High End Luxury Cars

l943973 · January 2002

I understand the LS430 was developed to compete against the S-Class, but its still lacking features. Just simple features like 4-zone climate control, memory settings that include the internal rear view mirror (My wife raises the seat in her setting so I need to readjust the rear view mirror when I switch back to my setting), don't exist on the LS430. (Maybe to keep costs down?).

Another feature that I'm looking for is a power trunk that opens and closes. Its a pain to have to lift the trunk open and get your hands dirty.
(I guess using gloves would help.) (new 7-series feature)

I understand the S-Class isn't as reliable as the LS, but thats what the Porsche sitting in the other garage is for. :-)

As much as Lexus wants to compete against the S-Class, it still has some work to do in my opinion.

I thought about getting an LS430, but in my mind it still feels like a poor man's (relatively speaking) S-Class thats ultra reliable.

Does anyone know if Lexus will build an LS600 with all the S-Class features?

arcoates · January 2002

If a major problem in your life is having to lift the trunk up and getting your manicured hands dirty, then I wish I were you!

I was always under the assumption that the Lexus had the most gadgets of anyone out there. Even more than my precious 7's! When I think of Japanese cars I think of toys. Guess I was wrong~ A.R.

toyotas1 · February 2002

They all appeal to different drivers! The Q45 is for people who want a car no one else has (because n one else likes it!). It has some nice features, but lacks harmony and cohesion. The XJ will be replace in 18 months, so that's up to you, if you really love the styling (it's cramped in there though!). The LS is the best seller because it has the best value for your money! It's achilles heel is it's total lack of (exterior) style. It is the "smart" choice though. The S-class is beautiful, but the most expensive (by far!), most prestigious, and the most likely to confound you when you want it to do something simple...... Which brings us to the best blend of the top three, the 7-series. The newest ride on the street, awesome handling and VERY fun to drive, loads of space, loads of safety and luxury. It will just take you 6-8 months to used ALL te stuff you are buying once! Is probably worse than the Benz in this respect! It will keep you busy behind the wheel. Some people like that! Sexy ride though, and not overpriced.

antiosama · February 2002

Toyotas1, The LS430 wasn't the best seller in January. the 745i was. Of course, that's only one month. But still, it could be something big for BMW.

wishnhigh1 · February 2002

"It's achilles heel is it's total lack of (exterior) style. It is the "smart" choice though."

So you are assuming people shopping in this segment care about being a smart buyer, and getting the most for their money, and being practical? Get over it. Many people in this segment buy for the price alone, just to flash their riches. Most people want the most luxury, the most prestige, the most style, and the most of everything, price disregarded.

If you wanna be smart, go buy an used kia.

Antiosama...do you know what the sales figures are in the luxury segment for january? You have me a little curious, as I thought the 745 was pulling very dismal sales.

antiosama · February 2002

wishnhigh1, Price always matters. It's ridiculous to think that price is disregarded when purchasing luxury cars. If it was, the first generation LS400 wouldn't have been so successful. And actually for that matter, Lexus wouldn't have the prestige level they do today is rich people buy cars with with "price disregarded".

I believe you can check them out at autosite.com, but here are the numbers as I remember them:
7-series 1513 units
LS430 1490 units
S-class 1256

crankster · February 2002

menekse

Is there a reason you didn't consider a Q45? My personal limit I can spend on a car is about $55K, and after driving an E-class, 530, A6 and a Q45, I was surprised at how much I liked the Q. My local Lexus dealer had a used LS430 (6K miles) that I test drove, and I was kind of disappointed in how it drove and handled. I ultimately decided on and preordered an Infiniti G35, which I had went to see at the Detroit car show, but will get a Q instead if I don't like the G35. My biggest problem with the Q is that the center pod on the dashboard is kind of ugly and the trunklid is flimsy & has cheap hinges. The Q's technology interface is not as aesthetic as the BMW's, but did seem to work well.

menekse · February 2002

THE Q45 JUST DOESN'T DO IT FOR ME. I SUPPOSE I SHOULD GO CHECK IT OUT THOUGH. IT JUST DOESN'T SEEM AS LUXURIOUS AS THE LEXUS AND NOT NEARLY AS SPORTY AS THE MS AND BMW. IT HAS A GOOD PRICE BUT I SHOULD AS LEAST TAKE A TEST DRIVE BEFORE I COMMENT FURTHER. THANKS

cncarlson · February 2002

"The XJ will be replace in 18 months, so that's up to you, if you really love the styling (it's cramped in there though!)"

