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Sounds like none since Toyota has offered this feature on home market Toyotas for a few years now and it hasn't shown up on anywhere else, not even on other JDM cars that I know of.
M
They share nearly identical rear-end designs:
Can you even tell which is which without looking at the obvious extra length of the LS460L?
The same interior design:
Again, the Lexus' interior design is nothing more than a grander Toyota with more buttons/features.
Here are the links for both cars. They look exactly alike in nearly every way except for the front end grille treatment! Check out the last pic for the Toyota Camry's interior. Lexus grade for sure, too bad it looks so similar.
2007 Camry
2007 LS460
Wow just as the LS460 tries to escape its "big Camry" stigma, Toyota goes and re-designs both cars with nearly identical styling cues! What does this do to all the L-Finesse talk? I thought Toyota had goofed when the gave the Camry Solara coupe the same look as the SC430, but this is ridiculous. I can't wait to read the denials (excuses) about this one, should be great reading!
Forget looking like a 7-Series BMW, the LS460 is nothing more than a giant Camry with an idential booty and very similar sides, with a prettier (how could it not be compared to this new Camry, double yuck!) grille and lights.
So much for the exclusivity argument and the belief that Toyota and Lexus have totally seperate design studios. Obviously someone walked down the hall to see what the other studio was doing!
Prestige? Out the window when it comes to looking unique, and this was supposed to be a good looking, Lexus-specific design? NOT!
Long live the Giant Toyota!
M
BTW, I'm really curious about this "copying" hypothesis some europhiles are fond of throwing around. What exactly is the objective criteria here? If acquiring an in-house turner AMG division is not "copying" BMW's M market success because AMG cars are automatic-only and have more torque; yet Lexus IS350 is judged "copying" BMW's 3 despite offering automatic-only and have more horsepower and far superior interior integration. . . what gives?
IMHO, the reality of the matter is that carmakers have had a long history of improving upon each other's innovations, taking the industry to new heights even as they attempt to wrestle market share from each other. . . much to the benefit of us consumers.
Scott's 50% number was very much pulled out of thin air. Look at this article:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20050410/news_1b10leasing.html
It cites BMW dealership number at roughly 70%. That was early April 2005, before the flurry of subsidized lease deals came out late in the year. I'd be very surprised if less than 75% (if not 90%) of MB acquired in December were leased. The heavily subsidized leases probably single-handedly accounted for the dramatic sales rise MB enjoyed in December. $299/mo for a C sedan with V6, that's just bloody incredible (for anyone never had a previous experience with recent vintage MB anyway); the 4-cyl C hatch cost more than $400/mo half a decade ago, when the banks were doing the leases not the manufacturer's captive finance arms doing it like now.
The S-Class may have the wheel arches from various cars, but not even you can spin this around with those pics staring you in the face. The S-Class doesn't look like a Ford Focus overall, like the LS does a Camry. I love it! The only response is about Mercedes, not anything to refute that the LS460 (the next coming of the automobile according to the Lexusfolks here) looks like Xerox copy of a Camry!
This LS/Camry relationship rebuts all that nonsense about L-Finesse and Lexus having their own design studio separate from Toyota. More importantly it eradicates the argument from Lexusfans about how Mercedes/BMW/Audi makes all their cars look alike is some terrible, brand devaluing practice. Lexus does the same thing, but not only Lexus-branded vehicles, but with mere "Toyotas". Hilarious!
BTW, I'm really curious about this "copying" hypothesis some Europhiles are fond of throwing around. What exactly is the objective criteria here? If acquiring an in-house turner AMG division is not "copying" BMW's M market success because AMG cars are automatic-only and have more torque; yet Lexus IS350 is judged "copying" BMW's 3 despite offering automatic-only and have more horsepower and far superior interior integration. . . what gives?
STYLING is the "criteria". AMG vehicles don't look like Motorsport vehicles! A CLS doesn't look like an M5. A SLK55 doesn't look like an M Roadster and so on.
