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Comments
DrFill
I would lay my life on the line for a 550i, but the cursed iDrive is standard, so I shall live quite a long time, I figure.
I SHOULD be an avid BMW fan, but their interiors are atrocious. Couldn't see myself spending years inside those prisons.
Someday, BMW will complete the circle. Someday.
DrFill
If you were REALLY a BMW fan, you'd be in a BMW and you would not be going "Woo, woo, woo "over a Lexus!
TagMan
You seem to be missing the BMW message.
A plain vanilla LS460 has a listed MSRP but is not offered at MSRP? Sort of like an ice cream vendor offering a scoop of vanilla to you for $1.00 but will only sell it to you if you order it with fudge for $5.00.
I am no lawyer but this sounds like misleading pricing to me? I am sure that if a customer personally visits a Lexus dealership he will be able to order a 62K$ LS460, otherwise what is the point of listing it for sale for around $62K :confuse:
I love the way BMWs are priced since I hate gizmos. I end up spending not so much money since both my 5 and 3 series are optioned with a modestly priced Sport Package and a metallic paint colour. Nothing more and nothing less. I would not have it any other way.
Even in restaurants I hate fixed menus where I am forced to eat things that I hate like a tofu salad. A La Carte and freedom choice is the only way to go IMO.
This is nothing new. The ES and RX were technically "available" (I'm not sure if they still are) with no options and cloth seats, but there's not a chance that any dealer would order any like that.
Try a test drive in a 335i sedan like Dewey got.
The 3 and 5 are both highly rated in safety testing, by the way.
I had a close call once with an inattentive cell phone driver in a king kong SUV. She was coming into my lane on the interstate-problem was I was already there. My 2002 325i's extraordinary agility allowed me to avoid contact with her.
I don't think I would have been so lucky in a Lexus LS.
PS- I always rent compacts at the airport-usually a blast to drive!
Forced to eat a tofu salad? Intolerable, unless located in Hollywood or Beverly Hills, where it would be normally expected.
TagMan
You seem to be missing the BMW message.
That's a bullseye. Definately for the 3 and 5 series.
But, I still have the feeling that the upper series buyers expect a somewhat more luxurious interior.
TagMan
Volkswagen, which moved up to No. 2, and BMW and its Mini brand, tied for third, also earned high marks in Kelley Blue Book's survey for the 2007 model year, as foreign brands took almost all the top honors.
Ford Motor Co. brand Land Rover came in fourth, and Porsche AG rounded out the list of the top five brands. Toyota Motor Corp. brands replaced Porsche in the fifth spot when vehicles produced in low numbers were excluded.
These 2006 models had the best resale value in their category:
• Sedan: Acura TSX
• Luxury: BMW 5 Series
• Coupe: Honda Civic
• Pickup: Toyota Tacoma
• Convertible: MINI Cooper
• Sport Utility: Acura MDX
• Wagon: Volkswagen Passat
• Van/Minivan: Honda Odyssey
• Hatchback: MINI Cooper
• Hybrid: Toyota Prius
source WSJ
Actually, I think the interior of the 3 is pretty good, and the X5 has one of the best interiors in the business. The 3 is better than the C-class, (especially the economy car pre-refresh C-class). The A4's interior is nice, but it looks very dated at this point. I think the 3 is at least on the same level as the IS350 and the new G, and better than the TL.
And regardless of whether or not we see the merits of the interiors in the lower series, I understood hpowder's post to mean that the interiors are not the highest priority for BMW, and I also thought that he meant the first priority would be the vehicle's driving dynamics/performance.
Even though you and I might agree that the 3's interior is nice... my response to hpowders was that BMW's priority is indeed on driving dynamics, but mostly in the 3 and 5 series, and I believe that as we get into the upper series, a luxurious interior then starts to become A (not THE) higher priority.
Perhaps that is clearer.
BTW, nice pics of that beautiful XK!!!
TagMan
We're wandering into other territories... let's get back to where we need to be, okay?
Approaching $92k, the car had most of the marbles it takes to compete in this class.
Upon close examination, and to my surprise, Lexus has actually dropped the ball in interior assembly as I can attest to this because there was a leftover '06 LS430 on hand for comparison.
The panel gap tolerances have actually gotten wider(not a good thing in this class-not even the $18k compact car class nowadays). The seats don't have the same tight seams that were on the previous car, and they're just as slippery. The whole interior is just a bit underwhelming in that it doesn't offer that WOW feel of the German cars or the XJ, more like ES350 Premium upgrade.
