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325i (E90 & E46) 3,644 29,276 4,176 25,539
325xi (E90 & E46) 1,093 9,418 2 2,929
330i (E90 & E46) 1,320 10,752 2,185 10,416
5 Series 3,474 31,309 4,381 27,765
E-CLASS 4,479 5,506 25,199 25,940
S-CLASS 2,233 1,469 17,817 9,101
M-CLASS 2,446 3,526 16,772 17,816
GS 300 1,776 2,785 13,125 15,164
GS 430/450h 299 589 2,443 3,524
IS 250/350 4,848 516 31,794 3,133
The Camry Hybrid, which went on sale in late April, reported sales of 5,023 units in July.
The Prius gas-electric hybrid mid-size sedan posted July sales of 11,114, an increase of 19.3 percent.
The Highlander Hybrid gas-electric mid- size SUV reported sales of 2,784 units for the month. The Highlander and Highlander Hybrid posted combined July sales of 11,999.
Lexus best-ever July at 26,969.
Toyota best Month EVER! Up 17.7% over last year!:shades:
GX 470 1,969 2,847 13,728 19,080
Chrysler 300 83,772 84,167 0% 0%
Liberty 79,808 103,229 -22% -23%
Grand Cherokee 82,995 131,865 -37% -37%
Source: TheAutochannel.com
Interesting that Chrysler's big models are either flat (first time for the 300), or down significantly.
Camry Hybrid made up almost 15% of all Camry sales
Prius is still at or above last years record levels.
If you compare like models, BMW is less than 1500 units ahead of Lexus IS. The 325/330i/325ix comes to around 6000.
Everybody feels the hit when gas prices spike. Lexus, Mercedes and BMW SUVs are down big.
OOps!
Forgot Infiniti M numbers. YTD, 100 units behind Lexus GS! Can't get any closer than that!
I guess what I'm trying to say is.....
Lexus/Toyota rules! Woo-Hoo! :shades:
DrFill
The statement I made (and you re-stated tonight) regarding the affordability of the LS vs. the S is a matter of economics. Pure and simple. From a pure economic perspective, which ljflx well understands, a more expensive car is generally a deeper and more difficult reach in the pocket . . . period. It doesn't get more complicated than that, as some others here have posted.
We don't need all the twisted baloney about "creative financing" here, just basic fundamentals.
And all this talk about "insecurity" is ridiculous. Is it insecure to purchase a HELM, or just certain HELMs? Or is it insecurity that feeds the need for a reliable car, as one might be too insecure and fearful regarding the horrible risk associated with owning a car that might actually be more enjoyable to drive? All absurd, IMO.
TagMan
As a businessman and investor, you should understand something I will say here . . . you believe in the stock market, and you know that it is like a yo-yo that is traveling up a mountain. Ups and downs, ups and downs, but the climb becomes apparent over time.
This forum is the same. Ups and downs and ups and downs, but in the end, you are part of something bigger and better.
Please consider my words and please stay.
TagMan
How could anyone prefer a Lexus, when there are BMW's and Porsches out there?
I don't see the rational of hiding behind the reliability argument.
Thousands drive BMW's and MB's with very few problems.
There is an irrational fear there, or perhaps, a masochistic urge to deprive oneself of true driving pleasure, which if true, is a real shame, IMO.
Don't let 'em get the best of you. I got your back, kid!
Take a few days off and come back next week refreshed!
I'm good, real good, but the team needs you, man...
DrFill
Please consider hitting the "pause" button for a moment.
Being "right" or "winning" is worthless when people stop participating. I'm not sure exactly what has happened here, as I was out this evening, but I am not glad to see our friend from joisey is considering leaving this forum. I would miss both the agreements and disagreements with him, and I think you would as well. So . . . I'm not in the game right now, my friend. Sorry.
TagMan
I do believe this influenced his decision.
Using a spelled-out curse word to describe someone is uncalled for. Probably what he was referring to as "trash", which I would surely agree with.
I would like to see Len back here tonight with the realization that he is an important part of this forum, and I am dissapointed in him if he quits on all of us. He's made a mistake or two in all his years, I'm sure, so maybe it's time to take a deep breath and get back on the horse.
I suggest less finger-pointing and raising the "class" level up a notch on this forum . . . with the INCLUSION of lj.
Whudda ya say, Len?
TagMan
No fun in that.
The penalty box door has opened.
Time to get back on the ice!
This is my last request . . . because as you realize, I'm putting myself out there in the public domain to bring you back into this forum with your friends. Sure, some folks can be rough around the edges, but better to show them the high road and set the example.
