High End Luxury Cars

zachmbenzfvr · October 2002

Okay look I am sorry but guess what!?!?!?!?!?! The new s-class is at MBUSA.com Check it out!!!!!!!

maxhonda99 · October 2002

See, the pessimism continues. I basically have issues with your entire post.
First and foremost, let’s begin at continue to fall down the sales list. How long has Lexus been falling down
The sales list? Year to year, sales have been rising for over the last five years. Not just that but in 2000 & 2001 I believe, Lexus was the best selling luxury nameplate in the United States, ahead of Mercedes & BMW, and far ahead of Cadillac & Lincoln. And BMW is probably going to sell more cars in the United States for 2002, but not by much. And Lexus & BMW will still be far ahead of Cadillac in terms of sales figures for 2002. This is of course in a recession. Despite your pessimism, I’m a bit more optimistic and realistic in that you can expect, if the economy holds steady, that Lexus sales-with the introduction of new products during the 2003 model year, will go grow even further. I apologize for bursting your bubble, but don’t expect Cadillac to gain that much ground, considering they will merely have the new SRX and XLR(Low-production) next year. I would still expect Cadillac sales to grow by about 5K to 6K units a month next year due to these 2 products.

Yes, the RX300 had minimal competition when it first came out, but since last year when the RX300 was in it’s 4th year, the RX300 had plenty of competition-the ML line grew since 1998 from just the ML320 to the ML430 and M55, the X5 came out, the MDX was introduced, Toyota’s own Highlander came out, and it’s had the Infiniti QX4 as competition. Yes, RX300 sales are still strong and it’s still outsells the MDX(which is better), the ML-class & X5.

Gimme a break, Cadillac sales are off about 30K units thru Sep-02. I see 145K units thru Sep-02 vs. 176K for Lexus thru Sep-02. Cadillac is hardly right behind Lexus or BMW. “Right Behind” would be proper if it was said
Lexus was “right behind” BMW in sales. While I am talking about sales figures, let’s discuss Deville fleet sales to limo companies and the sort. A further inflation of sales figures.

How old? I have seen people around age 30 to 40 driving Deville’s. But, a shock, they are all driving cars that they don’t own but Deville’s which their employers own, the Limo companies. Otherwise, I basically see 50+ set driving Deville’s. While on this topic, let’s not fail to point out that most people in their 30, 40s, or even 50s can afford $60K+ cars, which means you shouldn’t even be comparing the Devilles demographic age group to the LS430’s age group. The Average deville transaction price is probably a good $20K lower than a LS430’s. BTW, how many 40 year olds do you see driving a S-class around or a 7-series? Not a whole lot. Why? Similar to above, not a whole lot of people in the 40 to 50 age group can afford $70K cars. Psst. You generally have to have more $$$ to buy a LS430, S-class, or 7-series. And $$$ usually comes thru acquisition(working).

The ES300 is no beauty queen, but let’s get real, the CTS is one of the ugliest cars, IMO, in the automotive industry. Styling is subjective, so let’s not go there, since obviously Lexus styling clicks with more people that Cadillac styling does.

“If you erase the Lexus price advantage it starts to lose its luster compared to the prestigous German marques” The same can be said about Cadillac. If you erase Caddy’s price advantage it loses even more luster compared to luxury cars that are actually prestigious.

brtmd · October 2002

zachmbenzfvr: Saw the info on the website. The S is a great looking vehicle (still). The wheels in the photos are killer. Although I'm pretty sure I saw some light reflecting off of a gawdy piece of plastic in one of the interior photos.

Even if Lexus isn't thanking MB, I am. When I was recently out to replace the family vehicle (wife, 9 y/o, and 7 y/o), MB was (as usual) at the top of my shopping list with the new 7 series next. I decided to give the LS a look for the first time. What I found was that, in the full size "premium luxury" category, Lexus was building a better MB than MB. Not only that, I got to put $25k back in my pocket--best "cheap rip-off imitation Mercedes-Benz" I've ever found. Your comments reminded me of what my MB salesman said to me when I was evaluating the S class: "It's [the S] a great car for someone who has to have the S." If you are the kind of person who needs to have the extra perceived cache of the S, by all means pony up--it is also a very fine vehicle. (That didn't go up too far did it?)

BTW, in any other vehicle category I would have been sticking with MB or BMW (which one depends on the category as a result of variations in my priorities). Which means (gasp!) that I have found a tiny fragment of common ground with glamourlife: Congratulations on your new E500. A beautiful car IMO.

Kirstie_H · October 2002

A top U.S. daily needs drivers of the BMW series 7 to share their experiences and be named in the story. If you are an avid Series 7 driver and would love to talk about your car, please email me at lori_f@eudoramail.com. Deadline is by Monday October 28 at 5:00p.m. EST

nealm1 · October 2002

Gosh, Lexus must be sitting pretty; it is the car of choice for OLD people, and as the population ages, all us prostate patients will be looking for cushy cars to drive. And I suppose the S500s and 745i's are the must-have for freshmen on the college campuses this year?

Do me a favor: Count the number of 20-30 year olds you see this week in S classes. The tell me about the LS being an old person's car.

merc1 · October 2002

Question, just curious...what did you guys drive before you bought your first Lexus?

M

ejerod · October 2002

Geez.. when I said I was young I didn't mean to incite an age riot.. lol. You're right.. there aren't many 20-30 year olds driving any of these cars. My statement, as are all the statements here, was subjective. My point being that the younger generations do not like the styling of the LS430. But the demographic that Lexus targeted with that car was 47 year olds with an annual income of 200k. These are the people that can typically buy just about anything they want as far as a luxury car goes. So as far as hitting the target goes, Lexus has been successful. In fact I'd say Bullseye. I'm a private banker by trade with my own firm. I have quite a few wealthy young clients from entertainers to athletes. Of the hundreds I know that do own everything from Audi's to Lamborghini's ( and I'm talking about people that are under 40 in my client base) I only know 3 that own the LS430. No, it isn't a scientific survey by any means and I'm sure someone will find a hundred different articles or studies to argue a point, but that's my observation. The LS430 just looks too bland, whereas the BMW, MB, even Jaguars look like they can eat up asphalt, make a killer cappacino , and allow you to buy season tickets all without breaking a sweat. In the words of a friend of mine that's a professional race car driver. The S class may not be able to outperform a Porshe, but by the looks of it, you know it isn't scared to try. The LS430 on the other hand looks as though it will cower and cry for it's mother .

maxhonda99 · October 2002

"the BMW, MB, even Jaguars look like they can eat up asphalt, make a killer cappacino , and allow you to buy season tickets all without breaking a sweat. In the words of a friend of mine that's a professional race car driver. The S class may not be able to outperform a Porshe, but by the looks of it, you know it isn't scared to try. The LS430 on the other hand looks as though it will cower and cry for it's mother " Those are the corniest two sentences I have read in a long time. Especially the the "killer cappacino, and allow you to buy season tickets" part. Really, no sensibility to that.

