High End Luxury Cars

lexusguy · June 2006

Now, everybody makes powerful, almost TOO powerful, luxury cars, even NON-luxury cars, like 300C. Where is the niche for a new luxury marque? Audi, Acura and Infiniti still haven't found it, and have been on the trail for 15 years!

Thats exactly what I said the last time the "Hyundai is going to crush the world with their BMW\Lexus\Mercedes killer" argument came up. The HELM market in 1989 and the HELM market in 2006 are completely different, so it's impossible to make a comparison of what Hyundai can do now vs. what Lexus did 17 years ago.

tagman · June 2006

It's Lexus they'll go after, not MB or BMW or Audi. LEXUS!

TagMan

blkhemi · June 2006

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT???? Did I read that you think the 300C is "too" powerful? And that Acura(maybe), Audi, and Infiniti are still in the dark after 15 years?

No, maybe you've been in the dark as all three makers are on the cutting edge of technology, especially Audi with their second to none engine/trans/AWD/interiors/design/safety/aluminum construction/elegance/etc.etc.etc. Need I say more?

You may as well jump on the bang wagon(which isn't all to hard to do on this thread), but to mention Audi as a non-player is like saying you nothing about the car bix at all. Do I even need to get into all of the racing ends of Audi, particularly LeMans, GP?? Probably not

BTW: You may want to walk a Caddy showroom now as they're no longer the laughing stock of the biz.

merc1 · June 2006

merc - The July Road and Track pits the GS450h against the 550i. Just the fact that the headline reads " Lexus GS 450H challenges BMW 550i" is a boost for Lexus as it places the GS in the same ball field . . . even if it loses . . . which it does. The upside to the GS is that the article is SO flattering to the GS. At one point the article says "The GS 450h offers tremendous upside and virtually no downside."

Yeah I saw this, but they didn't really compare the two with scoring like they usually do, but it was an interestin comparo. I think that if they used their usual criteria the GS450h would have been even further behind the 550i, IMO.

I do see your point about Lexus slowly "encroaching" on BMW's traditional turf, but there is only so far they can go there I think.

I suspect that the long rumored follow up to the SLR will indeed be the car to answer the Z6 and whatever Lexus' LFA turns out to be, these will be real sports cars not GTs. We're in total sync there!

M

merc1 · June 2006

So in short it seems that Mercedes and particularly BMW (this time around) got killed due to complicated driver-control interfaces. Why not have two different surveys then? One for reliability and another for design. Lumping them together is dumb IMO. MB and BMW are going to be wiped out on these surveys unless every single owner understands every aspect of the car. Because an owner doesn't understand something it is now called a design flaw? That reaches in to the highest echelon of rediculum, IMO.

Porsche owners are a passionate bunch and once the posers (i.e. the Cayenne buyers) are not the main focus I expect Porsche to excel because the 911/Boxster/Cayman buyers likely on average couldn't care any less about how the nav system works. All they care about is the "drive" which leads to a extremely high feel good factor, or at least enough of one to not ding Porsche come survey time. BMW has a group of buyers like that too, but apparently not enough of them to matter this year, especially if the 3-Series is the car causing the problems. Likely a lot more posers with 325i squawking more than any other group of BMW owners, again IMO. Mercedes I'm betting got really pulled down due to the new for 2006 ML/R/CLS combo??

M

merc1 · June 2006

I've said this before....I predict that 10 years from now, oldtime Lexus fans will be defending their favorite brand on these boards from an onslaught of Korean HELM fans, just as guys like merc1 might sometimes feel under seige from Lexus fans now.

Yes I agree that one day this will likely happen, but I think it will be a little longer than 10 years. Korean cars still haven't proven to be the equal of Japan's best over the long haul IMO. That and the luxury market being way different now compared to 1989.

M

garyh1 · June 2006

2008 Crown Majesta: This car was styled in the mold of the MB CLS. And I tell you, its a darn close match to the CLS, but looks quite nice, once you get past the copy thingy. The rear is not as droopy as the CLS, nor does it make rear passengers claustophobic. A nicer-looking variant of the CLS, IMO. Very nicely done by Toyota... Even spots the motor in the LS, and is similar to the LS460 in size. But priced real well at Y6Million - Y8Million, almost half the price of the 600hL. A steal, if you ask me. I'd even consider buying this car over the LS460 at this price.

2008 Crown Royal: Has the V6 3.5L 315HP DOHC motor, and is priced at Y3.5Million - Y6Million. This is the baby-LS looking car from front, but does not have the integrated exhaust into bumper rear, as in the LS and Majesta. Not a bad looking car, but don't expect to see one in the US, like forever... so my Japanese friends tell me. Sorry, Garyh.

Thanks, oac, for all this info. From what I had read previously, I thought the Crown Majesta and the Crown Royal were just different setups of the same car body (like GS300/GS430). From what you are saying, apparently they are actually totally different cars?

