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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Nice to see the passionate H man back...I also found the bmw 7 steering to be feather light, along with the same complaints as you, the Mercedes looks, when seen in daylight, better and better after a shaky start, and with Tagman`s pictures of the Lexus vs Mercedes dash no comparison imo, the Lexus has been the reliable one, and the value leader ---but now I think way overpriced---If I were buying today and the mercedes is within ten or fifteen thousand dollars....hoooommmm.....Tony ps have been driving the Mazda rental, and I sure agree with you about the smaller sized cars being fun...I would think the bmw 3 would be all around great....
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Car And Driver tested 2 vehicles recently, A Lexus LS 460 and A BMW vehicle.
    Lexus reported a 0-60mph time of 5.4 seconds which the magazine's testers couldn't duplicate. They found the vehicle could only achieve 6 seconds.

    BMW reported its vehicle's 0-60mph time of 5.5 seconds. The magazine's testers found the time to be 4.8 seconds.

    Which company would you rather deal with?
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    We've already talked at length about that. Why bring it up again? Oh, wait, I know - you are trying very hard to get under some people's skin.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well thank you, Tony! You are truly a nice person. I spent Thanksgiving on Long Island's gold coast at my son-in-law's "chateau" where it's all 911's all the time.

    I believe I posted before Tagman that I feel the LS 460 was over-priced and would be "okay" at around $50k.
    Why anybody would shell out $64k and up is beyond me. It looks like a Toyota and has a driver's seat that causes you to sink down pretty deep. I have not driven one but I have seen the term "limo" used more than once in reviews of this vehicle and it is not meant as a compliment.
    I rented PT Cruiser and while it looked like a hearse, its steering was accurate and gave a good feeling for the road.

    Every Lexus I have driven has the same steering: light and numb.
    The question must be asked of Lexus: WHY???
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Which company would you rather deal with?

    Lexus, BMW, C&D. In that order.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Why would you or anyone prefer a LS460 as a high-end choice when there are better HELC's out there, which is not just my opinion, but overwhelmingly, general consensus?
  • sysweisyswei Member Posts: 1,804
    When a company provides data to a testing organization and is found to be quite a bit off in a manner that can be perceived as dishonest, I believe this is significant.

    A few weeks ago someone (drfill maybe?) posted a summary of C&D 0-60 times for ALL Lexus vehicles, and if I remember correctly, something like half the C&D times were LOWER than the Lexus-provided times.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Well if you can find that post, I would find those 0-60 times quite interesting.
    Thanks!
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Look at it this way hp. Nobody should get a vote unless they actually buy one of these helc's. Check the U.S. sales numbers for these helcs for as many years as you care to. I think you will find out that the overwhelming consesus winner is the LS. It has been the top seller in this segment in the U.S. for a least 10 years in a row. So it appears that I am in the overwhelming majority here while you are simply a very vocal minority cult member.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    What's a "cult" member? Someone who has a different point of view than your own?

    The LS has only been the best seller in the past because of its price. It was a good value play for those who couldn't afford the real thing, a Mercedes Benz S-Class, and Lexus attempted to make those folks' fantasy a reality by designing the LS as a carbon copy of the MB externally. But all one had to do was drive one, and apparently, the bubble burst.

    At this point in time Lexus is IMO playing a very risky game in driving the LS price upward significantly without justifying it with measureable performance improvement. It is no longer an obvious value play anymore. I do believe sales will be affected. I could be wrong, but I could also be right.
    The LS 460 is in rather scarce supply at this time on the highways and streets that I frequent. And yes, I admit. You don't want to go there. :P
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Well, I would say the LS is where the "smart money" people go because after 4 or 5 years they cost considerably MORE than the S Class.

    I guess we will just have to wait and see which car will be the 2007 sales champ. As if we didn't already know. ;)

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Gosh, this is the HELC forum isn't it? It has all the revelevance in the world here

    OK Tagman fair enough the C & D results are highly relevant for this forum. But what really stands out with these results is the fact that the new LS is not meant to compete with the perfromance of a BMW 7 series. Which by the way reminds me of that tumultous dispute we had in a Lexus forum when you said the following words:

    "The LS will steal sales from a 7 Series"

    Can you recall that dispute ;)
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The article was written from a performance perspective.

    That is exactly what I meant by the article being biased. No surprise.

    No Houdini it is not only in terms of performance that the LS was beaten by the S Class. According to C & D the S Class also beat the LS in terms of non-performance qualities such as driving comfort, rear seat space, trunk space and last but not least fit and finish.
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    The LS has only been the best seller in the past because of its price. It was a good value play for those who couldn't afford the real thing, a Mercedes Benz S-Class,

    Howard,

    I disagree. I think many if not most LS drivers can afford an S Class. I just think they chose an LS for its compelling value and top quality.

