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Have sales of the current LS "fizzled"? No, in fact the ratio of LS sales to S or 7 sales has I believe INCREASED over the past 5 or so years. Note that even though the current LS is "older" (further along in its lifecycle) than the 7, it handily outsells the 7.
Well, if you're truly "willing to wager", put your money where your mouth is. Here's a proposal: I bet you that the LS still outsells the 7, say in the calendar year 2010. We engage a lawyer to hold bets in escrow. Minimum bet $5k. Send an email to me via Pat (host) if you are interested (just request that it be forwarded to me).
You've admitted that prestige is "worth something". That a higher price / higher prestige product can outsell a lower price product if the prestige is basically priced appropriately.
You recognize that Lexus prestige is lower than that of BMW and especially MB. Doesn't that translate into something in sales terms to you? Doesn't it mean that if real people viewed two cars, A and B as exactly the same except for prestige, the higher priced one could sell the same number of units, if it had enough "extra" prestige to justify the higher price?
The only question is, how much is that prestige worth? Because we don't know the answer, you can't blithely explain away Lexus' sales success as being due to lower prices, because there is an offsetting factor of unknown impact...prestige. If the true "street" price of an equivalently configured LS is 10% lower than a 7, we don't know if the 7's higher presitge is worth 5%, 10%, 15%, or some other number to the average customer.
Yes, it is easy to say, and true, that lower prices help Lexus. But that should always go along with an equally true statement, that higher prestige helps MB and BMW vs Lexus.
I only make bets on securities that have a margin of safety. Your bet offers no margin of safety. Therefore I have no choice but to refuse it.
My LS wager involves risking my credibility here in this virtual community . That in itself is worth more than $5K or a Mona Lisa painting.
By the way, you really need to get behind the wheel of a Quattroporte. I'd call it an Ultimate Driving Machine.
Tough crowd!
Tagman asked what emotions the LS stirs last night. Answer in the Lexican land - tremendous excitement and a wish that the car was already here; In Euroland - tremendous fear and denial to most but reasonable to very good objectivity from Tagman and Designman. What's worse is the auto rags they love to use for defense and proof of greatness, and hence a large asset for german cars, are starting to turn on them.
You should really check the facts before you state "facts" that you "believe".... In fact, 7-series sales were up by over 12% for 2005, while LS430 sales were down by 19%. Hence, the sales ratio DECREASED as recent as just last year.
Well ... also, in part, because upon its (the new LS) release as a tangible product, the comparisons (to the new S-Class and others) then became possible. And, of course, once that possibility of comparison became a reality, the more "polarized" participants could then wager verbal warfare about who's got the better product in their camp. Beyond that, this forum has some of the most "passionate about cars" participants, IMHO.
very good objectivity from Tagman and Designman
I'll thank you for that one!
The dog whom I named 325i to help me not attribute "it" human characteristics lifted its leg on the LS.
Draw your own conclusion.
What I gather from reading these posts is that MOST of the so called Lexicans do like the S class and 7 series to a large extent and would definitely consider them if quantifiable things such as reliability and value were to be improved. I think most Lexicans have owned Benz or BMW at some point in time, so they have what I consider a realistic basis for comparison.
I highly doubt most people in the European camp have ever owned a Lexus (and no, Toyotas do NOT count), and IMO, are likely never to do so. Their views are based on several test drives, if even that, and on what they read in auto mags. I know I'll get a lot of grief for this, but I think their minds were made up on the LS 460 before it was even revealed.
Now before you Europhiles start in on me, I want to let you know my next car purchase is almost certain to be European. I like Lexus, but I'm not married to it.
The LS sales, even in its worst slump year(s) have always been higher than 7 series sales in its best years. That's saying something, isn't it ? We have 3 S-class sedans (430/500/600), 3 7-series sedans (745i/L/760), against 1 LS430, and they cannot even come close to beating it. 2004 C&D comparo had the LS430 #1 against its peers... Which means that the LS430 comes closest to what the American consumers demand in the HELM than either the 7- or the S. That simple.... The argument of price, though important, is specious, since the higher prestige of BMW and MB should negate the cheaper price of the LS, or is the market simply saying the prestige factor is EQUAL amongst the three and the LS offers the overall best value ???? Hmmmmm.....