All I want for my wife's next car (replacing her aging E320, a very nice car) is something slightly smaller than the LS430 (but better space utilization than the GS), RWD or preferably AWD (unlike the ES), with lots of wood and luxury. Why won't Toy/Lex bring at least one of these Crowns here, and take the MB E head on and win. Couldn't they easily sell more than a couple thousand a month, which is all they are getting out of the GS? I don't get it.

At this point, I'm still thinking of another E for her. Or maybe we'll move to Japan so I can get her a Crown. :confuse:

garyh1 · June 2006

THE END OF THE WORLD APPROACHES: LJFLX AND MERC1 BOTH ARE IN COMPLETE AGREEMENT ON SOMETHING!!!!

It's so obvious as to be totally inexplicable how JD Powers could have made such a major mistake in so many ways. I am certainly interested in how well a car is built and inspected, which can be learned from statistical info from owners. But I am perfectly willing to make my own assessment of how well a NAV system works, or whether a touchscreen is easier for me to use than a push and twist knob. That I can learn from a test drive.

Combining subjective opinions on features with specific factual information on defects into one ranking is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard. JDP now gets my "worst automotive industry study" award formerly held by ALG on their "predicted residual value" studies.

We can only hope that they don't mess up the Vehicle Dependability Study (3 year old cars). That's where we'll see if MB has really turned around its reliability issues. It usually comes out at the end of June.

garyh1 · June 2006

so you disagree with my PE data which shows 17.49?

I would so love to get into these investment sidebars, but unfortunately as the General Counsel for my own securities broker-dealer, I'd have to fire myself if I started touting stocks on a public bulletin board! But you folks probably have observed that I typically share Len's tastes in many things (except I am not a big oenophile these days).

But Tagman, I can say that the P/E ratio you cite is based on historical TTM (Trailing Twelve Months) earnings, divided into a price which effectively includes the cash on hand that Len is adjusting out. I believe he was also looking out at projected future earnings. Using Thomson's projected earnings through 6/07, the Projected P/E is 15.8 (without any adjustment for the cash on hand).

Hope this helps to clarify.

merc1 · June 2006

Yeah I don't see why they couldn't have just come out with a "new" survey along with the traditional IQS. Mercedes and BMW are in deep chips under this new format. They'll have to really get with JDP (give $$$$) to get the details on this one.

I don't look for Mercedes to improve in the VDS until like 2008-09.

M

hpowders · June 2006

Let's face it, the only reasons the BMW 5 series lost all those comparos to the Infiniti M were the dislike of iDrive and the Bangle design.

if you read the numbers, the 5 was always on top with the performance stats.

ljflx · June 2006

No, technically it's the proper way. But when a stock gets to such a low attractive point I apply the cash/debt adjustment to get to a more accurate value based PE. As syswei noted you should also calculate (tax adjusted) interest income/expense but usually that's not much of an effect. Think about it - if you bought Microsoft for $224bln you are also buying $47 bln in cash so net net the real market cap of Microsoft is only $177bln right now. Would'nt you love to buy a $95K S550 with $25K of cash stored in the glove box?

ljflx · June 2006

By the time Hyundai is ready for this the real troubled cars will be Acura nad Infiniti - assuming they even get a leg off the ground. By the time they are ready - IF they are ready - Lexus will have moved much further up market. I don't see Hyundai happening, and I think you guys are all badly underestimating what it takes. Mazda tried to crack into this area and failed completely and abandoned it immediately because of the steep losses that lay ahead. Infiniti took 12 years to get real traction. Acura didn't have the horses and it had first dibs. You have a lot more to this than building cars. There's a dealer network distribution issue, a few years of losses (probably huge ones at that), market acceptance etc etc etc. I see no attempt at all or a feeble attempt and a quick pull back at best.

drtravel · June 2006

Let's face it, the only reasons the BMW 5 series lost all those comparos to the Infiniti M were the dislike of iDrive and the Bangle design.

if you read the numbers, the 5 was always on top with the performance stats.

If you reread the comparos it was a bit more than the dislike for the iDrive and Bangle design that led to the Infiniti's win. The 5 was not always on top with the peformance stats. The Infiniti actually WON the comparo, you're suggestion that the only reason Infiniti won was because BMW lost due to two characteristics isn't supported by the actual comparos.

I read where your next car may be a Lexus!? I don't know which will happen first - hpowders actually buying a non-BMW luxury car or hell freezing over. I'll ask my good buddy Al Gore. He'll give me the time table on the second event occurring : )

See you over in the boring LPS forum...

hpowders · June 2006

I'm not happy with the latest version of the BMW brakes.
Seems to be a problem across the line.
Same in the 330i as the 545. (As well as the GS 430).
Cannot modulate them to a smooth stop. Always a disconcerting "jerk" at the end- although the stopping power is very good.
Something's wrong when I prefer the $20k Sonata's brakes to the $60k 545's.