    A SWB LS460 at 62K US$ is compelling value. Unfortunately here in Canada a SWB LS460 at 76K US$ (85K CDN$) is no value at all, IMO.
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    Sounds like a dig at Audi. Audi doesn't need to be BMW or Mercedes-Benz as it does quite well as Audi. Sounds a bit of arrogant remark...as Audi every needed to be like them in the first place. As for the S6, one has to keep things in perspective. First of all, the S6 is 65 or so horsepower less than the M5. It is not mean as a competitor to the M5 or the MB. That is what the RS6 is and will be debuting at Geneva in March with a minimum of 530 bhp and higher. The RS6 is the competitor to the M5 and MB and it will easily outclass them and outperform them with ease. The S6 is not "lesser" in anyway as the M5 and the MB as it quite a beautiful performance machine. As for prestige Audi does quite well there qlobally. Let's not be fanboys - lacks credibility or worse yet it becomes like Autospies.com
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    I get what you're saying here, but Audi has stated over and over that they want to be on equal footing in status/prestige/clout with Mercedes and BMW.

    The S6 is a in-between car or tweener as LG calls it. I don't think they set out to compete directly with the M5 or E63, but the media will compare it that way.

    I think you know by now that I think the world of Audi, but beyond you and I and some others here Audi is lacking big time in the image department with luxury car buyers in the U.S. That is something that can't be denied and the global argument can only go so far.

    You know I'm an Audi fan which is why I want better things for them, but I'm not surprised at Edmunds take on the S6.

    M
  • louis427louis427 Member Posts: 4
    I am in the car search of a car for my wife. :confuse: Which one of these luxury rides would be perfect for her. I am about to buy myself a MB CLS55 AMG. What could I get my wife to keep her in the game with me. I really like the BMW 7 and MB S Class
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    There were many inconsistancies in this report. They called the fit and finish on the LS "flawless", yet it scored lower than the S. The LS got much better mileage than the S but they scored the same. The S has the worst mpg of the 5 tested yet tied for first in the ratings. The LS was quieter than the S at idle, under acceleration, and cruising but the S was rated better on nvh. I could go on and on.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • louis427louis427 Member Posts: 4
    WHich one will be better for my wife the MB S or BMW 7 Series. I want her to look good as well. :shades:
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Yeah I saw all that, but I had no idea that a comparo had been done when I first started joining in the melee.

    Of course I vote for the SL550!

    I have to say I was really surprised by the placement of the LS460. The previous LS430 and LS400 have been winners at C&D for years so to have hugely superior LS460L place last was quite a shock to me. The thing is though the previous LS models never had to face the S500, only the S430 and then it was usually a few years after the S430 and previous S420 were already on the road. The only time the previous LS430 faced a S500 was in 2001 in a MT comparo and the S500 won then too. Both the Benz and the Lexus are brand new and I don't remember that being the case in any other comparo before. Things change, but I still want to see what MT and R&T say about this. Then there is Automobile magazine. You gotta love how now all of a sudden C&D is so biased, yet in the past they put the LS over everything and they were right on the money then.

    The curious thing is that the 08' S450 is pegged at 5.9 secs 0-60 mph, right around what the LS460L does in real world testing and at a loaded price of 93K a S450 would likely be cheaper than a loaded LS460L. Change is something else.

    M
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I would just get her both. She can drive one during the week and the other on weekends. Then she will be looking good.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • louis427louis427 Member Posts: 4
    :confuse: WHich one will be better for my wife the MB S or BMW 7 Series. I want her to look good as well.
  • louis427louis427 Member Posts: 4
    :DI really can't afford both. I want to get her something that could come close to the performance as my CLS55 AMG but not to close. But something when someone looks at it they be like that is nice as my MB. :D
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Could be that they found the S550 to have even better fit and finish than the already good LS460L? Yep. The LS460L scored better in those categories you mentioned, but you left out that the LS460L's brakes were awful, trunk space was lacking, and it was found to have a less comfortable rear seat. The S550 had better handling and superior NVH control when it came to the engine. You aren't looking at the whole review only the categories in which the Lexus did well at.

    Lexus should be more careful about which features they decide to pick up from Mercedes. Mercedes has backed away from the electrohydraulic brakes just as Lexus starts adopt them in more of their cars - to bad reviews just like Mercedes got. Difference is though MB's version did stop the car in shorter distances in some tests with complaints about feel. Lexus' complaints seem to be about both feel and function.

