but you I guess would disagree...

    I also never said that "all European car dealers are oh-so terrible." While we posters will never all agree on these issues, I would bet that if the dealers in the US themselves were polled on who they believe are the best providers of customer service (and they couldn't vote for themselves), the competitors would name Lexus as their own service target (perhaps someone can point us to publicized surveys that show this). But I guess you would disagree...
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Well I don't think I misread anything. You're basically saying that the dealer/value/prestige vary in importance to different people. You value these and he values those.

    My point was that on this board (not by you in particular, sorry if you took it that way) these things are blown out of proportion especially when it comes to Mercedes. We're constantly reading why the type of loaner car should make the difference between purshasing a Lexus compared to a BMW or Audi or Mercedes. That is so lame imo.

    Yeah I would have to disagree about Mercedes being a value leader. Maybe back in the days when they were untouchable on more fronts, but not now.

    While we posters will never all agree on these issues, I would bet that if the dealers in the US themselves were polled on who they believe are the best providers of customer service (and they couldn't vote for themselves), the competitors would name Lexus as their own service target (perhaps someone can point us to publicized surveys that show this). But I guess you would disagree...

    No I wouldn't disagree on who provides the best service overall (Lexus) according to surveys, even such a survey you speak of, if it were ever done. However this dealer stuff is ridiculously blown out of proportion here. Just reading through the pages and pages of posts here one would think that Lexus' dealers are perfect in every way all the time and I can easily find posts that show they aren't. Likewise the theme here is that every Eurocar dealer is some awful little place with poor service and no clue as to how to treat a high-end customer, also bull.

    M
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    …the theme here is that every Eurocar dealer is some awful little place with poor service and no clue as to how to treat a high-end customer, also bull.

    I wish you could see what my BMW dealer has done with their brand new service department. It’s as big as a Costco warehouse, squeaky clean and replete with café. One might ask why they need something so big if the cars are reliable to begin with, but the thing that impressed me most is that there were hardly any customers milling around when I was there last month. It was like a ghost town. Also, they did some routine maintenance work for me that they could have charged me for but didn’t. I could have walked out with at least a $350 tab for oil and brake fluid change but didn’t.

    Also, there’s another BMW dealership that similarly upgraded their premises. I don’t know if this is universal trend for all BMW dealerships, but the direction in my neck of the woods is pretty clear. What with this type of service, the 4-year free maintenance and the signature driving qualities, it’s no wonder why BMWs are selling well.
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    I assume your free oil and brake fluid are because of the free maintenance policy? Or was the car outside the 4-year policy?

    Changing topics, on reliability personally I'd like to see Lexus "stick it to the competition" by changing their standard warranty from 4 years to 5 or even 6. Of course they won't because they have to consider the bottom line.

    And I'd like to see them "copy" BMW's free maintenance. Again, they won't. And they don't have to as they are gaining market share just fine.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I assume your free oil and brake fluid are because of the free maintenance policy? Or was the car outside the 4-year policy?

    I’m still under warranty and free maintenance. My model year gets free oil changes at 15K intervals and I believe brake fluid change at 30K miles. However, I have the oil changed at 7,500 mile intervals, so everything I asked for was given to me above and beyond what they cover. So far I have received two ADDITIONAL oil changes and a brake fluid change, free of charge.

    I probably could have hit them up for a couple of espressos, cannoli, sfogliatelle, and pignoli cookies but haven’t looked into that yet.

    ;-)
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    That does sound like a great dealer!
  • sv7887sv7887 Member Posts: 351
    Hi All,
    I don't understand this prestige argument at all...Isn't it obvious a nameplate that has existed for not even 20 yrs will NOT be considered more prestigious than a historical marque such as MB..I think we can all agree on that fact Prestige is a function of time.

    I do think MB is concerned with Lexus at least in the USA. I distinctly remember a Mercedes VP complaining in the early 90's about the LS400 in terms of pricing. I don't think Lexus builds a car that really would appeal to the Euro driver, perhaps with the IS as the only exception.

