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Good designs work, so long as they are executed correctly. If a bolt is left off, or if parts are misaligned, or an adjacent part is in contact, or a component is manufactured incorrectly, it doesn't work correctly.
There is a difference, at least in my world.
I divide this stuff into three categories: 1) assembly defects (show up in the fist couple years or so, could be three weeks, or at delivery), 2) design defects (show up in time, sometimes before the warranty expires, sometimes not -- if you lease, who cares?), 3) wearout (you've got 100K or 150K miles on the car and something breaks -- oh well).
The cars that people walk over broken glass to buy (not lease) and that (not coincidentally) have really high resale (residual, for those of you in Rio Linda) values enjoy none of these, or if they do, to a much lesser extent.
Such vehicles do exist. The shame is that most people who can afford the best don't care.
Some owners of the new '07 S with as many as 20k miles report no problems.
I just don't see how we can ascertain the future of the S without the car even being a year old yet?
How do we know the LS will carry the traditional Lexus reliability bar? Maybe some should read the latest Toyota Camry "woes" boards and restrain judgement..
We can't with any certainty. But the early reports, both annecdotal and from JDP, are better than nothing.
How do we know the LS will carry the traditional Lexus reliability bar?
We don't with any certainty. But imho history is a reasonable guide.
And the new XK exactly epitomizes these new, more forward-thinking qualities. I'm excited to see a radical redesign for the XJ, but I don't want them to go so far as to it being non-recognizable as a Jag. The XK is, however, and it's done masterfully. It's like an AM DB9, at half-price. Bravo, Callum!
I may have to look at the XKR myself. But the 911 is oh-so-tempting...
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Well, lexusguy, Jaguar isn't really known for its high-quality interiors. It is known for style and luxury, however. Luxury can be defined in different ways- it doesn't automatically mean it has a beautiful interior.
I agree, however. At this price point, the 650ci, SL550, SC430 (if you want something slower and much less expensive), and even the 911 have better appointments.
But it's still gorgeous.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Toyota still doesn't understand how to design a proper headrest. I think though that its somewhat unfair to blame this all on Toyota. A vast majority of cars still either barely pass or fail IIHS rear impact tests. Today's cars are designed to look good on NHTSA tests, and until the government starts rating rear-impact tests, most car makers will continue not to care.
Pretty much the only two brands where you are guaranteed a "good" for rear-impacts across the entire line are Volvo and Saab.
That's not true. Jag interiors used to be really special. I know, I had an XJ-S, and have driven an XJ-12. The J-S was more luxurious on the inside than the SL500, BMW 850, and the SC400. Mercedes, BMW, and Lexus interiors have all improved since the mid '90s, while Jag went to cost-cut hell, bottoming out with the absolutely horrible '00 S-type interior.
Before I post on my overall impressions, which I will do when I get the chance, I've just got to say one single thing for now...
IMO...The Mercedes Benz S600 is absolutely hands down the nicest HELC sedan relevant to this forum.
More later.
TagMan
I sorta agree with that, but that word "manufacturing" doesn't sit well with me. It implies shoddy construction moreso than "reliability", IMO.
M
Interesting because Carbon Fiber is supposed to be so strong and all the supercars use it. I've seen many complaints about the SLR's brakes though, they apparently howl and sreech until they warm up, ceramics do that.
M
M
Their website could certainly use more explanatory material. Ideally showing us just what survey questions went into each of the categories.
Is this $CDN 700K (614K US$) worth it?
Maybe? Assuming you are affluent and indifferent to CR reports then the SLR McLaren may be just the car for you
When people are this rich, they tend to think money can fix everything, but I think they can be very LOUD complainers.
Too bad.
I feel there is reason enough for people to want to wait and see if there are any "LS 460 woes" reported by new owners.
I keep my cars beyond warranty periods myself. I spent minimal money in repairing and servicing my BMWs without a warranty.
How can that be you may ask?
I service my cars at an independent BMW specialist. After warranty I avoid BMW dealerships like a plague. Everytime I had visited a BMW dealership I got 4 digit repair quotes. Everytime I visit my independent BMW shop I got two digit repair quotes (except when I needed new brake pads and a new fan belt).
The very last time I had visited a BMW dealership for my old BMW I was presented with a 6K$ repair bill. Immediately after I brought my car to an independent shop and I showed him the bill and asked for a second opinion. Instead I was billed a few hundered dollars for new brake pads. Apparently the BMW dealership that billed me was incredibly dishonest or incompetent.
Howard I thought you live in Florida?
Cold winds and weather in Florida ? Does that mean non-bathing suit weather :confuse:
Playing golf is quite uncomfortable, but it still beats working, I guess.