1487 · October 2002

i had too many typos in my last message and I apologize for that.

I dont see how the RX300 can be called a continuing success if it was selling close to 90K units a few years ago and is selling around 60K now. I don't know what the exact sales figures are but 31% of 200K sales is close to 60K a year. The new one will never hit the sales levels of the first model which was a pioneer.The SRX, X3 and other competition will limit it's success in the market.

Listen, I dont have a problem with old people buying cars, that's the media's problem. All I'm saying is that people need to acknowledge that Lexus models other than the IS and RX do not appeal to younger buyers. Now if you live in an area where no one drives anything that isnt an import (CA for example) I can understand why you think all people strive to own a Lexus but that isnt the case here. I have never seen an LS430 driver with hair that wasnt gray. The old model wasnt much better in that regard but this model seems to be a hit with retirees.

If Cadillac was to add 5 or 6K units a month next year it would surpass lexus in sales. Cadillac barely has a price advantage versus the Germans. They have nothing to compete with the 7 series or class but when you look at the prices of other models they arent cheap. The Deville's prce range is $42-58K, Seville $46K-57K, CTS $30K-$40K, escalade $50K-$56K. Next year Cadillac will have a model that is more expensive than any Lexus. We cant dispute who sells more cars but if you look at the average sale price of a CAdillac and a Lexus we know who will have the advantage. Most of Lexus' sales come from three models that cost under $40K and cadillac only has one model that sells for under $40K.

Also, I dont think anyone buys a lexus for the looks. Let's be realistic. Out of all the major Luxury makers Lexus has the worst styling. call it subjective if you want to but I never hear anyone that doesnt own a lexus call their cars attractive. The CTS isnt the best looking car but it is conveying a consistent theme which cant be said about any lexus. WHen you see the CTS next to the Slade and XLR it begins to make some sense. I would fix the rear end, but other than that it is a sharp and modern looking car. Lexus has no common design theme and as a result their cars do not match except for their grilles.

Cadillac, Infiniti and eventually Lincoln (hopefully) are going to do the same thing in the 2000s that Lexus did in the 90s. They are going to re-establish themselves with new products and performance and someon is going to pay in terms of sales. My guess is that Lexus is going to be the primary casualty.

ljflx · October 2002

Whenever the assembly line is re-tooled to produce a new design - as is the case right now with the RX300 - you have lower production and hence lower sales. The plant is operating usually at 33% less efficiency. That is also why the new model takes a while to reach full production after it is introduced. LS400 sales dropped to 14,000 in its last year and zoomed to 33,000 in 2001 with the new model. Don't read anything into sales stats in the last year of a model - its a production issue not a sales issue.

For Merc 1 - Acura Legend and please lighten up a bit. It was a great car. Like my 95 LS400 a friend bought it and took my 60k break-in miles to over 300k miles before the car started to have problems. The 95 LS400 has over 200k miles and is still functioning well. I must do something right when these cars are in their baby years though I do drive them hard and fast.

maxhonda99 · October 2002

1487, wake up dude. Is the RX300 still not the SUV sales leader in it's market category? Which SUV out of them RX300, MDX, X5, ML, and QX4 sells in greater numbers? True the RX300 does not sell 90K units like it did in the first 2-3 years of its cycle, but 60K is still better than what the competition is selling, and most of the competition has newer models(MDX, X5) and the sales numbers still don't match the RX300. Not just that, but the RX300 is darn old. Compared to the MDX especially, it's smaller in just about every dimension, doesn't have the driving dynamics of the MDX, and is underpowered next to the MDX, but it still outsells it. I can see your continued pessimism being a hard-core Cadillac fan, but realistically, if a 5-year old SUV design is outselling newer better and similarly priced vehicles, what makes you think a totally new better newer similarly priced RX330 won't sell more than 60K units? Yes, Competition will limit the RX330's success, and I will even doubt the RX330 will sell 90K units a month, but neither will the MDX or Caddy SRX sell 90K a year because of the crowded entry level luxury SUV segment you speak of. On the other hand, you have to remember that the cross-over SUV segment is still growing(not like it was in the late 90s, but it's still growing) in the double-digit range.

Old people buying luxury cars is not the problem. Simply put, the older a person is, generally, the more expensive car that he/she can afford. Therefore, young people generally cannot afford big-buck luxury cars unless the young person is inherently rich, a pro sport player, a entertainer, a drug dealer, hit the lottery, or is extremely smart and well educated and makes tons of money at a young age. But obviously, we know that all those groups put together constitute a very small percentage of the luxury car buying public.

Everyone in here acknowledge's in here that older people buy Lexus cars, just like older people buy Cadillac, Lincoln, Mercedes, BMW, and Jaguar. What you have a failure acknowledging is that even less young people find any Cadillac model appealing than Lexus models.

Please take a survey if you go to college, or wherever and see how many young people(college aged maybe?, 20-30 age group?) and see what they would rather be driving, a Cadillac or a Lexus. Guaranteed results would be a vast majority would pick a Lexus over a Cadillac. I'm only 27, and I prefer Lexus far over Cadillac. In fact, out of all Luxury car makes Cadillac would be next to last right ahead of Lincoln. 1)BMW 2)Lexus 3)Audi 4)Infiniti 5)Jaguar 6)Mercedes 7)Cadillac 8)Lincoln.

The only Cadillac I like is the STS, because it hasn't gone to that lame new edge design philosophy yet. The CTS has awesome driving ability, but it's styling inside & out is hideous, what was Cadillac thinking?
On top of that I have many wealthy friends, some inherently rich, some to actually earned it in the computer industry the last few years, I don't see any of them with any cadillac product, but I do see them with Audi's, BMW's, Lexus', mostly BMW's though.

Yes, Cadillac will probably add 5-6K a month in sales. But you still fail(consistently) to realize that Lexus as well as BMW and Mercedes have new models coming out next year. In Lexus case, the GX470, a new RX330, a new GS330/430, and a SC330. As I know you so well from just a couple of posts, I know the response to come.

"Cadillac barely has a price advantage versus the Germans. They have nothing to compete with the 7 series or class but when you look at the prices of other models they arent cheap. The Deville's prce range is $42-58K, Seville $46K-57K, CTS $30K-$40K, escalade $50K-$56K."