    M
  • reality2reality2 Member Posts: 303
    They have changed. Both have more powerful powerplants and additional features not seen initially.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Audi actually won this comparo except that it was soundly beaten by the S in the...drum roll please... "Gotta have it" category. Can you believe that? If the S had still been behind they would have trotted out the "largest wheel well" category. Totally BOGUS.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I would not be surprised to find out the LS was a pre production model. I did not know the LWB was available yet. They said the LS was quieter even with a defective door sill. And that deal with the brakes has got to be an aberation.

    Seems odd that the LWB would be tested first.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    OK, I read the report a little more closely and the LS that was tested was indeed a PREPRODUCTION CAR. This throws the whole test into a cocked hat!! Talk about unfair. I simply can't believe C&D would do a test like this and try to sneak it by with one tiny little mention that it was preproduction!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Let's understand what's up for debate here, okay?

    Opinions about the vehicles are more than welcome. Opinions about posted relevant reviews are also very welcome as long as they are not used to cast aspersions on other members.

    Opinions of other members' opinions of cars or reviews or whatever reeeally are not on topic here and need to be left at the door. We are here to talk about cars, so lets do just that. We're not here to talk about each other at all.

    So let's go from there.
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Automag reviews are done months in advance so it isn't unusual that they test pre-production models. In fact it is done all the time.

    Pre-production might have helped the brakes and acceleration, but pre-production or not it still wouldn't have helped rear seat comfort or trunk space.

    M
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Over the last several years, admittedly, there probably were folks who were not willing to gamble on the mediocre Mercedes Benz quality control, who bought the reliable Lexus LS instead.

    As far as a potential MB buyer choosing the LS for "compelling value", I don't see it. The prestige factor of the MB S-Class is simply too powerful.
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    If the S-Class had been a press car, then it would've been called fair.

    As it stands, there is no winning when it comes to European cars. When one wins a comparo hands-down, then it's time to decide what it did not do so well.

    The wheel arches are too big. I can't figure out how to turn the a/c on. This car is too good. No winning whatsoever.

    It has to be said, all of these cars have some good attributes. They all have they're weakness and strong points. But because one is quieter with a slightly better interior fit/finish doesn't equate to being best in class.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I agree, all these cars are great cars. I can't wait for a real comparison to be done. I really don't care which one wins, I just want to see a fair comparo with a real LS production vehicle. The S could still come out on top, but until it does, in a real test, it hasn't won.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Auto mags are written for enthusiasts and are performance-oriented, cars like the LS will never stand a chance in their comparos. A simple fact of life.
    Auto mags are not interested in limos like the LS.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    There were many inconsistancies in this report. They called the fit and finish on the LS "flawless", yet it scored lower than the S. The LS got much better mileage than the S but they scored the same. The S has the worst mpg of the 5 tested yet tied for first in the ratings.

    Yes, some numbers are curious. With regard to mileage, they merely showed EPA figures as claimed by the manufacturer and 13 mpg across the board which I read as their test results for 475 miles with each car. However, there is no way all five cars yielded the same mileage unless it is an amazing coincidence. In any event, mileage did not factor into the test scores.

    BTW, if you want to see some curious numbers, look at the curb weights. They are rounded off too nicely, in striking contrast to what the manufacturers claim.

    I take Car & Driver with a grain of salt anyway. Of course, if the LS won, many would be singing a different tune.
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    I read the mpg figures the same way you did. No way they could all come out at 13 mpg over 475 miles. Very curious. I also agree that all the mags are suspect and have their own agendas.

    I own an RL, an LX 470 and a 350Z so I don't have a dog in this fight. I just have a lot of questions about this comparison. I have never seen a full fledged comparo like this one where one of the cars was a preproduction vehicle and very little was said about it. Of course, this is sort of a preproduction report anyway.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Of course, if the LS won, many would be singing a different tune.

    Exactly.

    Every other time the same magazine has put the LS430 and previous LS400 on top no one had a problem with it. If you notice when a comparo comes around like this at C&D the LS is almost always the model that has just been introduced. It has been this way since 1990 and this is not the first time they've used a pre-production sample to do a comparison with.

    To be fair some of the things like braking distance and acceleration could have been pre-production glitches, but this is Lexus we're talking about, quality is supposed to be oh so great all the time. Secondly the other issues that the LS460L had wouldn't have been cured by getting a specimen from a local dealers lot either.

    It just can't be accepted because the LS lost plain and simple.