When it warms up a bit, I have many test drives to do:
the LS 460, and as an aside, the GS350, the 335i coupe and the MDX sport; to list a few.
Bet they have a lot of frozen turkeys in Deweyland!
So it could just be a false assumption on my part.
Yes...it would be nice to hear from the Lexus camp every once in a while.
Oac...please get out of your rocking chair!
a temperature of 48 degrees during late November is what we call here an Indian Summer.
Enjoy your turkeys. We had our Thanksgiving dinner last month and we are still making club sandwiches from our leftovers.
We've just been through a terrible nor'easter here - flooding everywhere on one of the biggest travel days of the year. Lots of folks stranded in drowned cars and with flight delays.
I'm not going anywhere except across town tomorrow and things are looking decidedly better now than they have been all day.
Thanks for your good wishes.
(Month-old turkey?? YIKES!!! Careful not to get :sick: !)
Wow! Hope you have an antibiotic handy!
Even canned tuna sounds great after all that!
I actually eat turkey all year, so no big deal with tomorrow.
I wonder if I will be the only passenger on my flight tomorrow, since most everyone left already.
Love the indoor airport parking lot. Lots of HELC's, LPS's and premium SUV's to lust over! Maybe I will see my first LS 460 there tomorrow. (The auto show doesn't count.)
Happy Thanksgiving to all participants and hosts wherever you are!
And so have Audi's! I just had to say it. Best in the industry!
The A8's interior is simply stunning... there's nothing about it that feels cheap. Nothing.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
The stereo was good, not great. It was very tight and quiet on the road and the suspension was very good. The car drove smaller than it is. Acceleration was very good but not "rock your socks". Maybe it's just too smooth to really create that excitement. It is definitely tuned more for luxury than sport and felt closer to the Lexus than I remembered in past MBs. Maybe they want a piece of that pie. I found the breaks to be excellent but the steering was very overboosted. The old tight MB steering was not anywhere to be found.
After the drive, I got back in my 05 LS430 and it felt very, very similar. I don't see the price difference unless you love the looks and the prestige of the Benz. To me they've gone too far to the luxury side and have abandoned their Euro roots with this one. It's a very good car and one that I would love to be driven in if I had a driver but I found it to be rather uninvolving to drive. I think blindfolded one would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the LS and the S550.
And as I posted late yesterday, the S600 is the nicest sedan of the HELC group. It's a stunning standout. It's striking contemporary interior delivers the perfect balance of materials, ergonomics, comfort, and luxury, without overkill and without coming up short. The S600 hits the bulls-eye. Terrific vehicle that I will want (no, lust) to drive at some point in the future. That blkhemi is one very lucky fellow, I'll tell you.
Right on the heels of the S600, IMO, is the Audi S8. This S8 is such a beautifully crafted car. Wonderful in every way.
Overall, Audi interiors once again showed their merit. In addition to the awesome S8, the Audi RS4 was a favorite of mine. Terrific little car.
Jaguar is a car I have a soft spot for, and the XK/R did not fail to get my pulse going a bit faster. Ignore those back seats, as it is really a 2-seater for all practical purposes. Makes for a gorgeous convertible. The XJ is still an icon, IMO, but needs some more contemporary styling, inside and out. The rest of the Jags are irrelevant to me, as I only acknowledge the XJ and XK as true current Jaguars.
The Aston Martin vehicles are quite stunning, and I see even better times ahead for AM.
I love the Quattroporte, and took the opportunity to check it out closely. The rep was very clear about the transmission's shifting being smoothed out by way of updated software. I still need to drive this vehicle one day and see for myself. Beautiful car though, the Q, and one of my favorites.
The new BMW X5 was not at the show for some reason, although the rep said that they are being shipped to the dealers. I was hoping to see it. The all-new 3-series coupe is sweet, and is probably my favorite BMW at this point in time. The M6 convertible was a turn-off up close. The X3 is definately an improvement over the first edition, but it is still boring somehow.
Speaking of boring, the Lexus LS is just that. I spent a huge amount of time looking at the LS460, LS460L and the LS600hL, looking for things to like about them, and it was more difficult than I imagined. Because I spent so much time looking at them, I'll spend some extra time here going over my impressions.
Clearly the long wheelbase version of the LS is the way to go. Surprisingly, the LS's interior was so chock full of hard plastics that I was truly surprised. Sure there is leather and wood, but almost the entire center stack and parts of the center console as well as the instrument cluster sourrounds are all hard plastic, and the dash/stack layout is very conventional and common, similar to economy cars from a design standpoint.