    Expensive cars and quality should NOT be mutually exclusive. Mercedes until recently consistently built high quality cars. With the exception of their SL class I don't think they ever were a "Style" leader 'back in the day'. Their move towards style seems to only have started with the 2001 S Class.

    If quality wasn't important, why has Jaguar spent countless $$$ trying to build up quality? I'm not sure you've noticed, but Jaguar is one of the most reliable Euro nameplates out there. As some have said here, Public perception does take time to catch up with reality. If you say Jaguar to the common public they will say "Unreliable" even though it isn't true anymore.

    I would agree Jaguar is on a higher level than Lexus in terms of "Name" But I'd venture the LS430 outclasses it in Reliability, Resale, Consumer Satisfaction, and Electronics. Japan still is the leader in Electronics..If you doubt this, have a look the Lexus Nav system. You'll
    see it outclasses the competition by a large amount. Besides, I still don't understand the Euro's fascination with pointless electronics..This isn't an Airbus!!! I think things have gone too far with this Drive by Wire nonsense. My LS430 has it, and I hate it.

    Where does the perception come from that Lexus cars are slow? The LS/GS/IS/SC all have good track numbers. I don't see anyone attempting to race a SUV so I'll leave them out of it. If you read the original reviews of the LS400 back in 1990, it had the best 0-60 times. Sure, it definitely will not outcorner a BMW, but it wasn't SUPPOSED to!!!!

    I've driven Jaguar cars..I can't say there is a big difference in ride between a Vandenplas and a LS. Handling is better in the XJ, but that is about it..I'd put the smoothness of ride in my 92 LS400 against anything. I've driven Mercedes cars too. They tend to be more nimbler but again not a "Huge" difference. The real difference was the BMW as expected..

    I'm inclined to agree with Merc on the whole dealer issue. I've had some really bad experiences with my Lexus dealer, the last experience almost made me sue them....I wasn't impressed with the Mercedes dealer either, but that may be a geographical thing. I haven't been in a BMW dealer, because it isn't my sort of car. Jaguar dealers were nice enough, but again, I have limited experience with them.

    SV
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    False again!

    MB's key focus is BMW

    Audi's key focus is BMW/MB

    And if I'm Lexus - I'm happy as hell about this and hope it stays that way. Because not focusing on a competitor like Lexus is blatantly stupid - in all three cases.

    In all honesty do you really think a young company that has blown past them (sales, quality, customer satisfaction, retained value, dealer service - and remember many who own Lexus dealers also own MB and other lux dealerships) in the largest and most profitable market in the world is not a key focus? Because if that's the case then they have managers who cannot see the future. That was certainly the case in 1990 and for the Germans sake I hope it isn't the same now.
  • zman5zman5 Member Posts: 3
    I would strongly disagree that prestige is a function of time. Consider Oldsmobile or Ford. How about Cadillac (in case you wish to point out that olds/ford are not premium brands). Prestige is more a function of cost than time. Whats more prestigious LS400 or MB / S-XXX? I would consider both equally prestigious and thats that. I'd go with a Lexus based on reliability any day. Just the fact that MB builds vehicles with poor reliability rating detracts from their status which by the way was built on reliability in the first place.
  • zman5zman5 Member Posts: 3
    You know what they say about death and taxes well, there is one more sure thing to add to the list . . . nothing is free. Your free oil changes (be they at 7,500 interval or 15,000 interval) are built into the price. The point is your BMW dealer made you feel special and you will remember these "Free" add ons far longer than the vehicle price you settled on. Next time you are in the market, you will be back at this dealership. If I were in their shoes, I would give you all of the espressos that you can hold down. Free of course.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    …not focusing on a competitor like Lexus is blatantly stupid…

    Indeed. I have no doubt in my mind that what BMW is doing with their maintenance programs and upgraded dealerships is a direct result of Lexus. Moral of the story as we all know—fierce competition is good for the consumer.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    There is an easy way to see if this is true or not. If there was no increase or nothing more than the normal increase in a BMW in the year this firts started then indeed it was a throw in as an incentives. I'm sure there's a BMW buyer here who would know that. Incentives like this are really a different form of marketing costs. In this case, rather than spend in the ad market the company saves the consumer money and it really is free. If it works it is a win-win. Apparently it works a lot better for BMW then it did for MB.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Well some things are freer than others. I got the car I wanted at $8K off MSRP, which is probably close to record for a bimmer purchase, it hasn’t cost me a dime in maintenance and most importantly, I love the car.