Apart from the tuner cars an Audi doesn't look like a Jaguar, a Mercedes doesn't look like an Audi, an Audi doesn't look like BMW. Lexus on the other hand made a point of making their best car look just like a Mercedes S-Class for all these years before just now switching to the 7-Series-mated-with-a-Camry look!
I don't see why this is so hard to understand. Each European car has their own design language, (for better or worse) while Lexus gets their from other brand's design studios.
I love it that you can't refute that the LS460 looks like a Camry! The only rebuttal is that "others do it to".
IMHO, the reality of the matter is that carmakers have had a long history of improving upon each other's innovations, taking the industry to new heights even as they attempt to wrestle market share from each other. . . much to the benefit of us consumers
All true, but with Toyota they'll take your styling too, or they'll just size up one of their family cars and sell it is a new design direction to the faithful. What a brilliant concept!
Lastly, the AMG and M and why Mercedes bought AMG is beyond tired at this point. They bought AMG because they were already making great modified versions of their cars and AMG was started by former Mercedes engineers it was a natural fit. Strictly as a business proposition I'm sure they looked at having a tuning arm like BMW's M, but in concept the cars couldn't be more different. The CARS (which is what we were talking about) are NOT copies.
M
Unless you have something that shows the breakout for each brand and what the percentage is for buying vs leasing you're really just wasting time and space with all the dealership testimonials.
M
The difference between LS and Camry in the rear-end pictures that you provided is much more pronounced than the difference the front quarter view of the new S-class vs. Ford Focus. The reason why I did not bother with refuting your assertion about the similarity was quite simple: the difference in the lines are quite pronounced . . . and more to the point, belittling Lexus based on alleged styling similarity to a less expensive car is a futile exercise, considering what the new S-class looks like . . . it's simply not a path an MB-lover would want to go down on.
STYLING is the "criteria".
Interesting. . . the last time I checked, these are carmakers, not coach builders. Also, I don't exactly recall IS ever looking like 3 series anyway, so why did you accuse IS of copying 3?
I never thought German engineering is all about styling . . . how about some substance? like MB "copying" everyone else going DOHC with variable valve-timing after misleading their faithful with obsolete SOHC tri-valve for nearly a decade? If you are really hung up on styling, how about BMW "copying" those kidney grills from Pontiac (Pontiac had them when BMW was building motorcycles and tricycles). Not that I'd want to seriously advance those claims, mind you, as they'd be just as pointless as accusing Lexus of "copying" others. If it is not patented or copyrighted, it's free game; that's been the case in the automobil industry since the very beginning.
Before MB acquisition, AMG was about as relevent as Brabus (which is to say, it is quite irrelevent in the grand scheme of things). MB's buy-out and subsequent investment into this in-house tuner division was very much a chapter taken from BMW's sucess with M division, just like Audi's expansion of S, Ford's SVT, Cadillac's V . . . etc.. It's simply fair game, market sucess finds competitors . . . just as, I'm sure, Toyota's success with hybrids will find many "copiers" too (Porsche, BMW, MB and GM are all on the record of planning on it). There is nothing insideous or shameful about it. That's how the industry works.
It's called random sampling. . . there is no reason to believe people in that particular area is more fond of leasing than people in other regions. Buyers every where is faced with the same set of math: some manufacturers are offering far superior deals through leasing than buying; similar deals not being offered by banks is a good indication of book cooking.
Furthermore what in the world does one month, when you know they're pushing lease dealer more heavily, have to do with what normally goes on all year?
December happens to be the biggest sales month, by far, for MB, perhaps? You are more than welcome to dig up some numbers to support Scott's guestimate of 50/50; my guess is 70/30 if not more lop-sided, and I have the dealership data to back me up.
Lexus' "December to Remember" helped them sell over 35K cars in one month! Let me guess most of those buyers bought with cash right?
Whether they pay cash is not nearly as relevent as whether they take out loan vs. lease. A loan makes the sales price relevent; a lease makes the nominal sales price irrelevent because actual payment is heavily influenced by residual (which the manufacturer's captive finance arm will have to eat down the road). The lease price for ES330 in December was $420/mo. That compared to $299/mo for C230, $369/mo for 325i, $439 for 525i and $480/mo for E320. That should give us some idea how much these cars are really worth in the market place.
