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High End Luxury Cars

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Comments

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    And what's better about the LX470 than the Range Rover? I'd MUCH rather have a Range Rover...

    esf,

    I agree with you. I'd also rather have the Range Rover any day.

    The LX470 and the Range Rover are in entirely different leagues. The LX470, which is obviously a Land Cruiser, is indeed a credible SUV, although too old, IMO... but to compare it to a Range Rover, well... that's absurd, IMO.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    but rather the ultimate real-life typical retail price that results when typical options, packages and accessories are taken into account and added to the MSRP.

    That doesn't make any sense at all because as we know "rea-life typical retail price" and "MSRP" are two usually completely different numbers. There is no "real life" in "MSRP." If you want to stick with MSRP, forget about "real life."
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    There is no "real life" in "MSRP."

    LOL... Whatever.

    Rather than get into semantics, let's just accept Edmunds' criteria and try to not over-analyze it. The MSRP plus "real-life" typical add-ons is the point.

    TagMan
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Therefore the spirit and intention of the $60K price arena is more than met by real-life pricing, and further the GL represents MB's top tier SUV, and that also gives further merit to it's inclusion here. It's pretty darned obvious, for goodness sakes.

    Fine with me. If that is your criteria then we can also include the Cadillac Escalade ESV at MSRP of $59,000.+, the GS 450h at MSRP of $54,000.+, and even the QX56 at $54,000.+. These all have MSRPs as much or more than where the GL starts,and with your typical add ons they would certainly be over $60,000. So the more the merrier.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Mercedes is notorious for adding "options" that really should be standard. Before you know it, the price is easily $5K - $15K or more higher than the base price. It's been one of my criticisms of Mercedes for a long time.

    Your point is well-taken, but perhaps just to create an argument... I can not be sure. I do not know first hand, without checking further, whether or not those other brands are as notorious with the add-ons as Mercedes is. So, I can't answer definitively whether or not their inclusion would be appropriate.

    I do know that the GL is close enough for me, considering the way the MSRP plus add-ons will so easily put it in the $60's and $70's, and that it represents the top-tiered SUV.

    That's my opinion on this. Try others and see what they think. Either way, unless the host says it is forbidden, I will like to continue to discuss it from time to time, as we have been doing all along without any problems.

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    the fabulous BMW 550 which starts stripped at $58,500 and can be had for a much more likely $70,000 "real-life" MSRP. The only reason it doesn't qualify here is because the BMW 7 is "higher-end." Makes me almost ashamed to drive "my" 545! :cry:
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Is anyone else here somewhat disappointed in Nicholas Cage being cast as "Ghost Rider"? He ruined "Gone in 60 Seconds".

    Was kinda hoping this would be Artie Lange's next vehicle....

    DrFill
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    And before you know it, the X6 will be at a dealer near you.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Perhaps global automotive news matters to some and not to others, but for those that are interested:

    Audi has recorded a triple success in the “auto motor und sport” readers’ poll: readers of the popular car magazine voted the A3, A6 and Audi Q7 into first place in their respective classes, crowning them with “Best Cars” titles for 2007. This continues Audi’s history of success in one of the most important readers’ polls in the automotive industry.

    This was the first time that the Audi Q7 has taken part in the poll, and despite fierce competition it was awarded the most votes. It represents a new standard in the SUV segment. The Audi brand’s first SUV stands out thanks to its outstanding on-road performance, good off-road characteristics, expressive design and the quality characteristic of Audi. And it is not just readers of auto motor und sport who hold these properties in high esteem; the Q7 has also enjoyed great success with customers.

    The winner in the executive class, the Audi A6, has been the market leader in its segment in Germany for two years now. The elegant and sporty A6 is available as both a saloon and an Avant. In 2006, Audi added the sporty S6 and the A6 allroad quattro to this successful model line.

    The Audi A3 was voted top of the compact class for the third time. Audi demonstrates with the A3 how it is possible to perfectly unite premium standards with compact dimensions in a smaller vehicle class. The A3 is available in three-door and Sportback versions, and also in the shape of the S3.


    Congratulations to Audi!

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    I'm not really interested in the X6.

    Disappointed with the X5. Won't settle for the M_X.

    The only HELC listed above that lights my fire is the A8.

    As far as BMW goes, I'm eagerly anticipating the arrival of the 2008 535i with inline 6 boosted by twin turbos to 300hp available this summer. Should be a lot of fun! But not as much fun as the junior version!

    And of course, there will be the BMW diesels.

    Very much looking forward to my next choice: BMW or Audi.

