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While your point about the IS350 is understood, as it really is a pretty good handler for a Lexus, and it is "tossable with 4 doors" . . . a darn good achievement, IMO . . . but, as I see it, it is NOTHING like the Mercedes CLS AMG in terms of top-of-the-scale capabilities.
TagMan
So true!
And if that rumor of a VDIM-kill switch goes into the '07 IS, that would be outstanding. Any ideas if they'd toss in a 6-MT as well ?
A six-speed MT IS350 will probably happen for '07. That would be a very good way to try and steal some of the new G's thunder, especially if it doesnt launch with a MT option, as was the case for the initial '03 launch.
So true!
Alright Lexusguy and Tagman, the two of you are really hitting home and stepping on my toes now. You’re talking about one of my cars here. I’m allowed to criticize others’ cars but you can’t criticize mine. Those are the rules. ;-)
Anyway, the stock materials in the 996/986 interiors were the pits. However, the design is superior to the current models IMO. The shapes and lines in the former were far more sophisticated in my opinion and the opinion of many others.
Regardless, I could really care less about Porsche interiors and most Porsche enthusiasts feel the same way. The interiors from the 993 backward looked like military Jeeps. When you drive a Porsche, the only thing that matters is the drivetrain, steering, suspension and sound of the engine and exhaust. And those who don’t know this might not make it through their lease without luxury withdrawal.
Actually, today’s Porsches are way more luxurious than they used to be. 911s at one time were basically a couple of roller coaster seats on top of a go-kart wrapped in sheet metal (beautifully sculpted sheet metal I might add). I don’t think you got AC that actually worked correctly until the 996—that's 1999 for heaven's sake!
Plus, if you hate rattles, kiss the idea of any P cab goodbye. They should call them diamondbacks, not cabriolets. They make it out of the showroom for a couple of thousand miles OK, but it just gets worse and worse after that. Even the coupes rattle. You will always get Porsche owners who say, oh no, mine doesn’t rattle but either they aren’t listening or they’re in denial. Any cars with suspensions like that are going to wind up rattling.
Some perspective... Enzo Ferrari once said, you pay for my engine, the rest of the car is free. Which brings me back to a point I made a while back, that is, the level of sport is the luxury in these cars.
When I placed the response "so true", I was going to add "but who really cares, anyway! It's all about the driving!"
You have let me know that I should have added that!
In spite of the lacking interiors in the Porsches, they were and are still awesome vehicles in their own right.
Your point is well taken and has full merit and almost my total agreement. I say almost because we have to admit that there is nothing wrong with the idea of a great interior in a performance car.
It's just not the primary focus!
Anyway, you are right. No doubt about it.
TagMan
Sports cars are not luxury cars. The luxury items (soft suspension, supple seats, sound deadening, high profile tires, etc...) in a car cancel out the very qualities that make a sports car like a 996, what it is and should be: a street legal race car.
A bigger point here is the assumption that you can have the best of both worlds: a sports car that is also a luxury car. The fact is you can't have both. But you can buy a 997 AND an s550 or ls600.
Designman, p cabs are generally squeek and rattle free. But the hot babes that ride in the passenger seat do make a lot of noise.
:mad:
I see Edmunds has driven the CLK63 and ML63. The new AMG engine is a masterpiece. Now watch for the SL63, CL63 and S63 with 571hp and 620lb-ft of torque! Look for Detroit 2007 as the coming out party for the S63 AMG and the twin-turbo version of the new 6.2L V8.
M
Lovely lady in the pic on your link.
The 996/986 interior design is great, the materials on the base cars are not unless you get the full leather. Even then things like the stalks, vents and cupholders are cheap. And the sound systems woah boy, are they ever cheap worse radio I ever had in any car and it appears it didn’t get any better with the new babys.
I don’t care though. Whatever they do to keep the weight down is fine with me. Porsches are creeping up with weight and I am not interested in luxury Porsches. Like one reviewer said after the 986 Boxster S racked up another first in a comparo you can feel the money in the steering and suspension hardware. They are also noisy enough (sorry for the irreverent term, it’s actually engine music) to not need any spectacular sound system. But if anyone is feeling particularly generous to the Porsche cause, by all means get the Bose and have the sound garbled even more.
Perhaps the Porsche owners who read this forum are gonna come out of the woodwork. Sorry, I tell it like I see it, even with my own cars, ESPECIALLY with my own cars.
And good thoughts, IMO. For the most part, we're on the same page.