That being said, the exterior is a bit staid but it does flow better than the LS430 could ever dream of. The new lines are, dare I say, more graceful and in an attempt to become more Euro- contempary, not a bad thing.
But it's in the overall refinement where Lexus spent the beans for this car. I don't think it bests the A8 or S550 for outright refinement(the three all nip at each other IMO in this regard), but the Lexus quality does ring through. The powertrain is a marvel of one, particularly from this maker, but it too doesn't come off particularly superior to the Euros, despite what many of you may believe an 8-speed tranny can do.
With all of that, I'd still be hard pressed to take one over an A8 or S550. The design isn't a quantum leap over the LS430 in that it doesn't make you totally forget about that car like an S550 does(for good or bad). And the still too conservative interior and blah-blah/so-so handling is still a major drawback for me personally.
But this is still a much deserving car to be in the place it's now, but the 3-pointed star followed only by an inch the 4-looped rings will be my favs for sometime to come...
With a few options that I would want added to the base 2007 4.8 L V-8 X5, I came up with an MSRP of $74096, a true high-end vehicle.
And yes, Tagman. That is exactly what I was attempting to convey about BMW's.
I personally enjoyed your post about your visit to the Lexus dealer to see the LS460L. When I examined the vehicle at the show, I thought that the interior was too typical and "conservative" as you put it, but I thought the interior fit/finish/workmanship were actually very good. I am a bit surprised that you were disappointed in that, but then again, I did not have the previous model to compare it to as you did. My other beef was the large amounts of hard plastic around the instrumentation, and throughout the center stack/console.
I am curious about your perspective on that rather large $92K ticket. I am of the opinion that the price of the Lexus is now too high to be considered the great value it once was. In fact, I believe it is now somewhat overpriced and much more vulnerable to competition than it was in the past. What do you think about this?
TagMan
Well the time has come, and as predicted, the new LS460(especially in L) is no longer that "value-conscience, sensible" buy that it was once was. In fact, it now poses as the least "valued" LS of all 17 years.
Speaking of 17 years, that's all this company has. MB, Audi, BMW and Jag can all charge a premium as they've put in work over countless decades to do so. So the whole "S550 is way to overpriced" arguement is thrown out of the window as the we now see what the LS460L charges just to play ball with the almighty S550.
IMO, Lexus, with their high dollar cars, has strayed away and abandoned their philosphy of "we offer what they offer, for considerably less".
To put it in more prospectives: The '00 MB top-dog, the S500, costed, on average, 78-80k. The new S550 is at 90-95k in most forms.
The LS400 of 2000 hit at 49k(if you could find one). The 2001 LS430 rang in at 55k for starters, on average, about 62-64k.
The new LS460 starts off at roughly 64k. To compete with the big dogs, you have to go L, and with a few options, that puppy swells from a low of 70k(you will not find one like this because even if you try to order it, Lexus only builds very few, if any for our markets- Oh, and you have to buy option packages on Lexus vehicles) to an ultimate of $96k. Where's the value? Those are some pretty sharp increases, no matter how you cut it folks.
Sorry, but the LS is no longer a value. Does that make it a bad buy? Heck no, it's still a Lexus, and to the folks that luv'em, buy up, as this is still a pretty sturdy ride.
But you can no longer beat up the other cars because they're marginally higher. With the exception of the Benz, the other cars in it's class are now in the same price point.
BTW: I wasn't upset about the LS' interior. It's just not what I expected it to be, not much of a vast improvement. The panel gaps are the worse tho. And that hard plastic is way out of line. In line for a $32k Chrysler 300C HEMI as it is a value enough, out of line for the supposed quality king of interior materials and workmanship
Alas, I will be waiting out in the front yard for you to wisk me away in the new Carrera.
In two years or so, it's going to be SO hard for me to choose between the XKR and a 911... wow... decisions, decisions. The XKR has a price advantage (95 more hp for about the same price as a Carrera Cabriolet with my options), but a Porsche will always be a Porsche. I'll have to drive both.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
Speaking of 17 years, that's all this company has. MB, Audi, BMW and Jag can all charge a premium as they've put in work over countless decades to do so. So the whole "S550 is way to overpriced" arguement is thrown out of the window as the we now see what the LS460L charges just to play ball with the almighty S550.
Tag
Two Tings!
First, the Lexus LS460 is still a stud value, it's just changed the formula to capture more conquest sales. The LS460 is still a tremendous value, when compared to a S550 or 750iL, it just doesn't compare in rear legroom.