    As far as it being built into the price, I don’t look at it that way. BMWs were always expensive and at the same relative price levels as they are today. Plus, in the old days maintenance costs were outrageous. So competition like Lexus coming along was a real good thing. Anyway I would have bought it with or without the free maintenance, so it’s icing on the cake… I mean… anisette in the espresso.

    ;-)
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    Do you know I own both MB and BMW too beside Lexus? It is no big deal owning MB or BMW. My father has a RR too. Again, no big deal. For us, those so call marques are a dime a dozen in HK. We don't think they look that special or stir the emotion. Lexus is considered a lurxury brand even here in HK.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    I'm not sure of this but I think there was no extraordinary price increase when they initiated free maintenance. However, maybe they have been slowly increasing costs at a higher rate than everyone else? But even then, BMWs were always expensive, no less expensive in 1980 than they are today, I think. I bet the definitive answer is somewhere in the 5 or 3 series threads if you want to go digging. Maybe someone around here will know for sure, perhaps hpowders since he's had BMWs for quite some time. If not maybe I'll inquire in the other threads.
  • ctsangctsang Member Posts: 237
    There were companies that made prestigeous and beautiful cars in the old days. But they are not here anymore today. Lets hope MB stays on. I understand your ideas about the past, but this is a new era. If a company doesn't perform, they will be out of business.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    There was no extraordinary price increase when the policy of free maintenance was initiated.
    The engines are so amazing that the only maintenance I ever needed were oil changes every 15,000 miles on any of my bimmers since 1993. BMW knows this. They weren't about to offer free maintenance if they were going to lose big bucks on the deal.
    They even generously allow you to bring the car in more frequently for oil changes if you wish, but they try to keep that "a secret."
    Kudos to BMW for having the confidence to offer this deal. That says a lot for their vehicles' real-world reliability.

    Could you see Audi or Mercedes offering such a deal?
    They may have to, if they expect to compete.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    They can put any spin that makes them feel better, but straight to the bottom line:

    LONG TERM WARRANTY = GOOD & POSITIVE EXPERIENCE
    SHORT TERM WARRANTY = NOT AS GOOD

    INCLUDED MAINTENANCE = GOOD & POSITIVE EXPERIENCE
    NO INCLUDED MAINTENANCE = NOT AS GOOD

    Doesnt matter what brand it is. Good warranty and maintenance coverage simply make for a better overall experience. What is there to argue about on this?
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    1)In the boardrooms of MB, VW/Audi, BMW, Jaguar, which car maker do they talk about most ? I'd wager its Toyota/Lexus

    2)Because not focusing on a competitor like Lexus is blatantly stupid - in all three cases.

    My response was based on statement number one. As I mentioned in a prior post, I disagree with the statement.

    Any car company would be stupid in ignoring Lexus. Any luxury car maker is stupid in being oblivious about Hyundai's luxury marque next year!

    Any car company that ignores any competitor is stupid! I agree!

    So you say Toyota is not smug?? It ceases to amaze me that you think so!

    Maybe I am just a bit too thin skinned and sensitive but to me the ultimate form of smugness is when a competitor like Toyota talks about a fellow competitor like GM as a disability case that needs to be treated altruistically.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Designman - I'd bet this was just a credit to one expense budget and a debit to another. I don't think BMW raised prices to cover the cost. You can only do this by MSRP comparatives anyway as the rest is negotiation expertise or lease deals offered. If I were a BMW buyer I would not look at this as a cost of the car unless I knew for sure they raised prices an extra $700+ to cover it. Looked at differently this is also a smart thing to do. It ensures the maintenance income goes into the dealer network and adds to dealer profits. It's a different way of BMW compensating dealers. It's a win-win-win across the board if it works and if BMW leases a higher percentage of cars than it sells it ensures they get the treatment they want as maintenance and hence get the car back the way they wanted it serviced. The only loser is the local guy you may have serviced your car at instead of the dealership.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    Yes I'm saying they are not smug. You paint a picture off one statement that was probably the result of bad translation. I paint a picture by actions and past history. By that the Germans win this by 3 or 4 touchdowns and a bunch of field goals.