As to Dewey's predictions of doom and gloom for the LS460, he is all alone on that one. And he seem to be retracting that unwise prediction already. Howard's 3-series dog lifting its leg to the LS430 says what again ???
In the perfect Lexican world, I realize it would be nice for you and the select few other posters to be here singing the praises of your favorite vehicle without other points of view. And when too many criticisms of your favorite company get posted around here, all of a sudden there is a great plea for "quality" vs "quantity."
If I feel the LS is a premium Toyota, I will say so. I am far from alone.
I post about the BMWLi760 and the Lexican view is it's way below the LS in class and doesn't really belong on the HELM board. Instead, the focus becomes what I drive-that I am more of an LPS person, even though I only talk about cars I have actually driven.
You can't just have it your way.
I have no opinion on the Audi A8 for the simple reason I have never driven one.
I hope to in the future. If I do, and feel it's a rip-off, then I surely would have no problem calling it the VWA8.
Alas, the world is not perfect.
Besides deep breaths, all I can suggest is just don't read any posts I write.
There must be a computer program out there which can filter out all the unwanted posts and leave you and your fellow Lexicans in complete contentment.
BTW, I like your posts. It took me awhile to read b/w the lines, and Len was quite astute to figure it out, that you were being facetious with your *in-your-face* condemnation of the LS460 as a Toyota ripoff. Do you suppose that the Lexus design team and the Camry deign team exchanged design notes so that their output looks similar ? If you follow the trends starting from the ES330, through the IS350, you will see the Lexus design language showing through. The new Avalon won lots of praise from its radical departure from a stodgy style of the past. Now its selling like hot cakes. And it will appear Toyota has another winner in the 2007 Camry. As for the LS460, the jury is out, although consensus opinion shows its gonna be a winner.
Lexicons have already proven their point by offering to put their money where their mouth is. Europhiles couldn't back down fast enough and just had to swallow their humiliation. I will repeat, money talks, bs walks!!
I can be abrasive and I guess I pushed his overdrive button.
Regardless of my impressions of the LS430, I have posted several times that I intend to drive the new LS460 when it hits the showrooms.
If I like it I will say so. If I don't, well you will know that too.
If BMW comes out with a vehicle that turns me off, I will say so.
I am not married to any company. I get no dividend checks or annual bonuses-only the Famous Amos chocolate chip cookies at the dealer-and they can't buy me that cheap.
I sure wish someone thoughtful out there would deliver me one of those giant Minis.
It would absolutely make my day.
This question has been at the core of many arguments. At some point, a consumer who prefers the higher PRESTIGE of the MB or BMW, will back down due to price and go with what is perceived as a greater VALUE. In fact, it is often IMPLIED in many statements (as above) that there IS greater prestige associated with the European marques, but, this is not ALL that is associated with them. Many view them as superior engineering and/or styling as well as preferred driving dynamics. But regardless of the reason for the preference for the European vehicles, there is still a point for some consumers to abandon "plan A" and purchase "plan B" because it is less expensive and a "good value". Also, there are many times, of course, when "plan A" is in fact the Lexus itself, but, quite frankly, it cannot be denied that the price/reliability factor (value) is often a very big LURE away from the OTHERWISE PREFERRED European choice at times.
TagMan
Three things . . .
1. There is a big difference between the world market and the American market. American consumers have lived through a different history and evolution of automobiles.
2. Even as prices might come closer together regarding competitive products, there is the MOMENTUM factor that is always still in the "wake".
3. If a convergence of the price factor indeed occurs, the market shift, if any, and depending upon prior momentum, can sometimes be like turning an oil tanker . . . long and slow.
But, we'll all see.