Cadillac has a big price advantage and dealers give huge discounts. $58K for a Deville. I think not. I have heard the DTS with the night vision is made in very few numbers. And again, here's the word, realistically, most Deville's are sold at the lower end of that price spectrum. Same with the Seville, and CTS. So really, Caddy does have a advantage, a big advantage(while you're at it don't forget to mention the 0% financing deal GM is throwing around). And the DTS's competition is basically itself. You're not going to see a whole lot of DTS buyers cross-shopping a LS430, S430, or 745il. It's just not going to happen. The DTS's competition is basically the Lincoln Town Car.

The Cadillac XLR will be more expensive than the Lexus SC430. What do you think that will do for Cadillac? You think it's going to be a better car than the Mercedes SL500? Do you really feel Cadillac will sell more than 1,000 units a month after the first few months? Do you really think most people who can afford a $70K+ car are going to jump from their SLs, XK8's to the XLR?

I bet Infiniti is going to improve alot in the coming years, I don't see the same with Cadillac. General Motors talked about beating the competition all thru the 90's, and it always never happened.

"Also, I dont think anyone buys a lexus for the looks. Let's be realistic. Out of all the major Luxury makers Lexus has the worst styling. call it subjective if you want to but I never hear anyone that doesnt own a lexus call their cars attractive. " I also bet nobody buys a Cadillac for the looks then. And yes, styling is subjective-stated again.

BTW, why do you think all people strive to own a Cadillac?

maxhonda99 · October 2002

ljflx, The Legend was a nice car! What year was that?

Good point about sales caused to retooling. Did not think about that. I believe the new RX330 is due out in the spring or summer of 2003, right?

modernity · October 2002

The arguments here are really about two issues. One, which is better Lexus or MB. The other is which is better to own.

I don't know about you but when I get in my car every morning, I don't think if it's the sales leader, or if it has any family resemblance, or even if the competition is gonna catch up next year.... I just wanna get into a car I know I will enjoy... to drive, to look at and especially to own. Taken in context and with reasonable objectivity you cannot say a Mercedes is better than a Lexus.

As to the other angle; which is better Mercede or Lexus.... well that depends? There are so many angles one can look at a company that you could argue that Kia is better them both... get the point! So unless you can come up with a standard to measure which is better you are never gonna get a winner.... just opinions and more opinions

wishnhigh1 · October 2002

"Please take a survey if you go to college, or wherever and see how many young people(college aged maybe?, 20-30 age group?) and see what they would rather be driving, a Cadillac or a Lexus. Guaranteed results would be a vast majority would pick a Lexus over a Cadillac. I'm only 27, and I prefer Lexus far over Cadillac. In fact, out of all Luxury car makes Cadillac would be next to last right ahead of Lincoln. 1)BMW 2)Lexus 3)Audi 4)Infiniti 5)Jaguar 6)Mercedes 7)Cadillac 8)Lincoln."

Im 20 years old, attending Cal Poly, SLO. I would rather drive a Cadillac than a Lexus.

"The Cadillac XLR will be more expensive than the Lexus SC430. What do you think that will do for Cadillac? You think it's going to be a better car than the Mercedes SL500? Do you really feel Cadillac will sell more than 1,000 units a month after the first few months? Do you really think most people who can afford a $70K+ car are going to jump from their SLs, XK8's to the XLR?"

They seem to be jumping ship with their SUVs, considering the sales numbers, so why not?

wishnhigh1 · October 2002

I think the "vast majority" of young affluent people buy what kind of cars they percieve as stylish or appealing. On the lower end of the spectrum(ie, not lux car territory), that is where reliability is a strong selling point, but not the high end, which is what were talking about.

I dont know any college kids who think of a Lexus, other than the SC430, as stylish. However, many college kids love the Cadillac style(except Deville). Everybody I know, except a select few, percieve Lexus as old people cars. If they were in a position to buy a Luxury Car, I would estimate the top three choices would be MB, Audi, and BMW...and Lexus and Lincoln would be last...with Cadillac somewhere in the middle.

magnetophone · October 2002

Well, I'm within the 20-30 age range, and I'd prefer an Audi over any of them.

wishnhigh1 · October 2002

Me too!

merc1 · October 2002

What did I say now? I was just asking a question, if you noticed I haven't said a thing during the latest round of age vs this and who buy this questions. I do find it funny though that you told 1487 not to read anything into sales of the RX300 dropping, but yet when Mercedes has an old model that drops in sales before the new model debuts it's seen as some type of crisis. No, you didn't say that I dont' think, but your fellow Lexus underlings have. Amazing.

Actually re-tooling has nothing to do with sales sliding, people simply hold-off buying a product they know is going to be replaced, and secondly sales of anything decline as the years go by. Toyota especially has no sales problems during re-tooling as they do it faster than just about anyone else. Have you ever been to the Camry plant? I'll admit it's almost completely seamless in it's ability to do model change overs.

M

maxhonda99 · October 2002

wishnhigh, YOu didn't prove really anything. You're 1 person out of millions. You know it's a fact that the average "young" person would rather drive a foreign nameplate luxury car product over a Cadillac. It's simply a fact, otherwise soo many "young" People wouldn't be driving BMW 3-series.

modernity, Yes, some people have relegated the conversion to sales numbers. BUt you're right, it's not about sales figures as sales figures overall don't tell you the full picture. Even lousy products are successful(in terms of numbers sold)in the marketplace because of low price, availability, and marketing.

Which is better? you're right, no one can really say unanimously which car is better. Any car in the luxury segment is essentially a good car and basically there are differences between the many choices. And those differences suit different buyers in different ways.

In one way, you can say a Kia is better than anything. It does present a better value than any car possibly on the market. It basically provides what even a luxury car provides-transportation at 1/5 the price.

merc1, Actually re-tooling at any car plant affects sales to a certain degree. Re-tooling is a lenghty process in just about every auto plant and re-tooling begins to take shape months in advance of a new products introduction. To re-tool a factory a certain amount of current production capacity has to be sacrificed. But you are right, alot of the sales drop has to do with a products age.

ejerod · October 2002

My post may have been corny, but the point is true. I'd ask 1487 what do you actually own ? Or if you don't own one, what have you actually driven for a fair amount of time ? I personallhy own the 2003 MB SL500 with all the options including keyless go, tire pressure monitors etc, I also own the 2002 MBS500 with AMG sport packaage with the majority of options offered. I also own the 2002 Lexus GS300 Sport Edition. I'm 39 years old and I've earned my money the hard way, legally and ethically.. lol. I'm not posting this to challenge anything you say, I'm just curious about your " real world " experience with any of these automobiles. The truth is I'm somewhat impressed with your diatribe and find it amazing that you have time to research all the things you post. So.. what do you acutally own or have any practical experience with ? By the way.. you'd make a great marketing analyst if you don't already have a career.. E