You are exactly right on the short wheelbase XJ (and for that matter the S-type and the new X-type as well)however the XJ8L has tons of room in the back seat. However 2001 was the last year of the XJ8L, but all Vanden Plas's are Long wheel-base models. Go to www.texascarsdirect.com and pick up a late model XJ Vanden Plas and take the extra $30K you would have spend on the LS430 and by a Miata for the sunny days.

pathdoc · February 2002

The longer wheelbase helps the inside but still doesn't give you decent trunk space for a sedan of that price or size. The X class actually has a much larger trunk. This deficiency will supposedly be fixed with the new XJ model.

toyotas1 · February 2002

The LS easily outsells the S-class and 7 series, so MOST people DO buy on value and smart shopping! The LS has really cut into the S-class sales in particular. The New 7 will bring the S-class closer to 20000 sales a year, vs. 30000 for the LS and an expected 20000 a year. That's how the rich stay rich, by making wise investments, and not throwing money at a marque blindly. Mercedes has to earn it's keep, the competition is very tough, and the new VW Pheaton will not help, if they price it right.

merc1 · February 2002

The LS430 is supposed to outsell the 7-Series and the S-Class, for one fundamental reason it's cheaper. A loaded LS430 starts where the new 745i and S430 BEGIN. That said, Mercedes does more than earn it's keep...they sell more cars for more money than anyone else.

M

antiosama · February 2002

As he said, the LS430 sells on value. Which typically means getting more for less-economics. That is what you get with a LS430 over its competition.

wishnhigh1 · February 2002

maybe you guys are right.

I sure hope the Phaeton hurts sales of the LS and the 7 and Sclass. I would love to see a Volkswagen division have a top seller in the ultra luxury class.

v12power · March 2002

I don't think you can say people always buy the best value in this segment. I have a '98 750iL and a '01 S600. These cars are not the best value, yet they exist, and people buy them. I have driven the LS430, it can not compete with the top dogs from BMW and MB yet. Many people in this segment buy what they like, be it styling, performance, or features. I could drive a DeVille for less than half as much. But transportation is not what people are buying in this segment. These cars make a statement. IMO if you have the LS430 you are rich but thrifty, nothing wrong with that. I think the MB or BMW driver has his eye on one of two things, the status his chosen brand commands or the superior driving experience provided by the Germans. I think VW is going to have a tough row to hoe battling MB and BMW.

y338 · March 2002

In recent years, Lexus has already achieved its goal to become one of the best luxury brands. Even in today's BMW 7 series commercial, BMW considers the LS (not the Mercedes or Jaguar) as it 1st competitor. who says the Lexus's tech is not as advance as BMW or MB? Lexus LS has the lowest aero drag coef. (0.25 vs 0.29 in latest 745i) It is also the only lux sedan to provide the rear seat massage system. (not to mention the most advanced DVD Navigation sys, most of the German cars are still using CD-rom base Nav!) Also, lexus outpaced BMW and MB as the highest satisfaction luxury brand. this is a very important factor to consider a luxury sedan. those german fans need to own one to feel how good a lexus can be!

steher · March 2002

Lexus is for sure one of the best luxury brands! It's a great car with great technology. But It won't have a chance here in Europe against Audi, BMW, and MB comparing sale-figures! Noone looks at a Lexus over here (in Germany), it's nothing special! Don't know why, but to me it also seems unattractive. Even the "old" A8 looks better to me. I think it's the same story as with the Audi A8 in America. Noone will doubt that it is a great car, but it has not the image-factor it has here in Europe! Even the German chancellor drives Audi, many royals drive them (Spanish king owns several, Lady Di owned one etc.) In China it's the car of the rich people... What's up America?

v12power · March 2002

My S600 has massage on all four seats. I am very pleased with the accurate helpful NAV system. It got me home on a 2400 mile cross country trip, with no other map. It locates, hotels, restraunts, golf courses etc. I don't have any problems with it.