You have a lot to give and contribute here . . . and you know I am telling the truth.
As I always say at my office . . . "Failure is not an option."
TM
Just for you because I like you very much and respect you equally. Hpowders made a post that he subsequently editted out. But I saw it before he did the edit. It was tasteless and a lot more classless than what he referenced you to. He knows damm well what I am referring to. I want no part of discussions like that. I'll check the board in a few weeks. If it has some class and professionalism I'll come back. If it has the bad posting I've seen recently, particularly tonight (some of which you can't see unfortunately), but not limited to tonight, I'm long gone. I deal with professionals and I deal professionally with people. Classless behavior is not something I will ever be apart of. It's that simple.
My post to Merc was sincere - he and I have had phenomenal disagreements for years now that always ended respectfully and we've been penpals here for 5 or 6 years now.
Taking things to a personal level on a board about cars is absurd.
TM
Equally this constant harping about leasing as if it applies to everyone, makes no sense either. What is so hard to grasp about the fact that not everyone leases? For people to finance or purchase with cash price does matter. If you don't believe it then ask some on these boards who still "buy" their cars as opposed to renting (i.e. leasing) them. If you think that price has absolutely nothing to do with or not bearing on the LS430's sales then you're just plain lost in space. Being cheaper than a comparable Mercedes is Lexus' MO. Period. What difference does it make if MB builds more models, when they're all priced way above anything from Lexus? That cancels out any notion that the S-Class should be outselling a car that sells on average for upper E-Class/5-Series money.
And when all those people who cross shop a more expensive S-class and the cheaper LS and end up paying about the same for leasing the LS, what does that say about the Lexus LS???
Same as above re-stated. What for I dunno.
M
Kinda outdated example there LG. The new E63 and current SLK55 have proven that AMG can make them corner nearly as well as anything from BMW's M. Even the European press have put AMGs on top more than once now, and 2 European publications have put the ML63 over the Porsche Cayenne Turbo S. These victories were based on the AMG products being so close to the others in handling, but also being able to provide superior comfort at the same time. Shockingly enough EVO even put the CLS55 over the M5 and our favorite the Quattroporte Sport GT because it was so well rounded.
The outgoing CL likely wasn't initially developed with that kind of power in mind, but nothing has been said like that about the new S65 (relative to the old one). AMG is definitely making much better handling cars now than they did when the CL65 first appeared.
M
No it is still BMW, MB and Audi in that order when it comes to worldwide sales. For the first 1/2 of 2006:
BMW: 597,120 (+11.0%) ... Group (incl MINI & RR): 698,470 (+8.0%)
MB: 565,300 (+13.1%) ... Group (incl smart): YTD 627,300 (+8.7%)
Audi: 463,494 (+9.8%)
Funny thing is that MB outsold BMW last month here in the U.S. and they're growning a little bit more than BMW so far this year worldwide.
M
Anybody who gets an S Class can get an LS, but not all LS buyers can step up to the price and prestige of the magnificent MB S Class- unanimously praised as one of the greatest sedans in the world-and priced accordingly.
BINGO! What a busy day you've had! Was it really the BMW sales numbers like others have suggest? :P
M
Yeah we often disagree, but we did manage to find some middle ground in between there (sometimes), and more importantly I have always understood where you're coming from, even if I didn't always agree with it. That said, I don't want you to leave. You know how it goes around here, usually I'll incite a riot and then a few days it quiets down, but this time it wasn't me...lol! However if you feel you must leave, don't make it permanent. Please check back in because the board wouldn't be the same without you!
I haven't seen this many posts in one day around here in years! I'm still reading through them all.
M
Mercedes' SUVs as a group are NOT down this year Doc. The GL, R are adding in and making up for the ML's downturn this year.
The Mercedes-Benz portfolio of luxury light trucks -- M-Class, R-Class, GL-Class and G-Class -- continues to demonstrate impressive gains with a significant 62.3 percent increase over last July and a 91 percent increase
over the same period last year (35,413 v. 18,544).
Source
M
I see that sad spectacle, especially late model MB's stuck on the side of the road, every couple weeks or so.
How could anyone prefer luxury cars, when motorcycles are out there to put you far more connected to the road than any four-wheel BMW or Porsche?
Thousands drive BMW's and MB's with very few problems.
And thousands do have problems
. . . a masochistic urge to deprive oneself of true driving pleasure . . .
or a masochistic urge to get one's own stuffings beat up by the road day-in and day-out, between unscheduled get-togethers with the mechanics.