Yeah ok, keep believing that. Pictures don't lie and you can't uh.....tell me otherwise looking at them. Funny how you are able to see the different pronounced difference between two cars by the same company, but you don't any difference between a Ford and a Mercedes? The truth about the LS460 must really hurt to have to come up with something like that.
Interesting. . . the last time I checked, these are carmakers, not coach builders. Also, I don't exactly recall IS ever looking like 3 series anyway, so why did you accuse IS of copying 3?
I can't use the word "spin" but what do you call this? Honestly, I mentioned the LS and how it always strived to look like the S-Class up until now and you come back with a comparison about the 3-Series and the IS? That speaks for itself. Dodging the issue we'll call it.
I never thought German engineering is all about styling . . . how about some substance? like MB "copying" everyone else going DOHC with variable valve-timing after misleading their faithful with obsolete SOHC tri-valve for nearly a decade?
Gee, I didn't think you could copy something that you did previously. That’s a new (ridiculous) one on me. Who said that "German Engineering" was all styling? Where did anyone ever say this? You asked what the "criteria" was for calling something a "copy" and you got "German engineering is about styling" from that? Ok.
If you are really hung up on styling, how about BMW "copying" those kidney grills from Pontiac (Pontiac had them when BMW was building motorcycles and tricycles).
Oh believe me, BMW has taken their share of flack about this very thing. Difference is BMW and Pontiac aren't direct competitors and no one is going to confuse the two like one could confuse the Lexus LS430 for W140 S-Class.
There is a big difference between two cars looking similar by coincidence...especially when those cars aren't competitors vs. Lexus coping nearly entire bodies in white of previous Mercedes designs. I know you know the difference, but you choose to make excuse about it being an industry-wide trend when it is anything but for direct competitors to copy each other so closely in design (not features).
If it is not patented or copyrighted, it's free game; that's been the case in the automobile industry since the very beginning.
Apparently. Toyota obviously lives by this precept.
Before MB acquisition, AMG was about as relevant as Brabus (which is to say, it is quite irrelevant in the grand scheme of things). MB's buy-out and subsequent investment into this in-house tuner division was very much a chapter taken from BMW's success with M division, just like Audi's expansion of S, Ford's SVT, Cadillac's V . . . etc.. It's simply fair game, market success finds competitors . . . just as, I'm sure, Toyota's success with hybrids will find many "copiers" too (Porsche, BMW, MB and GM are all on the record of planning on it). There is nothing insidious or shameful about it. That's how the industry works.
Again, I just stated that this from a business point of view is most likely correct, but we were talking about cars...you know the things they build? The fact remains that BMW's Motorsport division and Mercedes' AMG don't build copies of each others CARS, which was my point. You brought all this largely irrelevant stuff about AMG and M to begin with!
It most certainly is something “insidious and shameful” making a flagship car such a blatant copy of a competitor’s car for years and years! It makes the brand seem like a big wannabe not to mention cheap.
For the last time I'm talking about design/styling, not technology/engines/peformance. Styling and design doesn't have to be copied in order to compete!
M
I don't know what the ratio is overall for the brands which is why I asked for the data since everyone here (not just you) seems to know what the ratio is.
Random sampling? Yeah we have a lot of that going on here for the purpose of painting the worst possible picture of the opposing brand.