TagMan
And YOU should actually READ the post carefully if you are going to go so far as to criticize it. I said the ratio had increased "over the past 5 or so years", NOT that the ratio had increased over EACH of the past 5 or so years.
So, here are the facts:
BMW 7-series 2005 units: 18,165
2000 units: 16,619
+9% in 5 years
Lexus LS 2005 units: 26,043
2000 units: 15,871
+64% in 5 years
So, the LS went from selling 0.95 times as much as the 7-series five years ago to 1.43 times as much in 2005.
Ve...er... We can do better than this.
We must! :mad:
BTW, the Quattroporte engine profile of high RPM and skimpy low-end torque does not belong in a heavyweight vehicle in my opinion. Also, the jerky characteristic of the sequential gearboxes is so antiluxury. It seems Quattroporte owners love their cars, but I guess these people are sport enthusiasts who simply need or love room. Plus, the panache and image that comes with the marque and design is another attraction no doubt.
A $25K difference in base price between the Maser and the Bimmer is not a lot? Hmm (scratches head).
LG the RL centerstack reminds you of a boom box. But do you like the centerstack of the new LS? In all manner of its exterior and interior styling, this is the one element I really don’t like.
But to act as if more sportiness automatically equals an OBJECTIVELY better HEL Sedan is wrong-headed, imho. It basically means imposing on the rest of the world a purely personal viewpoint as to what is important in a HEL Sedan.
What is "best" to each person depends on the personal priorities of that person. What is "best" to the buying public on the whole can actually be seen in black and white in the sales figures each company puts out. Among direct competitors, that means that the E and 5 are doing a better job of meeting market desires than the GS or M; and that the LS is doing a better job of meeting overall market desires than the S or 7.
As for the ball busting over the names; It will never be a VW8; the brands are entirely separate; Audi is a world brand. Lexus is not. I'll never tell you my car is better than others, hey at that price, you can't buy a bad car. Different spokes for different folks. In my opinion, the 7 series handles the best, the Benz is comfortable. I love the look of the Jag and the reliability of the Lexus. The one car that does everything as good but lacks nothing is the Audi.
Lexus is doing that (4.6L direct injection V8: 380 hp) and Audi seems to be going down that path as well (4.2L direct injection V8: 350 hp).
Also, I've heard that the refresh to the Quattroporte will include an optional conventional autobox.
Unfortnuately basically all of the LS460 interior shots available are of the black w/red wood show car, which is not a combination I like at all. I think with a light tan interior it would look very nice. The center stack design is basically what I expected. The RX, GS, IS, and now LS all have a similar layout. It seems to work pretty well here, as it does in the RX. The GS is ok, but I dont really like the IS version.. actually I think the 3 series looks much better (w/o iDrive), as does the TL. I'll admit I was hoping for a retractable wood panel for the Nav screen, similar to the SC430 and A8, but oh well. It's still very much a Lexus inside, although there are some Jaguar cues that are interesting.
http://img493.imageshack.us/img493/6554/bmwlexusoverlay0fq.jpg
1. sportiness somehow is a component for HEL standard; by that standard, 3 series should be higher end than 7 series;
2. then there's the endless allegations of copying; e.g. Accord copies those triagular tail lights from E class; never mind that by that same line of ridiculous and silly line of reasoning, MB "copied" from 1999 Ford Crown Victoria, which had those tail lights before any MB model did.
By that line of logic, Toyota is a beeter brand than Lexus because it has wider world reach? VW and Audi have been feeding at each other's parts bin for many years. Frankly, that only makes good economic sense.
That's one of the most ridiculous and silly lines of logic that I have heard in a long time; which Toyota model would the LS be premium version of? You may as well argue that MB is a premium Chrysler. At least Chrossfire shares some ancestry with SLK, Pacifica with R-class, and 300 with E-class.
Plus, the panache and image that comes with the marque and design is another attraction no doubt.