    The A8L wasn't even a 2007 model, like in that 2003 comparo in which a 2003 S430 was used vs a bunch of 2004 cars. No excuses were accepted then about the S430 having a 5-speed transmission when the editors complained about it while the 04 S430 had a 7-speed that would have taken care of at least that problem.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Auto mags are written for enthusiasts and are performance-oriented, cars like the LS will never stand a chance in their comparos. A simple fact of life. Auto mags are not interested in limos like the LS.

    That isn't always the case though, not with C&D and the Lexus LS. Car and Driver has a history of putting the LS on top more often in this class than any other car in this class. This time however, others rode just as smoothly while handling better and the Lexus didn't have its usual price advantage. For 93K a Lexus loses some of its appeal and when other cars that deliever the expected ride comfort with better handling, and other practical measures and the difference is only 10 (not the usual 15-25K) it is easy to see why Lexus couldn't pull it off in a C&D comparo. All of Lexus' traditional strengths were met head on and its traditional weaknesses (handling, dynamics) were still there. Others comparos will vary I'm sure.

    Lexus has a much better chance with a Sport or whatever they're calling it, version of the LS460L in a MT or R&T comparo.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Wow! I took most of the day off to look at some cars, and I come back to THIS! You guys really had the gloves on, and to think I missed out on all that.

    Oh well, I was too darned busy purchasing a new Porsche Carrera S Cabriolet today. Yes, I did it. But, I purchased the six speed, and not the Tip. It was all quite smooth enough in spite of my messed up neck. Smooth as silk, especially compared to that Lotus. So, I guess, things really did work out by being patient and test driving.

    I came oh so close this morning to the SL550, such a beautiful roadster, but in the end I couldn't help from falling in love with that wonderful Porsche driving experience. I'll miss that cool kick in the pants from the Lotus, but I'm so happy tonight, I'll probably sleep in the car! (not really, but I'll admit I sat in my first Carrera that entire first night! LOL)

    Thanks to all for your support during the entire process. You were all very cool, and I appreciate it.

    :):D

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Congrats and enjoy!!

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • guestguest Member Posts: 770
    There are many differnt ways to respond to "The Test".

    Lexus has won many times before, and NO ONE in "team Europe would step up and give the LS430 it's due, much less say it was a better luxury car than a S430, so I will not respond in kind on that front.

    Post #21403 covered some, but not all of the flaws in the test.

    The magazine all but said the LS was the best luxury car in the test, but they didn't enjoy driving it.

    That said, it's hard to justify putting the best luxury car last in a test of luxury cars. :confuse:

    I see no evidence that the Touring Pkg, was used on the LS, thereby creating an apples-to-apples comparison vs. the S550, which they special requested had handling-biased options included.

    Another problem I have is, let's say the S550 has the best luxury vs. performance mix of the group. And let's say the 7 was the best performance car, and the LS the best luxury car.

    Does that mean the A8 and Jag are better cars than the LS? Even though they never excelled, and the A8 was downright slow?

    How could the LS430 win all those tests, when it was NEVER performance-biased, and was ALWAYS the best luxury car? When did the criteria change for this class?

    Obviously, the LS460L is better than the LS430, so how does it go from 1st to last, even losing to cars the LS430 beat easily before?

    How do you load up a luxury car with $20k in luxury options, skip the performance option, then complain that car acts too much like a luxury car?

    Is C&D judging the cars based on what buyers in this class expect, or what they want (but aren't buying)?

    Does this test damn the LS460L as an inferior redesign?

    Did Lexus accomplish it's mission with this car? Are they building a car to a market, or will they totally miss the target, as C&D seems to assert?

    If the car had a comprehensive standard luxury features list, what's with the $20k in options? It easily won in luxury features battle, but that imbalance cost it the war.

    I am disturbed by the braking distances, and there really is no excuse for that!

    My main issue is if C&D wanted a performance vs. luxyr balance, get the car that will do the job. The LS had no Touring Pkg., had more luxury features than the more expensive S550, and was penalized for essentially being too luxurious. You don't have buy options that diminish truck space, then say "Small trunk". Really?

    Did I expect the LS to win? Maybe. It's obvious a $100k+ LS460L (with Touring) would've been as luxurious as the S550, whch is a victory in itself. I didn't expect the LS to win many performance test, except maybe be close to the Jag at the top of braking tests.

    And the car was not Lexus production-grade, which, so I've heard, may be above all others.

    C&D is still my favorite magazine, but I'm not exactly thrilled with there "new" test rating system.