M
What are you saying? That cars from the same company should look alike? I thought you were decrying two products from Toyota/Lexus look alike . . . what gives? I will ignore the sacastic venom in your post, and try to respond with a straight face: the rear ends of Camry and LS460 are actually very different:
1. the tail light lenses have completely different shapes
2. Camry has wide L-shaped clear lenses, whereas LS has thin lines . . . how more different can they get?
3. LS trunk line side creases go up whereas that of the Cambry go downward
4. trunk lid chrome on the LS, absent on the Camry
5. bumper-integrated dual exhaust on LS, absent on Camry
6. rear roof antenna vs. rear-window diversity antenna
7. shape and proportion of the license plate recense area; one is much more flat than the other
8. wrap-around rear bumper outline
9. center brake light, LS has it on the roof, and Camry has it at the bottom of the rear window
Frankly, I can't see how anyone can confuse the two. Now for comparison, get the rear view of current E class vs. that of the Accord:
1. same location and shape for center braking light
2. similarly shaped triangular side real clusers
3. similar trunk lid shape and chrome
The front quarter view of S class was even more uncannily similar to Focus. Would I care about either similarities, if I were in the market for an E or S? Probably not, but if you are really into styling uniqueness, you may want to know . . .
Difference is BMW and Pontiac aren't direct competitors and no one is going to confuse the two like one could confuse the Lexus LS430 for W140 S-Class.
Considering Pontiac being the sporting brand of GM, a case can actually be made that much of Pontiac business was killed off by younsters flocking to BMW out of college. LS430 was much less angular than W140. Besides, W140 was no longer being made or sold when LS430. LS430 was simply making cars in the image of traditional luxury car; frankly, I think it looks more like half way between Caddy Deville and Seville, with a dash of rounder lines of Lincoln tossed in; the three are certainly much more relevent than the angular designs of W140 with its musty 80's boxy lines.
but for direct competitors to copy each other so closely in design (not features).
That must be why S-class interior looks like it's taken out of a 7 series.
Again, I just stated that this from a business point of view is most likely correct, but we were talking about cars... You brought all this largely irrelevant stuff about AMG and M to begin with!
It was brought up in response to your accusation that Lexus IS was a copy of BMW 3. The two cases are so similar it's not even funny (following successful business models from BMW but offering cars that are different from BMW's but compete in the roughly same market segment). I want to know exactly how you came to the conclusion that IS was copying 3 but AMG was not copying M. What are the objective criteria? Obviously not styling like you claimed earlier.
Random sampling as the technical term in statistics, not "random noise" as you might be thinking of. The sampling was done by the news organization, not me; and the article featured a proud BMW X3 owner, so it was not exactly anti-BMW.
We actually have the lease prices for the various cars . . . so unless someone can make the point that Lexus was subsidizing loans much more than leases, we can safety use the lease prices for comparison purpose.
1. the tail light lenses have completely different shapes
2. Camry has wide L-shaped clear lenses, whereas LS has thin lines . . . how more different can they get?
3. LS trunk line side creases go up whereas that of the Cambry go downward
4. trunk lid chrome on the LS, absent on the Camry
5. bumper-integrated dual exhaust on LS, absent on Camry
6. rear roof antenna vs. rear-window diversity antenna
7. shape and proportion of the license plate recense area; one is much more flat than the other
8. wrap-around rear bumper outline
9. center brake light, LS has it on the roof, and Camry has it at the bottom of the rear window
Yet at the end of all that, you still get to very similar looking cars! You shouldn't have to go over the details with fine tooth comb to be able to see and/or point out the differences. The taillight lenses and the shape of the license plate holders? Yet their rears look nearly identical!
4. trunk lid chrome on the LS, absent on the Camry
This one I find particularly interesting. So they added some chrome to the LS460. Really unique.
All of those things are pointless when you see the two cars together and most people aren't going (and shouldn't have to) look at all that to tell the difference between a Lexus flagship and Camry.
That must be why S-class interior looks like it's taken out of a 7 series.
Can't argue with that one, the vents and postion of the comand controller are straight lift-outs of the 7-Series.
You can forget trying to every convince me that the LS430 didn't look like a copy of the W140 S-Class. Totally ridiculous to even argue that one.
It was brought up in response to your accusation that Lexus IS was a copy of BMW 3. The two cases are so similar it's not even funny (following successful business models from BMW but offering cars that are different from BMW's but compete in the roughly same market segment). I want to know exactly how you came to the conclusion that IS was copying 3 but AMG was not copying M. What are the objective criteria? Obviously not styling like you claimed earlier.