TagMan
For example, Porsches are great handlers and therefore we are supposed to be willing to excuse the interiors, since the company's focus has been primarily on the engine and suspension, and delivering us a terrific driving experience.
By the same token, are we suggesting that we should excuse a reasonable lack of performance by Lexus, just as an example, because the focus is on luxury and reliability?
I guess it all leaves me with these two questions:
1.) Should we really be so forgiving if there is a lack of luxury in a performance car . . . or conversely a lack of performance in a luxury car?
2.) If we would really prefer BOTH, then which cars are the best at simultaneously delivering BOTH performance and luxury?
TagMan
I really don't care about a car's audio system because I hardly use it, but just knowing a manufacturer would stoop so low to include a Bose system in its vehicle, would be a deal-breaker for me. There are simply too many better choices out there than to settle for Bose.
Nice to see BMW is starting to use Carver speakers.
Go Elliot! (one of my 2 original picks still in the running).
In comparison, my B&O 18 speaker system in my W-12 is unbelievable. It sounds as if you're in a stadium. I still haven't cranked it past half the volume scale, in fear of going deaf and busting out all of my windows at once.
Carver speakers-10 of them in a 2 seater, no less!
Hopefully, this trend will continue throughout the entire BMW line.
I do have one reservation on this though. I'm a past owner of a '05 S65. I tried everything in my power to get this thing to hook up on launch, but even the slightest lurch of the pedal sent the car adrift. And with torque numbers rising even still, I'd imagine it'll be harder to get it going in a hurry. Maybe M-B has done some calibrations with the TRAC and ABC to get it to hook up earlier, but once under way, there is no stopping this car. The quickest time I posted at Willow Springs was 4.45 seconds, and I'm a novice.
I did notice however that MB is using the 7-G in this car, as opposed to the excellent but dated 5-speed auto. It's been said that the AMG-spec 7-G trannies share only 20% of internal parts with the less powerful models, in order to keep from shredding them apart.
So Mercedes has once again set the bar even higher in the hp wars. With this latest Mercedes only seeing a modest weight gain, better electronics, and a more refined chassis, I see no reason why it shouldn't keep it's "speed" crown in it's class.
BTW, if anyone was paying attention, that 3.8 seconds to 60 is very close to the current SL65, which is over 600 pounds lighter.
Interesting choice in Carver. Their ribbons of old were quite legendary in their day, but they aren't really known for speakers, or much of anything these days. I wonder why they didnt go with a German company, like Canton?
I would love to see Denon used for an integrated vehicle audio system-they put Bose to shame!
I have a Denon home audio system coming within a few days to go with my 32" XBR.
I had a chance to listen to this system in a Lincoln LS, which is probably the best part of the car, and it was mind blowing.
Good to see BMW doing this what with the ML audio systems in Lexus vehicles.
They have to keep up.
HK just doesn't cut it anymore!
I find it interesting that some think that the Bose system is a rip off. It could be for all I know.
When I bought my Porsche in December, 05 I clearly heard a difference in the $1200 Bose surround sound upgrade vs. the standard system. I went for the standard system though thinking that my listening tastes (country, right wing talk radio) and 61 year old ears which spent a whole year up close and personal with a mortar tube some 40 years ago wouldn't appreciate it. Now I regret it. Do you think that for $1200 I could get a meaningful aftermarket upgrade? Or would I be paying high retail for junk installed by a 20 something who will make a mess of the electrics?
Depends on how one defines luxury. To me, a luxury sedan should be as quiet as possible. But when we discussed CVTs, merc1 seemed to feel that even a luxury car should "sound" like a car, at least under acceleration. Nothing wrong with that view, it is just a personal preference.
blckislandguy - great picks, IMO. You and I have already exchanged some of our similar preferences, and I thank you.
There are others too, however, and I'm curious to hear what they will be.
For example, is it entirely possible that merc will pick the CLS AMG?
TagMan
With a base of $96k, sure it's pricey, but worth every buck. Before the riot begans, Audi isn't the only one. The latest MB AMG cars deliver on the promise on daily transport and sporting fun wrapped in a luxurious package so good you'll ask; Who to make the $180k check out to?
Go to a dedicated, high end car audio shop, a place that sells brands like MB Quart and Rockford Fosgate. Simply replacing the stock speakers should only cost a few hundred dollars, and will give you dramatically better sound.
With a base of $96k, sure it's pricey, but worth every buck.
Admittedly, in the past I was guilty of "Audi-ignorance", due to a significant lack of interest, but more recently Audi has really begun to catch my attention as a more legitimate player, and I would venture to guess that others feel the same way as well.