I have looked at and driven the LS430. I found my BMW 750iL to be quieter, better riding, better handling, better looking, faster, more rear legroom etc. etc. They are great cars but thankfully there are many flavors to choose from.

I think very soon you will see MB and BMW catching and likely surpassing Lexus in many service catagories. I have a BMW and MB, they are VERY serious about service. Sales people and service people are being docked pay if customer surveys come back anything short of perfect. My experience in the last six months with the German brands has shown them to be serious about getting back in the game. I have Lexus to thank for this. I just do not like their cars, nothing wrong with them, I just do not like them as well as my German uber sedans.

wishnhigh1 · March 2002

.25 drag coeficient is pretty hard to believe, but it is possible. Do you have any proof to show this?

Also, a low drag coefficient isnt exactly the best thing in the world. Typically it comes at a cost of reduced downforce, which is not a good thing in high power luxury cars, especially in germany on the autobahn.

Also, does the fact that Lexus uses DVD make it better than one that runs a CD based nav? Is that the only significant difference? As far as I can tell, the DVD only allows more memory storage. It doesnt exactly make it "higher quality" or better really.

y338 · March 2002

DVD based of course can store more info than CD-Rom. The system itself also does the calculation much more faster than others. (I compared the toyo-camry and mb-ML320 navi. and toyo nav just provided more accurate and faster info. Probably Toyo updates the system more frequent! lexus used the cd-rom based a few years ago, but it changed to dvd-based last year. ) You can visit www.lexus.com to check the drag figures. As a matter of fact, the lowest drag makes lexus to become the quietest luxu sedan. It was measured by almost all the auto mags. Quietness might not be the most important factor for the driver, but it is very important for passengers.
I don't understand why those people compared ls430 with S600 and 750il, since they are obviously more expensive. YOu should compare the toyota flagship CENTURY with them.... (it is only sold in JAPAN and a few more countries.) You might not know, Japanese keeps the best things in Japan and never exported.

v12power · March 2002

I used those because I own them. Besides they are top of the line from their respective manufacturers, as is the LS430 in this country.

On the nav updates, none of the manufacturers do this themselves. There are companies out there like Navitech that provide the software to auto companies. They compile data and sell it. Lexus does not do it more often, nice try though.

flint350 · March 2002

DVD is far superior to CD - especially when you consider you have to change up to 9 cd's to cover the U.S. With DVD you never have to change the disc. The inferior installation of this in the S Class Benz is a good example of how much better the Lexus system is in usability.

carnaught · March 2002

...how much is that S600 and the 750i? Now how many LS430's can you buy for each of these?

Yet, they are actually being compared to one another.....

ljflx · March 2002

Comparing MB service to the levels you get at Lexus is like comparing grade school to college. MB is way behind here and so is BMW from what people say. Lexus treats you like royalty. But the best thing of all is that, other than basic maintenance, the LS430 hardly ever needs service.

ljflx · March 2002

Can you imagine how great a car Lexus would make for $100k? Plus it would still be $15-20k cheaper than an S-600. With the reputation they now have no doubt it would sell. Some of the most successful people I know have LS430's and I'm talking people who have banked $10mln plus. I know because I bought their busnesses and have remained close with many of them.

V12 power - There is a strong rumor that the Lexus LS will be adding a v-12 in the near future. They almost did it as an option in 2001.

prattster · March 2002

See www.finestsedan.com The LS430 reminds me of that one straight A student in the high school days. Never content with good always in pursuit of outdoing the other high achievers but being humble about in the process.

zscott1 · March 2002

And everybody made fun of him too.

ljflx · March 2002

Because he got on their nerves.

prattster · March 2002

That's funny. Recall when the 1st LS came out in 89' the Germans were mocking it and than shortly after they were scrambling in fear as it ate their lunch. Now who's laughing!

merc1 · March 2002

I see we're back on that BS again.

M

v12power · March 2002

Here is a fun paragraph, or two, from the 11/'00 issue of C&D, that tested the new LS430.

"The seven spoke wheels are carbon copies, the chrome outline of the side windows is pure Benz, the headlamps are the S-coupes, and the taillamps are shaped like those on the current E-class. The steering wheel, the shifter, and other interior elements owe a similar debt to Bruno Sacco and his Stuttgart colleagues."