:confuse: Makes no sense to me. What does a 3-Series and IS350 have to do with AMG and Motorsport? Nothing.
M
7's do drop like an anvil on Jupiter .. but $26..?? .... I'd want to be doing some research on that dude, thats about $8 grand back of book even with the tall smiles - lets hope he has a CPO ..l.o.l...
Terry.
You are probably the only one drawing that conclusion. The two rear ends are so dissimilar, it's not even funny. Not a single part of the two rear ends are the same or similar, and the two have different general shapes, yet you claim they look the same. Go comapare E class and Accord, and see similarity means.
Makes no sense to me. What does a 3-Series and IS350 have to do with AMG and Motorsport? Nothing.
I will ask again, by what objective criteria did you come to the conclusion that IS350 was "copying" 3 but AMG was not "copying" M?
I honestly don't see how you could say these two rear ends are "so disimilar" when they're nearly identical except for some very, very minor details. Not a single part of these are similar? I don't see how you can say that. I see a relation between the S-Class' fender arches and other cars, but you don't see the obvious here?
I will ask again, by what objective criteria did you come to the conclusion that IS350 was "copying" 3 but AMG was not "copying" M?
Mercedes didn't spout off about BMW when they purchased AMG nor do they try to mold their AMG vehicles in same vein as BMW's M. Thats the difference. Lexus can't issue press release without mentioning BMW and even the IS' brochure is ridiculously and shamelessly wannabe German in every way possible. The uneducated would think the IS is a German car!
AMG already existed and wasn't formed for the sole purpose of competing with BMW, like the IS was.
M
Thats kinda true and kinda not ...
$299 was for a base model ... put some options on it and it runs about $450 (plus tax) a month with in and around $3ish down .... no money down.? .. in and around the $550ish zipcode (plus tax) .... but the Ad does get people in the stores and people bump themselves up in payment ...
Terry.
then they will start, the lexus simply doesnt have the IT factor, well, from my point of view i see it glowing with it, and certainly others do as they just waves at me and say nice things when i pass by with my SC430, MB, BM sure they have a factor tooo, i will call it Sh..t factor, if you want a MB, you should study mechanics, same goes with the iMad car.
you know whats funny in this, this BM excutives, they just make me laught, nice to hear they are not afraid of lexus being in japan, lexus intro their new LS, its nice to hear that, becoz there is one rule in life and thats it, NEVER TELL YOUR ENEMY THAT YOU ARE AFRAID FROM HIM!! that why they keep saying infiniti and bla bla bla, but in fact what they are working for is how to solve this lexus phenomena, its hard, but i say if your mother is toyota, you wont get lost, and thats what happening,
i remember in 2000 NAIAS, when they intro the new LS430, one of the lexus excu. said, this is an end of cost cutting for lexus, he said previously we were in era of endaka, but they now are gathering funds, and R&D just for lexus sake, what BM can do against this rising wave, they can so they go and hide their empty heads by saying no one wants to buy a lexus.
you know whats funny, that i see ppl day by day just buying lexus, 2 of my good friends were BM fans, they had BM, they changed it for a lexus,
I know someone that sold her audio A8L becoz she couldnt stand how it rides compared to her x lexus, and she went and bought another LS430. she was told buy Audi, but after being in it she sold it for 1/2 the purchased price for a lexus, thats true. lexus is growing in ppl, and thats what Germans are afraid from.
the crazy talk about camry and so is just useless, this merc1 is critizing some 180 IQ Japanese engineers building the empire of toyota and lexus by saying the camry looks like LS, well let me tell you, you said the same about LS being the same as previous S class and it still sells like rock, concerning the camry thing i do want to reply you, i say god knows what they charged this LS460 with, they revealed nothing and we are shocked, want to see the look on europhiles and those BM excu. when they announce the full spec.