    We disagree - completely. No further discussion required on my part.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I am quite surprised that Lexus doesn't match BMW on the free maintenance deal.
    It would only come down to oil changes on most of their vehicles and it sure would go a long way to instilling a feeling of good will toward their customers.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    You paint a picture off one statement that was probably the result of bad translation

    By that the Germans win this by 3 or 4 touchdowns and a bunch of field goals.

    LOST IN TRANSLATION applies equally to those who are unable to use German-English dictionaries!
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    It is often mentioned here that we who frequent these forums are not the "typical" car buyers, and I totally agree. Did any of you happen to catch Tom and Ray on the NPR show "Car Talk" a couple of weeks ago when someone asked what they thought between getting a Jag, an MB or a BMW? Their response: Jags are pretty but unreliable, BMWs are hard to use with the iDrive, and MBs were the most reliable and trouble-free, so go with the MB.

    Just goes to point out how hard it is to change established perceptions, even with so-called "experts" (and boy, is that good news for MB). What planet have these guys been broadcasting from for the past 5-10 years?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I am no technical genius but I was amazed and quite pleasantly surprised at how easy the iDrive actually is after reading almost unanimous denigration.
    I can't imagine anyone over 9 years old having any major trouble with it.
    I would have to say the Car Talk guys were most likely parroting what they read about iDrive in CR and the auto mags.
    Those 2 guys who supposedly can take a car apart and put it back together having difficulty with a knob that clicks up, down, left and right and turns??
    Give me a break!!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    NPR badly needs our expertise!

    I think it's about time we should make our voices heard more publicly(hopefully without restraining orders).
  • bdr127bdr127 Member Posts: 950
    I am no technical genius but I was amazed and quite pleasantly surprised at how easy the iDrive actually is after reading almost unanimous denigration.
    I can't imagine anyone over 9 years old having any major trouble with it.
    I would have to say the Car Talk guys were most likely parroting what they read about iDrive in CR and the auto mags.
    Those 2 guys who supposedly can take a car apart and put it back together having difficulty with a knob that clicks up, down, left and right and turns??
    Give me a break!!

    It's my bet that they've never even driven any of those cars! :P They're probably still reading mags from 2002, as well...

    The 2002/2003 7-series' iDrive was a pain in the neck. However, the current iDrive is so easy to use. If uses a computer, then they can certainly pick up the iDrive pretty quickly.
  • saablcpsaablcp Member Posts: 195
    Within the laws of International trade the practice of "dumping"is very hard to prove.My understanding as a layman is that it occurs when any manufacturer brings it's product into a foreign market and deliberately sells the product at a loss to capture a larger share of the market Toyota had been accused of this when it began selling small pickup trucks in America.I would like to see an explanation of how a 1991 LS-400 could be priced at under $35,000 if in fact a new LS-430 is over $60,000.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    OK, you can go to the Lexus web site, for verification, but this definately indicates that Luxury, according to Lexus anyway, is an OPTION on the Lexus LS. You have to purchase THEIR version of Luxury as an OPTION.

    And, get this, it can be purchased in three flavors:

    There's the "Ultra Luxury Package", the "Custom Luxury Package", and the "Modern Luxury Package".

    Here's the "TRANSLATION" :

    LUXURY IS NOT A STANDARD INHERENT PART OF A LEXUS LS SEDAN, ACCORDING TO LEXUS!!!!!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Very interesting comment, which I agree with. Thoughts, Merc?