"The options list also bristles with formerly Benz-only goodies, such as front seats with bottom cushions that move fore and aft independantly of the backrest for thigh support and optional door closers to finish the job for rich, feeble old codgers who can no longer slam a door. Power folding mirrors, adaptive cruise control, voice command for the phone and navigation systems, heated and cooled seats, rear air, a power rear window shade - whatever Mercedes bids, Lexus calls or raises with the new LS430 (except there's not a V12 yet)."

Those boys at Lexus sure are innovators!

ljflx · March 2002

Now let's talk about C&D's objectivity. They review the SC430 vs. the CLK430 in the current issue. What wins all the technical contests - the SC430. What gets the oohs and aahs when they are on the road - the SC430. The SC430 blows away the CLK's interior - even they have to admit that much. The CLK seems to have a pretty serious brake problem - but heck, what importance do brakes have on the road. So what wins the C&D road test. The CLK. Why - subjective or should we really say pyschological opinion. They like the looks of the CLK over the SC430 despite the fact that the people they encounter feel the opposite. They like a German riding car better. They shouldn't have wasted their time doing the test as their decision was made beforehand. I even felt compelled to doublecheck that the author wasn't the French judge at Salt Lake City. So I hope V-12power that you don't really take C&D or any of these people seriously. No one who discredits themselves like that can be taken seriously. They are fans not objective reviewers.

v12power · March 2002

That is the oldest cry baby excuse in the book. They didn't like your car so they MUST be biased, or on the payroll or some such non-sense. It is just impossible that one car is better than the other. You make it sound like MB or BMW always win C&D tests. In fact, Lexus has come out ahead of the Germans in many tests. I will remember to not take them seriously next time a Lexus beats an MB or BMW. Love your logic.

ljflx · March 2002

Bias is obvious when car A outscores car B but the tester votes for car B by giving out higher marks in categories that are purely subjective to his tastes. That's logic 101 - and yes you're right I don't take it seriously when Lexus wins either. These mags are worth the $10-12 a year they cost for pointing out upcoming trends and new car models and that's about it.

v12power · March 2002

I was not trying to compare anything. You brought up a comparison of two vehicles not included in this topic. My post was meant to illustrate who the real leader is in this segment. Although I have no love for the new 745i, once again the Germans have raised the bar. Maybe Lexus will copy the BMWs styling next. It is too bad, as they can obviously stand on their own if they like.

ljflx · March 2002

We apparently were making different points - mine being that C&D is hardly a good source document to prove a point. The comparative I used in the current issue was to illustrate that.

The copying topic has been kicked around so often that it is tiring. Many, including myself believe this is pure competition at its best and that MB and BMW have done the same thing in different ways anyway. Notice the proliferation of V-8's after Lexus and Infiniti showed up. Is that copying or response to competition? If Nordstrom were to introduce a new designer that Saks had introduced into their clothing line 6 months earlier are they copying? If you think so than we have different viewpoints about business and no further discussion is needed.

What I always find amusing is no one accuses the German brands from copying each other. Who introduced the first V-12 and who followed suit in this class of cars? If Lexus brings the V-12, that has existed for quite some time in Japan, to American shores it's not copying (to me) but just a further extension of their competitive presence. If they do it they may very well put it in the GS as well and then MB and BMW will have to put it in the E and 5 series. Would anyone cry foul? Certainly not me. They'd be foolish not to. That's why in the long run I think this comes down to MB vs. Lexus as they both have much greater capital resources than does BMW. But no matter what anyone thinks about the latter two I must say that, depite the fact that I also don't like the new 7 and almost find it repulsive, I have a lot of admiration for BMW's fighting spirit and toughness.

merc1 · March 2002

I think V12 is right. When I saw the car in the #1 spot I knew it would cause an uproar. It seems to me that the CLK scored higher in transmission, handling, ride (Lexus supposed to dominate there right?), driver comfort, styling, open motoring, and fun to drive. I'm having this same conversation in the coupes forum. Better leather/wood/stereo/ doesn't cut it, when the SC430's body is less rigid or the fact that is lack any kind of rollover protection. Leather, wood and stereo's can only carry you so far. The CLK's interior may not be as fancy, but it's far from junk either. Very far from it. I don't see them saying anything about the SC's interior "blowing away" the CLK's. I do see where they made reference to a Buick (of all things). The SC is just another yawner on the road, like most Lexuses are. Only the cars styling evokes anything.