Popularly equipped, it's still $25k less (at around $75k) than the $100k S550. I think $25k is quite a bridge to cross, especially after having driven both cars back-to-back.
The L is a different idiom, and is still $15k less, in general. And it offers features not commonly available in this class, enhancing it's value if you buy luxury cars for the features, which many do. The L version IS A STRONG VALUE.
If you want a $90-100k Lexus LS, that's fine, it'll have more features than the S550, much less an A8/750.
The LS460L is not a $90k car. But it can be. I don't think we refer to the S550 as a $120k car, although it can be. So let's try to be fair on this front.
I was the main one PUSHING for Lexus to go upmarket with this car. Why? Growth of the brand, and it's image.
The New LS is better than the LS430 in every way. To such an extent, that you can't really charge the same for it. The L will sell BIG! Maybe better than the 430, and enhance the brand's image in the process.
The LS460 is still there to handle current LS owners looking to replace a car they love, and wouldn't change.
Hemi
Implying the 300C has any interior similarity to the LS is a joke. It hurts your credibility when you say things like that. I've driven the 300, and know the 300 has a particularly weak interior design quality, but has decent ergonomics. The 300 and the Lexus have NOTHING in common!
If your gonna bag on the LS, at least make it plausible, ok? Thanks.
DrFill
It's much more civilized here. And I wouldn't have it any other way.
I'm assessing all the cars in the high-end class, from worst to best:
Jaguar XJ: Old-world British charm just doesn't cut it any more. This car is beautiful to some tastes, and horrifically retro to others. With an underwhelming 300hp V-8, it doesn't move you like the others, but it's not far behind with its ultra-lightweight aluminum construction.
BMW 7 Series: Made a huge splash when it came out in 2002, but I feel like its fifteen minutes of fame are over. The interior is nicer (and even more complex) than most people think, and the driving dynamics are ample, if not class-leading. The AWD A8 and powerful S-Class both have handling that's at least as good, if not better. This car just isn't a leader any more, and with a starting price of $75K, won't see too many people buying it over an S-Class.
Lexus LS460: The Lexus owners will argue, sure, and this isn't a bad place to be for the Lexus. Especially in this exquisite company. The LS460 delivers in luxury, which is obviously the strongest point in this class. But, so do all the others. And what it's lacking are curbside appeal and sporting pretensions. Even though sporty driving isn't a top priority, in the Jaguar, BMW, Audi and Mercedes, at least you know it's there when you want it. The LS has also gotten significantly pricier this year. $67K for LS460 and $77K for LS460L. Interesting that Lexus made the L version $10,000 more- that's a Porsche-like move, and not commonly seen in this class. The avg is more like a $4,000 difference. An odd extra is the self-park feature. Is it worth it? I'd sure like to try it out.
Audi A8: Yes, it's still up there. The style hasn't gotten old, the interior is still the best this side of a Bentley Conti GT, and I drove a 2007 A8 SWB the other night. Boy, was I impressed. Much faster than the 2006 version. Like a slightly less racier, much more luxurious, sedan version of my car. Which it is! If you can't swallow the S550's steep sticker, the A8 is the best combination of luxury and performance. Its key strong points include AWD, the interior, and the fact that it feels like an A4 behind the wheel. In most of the others, it really does feel like you're driving a barge. Not so with the A8.
Mercedes S-Class: Mercedes was falling behind, but the star gleams once again with the new S550. Beautiful inside and out (though the exterior doesn't cater to some tastes), excellent driving dynamics, and some exorbitant luxury features that aren't seen even in its Maybach cousin. Of course, greatness comes at a price, and the S-Class is dear. But it's hard to resist. A bonus is the massive curbside appeal that none of the others can match. It truly could be the best car in the world.
Just my analyses.
'06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
"I don't care what kind of tires the Lexus LS 460 was wearing when you tested it. A 209 foot braking distance from 70 mph to standstill is simply unacceptable for a Lexus flagship. A few pages later in your "full size SUV comparo" the worst braking competitor-Lincoln's 6119 pound Navigator-managed to stop in an identical 209 feet. Hell, I can buy a 5629-pound Range Rover that stops in 165 feet. Relentlessly pursuing perfection? Lexus should be embarrassed."
Dylan Brooks
Stamford, Connecticut
Car and driver responds
"We tested an LS460L this month [page 102] and recorded a not-much-better 207 feet." Ed
It is laughable, and if we are going to give Lexus a brake because it was a pre-production model, then we should maybe give one to Audi since it was a no more production 06 model. The 07 has 15 more horses.