1487 · October 2002

ejrod:

i dont own any MB or Lexus products. I am too young and to poor to own any type for luxury car (well I could if I lived at home) but my understanding of the industry is unaffected by my limited financial means. I currently own my second car which is an Alero, my first car was a used suburu legacy (feel sorry for me yet?). I have driven many of these cars at various manufacturer sponsored events but I have never owned one and I wont for many years. I have no intentions of ever owning a MB or BMW because they are too numerous around these parts. I have nothing against the cars but I have never been a follower. I laugh when people try to use sales data or the average age of owners to prove that one company is superior to another. Please tell me what you do for a living that allows you to own an SL500, S500 and GS300 at age 39?

honda;

"dude", you are in over your head here. You basically avoided dealing with the issues I mentioned and instead began trashing Cadillac. That is always a sign that a person has nothing substantive to add to the debate. You never answered my question about what part of the US you inhabit. it sounds like CA to me based on your import loving friends and your own closed minded attitude. I live on the east coast where people have made money the old fashioned way and the luxury cars are diverse. I am telling you that Lexus makes few vehicles that are desirable to young people in my area based on what I see on the street and what I hear from my peers. I am younger than you and I do not find any of Lexus' models to be physically appealing. The IS300 would be the best executed Lexus design in my opinion but it screams "rice rocket" and it looks juvenile. I cant believe that anyone who can say with a straight face that he finds lexus vehicles attractive can muster the nerve to criticize the CTS. Notice I NEVER said the CTS was beautiful, but I did say that its design is harmonious and purposeful. It could have been better executed in the rear but it is conveying a consistent design theme.

I will tell you that around here the two luxury vehicles held in the highest esteem amongst the younger crowd are probably the S-class and the Escalade. That may be due to rap videos or MTV's Cribs but really it doesnt matter where the prestige originated. I know people who think the Escalade costs $70K or more. That is the kind of prestige the SUV has among some young people. When I tell them they can own one for a mere $52K they are pleasantly surprised.

your entire dismissal of the pricing issue is ridiculous. 0% financing is not a discount on the price of a vehicle. In fact I would argue that Lexus uses high financing charges to make up for their lower price comparative to other luxury marques. It doesnt matter how many financing deals Cadillac offers, the average transaction price on a Cadillac is far higher than Lexus. I'm sure in your part of the world you dont see many Devilles (except at the airport) but I will tell you that a significant portion of Devilles are DTS models. When the car first debuted they had to increase the proportion of DTS made because the deman was higher than anticipated. In case you didn't know the DTS and DHS offer parallel pricing so any you see on the road could have cost anywhere from $50K-$56K. If you subtract night vision, which is a limited production option, the price could still run about $56K.

I cannot believe that you could honestly say that Infitni ranks higher than cadillac in terms of luxury status. that is not supported by sales numbers, nor technological achievements. Before the '02 Q45 debuted infiniti was never known for being on the cutting edge of anything. Sales notwithstanding, Cadillac, MB and BMW lead the luxury car industry in terms of new technology. Lexus, Jaguar, Acura and Infiniti are not on the same level. If you doubt that please provide some examples to counter my assertion. Cadillac has been pioneering technology for years and finally they have the guts to become a leader in performance. They are showing they are serious by going head to head the MB and BMW by developing manual trannys, the XLR, the CTSv with 350hp and later V series versions of the STS and SRX with twin turbo V8s. And lets not forget about the upcoming 500hp V-12. You say Gm as made these promises before, but you fail to mention that this promise is backed by confirmed products and $4 billion in capital. Meanwhile , Lexus is still beating us over the head with "the relentless pursuit of perfection" advertising and a lack of cohesive design strategy. When are they going to step up and try to challenge BMW and MB car for car? Truthfully, I dont think lexus cares about their reputation for performance or styling, they care about sales. As long as they are ahead in sales they arent going to truly challenge the benchmarks. Lexus is a first tier lux marque in terms of brand image and cute ads, but when it comes to innovation they are not amongst the leaders.

gwashington1 · October 2002

Every once in awhile I think, that it is time for this old man to buy a new luxury car, preferably a 2 dr sport coupe. I figure this will be the only one I ever buy and it will be for cash and around $50,000, but perhaps higher as I like all the electronic stuff comping out, like satellite radio receivers and GPS navigation as well as Onstar.

airmatic · October 2002

I expected the mercedes would allow a calyptus wood-and-steering wheel as an accessory, so that I could add one onto my car. but, it seems that its only avaliable on S500 and S55/S600. Considering my previous LS400 had a wood-steering wheel as part of the GPS package, I really expected that a luxury car like a S430 would have one standard.

by the way, on friday, I finally replaced the wheels on the S430. got rid off the 16 inch ones and got the 18" AMG chrome ones. decided that the regular rims were too small for the s-class, and got chrome ones because they look great on black.

i think that those wheels on the S-class (430 and 500) are the same ones as the 2002 CL-class. correct me if i am wrong.

pcbrs · October 2002

Hi-
It's interesting how you note that from your experience, MB and Cadillac are held in the highest regard in the East Coast "youth crowd", probably 20-40 demographics. I've lived in Boston for the past 6 years, and I can tell you that has not been my experience. I'm in my 20's, and have friends from 20-35 years of age. Most, if not all of them favor MB, BMW, and Lexus (RX300 and IS300). None of them, except for one out of over a hundred would even consider a Cadillac (lots of friends from college and med school). Among my friends, it's considered an older person's car. I guess your experience has been different. But this is just to show you how subjective individual cases and circumstances can be.

I was also confused by your last post. You wrote:
"I laugh when people try to use sales data or the average age of owners to prove that one company is superior to another."

Then, a little later you state:
"I cannot believe that you could honestly say that Infitni ranks higher than cadillac in terms of luxury status. that is not supported by SALES NUMBERS, nor technological achievements."

Anyway, I respect Cadillac, and they really didn't get the kudos they deserved for the Northstar system. Still, you may be right that Lexus doesn't innovate as prolifically as the other makers, but their execution of high end technology is without any peers.