Do you really think that that CLK's on the road have a brake problem or that the test car (which is used by all magazines) had been abused to the point of making the brakes fail, abuse that probably took place before C&D got the car. Considering that it was the ONLY CLK430 Cabrio MBUSA has in the fleet it's used by anyone requesting a test drive. CLK's don't have a brake problem, that's pure fantasy. The outcome of this test should be no surprise, the more driver focused car always wins at C&D. And these wins in the "technical" categories you're speaking of were by a mere tenth of a second or a mere 1 mph. Come on you've got to know that when two cars are that close in numbers the subjective things like styling/ride/handling and others determine the winner. I know you know this. Even their prices are the same so the Lexus couldn't win on that either.

On this copying thing. It's been said many times many ways, but Lexus remains the number one copy cat of the auto industry. Period. Mercedes and BMW rarely if ever copy a thing from either other. They, together set the standard for the rest to follow, period. Lexus included. Competition is what Lexus is, but taking a whole bodystyle from another brand is copying.

I agree that if I wanted either of these cars I wouldn't base my decision on a C&D article or any other magazine, but they do point out the traits of the cars in question.

M

ljflx · March 2002

We've disagreed before so it'll be the same here. No way do I take the MB CLK over the SC430 here. Nor do I even consider it. But if you're talking the new SL that's a different story. Spectacular car from everything I've read and beautifully styled but let's remember it's also $25k+ more. But - if I still need 3 vehicles in about 2 years and if business things go for me the way I currently expect - than I'm giving the SL a serious look at the time as the third car. Before my wife and I got married we always said we wanted his and her SL's. We actually knew a couple that did though they were quite a bit older than us. But those were the pre-children and pre-Lexus days.

ljflx · March 2002

Never answered your questions on my cars. I have the two LS430's and an LX470. I had an old style Landcruiser and was going to get the new model. I loved the cruiser and it was as reliable as a Lexus. But then my Lexus salesman, who knew I would be looking again at at the TLC cut me a deal on an LX470 for only $15 a month more than a TLC would cost. So I went with it plus I got it in the color I wanted. The differences between the two are that the Lexus can lower the suspension when you park which is great if you have older parents. It also rides smoother and quieter and has more interior wood, better leather and the memory seat positions. I am limited in SUV's as I need the space and I must have 3 rows of seats. The LX470 gives me all that and is the largest SUV my wife will drive.

I have a nice position when it comes to cars. I get a generous auto allowance from my job which basically pays for one car and I get a tax deduction for the truck as I have a successful business (in which I am a partner) outside of my job. Choosing the LS430 was not an economical decision for me - I just felt it bested the S-500 in the things I desired in a car. It's nice to haver choices. Would I have been happy in an S-500? Do you know anyone who wouldn't be. But in all honesty MB's reliability issue is concerning and has to be addressed.

merc1 · March 2002

Well I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on the CLK/SC thing. It must be nice to enjoy several cars from your favorite brand. I still think you're making MB's issue bigger than it really is. I don't see S500's on the side of road with their hoods up and smoking. Yes they have smaller problems with switches, and things of the like, but the driving makes up the difference for some.

M

v12power · March 2002

I JUST got my new C&D yesterday. I have FINALLY read the articles in question. On the CLK vs SC430, I would definately side with C&D and get the CLK. I like the looks better. I like the idea of a stiffer structure and better handling. The features issue and extra glitzy Lexus interior are a distant second on my priority list. That I think is where Merc and I differ from toyotas1. A dvd nav system does not appeal to me. I have two cars with nav systems. In the last three years I have actually used this feature on one trip.

I also do not think adding stiffer springs to the SC is going to transform it. If you think about it, the Lexus drew critisism for a flexy structure. It demonstrated flex with soft springs. What do you think the result of adding stiffer springs would be? You may get some handling improvement, more likely you will be overtaxing the structure insighting more chassis flex and ultimately squeaks and rattles. It would take more than that to cure the SCs handling deficit.