The LS's seat was spongey, but comfy. It felt like there was likely a layer of memory foam or something. The standard LS's footwell was a bit tight, but not as bad as some have reported. Almost everything about this car seems very logical, but almost from a utility standpoint. This vehicle would clearly get someone from point A to point B with ease, but without much excitement. In addition, I don't think the prices are a bargain any more, IMO. I acknowledge that I must drive these soon to know the full picture.
The LS600hL is a bells and whistles LS, and I would never spend six digits on one, expecially when there are so many other much more exciting vehicles to choose from out there. I have clearly changed my mind on this vehicle, which I initially called a new exclusive benchmark. I now think it could easily be a very risky purchase.
The IS sure is a cute little Lexus, and it does get someone a decent Lexus for a reasonable price, IMO. Rear seat is tight, however. . . and it's no 3-series, BTW. Perfect for the young early driver, IMO.
The Maybach was ridiculously off-limits . . . dissapointing, of course.
Some other interesting highlights... One of the cool surprises of the day for me was over at Infiniti. I was pleasantly reminded how those interiors are so very tasteful, and the amount of car for the dollar is staggering. Every one of those Infiniti sedans and coupes is a bargain, IMO. The rep informed me that there are to be some serious updates coming from Infiniti, within 6 to 12 months. These cars are such obvious bargains, it is almost ridiculous.
A few quick little off-topics . . . the Toyota FJ Cruiser is chock full of cool factor. It's a slam-dunk winner. And the new Camaro concept was also cool. VW's Rabbit looks to be a bargain, but will it sell? Prefer the looks of the '06 MDX to the '07. The new '07 Jeep Wrangler should be called the world's first plastic car . . . horrible. Hold on to the originals. Honda's new CR-V is a winner, and the Tesla electric car is a Lotus-engineered and built sports car that goes 0-60 in 4 seconds and gets the equivalent of 135 mpg. Price of such environmentally-correct performance? Over $100,000. Sorry, I'll take a Porshce instead.
Speaking of which, The Porsches were as cool as I expected, and I now have the official delivery date of my 4S Targa. Tuesday, November 28th, and it seems that all new Targas can not be released before that date even though the cars will be in dealer's inventory. Oh well, less than 1 week.
Back to Mercedes for a moment. The E63 AMG deserves a mention. It gets my award for the show's best monster in disguise. Wow, what a machine disguised in an everyday E-Class sedan. I need to drive this animal.
Anyway, enough about the show for now. Yes, great fun . . . have a Happy Thanksgiving to all of you.
TagMan
M
I just pulled the trigger on an "almost-new" '07 XK8 convertible. It has 6,000 miles on the odo, and is Jag certified, so my warranty is actually much longer than if it was new with 0 miles. (Strange how that works). The engine babying period is also basically over, so I'm free to give the engine and transmission the proper workout that they deserve. The Jag's ZF six-speed is 95% of the fun of the Maserati's SMG, and is of course 1000x smoother in full auto mode. I'll try to post some pictures soon. Its silver\blue with a blue top. The interior is two-tone gray\tan with the full-leather luxury package and Burl Walnut.
Happy Thanksgiving!
M
W120/W121 1953-1962. Also known as Ponton.
W110 "Heckflosse / Fintail", 1959-1968
W114/W115 "Strich-8" 1967-1976
W123, 1976-1985
W124, 1985-1995
My personal favorite E of all time so far, the car I saw so much growing up. It was also the "300E" from this model series that started my love affair with Mercedes-Benz. I plan to have one of these one day, either a 500E/E500 or a 300CE/E320 Coupe.
W210, 1995-2002
W211, 2002-2010?
Some special E-Classes through the years:
W124 500E / E500 with the R129 500SL V8, 326-hp
This car is likely the most exclusive sedan Mercedes has produced in the last 20 or so years. It had a Porsche engineered chassis, exclusive interior and the engine from the 500SL of the day, unheard of during that era. In 1994 it stickered for about 80K and a good example can go for 30K still today. Today, the E550 and SL550 sharing the same engine is no big deal.
582-hp W211 Brabus E-Class
W124 Stretchlimousine
The weakest gasoline engine in the W120/W121 had 72-hp. Now, the weakest gasoline E-Class has 163-horesepower (a Euro model of course).
M
I agree. I sank rather deeply upon sitting in it.
Same with the S Class driver's seat.
Just the opposite of what a good driver's seat is supposed to do. I want to feel comfortable, but firmly in place for the matter at hand.
I also found the LS 460 disappointingly boring in appearance.
I found the new ES350 quite a bit spicier.
Thanks for the write-up.
Congratulations Tagman and Lexusguy.