-Jeff

stevestein · October 2002

While I was not asked, I'll answer your question anyway. I leased a C280 and E320, and took a hard look at an S430 before I got an LS430 in 2001. The bottom line for me is that there are just different philosophies behind the MB and Lexus ways of looking at cars. Trivial as it sounds, the cupholders tell the story. Even in the S class the cupholders will dump a drink in a large cup in your lap. In my C280 I had to buy a cupholder in the second year from the (then new) E class and have it installed. I believe that the MB engineers don't want you to drink anything and drive. Lexus is more accommodating to the creature comforts. I did have more mechanical problems with the MB than the Lexus, including a leaking head gasket and some other surprising problems for a young car (none went over 30K), but the service department was great and always provided a loaner (BTW a Taurus while I get a current Lexus from them).
Lexus just fits my personal desires more. I'd rather have the cupholder than an extra .01g lateral acceleration. That's why it strikes me as strange (and I'm far from a car enthusiast) that so many people here are so passionate and chauvinistic that one brand must be better than all others. It's America! The land of free choice. Each manufacturer makes a decision as to price/performance/features/mystique and develops a marketspace. The people who buy their cars feel comfortable in that space. Like the 7 series? Great. Love MB - good for you. Lexus makes you happy - enjoy. In the end everyone spends their own money, and there is no World Series or Super Bowl to declare a winner. Auto mags and Edmunds may try, but in the end the decision is still according to some arbitrary set of rules they decided upon that may emphasize things of no interest to me.
The bottom line is, when you do get your Mercedes, I truly hope it lives up to your every expectation and pleases you. I'll just stick to my Lexus for now.

magnetophone · October 2002

Well, all I can say to that is that the Germans simply don't drink while on the autobahn. Mercedes is about Germany, Lexus is about assimilating to American taste, which is entirely passionless and boring. Good for you if you want a reliable luxo-barge. I wholeheartedly agree with those here who put Lexus closer to Cadillac. I see plenty of LS430's here, and they're owned by older folks tootling in the left lane on the freeway at 55mph. In my opinion, they are cars for people who aren't really car nuts, with the exception of the IS300.

And I agree with most in here who say that young people don't consider Cadillac. They simply don't. I've seen a half dozen CTS' here since they came out. I've seen countless G35's, however, including my neighbors and a coworker who now owns them. The only place I think a Cadillac has a true desirability factor is in the poorer neighborhoods. Cadillacs are hot objects there, which is not a bad thing at all. Cadillacs are largely affordable, unloved luxury cars that can be had for chump change after they're off lease or after their owners can't drive anymore.

magnetophone · October 2002

And, I don't know what dealership you went to, but a family member had to take in her E320 wagon recently and she got an E320 sedan as a loaner.

zachmbenzfvr · October 2002

I honestly have never thought of Cadillac as a true competitor. I can't back myself with data showing that it isn't, but, I always thought the Germans had most of the hold on the luxury car market. I have never considered Cadillac as a choice and still do not.

baron87 · October 2002

"Well, all I can say to that is that the Germans simply don't drink while on the autobahn."

Then why is it legal for all occupants of a vehicle, besides the driver, to consumer alcohol in Germany?? Oh, oops...I forgot, in Texas you can do that too...

Why is Cadillac not a competitor? They sell more vehicles over 40k than anyone else in the country. And is at the absoulte forefront in its upcoming vehicles in terms of design and technology. Hmm...maybe a broadening of horizons is warranted.

magnetophone · October 2002

No, you can't do that in Texas. There is something called an "open container law" here. Maybe you need to get your driver's license first! Or learn the laws of Texas...

All that Cadillacs have is the Northstar. The styling is suspect, the FWD architecture of the Deville and Seville are suspect, as are their cheap interiors. There is no model in their lineup that is the class leader. Yes, many Cadillacs sold are over $40K, but consider that many of those $40K vehicles MSRP for $55K.

wishnhigh1 · October 2002

"wishnhigh, YOu didn't prove really anything."

Neither did you.

"You're 1 person out of millions."

So are you

"You know it's a fact that the average "young" person would rather drive a foreign nameplate luxury car product over a Cadillac."

Its a fact huh? Says who? I would like to see what your definition of "fact". Maybe when you are as young as I am again, you can tell me what young people like.

"It's simply a fact, otherwise soo many "young" People wouldn't be driving BMW 3-series."

Okay, so you have proven that young people like the BMW 3 series. I never denied that. I fully agree! How many young people do you see driving ES300s again? I have seen more young people driving Cadillacs than I have seen driving Lexus. And yes I have seen many young people(18-25) driving Cadillacs, from older classic Caddys to new CTSs and Seville STSs, and especially Escalades.

I have seen two people my age, driving Lexi, and I know them personally. One got rid of his for a Mercedes ML500, the other still has his GS300.

Cadillac has a more young image in my mind, and while it is impossible to prove anything no matter how many numbers you can quote, I would say that at least here in California, Cadillac has a far younger image than Lexus.

Not that it means they are crappy cars. I think Lexus makes incredible cars, and they reshaped an entire industry because of it. I just dont think they appeal to young people, in any sense.

glamourlife · October 2002

In the youth pop culture right now, the two most esteemed vehicles probably are the S500 and an Escalade. The person that made a comment about Cadillacs only being desirable in "poorer" neighborhoods is way out of touch. "Poorer" neighborhoods are not behind the times. In fact from a marketing perspective they are the tastemakers and mavens of what's next. This has always been the case in fashion, music, culture, and most trends.

The resurgence in sales of luxury nameplates like Bentley has been driven in large part by the urban community. Ask MB who their first G500's and Maybachs were delivered to. At the top of the list will be professional entertainers, athletes, and urban entrepreneurs.

Cadillac is definitely on the rise. Their portfolio of impending new releases is impressive. Lexus on the other hand is still playing follower and waiting to see what MB and BMW will do next. Lexus does not have a single model that is aspirational to the under 35 set. Cadillac may have controversially styled vehicles, but they are aspirational to a large segment of youth culture. They have not reached the level of BMW and MB yet, but at one time they were, and who knows, they may someday return.

merc1 · October 2002

True retooling does affect sales, but it's very, very slight...especially in Toyota's case. Their KY plant is re-tooled overnight it seems with every new Camry. The main reason for a drop in sales of a hot product is simply age, no maker is immune to this. Even Ferrari will cut a deal on the now aged 456M.

1487,

I've been trying my best to stay out of this who likes what conversation because it varies greatly by location, and by associations too (i.e. one's circle of friends, co-workers etc). But Pcbrs, did pose a good question about the use of or non-use of sales data to support your various theories. I actually agree with you on *some* of the things you've been saying, but you let me down with the blatant contradiction that pcbrs pointed out. And welcome back.

baron87,

You really need to give that tired "they sell more 40K vehicles than anyone else" rhetoric a rest. Who cares? Nobody, and I mean nobody sells as many 50K+, 60K+, 70K+ cars as Mercedes-Benz, so there. Now who's the real "luxury" brand? The poster meant that Cadillac isn't a competitor based on product not sales.

stevestein,

I agree totally, they're different cars..primarily because of their origin and philosphy. The cupholder issue is probably the best example of that, with Porsche literally refusing to do it, and it's easy to see that the Germans didn't want to do it, so they half-a__d the job. Some magazines are starting to realize this. My issue with the press is the insistance that everything must outhandle a BMW. It's getting out of hand. About me getting a Benz, thanks.