I will not lease another vehicle from BMW with these brakes.

Munich. You have been warned!

hpowders · June 2006

"The boring LPS forum"

Well, the action right now is in the HELM arena, what with the new S-Class and LS and valuation measures for stocks (?)

My thought on the latter. When a bear market ensues, it doesn't matter how good a stock's fundamentals are. It's price is going one way. SOUTH!

About 18 months ago, the action was at the LPS thread with the new 5-series, GS and M35/45 stimulating a lot of debate.
Nothing much new over there. Hence, all the talk about Bose speakers.

tagman · June 2006

lj -

pat · June 2006

Let's leave the stock market conversation for message boards where it's more appropriate ... thanks.

lexusguy · June 2006

I'm not happy with the latest version of the BMW brakes.

Might I suggest a M45? Excellent and very natural brakes

hpowders · June 2006

I tested the M's brakes and they were best in the LPS class.
I will drive one in early 2008. My lease is up at the end of July, 2008.
I hear leasing deals on Infinitis are pretty good.

bfeng7 · June 2006

It says many things.
(1) IF you want to have a successful company, one that makes enough money to allow your engineers to do cool things like a high-bandwidth active suspension, or to be the first to introduce efficient class D amps into cars, or to do the first reverse motor Nd subwoofer (huge ones can be fit into doors without losing things like map pockets), etc.

THEN you have to also know how to make money. Bose home products are well designed in the sense that they give people what they want for a price they are willing to pay. There's nothing evil, unscrupulous about it. It is not bad engineering. It's actually excellent engineering for a particular product focus. I'm still waiting for you to show me a speaker that has better performance than a Jewel cube (similar output/efficiency, better bandwidth). That little sucker's well designed for what it is supposed to do. Me, I'd much rather have the larger cubes in the lower priced LS systems, but you know ... the market is tell Bose that it will pay more for smaller than for better sound ... above a given threshold of sound quality.

John

designman · June 2006

Might I suggest a M45? Excellent and very natural brakes

Did you have to? We'll be hearing about the M45 in his new-purchase casserole for the next two years.

Hpowders, get yourself a Boxster and a Camry for a refreshing change of pace. I've heard of 6'4" linebacker types fitting happily in the Boxster and of course the new Camry has been annointed by the HELMs yentas... pardon me... I mean HELMs geniuses. That's quite a seal of approval!

:P

hpowders · June 2006

Don't knock the new Camry SE V-6.
Looks nice, doesn't have the nauseatingly ugly faux wood of the other Camrys and reviews have been positive-"the best-handling Camry ever."
It just might be a "Yenta Contenda."

I seriously don't think my 6'2" frame-mostly legs, will comfortably fit in a Boxster.
I can barely get into a Miata's front seat. The Boxster has more room?

designman · June 2006

Yes, definitely. Try it, I'd like to hear your impressions.

dhanley · June 2006

I have a hard time fitting in most of the roadsters, but the boxster fits me great.

hpowders · June 2006

After doing about 2 hours of research, I believe the Cayman S would be more to my liking.
It's basically more practical.
You wrote in the Cayman thread that you expect the price to settle at around $10k below MSRP.
That would be like the price of my 545.
I will drive one, but not yet. Too soon.
Would never lease one.
Better rates on financing.
Intriguing!

tagman · June 2006

I seriously don't think my 6'2" frame-mostly legs, will comfortably fit in a Boxster.

I'm 6'1", about 210 - 215 lbs, athletic build, and I was OK for the most part in the Boxster for over 6 years. A little tight, but acceptable. My biggest complaint was that I always felt a little too tightly squeezed laterally in the seat, but the way I drove it, it was sometimes a darned good thing to hold me in place!

If you are OK without the convertible, then the Cayman S is the way to go. If it had a bit more power it would outperform the 911 in all aspects. Porsche knows this and it's the primary reason they've held back a bit on the ponies.

So . . . you've got the sports car itch, too? I'm starting to look as well.

TagMan

drfill · June 2006

Didn't mean to blow your mind this time.

Just reporting the facts, that Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, and Audi fit oh so comfortably into Luxury Cardom's "2nd-tier".

Or would you honestly call them HELMs?

Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes are the big dogs in this sandbox.

DrFill

blkhemi · June 2006

Audi, would I call it a HELM? UMM.., YEAH!!

The A8 has all the beans and more of what it takes to compete in this arena. Sales or no, the A8 is a very key player.

Now Acura- If they won't build a legit(not a V-6 FWD-biased car off of an Accord platform) full-sizer with a RWD/V8, then they can fuggitaboutit. While nice and a pleasure to drive, the RL is way out of the realm, especially with it's $50k asking price which gets you into a V8-equipped M45, speaking of Infiniti...