Anyway, Buy what you love, not what somebody else loves. As far as the Lexus being the poor man's S class, I'll say this. If your not with the one you love, love the one your with.
Just commented that I was surprised at it's ability, considering the fact that the way people talk, the car should fall to pieces when pushed, which it didn't. No tire squeal, no oversteer, no hyper-roll. And I gave it as good a shove as possible while keeping it on course.
Can't make an absolute judgement from an intense 30-45 sec. ride, doh.
DrFill
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
If you want a $90-100k Lexus LS, that's fine, it'll have more features than the S550, much less an A8/750.
Doc, for days now you've been mentioning all these additional features found on the LS460, that are not found on the competition. And here you go again with these quotes, up above, from your post this evening.
Other than the highly criticized and contraversial self-park thing, list all those important additional features out for us, cause I am not so sure that the list is nearly as significant as you seem to keep implying. But I'm open minded. So, bring on the list.
TagMan
Interesting perspective.
Regarding the Jag's "underwhelming" 300hp. Consider this interesting comparison.... the new high-performing BMW 335 coupe weighs in at 3571 lbs. and is rated at 300 hp / 300 lbs. of torque.
The XJ Jag, on the other hand is aircraft aluminum and weighs in at only 3726 lbs. That's only the difference of one 155 lb. passenger. It's rating is 300 hp / 310 lbs. of torque.
VERY close in terms of HP / weight ratios, as the JAG comes in a little over 12 lbs per hp and the BMW comes in at just under 12 lbs. per hp.
Just a little perspective.
When I drove the new XK the other day (before I decided on the 911 CS) I was amazed at the spirited performance of what is essentially the same 300 hp engine placed in yet again another aircraft aluminum Jaguar.
TagMan
C&D said it best, when they gave the LS a 10 for lux features, and the S550 an 8. But the Exec Pkg., the 9" DVD Player in the headliner, and of course the Auto-Park are a nice 3-some.
Good night, Tag!
DrFill
Later, Doc. Get a good night's sleep so that tomorrow, you can list some of them for me.
The rear multimedia is not exclusive to the LS. And it's cheaper in the LS. For example, even the Jaguar has two beautiful color monitors built into the headrests, much better than the single screen in the LS's headliner, as more commonly seen in SUV's.
The auto-park? That's it??!! That's your list??
You can do better than THAT! Can't you?
TagMan
Isn't that amazing? A company with only 17yrs of history is making cars that are far better engineered/manufactured than companies that have been in business for a century? The decades of wasting time and making shoddier and shoddier cars never endear the company to consumers, witness the domestics. What people pay up for is what the company has done, _lately_. Longevity of a brand hardly correlates with either price or value. Take for example, Maybach, which had been not been making cars for some 60 years since Dr. Goebbels gave that total war speech in 1943. Yet newly revived it charges three times as much as a typical S class. On the other end of the spectrum, Oldsmobile died as a brand despite longevity, after decades of making shoddy cars. Olds was the second oldest brand in the world; should be a warning to MB.
LS has not been selling on value alone for years. The reality of monthly lease cost has long preceded the convergence of MSRP's. For some of these cars, MSRP's are nearly meaningless anyway. How many original S class buyers dare/care to own the vehicle past warranty anyway? Whatever MB puts forth as the lease price is what moves the car. Just look at the R class, 2007 model is $5000+ less than 2006 model in MSRP, but magically the lease numbers work out to be $50/mo lower for 2006. So how many people in 2009 will be willing to pay $5000 more for a 2006 over a 2007 as the MB published residual implies? The MSRP's are completely detached from reality. The monthly lease price is what connects the product with consumers for the majority of MB cars.
I was also a fan of the SC300. Not enough to actually buy one (maybe if it was offered as a convertible I might have), but it had a great stereo with a very unusual factory 12-disc changer (although mp3 CD capability and hdds eliminate the need for that many discs in modern cars), excellent brakes without a hint of grabbiness, and probably the best steering Lexus has ever done, short of the IS300. Very nicely weighted with good road feel.
I really dont get what drfill sees in the SC430. It lost the SC300\400's good styling, and lost all of the performance. The SC430 is a really boring car to drive. A CLK AMG makes it feel like a big Buick by comparison. Most cars make it feel like a big Buick, actually.