one nice point Mr. Press said, "If you like how it looks, wait until you say whats the safety and technological innovation it has"
and we are waiting,
BM 7, have 2 yrs life span with no sales, but they will redo it and they should have some techno in it, but the disaster is the new S!! its just got on sales and i read every review about it, it has nothing apart from the IR light, that was tested and found to have less range than normal beam!! and plz dont let me start about the auto brake that shutter their tested vehicle in front of live TV!! lol, this is the beginnning of the end, I read C&D review about the S550, go and see what they wrote,
its just amazing to get a 380 HP from a 4.6L engine, just amazing, MB have 382 HP from 5.5L (1 L more) and BM 360 from 5 L, please dont compare these trash engines with the lexy! and dont let me start on the tranny too! lol
this aint working, you europhiles have to learn, that lexus will outdo your loved cars, this is the cycle of life, one falls, one rise.
last point here, about why LS out sells 7 and S, not becoz its cheaper, becoz it better, and thats what C&D said, they gave the 2004 LS on top of BM and MB, in fact it was like this if you dont remember,
1. LS430
2. Jag XJ
3. BM 7
4. who cares :P
so even jag was on top of MB and BM, you know why, becoz Jag improved their quality (look at JD) and they simplified their NAV by using the touch screen, which by the way has the same interface as the lexus (i tested it, and same goes for the new range rover) they all took the touch screen nav from lexus, and a funny note here that one journalist asked a BM excu. he said: why you went for iMad, which is much complicated, and in the same time lexus has the touch screen that is much simpler and easier to use, he said becoz lexus doesnt have the same spec, BM has more options, well, i want to see how the new LS460 do with the touch screen and how 7 series has more options!!
please go and read what they said about MB COMAND SYSTEM!!
THIS IS WHAT THEY SAID:
"We’re not gonna launch into a red-faced rant about the complicated COMAND system. For one thing, we don’t have enough pages. But it does strike us as risky to force the average S-class owner—he is, after all, 61 years old—to corral the cognitive courage necessary to wend his way, via an aluminum mouse, through approximately as many computer programs as are required to launch an ICBM from the USS Alaska. To summon music, for instance, you must:
a. Tilt the mouse forward to get to the top of the computer screen’s main menu.
b. Twist the mouse left or right to place the cursor on “Audio.”
c. Push the mouse straight down to say, “Yes, I do want to view the audio menu.”
d. Repeatedly tilt the mouse backward to toggle through your options: FM, AM, Satellite Radio, CD, DVD, MP3, or Audio Off.
e. Poke the mouse straight down to select the mode you desire.
f. Twirl the mouse left or right, now that an FM radio dial has magically appeared, to advance from channel to channel. (Note: You’re in seek mode only. If you wish to listen to weak stations, prepare to start all over again.)
g. Direct your attention away from the computer and away from the mouse and to the top-right spoke of the steering wheel, where a five-function rubber pad the size of a silver dollar will allow you to hear the station you’ve so diligently pursued.
h. Should that prove too complex, direct your attention to a small knurled wheel on the passenger side of the center console, where volume can alternately be adjusted.
Up, down, sideways. Twist, turn, poke. Hands for some functions, fingers for others, eyes continuously scanning the steering wheel, dash, screen, and center console. Exactly where is the radio? It’s everywhere. And nowhere. Can the COMAND system be mastered? Of course. Just not today."
HAHAHA thats for you to understand, that just to change the radio, imagine how many accident will happen becoz some MB owner wanted to change station while driving, hmm that and intersting feature, why dont they have an anti-radio accident maker to prevent this from happening!! this is german nonsense!
and imagine, how hard to get to the OPTIONS that the COMAND SYSTEM HAS!! hmm, it like this:
1. driv
1. drive your car to the next dealer, use the advanced COMAND SYSTEM to search for nearest dealer, to do that do as following:
while driving please move the mouse to you far left, then 2 times left until you go to submenu of the nav, then please push it forward and search down until you find dealers, then please dont be careful while driving, then use the mouse to get down and then push it to select options then in optiones go down to nearest dealer, the VIOLA!!
lol, i say ask someone in the street easier and less dangerous!!
oh about that OPTIONS thing,
2. after reachin the dealer, as someone to help you (IF YOU FIND ANY) then beg them to help you how to use ur car, then you will understand that they dont know how to use the car they sell, so throw the key in their faces and leave the dealer on foot :P
THATS THE HIGH TECH OF MB AND BM,
The era of Lexus has started
Lexusi
I'm no technician but the photos don't lie. You folks who try and spin this with your flowery prose cannot obscure the plain and simple fact that when you buy the new LS, you are purchasing the top of the line Camry.