When the Q45 came out in it's 3rd iteration, the marketing was DOA. Why would you market a HELM just for having the brightest HID lights in the world? In this crowded field, it takes a bunch more than that to be a viable player. Infiniti is in a pivitol moment now, and it has to decide to either revitalize the Q-Ship or abandon it, and the rest of the line is enjoying the benefit of redo's/refreshes, why can't the most costly car reak the same benefit?

Caddy, with the exception of the glorified Escalade and the super-powerful (and probably best kept secret in super-sedans) the STS-v and the all to fun CTS-v, the maker, while on a good path, has to do more. I think there are a lot of people that are growing tired of the "Art & Science" styling. They'll definetely have to take the DTS upmarket(and RWD Sigma-platform please) to compete with the big boys and not granny's other favorite, the Buicklexus.

As you know, I'm a huge Audiphile. The company is blazen with technology and is usually one of the first ot introduce new innovations to the market. No the A8 doesn't sell by the boatloads like S and LS', but judging from other owners on this forum and elsewhere , the A8 is able to compete with best.

hpowders · June 2006

I have always put Porsche vehicles in my "subconscious", because why torture myself thinking about a vehicle that I could barely fit into?

But Designman told me otherwise so he got me to do some net research and it seems like the Cayman/Boxster has the driver's seat slung low enough that people like "us" can actually be comfortable.
I was also happily surprised to learn that the Cayman S has a combined 14 cubic feet of trunk space.
I do a lot of airport "duty" and my wife's suitcases are a top priority (if you catch my drift).

Well I still have 2 more years with the 545. Nothing I can do about it now.
At that time, good deals should be available, perhaps as Designman says, $10k under MSRP.

tagman · June 2006

DrFill, you said:

Just reporting the facts, that Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, and Audi fit oh so comfortably into Luxury Cardom's "2nd-tier".

Or would you honestly call them HELMs?

Lexus, BMW, and Mercedes are the big dogs in this sandbox.

Doc, we have to disagree again, I'm afraid . . . and so soon, too.

The Audi is clearly a HELM. Absolutely. (And so is the Quattroporte.) Even if they are not the sales leaders.

TagMan

reality2 · June 2006

Most agreed with you Tagman. I mean it is obvious that Audi is a HELM, and has been for more than century or so (that is if DrFill actually takes the time to study and learn before making ignorant comments). {here is a bit of historical fact: August Horch (founder of Audi and Horch in 1899 was Benz's chief engineer for vehicle development in 1896 before going on his own} Rather than going through all the factual plethora of reasons why Audi is one of the "Big Dogs in the Sandbox" which would take up a whole book (and there are plenty of those available to enlighten yourselfs), I assume that DrFill is basing his discussion on sales numbers because any rational and informed person could not say that based off the vehicles or off Audi's pedigree. No matter how one slices and dices sales numbers based off total sales, model sales, engine model type sales, etc, the bottom line is that you have to look at the global picture as I have always said. Currently, BMW and MB are the leading sellers of HELM based off numbers and model types (again, I am not stressing comparisions of models to each other and so forth - although this would not be problem either as Audi has done quite well in comparisions against its tier 1 competitors winning a majority of them). They sell about 1.2-1.3 million units world-wide. Audi sells about 900,000 units (with about 1/2 the model range) globally and Lexus about 300-350,000 units globally. The A6 is the world's global sales leader in terms of premium vehicles and Audi rules Europe in direct competition where Audi does extremely well(especially in the A6 and A8 range). Although the European "Big Dogs (BMW, MB, Audi) trade the sales lead back and forth month to month. On the other hand, Lexus fails to register in Europe where it is seen more of a TIER 2 brand even behind Jaguar. No, Audi may not sell as much vehicles in the US, though in comparision, it does substantially much better than Lexus does in Europe. That means that Jaguar is not a HELM at all according to this logic of sales numbers. Also, a HELM has to be distinguished by it motorsport program. As it quite obvious to anyone astute is that Audi is the leading powerhouse in this regard with its extradorinary R8s, R10s, and A4 Taxis, not to mention its many wins in various motor sport competitions. However, I am digressing here as it would be quite easy to begin going point by point on how Audi is one the strongest HELM marquees in the world whether it is direct comparisions, tradition, technology and performance, heritage, motorsports, build quality (easily beating MB and BMW in almost every survey), culture, enthusiasts, price points, engine design (12 cylinder, 10 cylinder, etc) and the list could go on and on and on.

If anything in the US, Audi has been too quiet and too slow in terms of marketing, and has made some missteps in its past here that haven't helped. Also, Audi has been the victim of blatant misrepresentations and false claims by a certain news magazine causing hugh damage its reputation in the past. But this perception is false as Audi has proven itself many times over to be a true HELM.