Seriously, how can anyone even pick a luxury family sedan like the 5 series if the be-all end-all goal and definition of "driving pleasure" is vehicle responsiveness?? It's a frigging family sedan for crying out loud.
"One of the"?? So is the LS, what's your point?
The only meaningful price for a product is the lowest commonly attainable price. There is no point in discussing MSRP for a Cadillac, for example. Lease subsidies are just a another way of mfr handing out rebate offers . . . some don't take advantage of it . . . most do. That's what matters.
The fastest AMG in the hands of the Stig (not including the SLR), is the CLS55, which managed a 1:26.9. Faster than the M3, but not as fast as the M5 or the Audi. They haven't track tested the SLK55 or E63 yet. Interestingly, the fastest car they've ever had on the track isn't German, or Italian, but Swedish, the Koenigsegg CCX.
Yeah that was the video I posted a while back on the CLS55 AMG. While I enjoy that show a great deal, I don't like it when they track test a car in the rain.
I really think AMG has turned a corner literally because Auto Zeitung got the facelifted SL55 AMG around the track faster (by 1.6 secs) than the BMW M6. This caused quite an uproar on some of the other boards I frequent. Auto, Motor und Sport also recently put the E63 AMG over the M5. I can't link the article scans because they're on another mesg board, but here is the summary:
1st Place: Mercedes-Benz E63 AMG - The power of the new V8 leaves you breathless. The E63 AMG doesn't lack dynamic handling. Impressive, the comfort. The E63 is an allround talent.
2nd Place: BMW M5 - The M5's V10 lacks the punch of the E63 AMG in midrange acceleration, but the V10 impresses as the purist sportscar engine. In handling, the M5 is sportier. The transmission is something one has to get used to, and in comfort, the M5 lags behind.
Unlike that recent Automobile comparo of the S6/M5/E63, AM&S actually records track data and actually "tests" the cars...lol!
Somewhat off-topic, but I'm reading the various reviews of the Saleen S7 Turbo like in the Sept issue of Road and Track. Out of all the sports cars they tested in that issue with all their outstanding performance numbers the Saleen blows them away. I mean a 10.6 1/4 mile @140 mph is just sick! What do you think about the Saleen S7 Turbo?
M
When a person, any person, has purchased a particular car in part because of the status associated with it, does that not imply some insecurity on that person's part? Does it not imply that if the person couldn't be seen owning/driving that particular car (like, pretend it somehow looked like a Chevy to everyone in the world except the owner), he might have made a different choice of car? If a desire for a high-status car doesn't imply insecurity, then what does it imply?
Is it insecure to purchase a HELM, or just certain HELMs?
A very intelligent question. If a decision is made in part because of status, then purchasing a HELM, since it has more status than a non-HELM, does imho imply insecurity. It then follows that if a person has purchased the highest-status HELM in part because it has more status than a Lexus, that person might be more insecure than the Lexus buyer. So it isn't that the status-concious Lexus buyer is totally secure, it is that he is less insecure than the status-concious MB buyer. (For the record, I am not suggesting that all MB buyers, or all HELM buyers, are status councious. But my guess is that many are, in their hearts.)
In the past I have stated clearly that I own Lexus (and probably wouldn't buy a non-HELM minivan) in part because of prestige/status. So by my own definitions I am a bit insecure. But likely less insecure than an MB owner who has purchased in part because of prestige/status, simply because the Lexus has less prestige/status than MB.
Would you use the same language against your comrades in arms, the MB fans? Would you say, "How could anyone prefer a Mercedes, when there are BMW's and Porsches out there?"
The answer, to both questions, is that not everyone in the world has the same balance of priorities, likes, and dislikes as you.
Look, guys, the personal comments going on in here are inappropriate as most of you know. And name-calling is out of bounds.
When we get into characterizing owners of vehicles, we get into these food-fights - every time. The comments about each other and the characterizations of owners stops here.
Posts are going to start disappearing if that has to happen.
I like how the AMGs are relatively simple machines, stomp on the pedal and they go. With the M5, theres 800 transmission and suspension settings, and a million other things to fiddle with. Ferrari's system that incorporates all of those functions into one switch on the steering wheel makes a lot more sense.
Somewhat off-topic, but I'm reading the various reviews of the Saleen S7 Turbo like in the Sept issue of Road and Track. Out of all the sports cars they tested in that issue with all their outstanding performance numbers the Saleen blows them away. I mean a 10.6 1/4 mile 140 mph is just sick! What do you think about the Saleen S7 Turbo?