I think the SL500 was well received. They had a couple negatives. Most had to do with the lees than sporting nature of the car. WELL, it is not intended to be a sports car. The AMG version will address that, as they noted. There is simply no comparison between the SC and SL. An objective comparision test would surely demonstrate where the extra $25k was spent.

arcoates · March 2002

Not to pick a fight, but copying the cylinders in an engine or the displacement is not the same as copying the styling. I don't even have a problem with copying technology or safety features because that is competition. What car companies don't expect to be copied is their original designs!~ A.R.

antiosama · March 2002

Compare a 120K S600 to a $70K LS430 then blast it for copying. Let's not forget all that Toyota/Lexus has given to the luxury car game in the last 10 years. They have added innovations in many areas. True, the styling, especially, on the current LS430 is a rip-off. But very little does Lexus copy from other car brands.

Features are copied all the time. That is a stupid thing to even bring up.

merc1 · March 2002

I agree with the last two posts about technology and engines, but Lexus copies all the little details they can. Wheels, gearshifts, styling (I mean the whole body is some cases) and when then don't outright copy they make a very awkward ungainly car, like the GS series, which took E-Class cues and matched them with the original GS300's Italian styling. A mess.

M

v12power · March 2002

"Features are copied all the time. That is a stupid thing to even bring up."

That is a pretty shortsighted view, don't you think? How about features like ABS braking systems and supplemental restraint systems? These now commonplace systems were pioneered by MB. Somebody has to innovate, or nothing changes, or at best change is painfully slow.

MB even pioneered crash testing so that we could all be a little safer. So you would rather send your money to the copy cat company? Wouldn't it make more sense to send your money to the company on the leading edge? How else do we improve automobiles? If everybody copied like Lexus who would lead?

They copy brand new features. Some of you Lexus supporters act like Lexus offers this cutting edge sedan for less. Ironically they didn't invent anything on the car, somebody else did. I guess if that is OK with you, be my guest. I prefer to send my dough to a company that actively improves the standards of the whole industry, to all of our benefit, rather than pick up a knock off for less and consider myself wise for doing so.

You claim that Lexus copies very little. Funny, did you read post 1284? There is a pretty good list of innovative features that MB invented and brought to the market. Lexus then copied them and undersold the innovator. The list included; heated and cooled seats, power sunshades, power door closers, adaptive cruise control, voice recognition systems.

I have just been using the S600 because it is an easy referance for me. We can use the S430 if you like, it is essentially the same car.

You claim Lexus has added many innovations over the last 10 years. Please list their innovations.

antiosama · March 2002

v12power, You're just another joke waiting to happen. You're just like every other prestige loving fool.

Every company copies from other companies. It's how products are improved. Benz has given a lot of innovations to the automobile market, but that doesn't mean whatsoever that I will pay them $10K more for a similar product or for a lesser product. To say things like power seats are copied is ridiculous. It's not really what I would consider a innovation. Wow, a extra motor is added to make one more cushion move. How about power closing doors. A motor is placed so that the door is closed. Again, not much innovation. And alot of the features you see on cars that are really innovations are not at all innovated by the car makers. Try Bosch, Delphi, Visteon, etc. for parts innovations. Generally these companies work with the car companies to come up with new products.

Let's see Lexus is on the cutting edge on many planes. Do you see any other carmaker matching the quality of a Lexus? I see after 10 years+ BMW and Mercedes still can't touch a Lexus for quality. I see plenty of innovation in that. They keep pushing the envelope and nobody can catch up. And please don't tell me that isn't part of the car. Because how you build a car has everything to do with a car. The Japanese innovate in many areas. Typically German car fanatics can't take it, because they are too full of their rolling snob mobiles.

Adaptive cruise control. Give me a break. Both companies-Lexus & MB-were working on these at a similar time. As usual, the credit goes to Benz for no reason. YOu fail to realize that alot of carmakers are designing similar features at the same time.

I suppose Benz introducing Air-conditioned seats would be copying Lincoln?

v12power · March 2002

I guess when it gets down to the facts of the matter, and you cannot compete, the insults start to fly.

So you are able to list ONE supposesed inovation, quality? At the same time the things MB brought to market first, the things they innovated are discounted by you. It only counts if you say so right? Credit goes to Benz when it is deserved, when you are first, thats it, pretty simple.