I just keep wondering why this issue keeps coming up regarding Audi's HELM creditials. Maybe it is the lack of understanding in the US or just some sophmoric thinking by those that wish to degrade the marquee for whatever insecure or very ignorant reason. It just gets a bit lame listening to such BS over and over again when it is never based in fact.

merc1 · June 2006

Though I feel Mercedes' toes are being stepped on ever so slightly in that post, I agree with nearly every word of it. Both BMW and Mercedes are set to feel the heat from Audi like never before if their future plans are realized, especially in Europe. Here in the U.S. though I think it would take a slight miracle to get Audi to BMW/MB volumes and status I think. Audi just doesn't have the lineup.

M

merc1 · June 2006

All this about where these brands rank has made for good debates both here and on the News and Views boards.

While I do agree that Audi makes a hell of a HEL sedan, they aren't really a HELM brand at least in the U.S., IMO. Neither is Lexus in the grand scheme of things, because you can't just rule one market in sales and call yourself some type of world standard. Neither brand offers much out of the sedan catergories with any real pizzaz to it. Lexus is bascially all cooking sedans and SUVs and Audi save the S4 Cabriolet doesn't really offer anything different either. That said both Audi and Lexus realize this and are set to change this with the addition of mainly sports cars, coupes and hi-po versions of their regular cars - things that IMO make a true HELM, not just one sedan competes with MB and BMW at the top end. I think Audi will really have corrected this once they get a real coupe (like the CLK or 6-Series) to market along with the R8 and of course the RS4 and S8.

The Tiers:

You can debate where they rank within the tier, but that 1st Tier is comprised of: Rolls-Royce, Bentley, Maybach, Aston-Martin, Maserati, Ferrari, Lamborghini and now Bugatti. Maybach is there on price, but not recognition obviously, Lambo has never matched Ferrari's road cars until now, but they still don't have any racing pull....like I said with each one of these you can debate their ranking within this tier all day long, but that these are the most prestigious names in the automotive business isn't really debatable. Whether it is price, hp, exclusivity, styling or just a plain old "wow" factor, this group produces the world's largest group of lust objects that even the most automotively ignorant person in captivity would lust after. Personally I would say that Ferrari is the world's most prestigous name for several reasons, but that is another story.

Then you have again IMO, Tier 2 brands like Porsche, Mercedes and BMW in that order. On this board we tend to judge BMW and Mercedes by their S/7-Series sedans, but BMW and especially Mercedes are for more than just their sedans. The both compete (for better or worse in F1) and DTM, something like Germany's Nascar. Porsche is Germany's gold standard in both their cars and seemingly thier quaility (for the survey worshipers can't really knock Porsche on that either) alike. That and all their gleaming corporate achievements puts them as #1 in German hardware, IMO. Mercedes makes so many different toys for the rich, large coupes, medium sized coupes, large roadsters, small roadsters, 4-seat cabriolets, a military derived relic of an SUV, the SLR, and a hi-po version of nearly everything they build. This latter wide ranging practice is at odds with BMW which tends to only build M versions of select vehicles which brings me to the 3rd member of this class which make it arguable as to who is 2nd to Porsche, but their place in this tier is without doubt. BMW, intensely focused and since 2002 not afraid to make a decision or take a new and controversial path and much better run company than Mercedes is now, but not quite as well-run as Porsche.

Tier 3 is comprised of what I call the up-n-coming brands, the brands to watch, or the ones that are trying to regain their former glory: Lexus, Audi, and Cadillac. The first is brand new, largely synthetic with zero heritage, but their market stides can't be overlooked, but there are no lust objects in the lineup, nothing to really get worked up over for the enthusiast, it appeals largely to the allways logical folks, nice, but boring. Lexus, having a good following in the sedan segments with one sedan that is an outstanding competitor to the Euros, now is set to work on the appeal factor with their upcoming rumored sports car and hi-po versions of certain sedans. The second is not new, but is just now coming into its own both here and especially in Europe. No longer content to play second fiddle to MB/BMW they're bursting at the seams with Motorsport accomplishments, new technology, and a model plan that looks to place them on equal footing with the other two German luxury car giants by matching them model for model and even going them one further, think R8. Audi is being championed by more and more enthusiasts that have given Audi the chance to prove their mettle. Arguably the one to watch the most out of Germany's big 3 luxury car makers. Arguably the best looking lineup (inside and out) of cars in the luxury car market. Then you have Cadillac. The former "Standard of the World" that was nearly obliterated by the Germans in the eighties and the Japanese in the nineties. Their new "V" series cars, say what you will about them, offer something no Japanese luxury namplate offers, real performance versions of their everyday cars complete with bespoke engines and styling and upgraded interiors. You have to admit that a 100K XLR-V would have been unthinkable just a few years ago, whether or not it is selling or not (though that is of some importance as to indicate whether or not the market has accepted that idea) it is there. Again, as with all the other Tiers here you can debate that Lexus is more prestigious than Audi in this country and that Audi is waist and body above Lexus everywhere else, or that Cadillac is the oldest etc. etc., but one thing is clear here...overall none of the names in this Tier match the names in Tier above it in overall status. No matter how rapidly that is changing it hasn't happened yet.