    "Mercedes-Benz. The German luxury automaker is dropping its highly controversial, Bosch-developed, brake-by-wire, Sensotronic Brake Control system from its E and CLS class cars by next summer. The system, which was the quintessential example of German engineering run amuck, was to enhance the Mercedes legacy as an automotive technology leader. Instead, it sent the brand careening down the slippery slope of recalls and customer dissatisfaction. Mercedes recalled a total of almost two million vehicles equipped with the system in a little less than 12 months between May of 2004 and March of 2005. Jens Meiners reported in Automotive News that a Mercedes insider was quoted as saying, "Statistically, (the Sensotronic Brake Control is) as good as our other braking systems and sometimes better. But we cannot get the doubts out of customers' heads." That's the classic Mercedes-Benz arrogant attitude for all to see and exactly why people are turning away from the brand in droves. Let's see, why don't we design a horribly complicated braking system that ultimately doesn't deliver enough improved performance to justify the cost and the effort? And then, let's make the system feel weird so our customers won't be comfortable with it. Not only that, let's screw it up so that we have to recall millions of them, damaging our quality reputation even more than it already has been in the last couple of years. And then finally, let's blame our customers for not "getting" the system and for just being stupid."

    http://www.autoextremist.com/page6.shtml#table
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    "That's the classic Mercedes-Benz arrogant attitude"

    Except in Dewey's world.
  • ljflxljflx Member Posts: 4,690
    The real price was more like $42K to $44K depending on options chosen. The $35K was equivalent to the $55K today for a car with no options (which, of course has never existed). Lexus was robot assembled from day one - hence low build cost.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Similar to Toyota, I think this MB situation was lost in translation ;)
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Or maybe BMW figures the car should hold up for the entire time of the *free* maintainance, especially since they are giving such a good deal on their leases. Then when the leases get turned in, and someone else buys the now high-milage car, the new owner has some maintainance to do, and they can recoup some of the costs.

    Long warranties and *freebies* should not be taken at face-value, it may be BOTH a strength and a weakness ! Hyundai wanted market share and marketed their car with the 10/100K warranty position. As Chrysler fell in market share, it also decided to offer the 7/70K warranty. Both of these examples differ on rationale for why they offered such a program. GM has one of the shortest warranties in the business. Some have speculated the rationale being that GM cars/trucks need to be fixed so often, the owners will simply trade them in sooner rather than later, so why bother offering a long warranty. Frequent turnover means more new cars/trucks to build and sell... May be a wise business approach....

    MB used to offer a free maintainance on their new cars. This was stopped about 1 year ago. Why ? I am not going to speculate, although it seems fairly obvious why they stopped the program. There was some rumor about BMWs that you don't want to own one out of warranty due to repair cost. Well, why not offer *freebie* to lure more buyers upfront. Let the shmuck who buys it used pay for the real cost of ownership. In general, however, the cost of repair on used luxury cars are high, what differs is the frequency of those repairs. And that is the real key variable... People who buy used always figure they are buying it cheaper than new, and they can absorb the cost of repairs which, overall, will remain cheaper than buying the car brand spanking new. Its not always true, but pyschologically, some feel this way, hence the popularity of the used luxury car market.

    Lexus may have such a strong fate in their products in or out of warranty that they'd be foolish to extend it. In fact many Lexus used-car customers agonize over buying extended warranties cos they think its a waste of money, since many of the cars and trucks are so reliable and built with such high quality. If you build them well, you should be able to stand by them... Why change a winning strategy, unless trouble stares you in the face. Despite the Hyundai/Chrsyler long warranty schemes, these have not caught on in the industry. Neither is BMW's free maintainance policy.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Please don't share this with anyone!
    Intercepted off the internet:
    BMW Headquarters, Munich, Germany: 4 year Warranty Division:
    Inter-office memo from Heinrich to Wolfgang:
    Achtung! Top Secret!
    Exhaustive testing of engine, body, pro-logic audio system and iDrive proves as we had hoped that breakdown of above will never occur before 1461 days.
    Therefore our idea of free maintenance will only include oil changes as we hoped.
    The gullible Americans won't even realize that we use the cheap synthetic oil which never rises in price.
    Any outflow of oil change expense per vehicle per year will be more than offset by the significant volume increase across all our lines by the gullible fools leasing and buying these ridiculously overpriced vehicles.