Along with the '04 and forward new generation Jaguar XJ, it could be argued that Audi is also a winning candidate for the "most improved" award, IMO.
TagMan
Actually the S65 AMG keeps the old 5-speed because the 7G-Tronic can't cope with the S65's torque.
M
Of course the Quattroporte is a spectacular looking automobile. Have you driven one? If so, tell me about the drive. I admit that I have not, and to tell you the truth, I do not know why I have not done so. Fortunately, there is a dealer near me, and I think I should make it a point to drive one in the near future.
Thanks.
TagMan
Then you have the next group of cars up like a Bentley Continental Flying Spur or the S65 AMG. Pure luxury and power to spare, but how sporting (handling wise) can cars of their size really be? There are others in the class particularly the Audi S8 that stands out in my mind as a very unique car with what promises to be scathing performance with an interior to die for. The S8 might be the best compromise here especially if they offered it in long-wheelbase form.
I'd say over these would be the cars in the running as the best mix (compromise) between sport/luxury depending on your size/price criteria:
Audi S8
Mercedes E55/CLS55
Maserati Quattroporte
Mercedes S65
Jaguar XJR/Portfolio
Audi S6
BMW 760i (short wheelbase with sport pack)
While we're talking about this luxury-performance thing there is a comparo in the June issue of Car and Driver that puts the new S600 against the Rolls-Royce Phantom. They picked the S600 over the Rolls in nearly every catergory except sheer ride comfort.
M
Yes, congratulations . . . good choice. I use Denon's AVR-5803 THX 7.1 component and it is quite superb . . . literally ground shaking.
I am not a Bose fan either. It's hype, with some exceptions.
TagMan
But, is the Quattroporte really THAT good? Beyond it's incredible looks? Both you and lexusguy have referred to it very favorably, although lexusguy says it is the ultimate and you do not.
Have you driven one? I asked lexusguy if he has. I have not.
TagMan
Do you dislike that trunk, too?
TagMan
Heavens no, I wish! What has me about the Quattroporte is the interior, styling, and the sheer sound of it, which I have been fortunate enough to hear close up a few times. The Quattroporte also manages to be something that no other car is in this class - exclusive. Even in the richest of areas you won't see many Quattroportes while Mercedes and BMWs are a dime a dozen. Maser and Aston-Martin have managed to increase their sales dramatically in the last few years, yet you don't see them that often. Even the once super-exclusive Bentley is as common as a S-Class or 7-Series in some areas.
M
M
BTW, the new Bentley Continental GTC is such a terrific looking convertible. The root design is stellar without resorting to any gimmicks. I absolutely love its appearance.
Let's go drive (I didn't say "buy") that Quattroporte . . . and quit wishing!
TagMan
Could be since I've never driven it. I think very highly of it, but for the daily grind and more straight-line oomph I think the Airmatic AMG cars are the better compromise or something like the S8. Then there is the issue of wanting/needing to keep shifting gears in the Quattropore. I suspect that would get tiring after a while and/or in everyday traffic, but for fun and 4-doors I don't see anything topping the Maser except the M5.
I detest all these newer Bentley's looks so we disagree there.
M
M
There is a new silver S-Class that is in my community and sits about a mile from my home in front of this family's house in their circular driveway, and I'd swear they leave it outside just to show it off or something, because it is never parked inside the garage (unless the garage is full with Bentley and Ferrari or something . . . ha ha).
But, I drive by that direction over there almost every day and I'm telling you, man, that trunk has grown little by little every day until it is now a monster of a trunk.
TagMan
detest is a strong word . . . says a lot.
Even the Continental GTC? Oh well, go ahead, break my heart.
TagMan
Don't get me wrong these new Bentleys have a presence on the road that shades any Mercedes(save the SLR)/BMW/Jaguar, but they aren't beautiful like Aston-Martins or stunning like Ferraris or Lamborghinis and they lack the old-world aristocrat look of the Arnage.
Its the same thing I've always said about the BMW 7-Series. It is also a very big, bold, and attention getting car, but pretty or beautiful it is not.
I am curious to know what Lexusguy thinks of these new Bentleys.
M
The Bentley Continental GT reminds me a bit of Jaguar's R-coupe concept from a few years ago. Its a good looking car, but I agree that it doesn't come close to something like a V8 Vantage. Now that you mention it, I can see the VW cues.
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-jkl/Jaguar-R-Coupe-Concept-FA-1024x768.jpg