Well after these you have Tier 4 brands: Infiniti, Acura, Volvo. These guys specialize in nice, even some segment leading entry-level products, but they quickly fall out of favor when moving up into the mid-size segment until recently with Infiniti. Acura just can't have it with the RL and Volvo's S8 really doesn't fit the bill in the mid-size segment either, though a very good car it just doesn't bring a big enough gun to the fight. None of them have a HEL sedan or any acceptance in that arena which relegates them to this class, IMO. Again it is debatable that Infiniti is more than Acura and some might say that Cadillac belongs here due to their miserable previous 20+ years, but I think you get the point. Acura can't do anything beyond nice entry-level cars and Infiniti has now been able to sell anything beyond the G35/I35 price bracket so Infiniti still takes a back seat to Lexus because Lexus is still the only Japanese brand able to sell a high-end sedan to high-end Euro sedan intenders. These guys just don't make it onto any shopping lists when people start spending serious money.

M

tagman · June 2006

Most agreed with you Tagman. I mean it is obvious that Audi is a HELM

reality2 - Thanks for the agreement and a very well-written post.

However, the tier heirarchy that merc1 has so incredibly laid out for us is something to seriously consider, and I will take some time to do so. For the most part it is quite obvious and makes clear easy sense.

The contraversial part will be the Lexus and the Audi. It is hard to disagree with merc's perspective here and I'll keep an open mind. I do agree with the pecking order of the tier for the most part, although I would not put Maybach ahead of Ferrari. But at this point in history, although not as legendary, I have to say that the Lexus and Audi are finally deserving of being considered a HELM.

TagMan

drfill · June 2006

I don't exactly know where this sudden Derek Jeter-like adoration of Audi came from, but I don't see Audi as anything superior to Acura, Infiniti, or Cadillac.

Sales are a big factor in how I would tier the marques, but I SERIOUSLY doubt the perception, IN THE U.S., is that Audi is on the same tier as Lexus, in quality, prestige, or value.

Put it this way. Cream always rises to the top. Has Audi risen in any perception, real or otherwise, in the last 15 years? I like the A8 myself (Me and Howard Stern), and when I sit in one, I'm always impressed, but if it sits on the lot for 90-100 days at a time, how good can it be?

Spawning a dud like the VW Photon doesn't help it's perception! It says something about the car, or it says something about the marque. I choose the latter.

Regarding Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, Maserati, etc., I didn't count those as I consider these exotic sports car companies, and not luxury car marques like Mercedes and BMW. I think there should be a distinction between the mainstream luxury marques and the exotic niche marques.

I haven't heard anything to make me believe Audi has any intrinsic value over Cadillac, for example.

How I tiered the marques was based on desirability, perceived value, upward mobility, and sales/days supply.

I don't see anyone eating off of Mercedes, BMW, or Lexus plate. That's the Top-tier of NON-EXOTIC HELMs. They are the predators, the ones that the 2nd and 3rd-tier companies worry about, and try to build up to, but almost always fail to match.

Cadillac, Acura, Infinit, and Audi can handle the 2nd-tier, but each has significant flaws the Top-tiers do not which limit their growth.

Lincoln has 3rd-tier all to itself.

Anyone I've overlooked is either a niche exotic marque, or is overlooked by not just me, but by America.

I might be wrong, but I doubt it!

Back to you, guys!

DrFill

reality2 · June 2006

Couldn't disagree more! All comparisions by various automotive journals always compare Audi to BMW and MB, rarely if ever to Lexus, Acura or Infiniti - this is just an example. Just check out the latest Automobile magazine comparing the S6, M5, and E55. A very interesting read. Let see I am highly upward mobile, yet I prefer an Audi over $100,000 with no problem. Again, your point is not very tight as are the many things you speak.

The other points by Merc1 and others are very good and defninitely put in way that makes interesting and valid points. It just shows what great selection we consumers have of great vehicles.

reality2 · June 2006

One more thing: Where do you get the numbers that an A8 sits 90 to 100 days. Actually, Audi day supply dropped to less than 30 in the early part of the this year. This was too tight for Audi dealers, so Audi ramped up Days Supply. Furthermore, the A8 is very difficult to get as Audi limits its numbers. It is hard to find one in my neck of the woods unless you want one stock. All this was printed in Automotive News while back. Your information seems a bit off. You are wrong, and I don't doubt it at all!! Everyone assumes that Audi has as much vehicles available in the US as do the others. This isn't the case. Early part of the year, many model derivitives were not available due to demand. No, I do not forsee Audi selling as much vehicles in the US as MB or BMW, but then really so what. That may not be necessary for them to grow the brand in the US. And they are launching many new models and versions including very high performance derivatives including the A7 (S7 and RS7) coupe plus the RS6 to just name a few. Just give it time and you won't be so cocky.

docnukem · June 2006

I think drfill is looking at things differently than others. One point of view is perception; another is heritage; others would include quality, rarity, etc.