Tagman,
thanks for the informative car show report. I do agree 100% with you about the 3 series coupe vs. the 6 series/M6. Bigger is not neccessarily better in this case. An new M3 coupe will be very interesting too.
Speaking of gorgeous, has anyone seen the new Bond movie? Very well done, without a lot of the corny/campy feel of the last 10 or so. All that to say, the new Aston DBR9 is to cars what mexican food is to me. A daily neccesity, or beauty in it's purest form. [I hope that got the point across]
Blkhemi, have you ever owned an Aston Martin?
Topspin, I can't get with you on the whole " you'd have a hard time telling the difference between the LS, and S if you drove them back to back blindfolded. To me their is a huge buttoned down feel in the Benz that is lacking in the S. The S feels more agile to me. I'm no Mercedes guy in general, but for that kind of money, the LS still doesn't drive right for me. [Although a very nice car in it's own right]
Tag, congratulations on the Porsche. I don't know who I want to be adopted by more, you, or Blkhemi lol.
I sure am thankful for this sight, and all the other car nuts like me, that make me feel a little more normal, for being so nutty about cars. But I'm even more thankful for my beautiful wife, as I can say with confidence that she is better looking than all of you...... :P
Happy thanksgiving Edmunds, and all who frequent.. :shades:
I was very dissapointed in the softer seats (too soft) and the very artificial over boosted steering. I've owned benzes in the past (82 300D,86 E Class,01ML) and they all had very supportive and firm seats that you could drive in all day without a complaint and very direct steering that gave you a sense of complete control. Those are the 2 items that are missing from my LS and I was counting on seeing in true MB form in the new S Class. Hence my disappointment. I think they dialed it back to the comfort, soft formula a bit too much for my taste. I may be more of a BMW guy now.
Never had any break dust problem with my GS. My chrome wheels are always shiny like new.
48 degree can be very uncomfortable if your home is not built for cold weather, but it can be very pleasant to play golf or test driving cars though.
By the way, the LS's little brother/cousin, Camry took the Motor Trend's 2007 Car of the Year award. This includes the hybrid model. See article here link title
. I would not doubt the success of the new LS regular and hybrid. There is no TOL in Toronto, but my salesman promise to give me a test drive of the new LS once it becomes available here.
Lexusguy, congrats on the new ride. Enjoy.
Happy Thanksgiving all.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
Merc - Thanks for the E-Class evolutionary pics. I hope you haven't altered the space/time continuuum .
I guess you picked up my monster-in-disguise remark about the E63 at the show. To think that the current E buyer can choose between a BlueTec diesel or an E63 AMG shows what this one car is capable of. Even though the E is not a HELC vehicle, it sure deserves a lot of respect. Thanks, again. If that pic I posted last week is indeed the new E, then it will surely continue its great success story.
Thanks to the rest of you with regards to the Targa...but, until I take delivery next Tuesday, it's not "official". I'll post after the final "official" outcome.
That XK/R won't get out of my head. Uh oh.
BTW, I saw some of those weather posts . . . it will be sunny and 59 or 60 degrees here today. Lexusguy would probably have the top down!
Happy Thanksgiving again.
TagMan
Well, I did say that I missed reading about 1750 messages at the end of the old HELM board, so maybe the answer lies there, but I have to say the above are 5 words I never expected to see come out of merc!
That's what I am thankful for today!
If this isn't enough to get Len to come back, I don't know what it will take. :confuse:
Congrats, I didn't see this the first time around. Pics after turkey!
M
M
Personally, I dislike it less than any previous LS.
So, from that standpoint, I acknowledge the improvement, but honestly, I'm not a fan of the car. I can't bring myself to feel anything for it. Respect, yes, but that's it. Sorry to the LS fans. Don't take it personal. I know the car is well built, and improved, but it is bland and boring to me. If I dig deep, I could find that it might appeal to me in a some sort of a logical way, but that's it.
TagMan
I have actually liked a LS model before though, the 1993 and 1994 LS400.
I too find the new car to be boring and kinda slab sided with an interior no different from any other Toyota model when it comes to design and layout, but still I like to cars too much to dismiss it completely. Haven't yet seen one on the road to really see how it "looks".
M
I understand completely. When I looked at and sat in the LS, I was logically impressed with the car, although I was seriously disappointed with the amount of hard plastic and basic dash/stack/console layout.
On the other hand, the Audi S8 and S600 left me wishing for one and truly admiring them. Big (really big) difference that can't be ignored.
Haven't yet seen one on the road to really see how it "looks".
Generally, they ALL look better on the road, being in motion and all that, so I don't think that matters enough.
Take care, and "give thanks" today for that beautiful CLK, and more importantly, all your loved ones.
TagMan