I know I would be quite annoyed if I was thinking of purchasing the new LS for $65k+ and to my dismay and disgust found it to be an almost carbon copy of the Camry style-wise.
But hey, that's just me.
That is whole lot different from a Camry Solara looking like a SC430 and a LS460 looking like a Camry.
Both gorgeous by the way, unlike some of Toyota/Lexus' finer products!
Furthermore, ALL of Lexus' sedan have the same exact look just Mercedes/BMW/Audi and the rest so I don't see what point of that exercise was? Lexus is no different now, which isn't a problem to me, never has been for one Audi/BMW/MB to look like another MB/BMW/Audi, but for a Lexus to look like a Toyota after all this L-Finesse talk from Lexus execs it unacceptable!
M
Yeah this was a charge leveled at Mercedes for years because the S-Class looked just like a C-Class, but now the tables have turned and all the Lexi look just alike from top to bottom, plus there are some Toyotas thrown in with similar styling for good measure. I love the "Mercedes does it too" stance and/or the sheer denial of it all!
M
Not clear if he meant US or worldwide, but with the E being refreshed in the first half, and with the new S, shouldn't they do better than flat this year?
Wow, so the ability to distinguish a BMW from a Toyota involves intellect and not eye-sight?
So does that mean you have to be a mensa member to distinguish the small Toyota(Camry) from the big Toyota( LS460)?
So one BMW dealership in suburban Detroit is representative of every BMW dealership in USA?
C'mon brightness04 you can do better then that?
Also I am very interested to know where you got the following information:
It's about as absurd as calling Maybach a $350k car when there is a $100k discount, and it's cross-shopped with a $170k Bentley by every would-be acquirer.
Not when the largest MB seller is the dated C-Class.
"This is the world's first parking assist system that enables the vehicle to be automatically steered when it is being backed into a garage or being parallel-parked.
This system enables the driver to park the vehicle into even difficult spots, only requiring the driver to specify the desired parking spot on a display and back up the vehicle while checking the surroundings for safety"
souce, toyota.co.jp
and more, from CNN.com
"Toyota President Fujio Cho sat in the driver's seat at a demonstration laid on for the press, surprising reporters by holding his hands up as the car quickly parked itself.
"I forgot to put on the brake," Cho said. "But it's easy." "
thats wow, go lexus
Lexusi
AUDI
Martin Winterkorn, Audi's chief executive officer, is betting on the Q7 to help him reach a goal of doubling U.S. sales by the end of the decade. Wolfsburg, Germany-based Volkswagen aims to sell 300,000 Volkswagen-brand vehicles in the U.S. in 2008, a 30 percent increase from 2005, Adrian Hallmark, who heads the North American unit, said.
Mercedes Benz
Dieter Zetsche, who heads DaimlerChrysler and its Mercedes Car Group unit, is ``optimistic'' that new models including a new M-Class sport-utility vehicle will boost sales.
Mercedes enjoyed a strong comeback in the last months of 2005, even though the new S-Class was not available yet. That trend should continue in 2006 fired by the new S-Class, R-Class and M-Class.''
link title
Notice how Lexus has to use the word "Intelligent" to describe this dumbed down device.
Such electronic nannies will make driving as exciting as sitting in a baby's stroller. What next a "Lexus Intelligent Electronic Bib" that prevents hot milk from staining your suit?
You stated that the Solara looks like the SC430. Did that hamper their sales in anyway ? Nope.
The LS460 now looks like a Camry... Ehm.. Yeah, if you say so. But discerning eyes know better.