I'm still more compelled by a company like Honda however,that seems to be more of an engineering/racing company, as opposed to Toyota's manufacturing prowess.
Folks who say they wouldn't touch a BMW 7 Series because of its interior aren't being realistic.
Isn't great steering, cornering and braking and the secure feeling you get in the BMW because of these things done well what it is all about?
Given the LS460 with its fancy wood and premium leather vs. the 7 Series with its impressive driving dynamics; the choice should be obvious.
The BMW can help save your life.
You think it has anything to do with the fact that we have hosts here and Autospies doesn't?
Believe me, if this was an open forum, there would be blood in the streets, as many of us would have reached the "braking point" a long time ago! :surprise:
Some did reach the breaking point and created the High End European Luxury Sedans board last year, while others, more recently, quit this board and refuse to talk to us here, instead sticking together on the LS board.
Isn't great steering, cornering and braking and the secure feeling you get in the BMW because of these things done well what it is all about?
Given the LS460 with its fancy wood and premium leather vs. the 7 Series with its impressive driving dynamics; the choice should be obvious.
The BMW can help save your life.
Another rational post, huh? Now the preproduction LS is unsafe to drive?
Having driven both cars, yes, the choice is pretty obvious. The LS is definitely the car people will want a long-term relationship with.
The 7 can be your one-night stand. If you're going to the track, take the BMW. Otherwise, take the LS.
DrFill
The BMW can help save your life.
Thats great, except most of the segment can at least come close to the BMW in performance, and all have much more impressive interiors. That, and until BMW makes a 7 series with X-drive, the AWD cars will be safer than the BMW in bad weather conditions. There's only so much ESP can do on a RWD car.
Just look at some of those unsupervised forums. It gets pretty ugly!
I'll take the BMW every time. A real confidence builder.
Did someone drop a neutron bomb in those LS forums?
Apparently there is no living being inhabiting those LS forums?
Those LS euphoric tunes from yesteryears that were sung in this forum and elsewhere sounds alot today like a silent death knell. Or even worse as silent and death-like as a Lexus ride which could become real death-like if you dont press those LS brakes hard enough
In fact the only survivor singing those LS tunes in this forum is DrFill himself. DrFill I do admire your resilience and I as sure there will be other LS survivors who will appear in a few years boasting about how perfect the new generation 2012 LS will be. Also I am sure that in 2011 we will hear a top Lexus executive claiming how the 2007 LS was not at all competitive to German marques but the 2012 LS will be completely different.
IMHO, Honda's decision so far has its merit: I don't believe for a moment there is anything intrinsic about German vs. Japanese (vs. American); making a well-engineered/manufactured and reliable car is about methodology. Small volume would by necessity result in less engineering budget to work out the bugs and less capital investment for automation. That means product variation (not "variant")and quality issues. When engines and cars are hand-made, there can be no quality consistency; even Toyota can have engine failure on its race team. Honda can certainly make do without something that might sully its reputation for reliable engineering.
LOL!!
Probably will be claimed as a "7 killer" too and will be just about as accurate as Danny Clements coming out to praise the GS450 as the "5 killer" in 2005.
Has ANYONE yet verified the LS's 0-60 claimed times? Or does reality prove otherwise?
The brakes suck... that's become a fact at this point.
The hyped park-assist is contraversial in reality to say the least.
The "world's first 8-speed transmission" is in reality nothing but a marketing ploy to one-up the Mercedes 7-speed, as admitted by Lexus executives.
The overall marketing impression that this car is somehow loaded with tons of features not found on any other car in its class is a joke and a half. Even Drfill posted numerous references to all the bountiful rumored extras, yet when I asked him to identify them, he came up short. Why? Because it is an indication of the hype that is so much associated with the LS.
Toyota Motor Co. practically owns the list for the worst vehicles when it comes to safety. They have more unsafe vehicles at the top of the least-safe category than any other manufacturer in the world.
How many people know THAT?
Funny how Toyota/Lexus has fooled so many for so long.
I truly hope that this bubble is either about to burst, or will be letting out a lot of air very soon, and let the real truth become known... instead of TMC's history of the real truth being overshadowed by clever marketing hype.
In the meantime, expect much more hype from TMC. Count on it.
TagMan
I have to say that I have never seen a supposed full fledged comparison where one of the comparees was a non production vehicle. C&D hardly even mentioned the fact. I see a retraction coming.
2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460
So, have fun while you can because it won't last.
I see a retraction coming.
We will all see more truth soon enough.
TagMan