I'd rather have a Zonda F. Not quite as fast, perhaps, but the inside of the Saleen is just a track day car with a radio in it, nothing more. Certainly nothing to indicate how much money it costs. The inside of the Zonda, on the other hand, WOW!
http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-2005/2005-Pagani-Zonda-F-n-Interior-1280x960.j- - pg
Well yes of course you'd know I'd have a Zonda too considering the connection with Mercees-Benz. I don't think the fact that the Saleen is bascially a street version of their race car hurts anything, that is what bascially made Ferrari such an icon. We're getting the Zonda in 2008 I believe.
M
Doesn't really matter, the order.
Tagman,
I think MB has more to fear from Lexus than any other German marque. You may be correct about Lexus being a future threat to BMW but that threat certainly does not exist with their current product-line.
As mentioned by somebody else in this forum Audi is BMW's biggest threat right now!
The ML and G are down.
DrFill
I fully agree with you!
What is forgotten by auto executives in various German firms is that "niche" is not a four lettered word at all. A profitable niche player that provides unique autos is not only good for customers but also good for shareholders (BMW and Porsche shareholders have been quite content these past few years).
Having said that it ceases to amaze me how many German auto firms are willing to dilute their strong reputations in order to grow out of their niches. The history of "growth in size" for the sake of "growth in size" is not too good for the German marques. Two obvious examples are the BMW/Rover and MB/Chryser situations. God-forbid if a takeover situation happens between VW and Porsche.
True.
But the trend for the year is solidly up across all segments I care about:
7 Series -20.7% for July, +11.4% YTD
S Class +52% for July, +95.8% YTD (Astonishing!)
5 Series -20.7% for July, +12.8% YTD
E Class -18.7% for July, -2.9% YTD
3 Series +0.3% for July, +19.9% YTD
C Class -1% for July, -10.8% YTD
So as you can see across the board, Merc, sales growth of BMW vehicles are proceeding ahead at a healthy clip.
I look for the new S Class to absolutely trounce the new Toyot..er...I mean LEXUS LS.
An American board? I better look at my passport again :P
I can assure you there are quite a few non-Americans in this forum.
In this globalized world Audi is a significant power in the HELM/luxury/performance segment independent of its sales results in the USA.
I have a 545.
For driving pleasure, the 3 Series is at the top of the BMW line.
YES!
The only MB I lust for is the new 550 S Class with the Active Body Control suspension.
The choice between it and a BMW 7 is a no-brainer, IMO.
Really? Tell me which car the "current product" Lexus IS is being compared to most, my friend.
TagMan
Oh yes sales of the IS are good, especially compared to the old model. GS sales were initially good too, especially when compared to the old model.
How will the IS compete against a new Infiniti G with a potent new engine(even the Infiniti M will not have this great engine). How will the IS compete against the twin turbo BMW 3s?Oh and let us not forget the new MB C.
Never judge a car's success at it's intro year , especially the Lexus IS. But I do love the competition.
IMO the Infiniti G, especially the upcoming model will be a true competitior to the BMW 3 series.
How many BMW owners do you know in this forum or in the outside world that want to buy a Lexus? How many people do you know who are Lexus owners who want to buy a BMW? A few maybe? But not many. Both marques cater to two very different types of drivers. The perpetual battles of this forum proves my point.
To a point. Leasing, while a fine way to drive a car is still only renting, and there is no equity or ownership. Attainment of the contractual USE of the car is not the same as attainment of the vehicle itself. There are restrictions, and at the end of the lease, you have nothing.
Renting a luxury home as opposed to purchasing it is quite different as well.
The advantage of renting is simply that the manufacturer's can put a greater number of folks into their cars on a month-to-month basis.
TagMan
IMO, The IS is to the 3-Series the same way the LS is to the S-Class.
I may have slim company on this perspective, but me thinks not for long.
TagMan
I fully agree with your first sentence but fully disagree with your last sentence
Only time will tell!
Only time will tell!
Fair enough.
TM
It is not as much fun to drive as the 3 and is much more cramped inside than the 3.
I do however find the IS better looking than the 3.
But . . . what does the public think when it comes time to make that purchase. Have they seen the IS and the 3-series on the covers of many magazines? Do they associate the two cars together somehow?
Just like the LS, is the performance of the IS "good enough" even if not equivalent to the competition?
Is the price right?
These are the reasons I speak of.
TagMan