M

merc1 · October 2002

The most popular vehicles in "pop" culture, or hip-hop culture or whatever you want to call it are:

Mercedes SL500 (watch any hip-hop music video)
Ferrari 360 Spider (ditto)
Any Bentley
Cadillac "Slade" and EXT
Mercedes S-Class (don't think they always rent S500s)
Range Rover
Mercedes G500
Lexus SC430 (the only Lexus I see regularly)
Hummer H2
BMW 745i (still ugly, but has the BMW name)
BMW Z8

Strangely I haven't seen one Audi in anything. Why is this? Image, Audi doesn't have the right one for the athlete/hip-hop crowd and I personally LOVE that. Thats my Audi, the unique stand-alone, standout for those who know.

Another way to gauge what "young" people like is to watch MTV "Cribs" it's real telling as to what the young and rich, or just plain wealthy like to drive.

M

magnetophone · October 2002

Well, the A8 is an aluminum version of the Phaeton, and from what I have read, it's definitely the car to pick between the two if you're into sportiness. The car's interior, exterior, everything about it seems so unlike Volkswagen and so very Audi. The car may not sell much more than the last version, but there's no denying that the car is a class act.

And Audi is getting a large SUV in about 2 years. They're also getting a car based on the Steppenwolf concept, a new A3, as well as a V6-capable Audi TT. It seems to me that Audi will be doing okay.

jrosasmc · October 2002

Speaking of hip-hop culture, I'd like to see the day where Saabs and Volvos appear in music videos!

Note: In an automotive publication I read recently (DUB or something), there's a nice article on Ice-T's Mercedes S600 and Ferrari 360. Where in the world does he get the money to do all those mods?

maxhonda99 · October 2002

1487(dude):

My only trash of Cadillac came in it's styling. Not it's mechanic's or engineering or build. Again(since it evades you) styling is subjective. BTW, you have a propensity to trash Lexus as it is, so do not feel like nobody else can trash Cadillac, if you must consider my comments "trashing".

Really, no really you never asked where I lived. I live on the east coast(NJ), so I do not know where you are living, but up here other than Limo companies owning Deville's, I don't see many. And NJ is a bit like California in that it is the land of expensive luxury imports. I don't know where you live but if you ride on up the NJ turnpike and stop off in towns like Cherry Hill, Morrestown, then Mercer county, Monmouth county, Bergen County, Short Hills, and on up thru Parsippany and so on, the roads are littered with Mercedes, BMW, Lexus, Jaguar, Audi. And of course alot of Cadillac also. But Caddy is definately not the "bomb" car you make it out to be. I can drive to Boston, lots of friends there, nobody is driving a Cadillac.

"I am telling you that Lexus makes few vehicles that are desirable to young people in my area based on what I see on the street and what I hear from my peers. I am younger than you and I do not find any of Lexus' models to be physically appealing." Again, dude, you seem to consistently miss the point(s) I made. You, remember you, do not find Lexus' models appealing. But I can again say that you put a Lexus in front of the average young person and a Cadillac in front of the average young person and that average young person would rather have the Lexus. The Cadillac would be at the bottom of the list.

When is the last time you went shopping for a Lexus that you know they charge high financing prices? ANd how is 0% financing not a incentive? Please, 0% IS a incentive to help blow out cars. I don't know what Lexus charges for interest rates, but if they are charging higher interest rates than what the average banks are charging, I would bet nobody would be leasing thru Lexus or 2) their sales wouldn't be growing every month.

Sorry, I don't buy the $56K figure. 1) I see you can buy the car for basically invoice even in NJ 2) I can see you can buy it for basically invoice off of Carsdirect.com 3) I don't see a whole lot of DTS's because alot of the ones I see are owned by the Limo companies and they definately aren't DTS's.

"I cannot believe that you could honestly say that Infitni ranks higher than cadillac in terms of luxury status. that is not supported by sales numbers, nor technological achievements. " Again since this is also eluding you, let me point it out. Where these cars rank was IMO. I know you are the master of where cars rank(and cadillac is the king of 1487's automotive luxury hierarchy). IMO means which car makes I would consider in order. Infiniti is primarily based on the G35. Much better car than the CTS in just about every way for less money. And it will run circles around a CTS.

"You say Gm as made these promises before, but you fail to mention that this promise is backed by confirmed products and $4 billion in capital." Haven't they? All through the 90s? the STS was supposed to beat it's competitors from BMW, Mercedes, & Lexus in terms of quality, performance, and Luxury. Wasn't it? Has either generation of the STS from the 90s done that? What about the current CTS? From every comparison test I have read, it rates quite low. The XLR-has anyone driven a production version yet? I also think it will be a good car and it's the only good looking Cadillac I can see in the forseeable future, but really how many people do you think will pony up upwards of $70K for a Cadillac? $4 billion in capital means nothing if you can't EXECUTE.

"When are they going to step up and try to challenge BMW and MB car for car? " I believe Lexus has more cars to compete with more of BMW & mercedes products that Cadillac does.

Let's start, shall we? The IS300 competes with the BMW 3-series & MB C-class.
THe ES300 competes with the BMW 3-series & C-class
the LExus GS300 competes with the 525i & 528i, E320
The Lexus GS430 competes with the 540i, E430
The Lexus LS430 competes in between the BMW 5 & 7-series and Mercedes E & S-class but more towards the 7 series & S-class
The RX300 competes with the ML320, X5
the LX470 competes with the ML430 X5 4.4i(kinda)

What cars does Cadillac have that compete head to head in any category with Lexus, BMW, or Mercedes?
Cadillac made fabulous claims that it would handle better than the 5-series, yet in every test I've seen, Cadillac doesn't seem to measure up to the 5-series. The Seville's competition is supposed to be the 5-series, E-class, and GS-series. The Deville competes with nothing from Benz, BMW, or Lexus. The Deville basically competes with the Town Car. And the Escalade is too large to compete with either the X5 or ML430.
So, where is Cadillac's model for model competition to BMW, & Mercedes?

"Lexus is still beating us over the head with "the relentless pursuit of perfection" advertising and a lack of cohesive design strategy. When are they going to step up and try to challenge BMW and MB car for car? Truthfully, I dont think lexus cares about their reputation for performance or styling, they care about sales. As long as they are ahead in sales they arent going to truly challenge the benchmarks."

Bingo. Sales. Isn't that what Cadillac cares about also but can't seem to pull off, increased sales? What else do you think corporate america is about? selling fewer products?

Challenging the benchmarks. Explain to me how Cadillac has challenged the benchmarks? Oh, I forget they haven't. Lexus builds the LS430 which competes head to head with the S-class and 7-series-and according to people who drive it, it actually does compete with them. Can the Deville compete with the LS430? Not the last time I checked. The GS430, in every comparison I've read, competes with the benchmark 540i. Does the Seville? The IS300 competes with the 3-series, and it actually even wins some comparison tests against the 3-series. Does the CTS?