This quality thing is so overblown. Sorry but Lexus is NOT on a plane above the rest. I have owned MB products for years. I have not had a single failure on any of them. Routine maint is all they have ever required. Best of all, unlike Lexus, all of my maint is paid! On my Benz to 36k miles and on my BMW to 50k miles. You must pay for Lexus service, and it isn't cheap. C&D long term tests show Lexus cars to have higher than average maint costs over 40k miles.

My MB experience has been very good, why change? My BMW experience has been very different. I have had MANY repairs on my 7 series BMWs. Multiple trips for the same problem, waiting for parts, worthless customer service at the factory level. Lexus certainly has most manufacturers beat. This is changing. MB(and BMW) now issue surveys at every visit. If things are not perfect, the contact employee is docked pay. The level of service is already MUCH improved and is bound to succeed by holding people accountable.

So the quality gap is a pretty thin margin to be staking your entire argument on. The gap is nowhere near what you suggest, in my actual experience with the cars. The innovations come from the Germans, always have. Your inability to list ten years worth of innovation by Lexus clearly illustrates this.

If buying the finest product I can afford makes me a snob, well, so be it. I'm just not a K-Mart shopper.

wishnhigh1 · March 2002

I love it. Somehow, German cars are rolling snob machines...which makes Lexi cars for the most humble and meek that walk the earth.

antiosama · March 2002

As I said before, v12 driver, many things are innovated by many companies at the same time. Adaptive cruise control is not just a mercedes innovation. Long before Lexus even introduced adaptive cruise, dateline on NBC showed Toyota testing adaptive cruise. That was several years before the LS430 ever hit the streets.

I never stated Mercedes hasn't innovated. They are clearly the leaders in innovation. But as with most Mercedes fans, you also make it out as only Mercedes innovating. Where do all the electronics innovations come from? That is typically Japan. As I said before, the technology that goes into building a Lexus, Mercedes or BMW can't match. And it shows in many areas. I'm sure just like a typical German car fan, you'll say JD power's and Consumer's Reports are biased or their testing is flawed. But realistically it speaks volume about how well about the technology that goes into every Lexus product. Also who had Nav systems in cars long before Mercedes? TOyota had them years before Mercedes did. And when Mercedes was still lugging around with archaic stereo systems with paper speakers and crappy sound quality, lexus was designing a ground breaking stereo system with Nakamichi. Let's move on to the 1995 LS400 being the first car to have front seats with it's own suspension system. Or the innovative climate control system of the 1995 LS400. Let's not forget a innovation Mercedes still can't seem to muster, a in-dash CD changer. Quiet-can anyone make a car as quiet as a Lexus? If you don't think this is constant innovation, you're kidding yourself. To make a car quiet takes alot more than just packing the car with foam & weight.

I had a 88 Benz S-class. It was a very good car. It was extremely reliable up to 100K miles. I was very happy with it. But the new E-class(in 2000) and S430 were simply outclassed by the LS400. Yes, the S430 has slightly better handling and more features but it also costs about $20 grand more. The E-class costs a about the same as the 2000 LS400 but with less feature content. And luxury. And both Benz's had subpar interior quality. The plastic, leather, & vinyl in both of these cars felt cheaper than my 88 420SEL. As for handling, as I said, the S430 is slightly better and ultimately that doesn't cut it. Especially considering I spend 70% of my time in traffic and the rest lugging the family around. Who has time to be Mario Andretti? As the name suggests, it's a Luxury car and luxury is the top priority for the average luxury car buyer. How many S430 customers do you think buy a S430 for it's handling? I can guarantee very few.

ajvdh · March 2002

"the technology that goes into building a Lexus, Mercedes or BMW can't match"

OK, where's the Lexus equivalent of BMW's valvetronic technology (no throttle plate, drastically increasing efficiency)? Or an active anti-roll system? Or the doors that hold open at any arbitrary angle (not just at detents)?

I don't see them selling electro-hydraulic braking like MB does. What about MB's ABC suspension - the nearest thing to a true "active" suspension on the market?

Toyota does a lot of things right, but to claim that they're technologically head and shoulders above MB or BMW is evidence of blind bias.

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