    Ultimate Driving Machine! I am still laughing about that one! Remember that ridiculous slogan, Wolfie?
    Sometimes I long for those carefree days when we were all driving those Volkswagens.

    Please destroy this e-mail immediately. I hope I wasn't online typing this too long.
    That's all we need if someone intercepts this.
    Ah! Nobody would believe this anyway, ha?
    It's crazy, ah?

    Have a profitable day.
    Heinrich
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Or maybe BMW figures the car should hold up for the entire time of the *free* maintainance, especially since they are giving such a good deal on their leases. Then when the leases get turned in, and someone else buys the now high-milage car, the new owner has some maintainance to do, and they can recoup some of the costs.

    Good work OAC! It appears you are the sole discoverer of Heinrich's notorious email! Keep up the good work because now we do know that BMW is one BIG CONSPIRACY !

    It was very smart of you to use the pseudonym hpowers to protect your true identity since I believe hitmen from Munich have already been sent to the USA to knock off the informer of Heinrich's letter.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    This whole argument over the "value" of free maintenance is of no "value". If it's just some oil changes, so what? From a marketing perspective, ANY manufacturer could give away free oil changes. But they DON'T! Why NOT then?

    The "VALUE" is not measured in "oil changes"!!!!!!!!!!!!

    It's a marketing appeal to the buyers that are perhaps apprehensive or nervous about their significant purchase. It gives them "peace of mind" and the "confidence" to know that the warranty and maintenance plan will take care of everything for a prescribed number of years. This is especially attractive to lease customers who prefer to lock-in and limit their cash flow. Of course it still has an attractive value to cash and finance purchasers as well.

    Is this a good thing? Of course. It opens the door just a little wider to invite customers into the experience of driving that manufacturer's car, without the "worries" that some of them have. THERE IS THE VALUE.

    Anybody here that thinks cars just sell themselves is out of touch with reality. People need MANY reasons to justify to themselves their choice of automobile. We've been over this before. Some need the assurance of a mainstream public consensus. Others need that Consumer Reports seal of approval. In other words, many rely on what OTHERS think, or what they've "heard" about a vehicle, even if it's not factual. Still othes are OK with taking an eccentric approach, even if the vast majority of the world thinks the car is a P.O.S., or is UGLY. Those folks "need to be different" somehow.

    It's still all about marketing in the case of the "free" maintenance, and it's a positive condition from ANY angle. To somehow twist some free service into a deeper, sinister admission of poor vehicle reliability by the upper management is stretching things WILDLY. Or to make it sound like some terrible trick to fool us all. C'mon now. As I pointed out, it's a marketing tool to gain confidence, peace of mind, to roll out the red carpet just a little further, and open the door a little wider to invite customers into the driving experience.

    How dare those evil deceptive managers give away free oil changes?!!!! Why, the nerve of them . . .

    TagMan
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    Good work OAC! It appears you are the sole discoverer of Heinrich's notorious email! Keep up the good work because now we do know that BMW is one BIG CONSPIRACY !

    It was very smart of you to use the pseudonym hpowers to protect your true identity since I believe hitmen from Munich have already been sent to the USA to knock off the informer of Heinrich's letter.

    I have no clue whatever you are trying to say here... Maybe you should direct this to hpowders instead of me pls ?
  • garyh1garyh1 Member Posts: 394
    Good post, TagMan. But I think you do have to differentiate between free maintenance (which you discussed eloquently) and extended term warranties, such as 10/100 or 7/70. There are different customer concerns being addressed, and different risks/costs involved for the manufacturer if they underestimate the incidence of future repairs. Heck, if I recall correctly, DC/MB has admitted that their recent earnings have been hurt by high warranty repair costs (including recalls) just within the standard warranty period.
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    It's still all about marketing in the case of the "free" maintenance, and it's a positive condition from ANY angle. To somehow twist some free service into a deeper, sinister admission of poor vehicle reliability by the upper management is stretching things WILDLY. Or to make it sound like some terrible trick to fool us all. C'mon now. As I pointed out, it's a marketing tool to gain confidence, peace of mind, to roll out the red carpet just a little further, and open the door a little wider to invite customers into the driving experience.