Very well put, IMHO, for MB and BMW, in comparison to Lexus offerings, excepting the 3 series, which actually does offer a unique market propostion, although not exactly luxury.
Are these still considered Premium Luxury Brands???
What Do You Guys Think??
The 2006 IS2/3 twin starts at $29,9 all the way to $45K
The high-end ranges used to be almost exclusively reserved for their German competitions - E/5, and 3-series, respectively. No longer, and Lexus is selling every single GS and IS they are building. By next year, the GS350/GS460 gets here. This year the GS450h arrives... All good things to keep these cars fresh...
Circa Fall 2006, the LS460/460L comes out priced much closer to MB S450/550; say like $65 - $85K. For those money people who want something higher to move up to, Lexus offers the LS600h (MY2008), comes pretty loaded (AWD, Hybrid, LWB, V12-like power) for $95K. And just for the special low volume edition, the LF-A (MY2009) with the sweet V10, pumping out >500HP, with top speed >200mph. Priced at $100K+. Now Lexus proves it is no longer playing the *value* game.... It is stepping up to the big boys.
I see these as very probable, and very realistic. I predict that the best bargain HELM car this year will be the 2006 LS430. That car will be dirt cheap compared to the base LS460, IMO.
I completely agree that the long wheelbase is the one that will have the greatest possibility of luring away would-be Eurocar customers. If the price of the LS460L is equivalent and not less than the competition, however, I do still think it reduces that possibility somewhat, regardless of "value". At lofty levels, value is great, but there are other needs and desires that must be satisfied by the purchase. I must admit that I myself feel the urge to check it out. (I honestly just don't know if the body is distinctive and beautiful enough for MY hard-to-please taste, however) The regular wheelbase model is a continuation of the same successful game plan, IMO. And regarding the H, you are right about the celebrity status. Yikes!
Is this the brightness04 "prestige scale"? Do you honestly believe that prestige is about a lease payment? What DO YOU think prestige is anyway? Enlighten us PLEASE.
I got a very attractive interest rate of 2.4% last August on the 545, months before the introduction of the 550.
If I were shopping for an LS, the 2006 is what I would be looking at. Should be great deals out there this summer-better than December To Remember.
But human nature being what it is, it's tough to defer one's gratification with that new LS460 staring you in the face!
This is why you have to crush someone out of existence within a few years of their debut. Once they get a toehold you are in a war forever and can get usurped. Microsoft learned that a long time ago and it's why I'd still be very hesitant with Google stock. The latter is also trying to do too much too soon and is priced to perfection on hitting those things in future forecasts across the board. Google 2000 is starting to sound like Dow 60000 to me. But vis a cis the car industry Google, at this time, is to Microsoft (and others) what Lexus was to Mercedes - in 1992.
Here’s the light interior. The LS430 dash was high and so is the 460. It’s not the proportions I care for. The dash is separated into three vertical sections. I like to see Frank Lloyd Wright expanse in horizontal sections. Centerstack is bold and clumsy, no finesse, the shape is unsophisticated. Passenger cubicle is stark. Passenger stares into a handball court. I like the IS and GS dashes better. They are not particularly shapely but are better balanced IMO.
I wasn’t going to post the bottom shot because it looks too good. Let me explain what I mean. They say that pictures don’t lie. Well this is not true, they are often extremely deceptive and this photo is the perfect example. It was taken with a wide angle lens which severely distorts proportions. The bottom photo gives the impression the interior is low-slung and airy, but this is far from the case. I know darn well that when I sit in the 460 the impression I get will be the one I see in the top photo, and it does not give me the warm and fuzzy feeling I would like from a luxury interior. Rather, it has pit-like vertical oppression, like sitting in a room with high light coming from high windows.
Anyway, I know some of you Lexicans are going to love that bottom shot. All I can say is, see what you want to see and enjoy!
;-)
Why would I think what? Can you quote my specific thought you are questioning?
Now the interior of the 06 Range Rover is one that I think looks great. Probably the best of anything under 100k.