Doc is looking at things from the U.S. consumer perception (even if he didn't specify "U.S." initially--I can't recall). I have to agree with him on this point. Before everyone jumps on me, too, let me explain. Many HELM buyers are like us on these boards and know somewhat more than the typical consumer. However, many HELM buyers and far more of the general U.S. public do not know what many here do (particularly merc1, he is a mutant when it comes to all things MB/German

). If you were to take 100 people off the street, IMHO, most would put Audi one (or maybe even two) tiers below MB, Lexus, and BMW.

This is NOT to say that Audi has this perception globally, nor is it to say it lacks anything in heritage, quality, etc. It is U.S. perception, and the world knows what kind of imbeciles we can be.

ljflx · June 2006

Will be a colossal mistake - IMO

http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/06/07/pluggedin_fortune/index.html

tagman · June 2006

Will be a colossal mistake - IMO

Not "SMART", IMO. (sorry, couldn't resist

)

TagMan

drfill · June 2006

Speaking of ignorance, quoting me days supply on an AWD model from last Winter means you have no idea what days supply for it is NOW! OF COURSE days supply for it will be low in the Winter, up North.

Since I now live in the Sun Belt, supply far outreaches demand for the A8. Fewer are shipped here, but still they sit quite a while. Haven't seen one on the road in months. Your days supply might be less. Mine is definitely quite high, especially now that it's 95 degrees!

When I lived in New York, I'd see a few. But AWD has little value, and hurt acceleration and economy down here.

I could give a Rat's tail what Audi does outside of the US! This isn't Double-A ball! You want status of Lexus and BMW, you have to earn it. Audi hasn't done that here. Quality studies, sales, and US perception (going back to the Audi 5000 "Unintended acceleration" debacle) say 2nd-Tier, US, loud & proud.

Plenty of companies make very fine cars.

It takes a little more to be 1st-Tier.

As far as US being imbeciles, let's keep politics out of this, shall we?

DrFill

drfill · June 2006

I left out Jaguar in my Tier system.

I'd have to put it 2nd, or make Lincoln 4th-tier, and Jaguar 3rd-tier. Call it a lower-2nd-tier!

Dynamically, the XJ may be near the top of it's class, but talk about hearing a collective YAWN from the public! No interest or buzz. I could tell it was gonna be a dud at the 2003 NYIAS.

X-type and S-type have drawn similar apathy.

Ford is giving it the Lincoln marketing strategy.

Neglect. The Jaguar name USED TO mean something!

DrFill

lexusguy · June 2006

Volvo's S8 really doesn't fit the bill in the mid-size segment either, though a very good car it just doesn't bring a big enough gun to the fight.

There's still a little that remains to be seen there. I dont think there are any full on road tests of the new S80 yet. Things certainly don't look good though. For starters, its built on a very generic duty Ford global platform. Fine for MPVs, not so much for chasing BMWs. Volvo is not known for their brilliant suspension tuning.

Then there's the engine problems. If the new S80 were going against the 528\540i and E320\E430, they'd be doing great. This is 2006 though. A brand new 3.2L inline 6 that only makes 235hp? Hyundai's got more power than that from its 6s. Then there's the much talked about V8, which despite 4.4L of displacement, makes a very last generation 311hp. Volvo says 0-60 in 6.5 seconds for the V8, and a very sluggish 8 seconds for the I6. Not good enough.

oac · June 2006

Just got back home and still starry-eyed, for now. This story actually had me thinking a wee bit. That it may be the deal of a lifetime for Merc1 to step up and be that third party to market and sell an MB product. That should get Merc1 a table at MB's party, and who better understands anything MB and German cars, anyway ? Hey, Jim... dust up your idea board, get creative with financing (talk to Len first), and see if you could pull together a team to finance your operation and running of a network of SMART car dealerships selling these cars here in the US. You never know... Wouldn't you rather be working for yourself, in an area you love so much ?

lexusguy · June 2006

I agree. I just dont see them working in the US. The comparisons to Scion and Mini dont really work. Those cars have practicality that the Smarts dont. They're just small.

blkhemi · June 2006

Doc, we'll just have to agree to disagree on your path of destruction towards the Audi brand, and others. It doesn't matter which bracket you or merc puts the brand in, I own one and I know that it is a very commendable car, and yes a true HELM(so of the "legit" HELM's shouldn't even be considered onw). Perception? I could give a hoot what someone driving the everyday LS430 or S500/550 thinks of my very rare W-12.