    I do agree to a point. To those who state that the BMW free maintainance is only oil changes. Here is what BMW states on their website:

    "Full Maintenance includes items that need replacement due to normal wear and tear, provided wear and tear exceeds BMW specifications. This includes items such as brake pads, brake rotors, and wiper blade inserts that are not covered by the original New Vehicle Limited Warranty.

    Any adjustments required due to normal operating conditions are also included."

    So its not just oil changes, is it ? Wear and tear items can cost quite a bunch... depending on one's driving habits and conditions and some luck/unlucky things that may happen. These would not be small change to BMW to absorb. MB found out pretty quickly how these costs could eat into their profits, and discontinued it.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "Changing topics, on reliability personally I'd like to see Lexus "stick it to the competition" by changing their standard warranty from 4 years to 5 or even 6. Of course they won't because they have to consider the bottom line."

    I'm not sure it would impact their bottom line much if they did, frankly.... and as you said, they don't need to.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    I have no clue whatever you are trying to say here... Maybe you should direct this to hpowders instead of me pls ?

    My point was to show how silly your conspiracy theory about BMW was! You claim that BMW engineers cars in order to break down after warranty expriation! What nonsense!

    Next time you make a claim back it up with facts! This is not a creative writing session!

    If BMWs had costly problems after warranty then BMW resale values would collpse! Who would want to buy a money trap? And I think we do know the truth about BMW resale values by now dont we?

    In fact check the costs for BMW extended warranties, they are not at all that hefty when compared to competitive marques. So much for your theory or should I say myth!
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    "Maybe I am just a bit too thin skinned and sensitive but to me the ultimate form of smugness is when a competitor like Toyota talks about a fellow competitor like GM as a disability case that needs to be treated altruistically."

    Toyota has been smug for decades, even arrogant. But in this case, it's justified. GM doesn't have a clue what to do with their problems, and if they did, they lack the power to do it. That elephant is just way to fat to tapdance anymore.

    Every luxury marque, IMO, is chasing BMW right now. Every base marque is chasing Toyota and Honda. That may change, but nobody is chasing GM or even Ford anymore. Since I was born, nobody chased Chrysler. That's why the UAW never threw a strike on Chrysler. Who cared?
  • oacoac Member Posts: 1,594
    My point was to show how silly your conspiracy theory about BMW was! You claim that BMW engineers cars in order to break down after warranty expriation! What nonsense!

    Your statement is bogus and fictional! Next time you make a claim back it up with facts! This is not a creative writing session!

    Why so combative a tone ? Maybe you haven't noticed this, dewey, I had stopped responding to any post from you. Why ? Bcos I believe you like to argue for the sake of arguing. Just not worth my time... You are free to read whatever insinuation or innuendo you like to my post even when I make nothing even remotely close to whatever you see in it. If you see conspiracy theory in my post, so be it... why should I dissuade your mind from seeing what you'd like to see ?
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Heh! Heh!
    Using my name as a pseudonym eh?
    The plot thickens. ;)
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Yup! Some folks love playing devil's advocate no matter what!
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Any successful car company may appear arrogant!

    That is why all German luxury marques appear arrogant including MB. MB sales have increased quite nicely these past few decades despite the claims of some forum members.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    The point is BMW has courageously put their reputation on the line by offering free maintenance.
    This gesture is a tremendous vote of confidence in the quality of their vehicles.
    They stepped up to the plate when nobody else would.
    In doing this, they show serious movement in alleviating the perception that BMW's have serious reliability problems
    This makes me feel very good as a BMW consumer even though since 1993, I have never had any trouble with any of my 3 BMW's.

    Why doesn't Mercedes step up to the plate in a similar way?
    Because in MB's case such an offer would bankrupt the company IMHO!
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