Lexus has challenged and continues to challenge BMW & mercedes. Cadillac has not in a long time. If you say they may challenge them in the few coming years, I could buy that. But saying they have challenged them or are currently challenging them is a farce. Cadillac doesn't have one product that is a benchmark or close to being a benchmark currently.
-The CTS doesn't excel at anything whether it be luxury or performance. The ES300 does-at being a luxury car.
-The Seville doesn't excel at anything either-it can't outperform a GS430, E500, or 540i.
-The Deville can't touch the S-class, LS430, or 745i in terms of performance or luxury.

Also, if you have proof that shows that the average young person prefers a Cadillac over a lexus, Benz, BMW, or Audi, be my guest and show me that st

maxhonda99 · October 2002

merc1, HOw can you basically say retooling doesn't affect sales & output? YOur favorite, Mercedes Benz can give a example. the recent launch of the new E-class. The past few months, sales were dwindling, and I think in aug & sep they only sold about 2K a month. Even in it's 5th model year, the E-class would have sold at about double that rate had it not been for retooling.

And Camry sales also sagged when the 2002 Came out. IT is true factories can be retooled quicker today than anytime in the past, and Toyota can do this really quick, but a totally new product means production will decrease. I know for a fact, when my friend recently bought a Accord, the dealer had next to nothing of the 2002 models because they were getting no shipments. Again similar situation, if Honda dealers had them, they could have still sold all of the 2002 models that they could have gotten.

1487 · October 2002

maxhonda

your post is so long that I cant begin to respond to all your points. Just keep this is mind: you are putting words in my mouth regarding Cadillac. I have never said the CAdillac makes better cars than lexus, I never said that Cadillac has a younger clientele than Lexus, I never said cadillac competes better with the Germans than Lexus, the list goes on and on. You are too sensitive when it comes to Lexus and you are on the defensive. The fact remains that Lexus products lack the styling or performace to appeal to younger buyers. The average Lexus owner is probably younger than the average cadillac owner and for that I congratulate you and Lexus. It doesn't change the fact that many young people would take an Audi, BMW, VW or MB over a Lexus. Other than the IS I cant imagine what lexus products you and your friends are attracted to. I'm sure you live in an area with a lot of young web developers who sip starbucks and wear prada loafers and that is fine. However, common sense should (and I say SHOULD) tell you that your area can't be representative othe country because cadillac is third in sales this year and according to you they dont sell any cars in North Jersey. I live in Phila. and I have seen dozens of CTS' so far and I have seen innumerable Escalades and EXTs. I see a lot of everything except Bentleys and Ferraris, but I see those too. Also,my ex-college roomate is 25 and can't stand VW's, Audis or Lexi. To him they represent interner wealth and yuppyism (if that were a word)and he has a Hi tech job outside of Princeton. He hasn tbought a new car but he told me a while ago he would consider a cadillac because he wants something different.

You need to do more research and less exaggerating. You say the CTS has finished low in every comparison review you've seen? It finished behind the 330, IS and A4 in C&D but they didnt have much bad to say about the car. The general consensus is that it needs more power and a better interior. Both will be addressed next year and both could be applied to your beloved IS300. You are basically saying that the car is a relative failure but I dont see what you are basing that on, most reviews have been positive.

Also, why would the Deville be better than the S500 or 745 when it costs about $15K-$25K less than those cars? Again, please apply some common sense. Your sales price argument continues to be impotent. Like I said before, finacing deals do NOT reduce the price of a car. I will accept your latest argument about caddys being sold near invoice but I will REPEAT that most cadillacs sold cost more than most Lexus models sold. You can talk about financing, incentives, invoice prices and everything else but you cant change that fact. Cadillac has more room to play with its pricing because it makes so much money on its vehicles (about $700 million) and they cost more than Lexus vehicles except for the LS430 and SC430. BTW, your lexus to BMW/MB comparisons are a joke. YOu honestly believe that an LS430 competes with te S-class, 7 series or 5 series? Do you really think the ES300 is a competitor to the 3 series? Anyone considering a 3 series is sure as hell not going to consider an ES300 for mny reasons. The CTS may not be perfect but it is much more like the 3 than the ES300 will ever be. I doubt any MB/BMW fanatic (and there are some here) would agree with your lexus-biased comparisons.

"$4 billion in capital means nothing if you can't EXECUTE."

Did you not read anything I wrote? Next years intros include a 315hp roadster, a 350hp RWD sedan with 6 speed manual, a new 260hp engine for the CTS and a 315hp AWD American X5..........That doesnt sound like executing you? dude, if you hate cadillac that is you perrogative but you are being ridiculous. Why cant you just acknowledge that they finally have a gamplan. You dont have to like the cars but you cant deny they are taking the right steps.

"Bingo. Sales. Isn't that what Cadillac cares about also but can't seem to pull off, increased sales? What else do you think corporate america is about? selling fewer products? "

Cadillac's sales are up about 16% or so this year, again do some research. Also, as i have pointed out before to others their lineup is one of the smallest in the luxury industry. They are holding on to third place with FOUR products.

merc1:

My statement about Infiniti makes sense. He said that Infiniti ranked above cadillac and I was saying that by ANY measure that wasnt true. You can measure it by sales, by rankings in magazines, by the number of innovations, brand image, average price of vehicles, by awards given or anything else. He cannot back that statement up. Audi sells less cars than caddy but they have a superior image, that cannot be said for Infiniti and I was merely saying that the SIZABLE difference between caddy sales and infiniti sales reflected that. I didnt mean to disappoint you, I didnt realize you were rooting for me.

magnetophone:

I dont know where you live but cadillacs are not only popular amongst the "urban" aka "poor" crowds. While many young rappers and atheletes are buying up escalades most cadillacs are bought by older working (or retired) people who are upper middle class like yourself. You say they are cheap? Well I would love to make enough money to call cadillacs cheap. BTW, most "poor" people as you call them cant afford a cadillac or any other luxury car. MBs and Bentleys pop up in the driveways of many rappers and NBA players but I don't hear you saying they are only popular in "poor" areas. Are you suggesting that anyone with a white collar job or a decent education would buy a caddy? who do you think was buying them before the rappers made the Escalade popular?

wishnhigh1 · October 2002

"But I can again say that you put a Lexus in front of the average young person and a Cadillac in front of the average young person and that average young person would rather have the Lexus. The Cadillac would be at the bottom of the list."

I take it you personally know the average young person. Hmmm...

I put more credibility in the direct opinions of young people, than the assumed opinions of young people made by old people. Young people are more in touch with the tastes of young people. Old people can only stereotype.