BTW: Going back a few pages, wasn't it some of you guys that said the BMW should kill of the 7-Series as it isn't considered a HELM here in the US and that it is "destroying" the brand? Very interesting, how quickly we forget...

Sales? No the US sales are not the best(at least for the A8( but with a very short lot life) as the refreshened A4's are increasingly hard to get with only a 8 day lot life, 14 for the A6, which is above average for luxury makes), and I know you have blinders on as to what happens off of our shores, but let me inform you that often times, the A8 is the best selling car in all of Europe, and with the car having an onslaught of taking many of the other "established" cars territory in developing countries in the Middle East(think UAE, Dubai, others), they are more than just a hiccup on the luxury screen.

BTW: Where are you getting this 100 day supply from? Most parts of the country, you can't even obtain an A8 because there sold out and Audi ships to the US in limited quantities, something that will change in '09. I waited for 3 months to get mine(7 months now with the S8), and I'm so glad I did as this is the best car that I've ever ordered.

And as Reality so eloquently pointed out, the Audi brand has much history like MB. So the heritage is there.

So for the tiers. Sure in the US, the Audi tends to rank behind the other makes, which if just wholly based on sales data, then the whole chart thing is oblivious and right out unnecessary. And putting Audi in a bracket with a maker that only makes V6(minivan and/or car platforms) FWD cars shows just how rigged and corrupted this whole debate is. And for the whole perception thing, for Cadillac, which is enjoying some of the best sales in recent months, has some of the best quality studies as of late(not thinking of 10-20 years ago), and who's ressurection is truly remarkable, I don't think that people should write them off so easily.

But here's the knocker: Why would a top tier tap into a lower tier to help them(a performance company needing help from a lowly, "semi", unremarkable, no-mans luxury company) on tranny's? They should have all of what it takes to build the perfect tranny seeing how they're the most profitable in the world. This definetely proves everything at the surface is surely not what is at the bottom....

tagman · June 2006

Doc, you've lost your perspective.

Anyone can put a tier together based upon sales, and further qualify that those sales be in the US.

You have so badly convoluted the meaning of HELM that I'm seeing it as a JD Powers IQ study with new rules and new results. HELM isn't just about sales and marketing. It's also about the very core, the build, the heritage, the history, and an achieved status, among other things that you have paid absolutely no attention to.

To your surprise perhaps, I have defended Lexus as a recent qualifier of HELM status, but if you are going to demonstrate a failure to recognize Audi here, I think I will have to take the side of defending Audi at this point, and perhaps a little defense of Jaguar as well, although it does appear that you gave the XJ (which would include the Portfolio, of course) the HELM recognition it deserves.

This entire recent thread ignites a debate on the core definition of a HELM. Heck, someone posted that if it's too exotic, it doesn't qualify. Who decides that? Suddenly the Quattroporte is no longer a HELM. And of all things, it seems that AUDI is the one getting beat up here! Very surprising, IMO.

The only one that should be in question here (and I have loosely defended) is LEXUS!

TagMan

pat · June 2006

Suddenly the Quattroporte is no longer a HELM.

Yes, very odd. How could a Maserati not be HIGH END??

I saw one the other day on the road. It's quite possibly the most gorgeous car I've ever seen in my life. I was having a hard time keeping my eyes where they needed to be because I couldn't stop staring/drooling at it! :P

blkhemi · June 2006

Excellent point, Tag. Ever so harshly does Audi get shuffled around. If Audi isn't a HELM, then how is it then it can command $70k-$140k for a car that is not a true luxury cruiser as the rest? That would make it a very expensive poser, one that is selling very briskly(currently, the car costs more in it's native Germany than it does here, despite the extra D&D charges.)

Yes Tag, the Doc has finally taken the big pill. To exclude pedigrees like Audi and Jag(sales not withstanding) is like saying they never existed in my book. Jag, with it's rich history in both racing and long serving loyal fan base, should definetely be included in any discussion. Sure the Jag had it's fare share of electric gremlins. But there you have MB with a just now renewed since of quality(dare I crack open the book on the W220's many mishaps and quality disasters), BMW with some of the worst reliablity ratings on Earth, Lexus with the whole oil slugde build up/tranny failures in pre-'01 cars, and Maser who dissappeared for a while and they had they're fair share of quality probes. Audi is not with exception. Every company has had some sort of mishap that has nearly destroyed their name. But because of this, one is HELM acceptable but one wholly based on sales isn't? This proves that some people have even more to learn about cars and the market.

And yes, Lexus should be in question. Where's the heritage? Where is the pedigree that most of the Europeans(even Caddy) has? Not saying that it shouldn't be a HELM, but if this is the basis of the conversation, then the HELM list just got even shorter.

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