    Dec 06 issue: There is no way the Rabbit beats the Mazda 3 in a comparison test. Not acceptable. The Mazda was the best car, faster (almost 1 sec), better handling, better braking, better looking, even more efficient (3 MPG!)! And it's not a hatchback.

    In closing, all I can say is people are questioning Toyota quality, and I'm questioning C&D comparos! What is the world coming to? :sick:

    Congrats to Mercedes. I'm sure the S550 is a great car, and they'll have some monster sales, but I am not impressed. And the LS train will not slow down one iota.

    If you've ever seen those Coors Light commercials, that "Love Train" is Toyota and/or Lexus.

    Plus, the Lexus is good-looking! ;) Call me superficial, but if both girls can cook, send me the one who knows how to dress! Woo-woo! Woo. :shades:

    DrFill
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Boy that was a lot Doc. Sorta of a back-handed congrats to the S550 for beating the LS460L I guess.

    Now you question C&D's comparos saying that they're "flawed", but to make it seem fair you temper it with a question about Lexus' quality. Smart, but I can see right through that Doc.

    Lots of woulda, shoulda, coulda in there about 100K LS models, touring packages and what not.

    One thing isn't clear though, they said that the S550 had optional air springs, which can't be true because Airmatic with ADS is standard. Question is did this car have Active Body Control, it might have.

    In closing, Lexus sales and what not will continue as you painstakingly state, but now a C&D comparo won't and can't be part of the party line.

    M
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    Congrats on the Porsche, pics when you get a chance.

    M
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Plus, the Lexus is good-looking! Call me superficial, but if both girls can cook, send me the one who knows how to dress! Woo-woo! Woo.

    Woo-woo! Woo????? for a Lexus?????

    WHOA!

    As you know, I don't think the LS looks good at all, but since you think it does, how do you explain the Lexus camp's suggestion that only knuckle-headed Eurocar fans would ever buy a car because of its good looks instead of so much smarter reasons such as reliability. We've heard that jab many times before.

    But now that you think the LS is a looker, it's suddenly OK to buy a car based on good looks?

    And another thing... It wouldn't matter WHAT Car & Driver, or anyone else for that matter ever says about your perfect LS... you will ultimately defend that car no matter what.

    Every good review is the truth and every bad one is distorted somehow. Amazing.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Congrats on the Porsche, pics when you get a chance.

    Thanks!!

    I obviously know how to insert web-based pics, as I've often done that, but how would I place personal pics into a post?

    TagMan
  • merc1merc1 Member Posts: 6,081
    All true, all true. I knew it would happen. Live by the comparo, die by the comparo. All those years the S430 lost comparo after comparo it was the norm around here for it to be dismissed, but the lukewarm first drives and now one comparo of the new LS460L are not be believed. Even though they're being given by the same folks who raved about the previous LS430. There is no old S-Class to compare to this time around, things change.

    For pics I use imageshack. You can upload pics and resize them and they give you the code to post in forums like this. All free of course.

    M
  • deweydewey Member Posts: 5,251
    Tagman,

    congratulations on your new Porsche Carrera S Cabriolet.
    Look forward to hearing more about your car in this forum.

    Dewey
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Actually, you've got your own free space right here: http://www.carspace.com/tagman.

    Congrats - can't wait to see some pics!
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "I am disturbed by the braking distances."

    When I shop for a car, the most crucial measurement I take away from a car review is the braking distance.
    That number alone in the comparo would have crossed the LS off my list.

    Given the price range that Lexus is charging for this vehicle, excellent brakes should be a given. There is no excuse for this from a major luxury manufacturer.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    You overlook the start of my post, which I thought was the most significant part.

    When the shoe was on the other foot, for YEARS, the LS has not gotten anything close to 1st place status here. Wasn't even really considered a HELM car without bloodshed?

    So if you are looking for some contrition from me, or any of by bretheren, you can forget that!

    Strangely, nothing was changed by this comparison.

    The LS has been, and is still, the superior luxury car, according to C&D, and many buyers.

    What has changed is the ranking system by C&D.

    And I see no excuse for ranking the A8 and 750i ahead of the LS.

    The 7 is a nightmare to look at/use, and isn't half the luxury car the LS is, but it is more fun to drive/more of a performer.

    One more ting, Merc....

    I never stated I was some authority on Mercedes history. Just a passenger once in a $60k E-Class.

    The seats were embarassingly hard. Durability is no excuse for that, as you'll know, Lexus has no problem with the durability of their leather seats. Duarable and rich. Could Mercedes pull that off? I guess not. :confuse:

    Steel chairs are quite durable, but I'd never spend $60k to sit on one... :sick:

    DrFill
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