Again...when you turn 20 again, maybe you can tell me what young people like.

modernity · October 2002

So lexus is for old people.... big deal!
MB is more love into with the teeny groupies...great!!!
And Caddy is up and coming.... good for them!!!

And the point of all this is?????

Drive what you will and compare notes... leave out the obsequious chatter of which auto company is better.

This reminds me of the movie "This is Spinal Tap" I forget who, but one of the members was raving of how his amp could crank up to 13 when other others only went to 12.... loved that. It was basically a knob with Arbitary placed numbers on them....hahaha.... this argument is so much like that.

baron87 · October 2002

The V-Series will have markedely more than 350-bhp. And 4 billion in capital is actually somewhat of an understatement. The orignal A&S plan drawn up by Wayne Cherry, John Smith, and others in 1997, allowed for 4 billion over the course of a few years. However, GM has committed about an additional 2 billion to Cadillac over the next few years. To put that in perspective, so far Cadillac has spent about thrice the ammount Greece will be spending for security for the Olympics in Athens, and about 4% of the total yearly budget of the Federative Republic of Brazil.

I think you all will be quite overwhelmed when you see all the tricks Cadillac has up its sleave. Let's just put it this way: Cadillac will have a fuel-cell powered vehicle on the road based on AUTOnomy near the end of the decade...

Wait and see; imagine...

c1rybick · October 2002

The only teenaged or early 20's person that's gonna think a Cadillac is for them are the ones watching the rappers on MTV drive around in their Escalades.

Lexus overall ain't very appealing, but the IS300 sure is to this 18 year old.

It may also be hearsay, but I just read on the Intrigue forum that it was really Oldsmobile that developed the Northstar but Cadillac took the credit for it. I don't know how accurate a statement that is, however.

maxhonda99 · October 2002

wishinhigh, I take it personally you know the average young person? Yeah, I thought so, you don't. Otherwise you would know better.

You're calling me old? Wake up boy.

You may be 20, but you're one of the very few 20 year olds that thinks a Cadillac is "cool". Cadillac has been at the bottom of the barrel in terms of luxury cars and it continues to be.

pcbrs · October 2002

In all honesty, when I was shopping for my car, I DID look at the ES300 vs. IS300 vs. 330ci vs. A4 3.0 vs. 3.2 TL Type S vs C320. They were all in the mix, and I test drove almost all of them. I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but to me the 3 series represents a great blend of sport and luxury. Lexus has taken the approach of separating the two a bit more with ES300 heavily leaned towards luxury and IS300 towards sport. I chose the 330ci, but I sincerely believe many people compare the ES300 and 330i when shopping for an entry LUXURY sedan.

wishnhigh1 · October 2002

"You may be 20, but you're one of the very few 20 year olds that thinks a Cadillac is "cool"."

And you know how?! Maybe you can explain the 20 or so Cadillac Escalades and STSs, and the 4 CTSs that I see in the student parking lot every day.

I would have to say, of all the kids with the nice cars, most have BMWs...but many have Caddys. I have seen maybe 4 Lexus IS300s, but that is all the Lexi I see in the student parking.

magnetophone · October 2002

The only cars I see young people driving that are considered luxury are the BMW 3-series, the Mercedes C, and the IS300. I've never seen a young person driving a brand new Cadillac. Maybe in other regions things are different, but Cadillacs are not prevalent here, and those that are are base Devilles driven by older folks.

Again, all this song and dance about what Cadillac is about to bring out in 2003,4,5,6 is pointless until it actually happens. Where was Cadillac in 1996 when the Z3 came out? Or in 1997 when the ML320 came out? Where is an AWD Cadillac (besides the Escalade)? Where is a Cadillac station wagon, or a Cadillac with electronic braking?

Cadillac's resurgence is only contingent on their products actually existing in real time. The XLR is about to come out soon, but there's no way to tell if it's going to make an impact yet or not. Even then, they did not build an SL competitor. They built a car that competes with a CLK500 in price and is generally just a large RWD convertible. I don't see how they really redefined the sector. They're doing the same thing Lexus is doing, providing reasonable alternatives at lower prices. The difference is, Cadillac doesn't have Lexus' reputation of reliability.

magnetophone · October 2002

It's as simple as this - Cadillac has not created a car in the past 20 years or so that has become a trendsetter and copycat to other luxury brands. This is an essential for a true luxury brand that is setting an example.

Here's a few examples. In the mid 70's, the S-class, and E-class Mercedes set a standard in contemporary luxury design. It was emulated by everyone from the Cadillac Seville to the Ford Granada to some of the upper level Alfa Romeo sedans, if you want to be broader in your interpretation. The barge with the bank-like vault started with these cars.

Mercedes did it again with the 1980's model S-class and the 1990's version (which Lexus so dutifully copied with their current LS430).

BMW caused round headlights to become cool again, and the 3-series re-created the personal luxury coupe. Suddenly the CLK appeared, and Audi had to bring over a cabriolet model.

Audi's brand DNA has been copied to some extent from everything from the Lexus SC430 to the Ford Mondeo to the Proton Impian (if you know what one of those are.) If there are any two brands have caused true impact in the past decade, it's Audi and BMW.

Audi created the necessity for the clean, Bauhaus exterior, the high-quality interior which was so uncommon in the 1990's, and BMW reinvented the desire to have RWD sports sedans and coupes, whether we really wanted them or not.

What has Lexus done? Well, nothing in the styling department, but it has made the other brands learn what quality is supposed to be.

What has Cadillac done? I certainly don't see Art and Science showing up on the 2004 Audi TT, the 2005 Ford Five Hundred, or the 2005 Mercedes S-Class!

We haven't converted our E-classes to front wheel drive! We haven't installed heads-up displays in Audi A6's! We haven't seen a truck-like SUV based on the EuroVan show up rebaged as an Audi! We haven't seen carriage tops, column-mounted shifters, or BVLGARI instruments appear inside Lexi have we?

case closed!

magnetophone · October 2002

automotional: I believe I was talking about styling influence. The LS400 was not a styling influencer. And when I said that Lexus taught the other brands about quality, I was referring primarily to the LS400.

You do have a point. The Lexus SC430 is a hideous shape that can do the gorgeous TT no justice.

Why would I read Road and Track anymore? That's something a 7th grader reads while they're dreaming of a Lamborghini or a Camaro! I read Car, BBC Top Gear, L'Automobile, and Autoweek. Real tenets of motoring journalism.

magnetophone · October 2002

I remember when the Lexus LS and the Infiniti Q45 came out. It was the Infiniti that was considered to be the cutting edge styling, not the Lexus. The grille-less front wasn't exactly new (Ford Sierra), but this car got a lot more nods for being a more noticeable styling exercise than the LS400, which just looked like a Ford aero-treatment pasted onto a Mercedes S-class.

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