What extent won't German car fans go to discredit Lexus/Toyota ??? The Camry is the best selling sedan in America. The LS is the best selling luxury sedan in America. Hmmmm.... Now it is clear why you loath Lexus/Toyota so much. Were you to be GM fans, I can understand, but this Lexus hating is just too much... Like I said earlier, the more you hate it, the more successful Lexus gets. Neither your dislike, nor your dissing, nor your put-downs will hurt the LS460.
Lets go back to the sales and price issue.
Why is the LS430 priced cheaper than the S430/S500 ? Could it bcos the LS is produced more efficiently hence at a cost that still permits a large profit margin ? And the converse is true for the S-class !!! Do you, Merc1, know which car has a higher profit margin - the cheaper LS or the more expensive S-class ? If you can answer that, you would have solved the riddle of the pricing difference....
Finally, I read the Feb '06 MT comparo for the 330i, C350, and IS350. Ranking was 330, IS350, C350. MB was last of 3. But more importantly, the IS350 as-tested price was $2K HIGHER than the 330i, and $5K HIGHER than the C350. Is Lexus a cheaper alternative to the Germans ???
and I would love to sit in a car read a book and drink a cup of coffee while the car steers its way in an autopilot way,
If this was done by BM or MB, then you wont sleep the night, you will keep saying this is the future and bla bla bla,
BTW, isnt the smart cruise control is rubbish too? hmm, becoz i remember how BM fans glorified the one 7 series had (although lexus had it before) but you know how BM advertise, they make something from nothing, lol
Lexusi
Even the 550i, surely a "driver's car" link title has "Active Cruise Control" listed among the "major highlights".
In BMW's words, If you are closing in on a vehicle – the system slows your BMW to retain the preset distance. Once the distance is back, the system accelerates to the preset speed.
BMW touts technology like that, yet you blast Lexus for introducing intelligent parking assist?
BTW - Did any of us try to trash the S-class the way he is trying to trash the LS460. We said simply it's a falloff in design from the current car due to needless and senseless wheel arches. Something he probably agrees with. Take away those silly arches and the bangled trunk and the silhoueete of that car is still beautiful.
Driving to u appears to be a simple process of getting from point A to point B, w/out worrying if you actually make it there safe... Some of you German car fans are so myopic and narrow in your thoughts, its not funny. Just driving pleasure is all you care about. Even then its not like you drive your car on race tracks all day.... Like the rest of humanity, you drive in mostly heavy traffic-congested roads, where 90% of the *driving* pleasure is totally lost...
Electronic nannies, eh ? Let's just count the many nannies on today's cars:
ABS - u know the one that helps u out when making panic braking
Airbags - u know the ones that prevents your head, knee and side from being crushed in an accident
PCS - u know the one that helps u in an accident by tightening the belts and pretensioners so your body doesn't weave and bob around...
BBW - u know the one that helps u brake quicker and better in accident avoidance
Smart key/Smart Card - u know the one that permits you to start your car w/out need for turning a key in the lock...
and many more I could list here.... These *nannies* you seem to detest have actually made ownership experience much better, making our driving much better as well.. Driving is no longer about point A to point B, unless of course you are a German car fan.
Your getting closer, it's options against residual .. but it does have "around" a $45ish sticker, so it works about the same ..... the hard part is keeping the "C's" out of the service department ....
Terry.
BMW people care about the driving experience and being in control of their vehicles and Lexus folks are more apt to be into "conveniences."
At least when you kick a horse, you get a passionate response!
The "future" according to your post is one of extreme blandness and complacency.
Count me out.
Lexus, COUNT ME IN
Hopefully someone can find stats on car leasing. I quoted the 50%+ figure (53%?) for BMW from an Autoweek article I can no longer find. Anyone else have that article?
The Winter Event cars were actually quite well equipped, premium package etc.. It's not in the financing arm's interest to lease out complete strippers. Most people do not put money down nowadays. The "down payment" suggested in the manufacturers' ads are usually hints at how much meant is left on the bone. Dealer ads are different, and we are not talking about dealer ads here . . . local dealers advertise $199/mo for C230 by jacking up down payment, but that is something you actually have to pay unlike the down payment suggested by manufacturers.