    Most likely will give back the 545. After all, who wants to buy a car from someone who only changed the oil after 14,000 miles? DUH!! :surprise:
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    Love it. Agrees with the Germans.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    That is a hard decision. What models will you be looking for? A6/5er, A4/3er, or A8/7er (or some other class)?

    If it were me...

    I would pick a 528i/535i over an A6 3.2, but would buy an A6 4.2 S-Line over a 550i.

    I would choose the A4 2.0T S-Line over the 328i, but 335i over the A4 3.2.

    A8 is better than the 7 Series in all variants.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    Wait, I take that back.

    I'd take an A6 3.2 over a 528i, just not the 535i.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Very much looking forward to my next choice: BMW or Audi.

    I think I'm clear about your next vehicle. Those new diesels might show up in time for consideration. And since BMW announced that their sweet 300 hp twin-turbo will be available in the 5-series, there's some more temptation for you. One thing for sure, IMO... I'm betting it's going to be a BMW again.

    Most likely will give back the 545. After all, who wants to buy a car from someone who only changed the oil after 14,000 miles?

    Yeah, you are so careless and negligent with your 545... Good thing you are leasing... It's obvious that everything in that car will fall apart, and you'll have no choice but to give it up. ;)

    I'd even bet the floor boards and back seats are just a mess... littered with old used up Starbucks coffee cups!

    TagMan
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    If I go the HELC route, it's the A8. No contest.

    If I stay with BMW, I bypass the 7, since I get better performance and just about the same "luxury" in the 545.

    I would be interested in the new twin turbo 535 and any BMW diesels that come to market in the USA within the next 18 months.

    I am not considering any other vehicles.

    My 545 lease ends August 1, 2008.
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "Just a mess."

    Nah! It's only my wife and myself in the vehicle. Although she does like to eat in the car. Crumbs on her seat and floor.

    My wife is a multi-tasker: she can eat and harass me at the same time! :)

    I never eat and drink in the car. Thus, I couldn't care less about BMW's ridiculous cup holders.

    I am always amused at folks who concentrate so much on the BMW cup holders. Aren't they missing the point? :confuse:
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Yes, the S550 interior has its merits--curves. I find it tolerable, not desirable. Some of the shapes push my negative buttons. My boss has one. We were talking about it recently. Of course I was gushing with compliments.

    I also like the Range Rover and its rectangular matrix arrangement of the controls plus the angular posture of the dash with its forward rake. It's pragmatic. Everything works together without one single element trying to upstage the other.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    You see, this puzzles me. I find the CL centerstack to be one of the most obnoxious elements an interior has ever seen. It is as welcoming as a refrigerator in a living room. Looks like a harcover bowling bag and THOSE LOUVERS REALLY SHOUT, bold and overpowering to the point where any material and build quality are rendered meaningless IMO.

    Merc, I need an answer from you on this one, sir. Help me come to terms with it. ;-)
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    But there were only 11 of those Hemi Cudas ever made, and not all of those are in existance anymore.

    Was it 11? For some reason I thought it was 8. I don't know, I just think Veyron is at a point with it's specs that will not be exceeded. It's gotta end somewhere. Will be interesting to watch. I find those auctions entertaining even though garage queens are not my thing.
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    Well well, we've agreed on several things recently. ;-) I never cared for Cage as an actor.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    I like it, I think it looks classy and ultra-modern. In comparison, the Continental GT's center stack doesn't look much different from the Phaeton's, and some of its buttons are so bad even Lexus wouldn't use them. It looks bargain basement compared to the CL.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    the Continental GT's center stack doesn't look much different from the Phaeton's, and some of its buttons are so bad even Lexus wouldn't use them. It looks bargain basement compared to the CL.

    Really? I kind of like the look. When I sat in one recently, I never once got a bargain basement impression. It was all black with a dark wood, and it looked very elegant and upscale... traditional and classic in appearance as compared to, say, ultra-modern or contemporary. I saw nothing cheap about the quality of the knobs and switches, either, just that more traditional style, that's all... appropriate, IMO, for a car like this.

    Here's two interior pics of the Bentley Continental GT... neither one is like the one I saw, which I liked better than these, but these do give the overall idea:

    image

    image

    By contrast, look at the sleek, contemporary look of the CL... very nice and appropriate for such a sleek coupe.

    image

    IMO, both interiors fit their respective cars. Would love to own either one, which ain't gonna happen.

    TagMan
  • designmandesignman Member Posts: 2,129
    ...the Continental GT's center stack doesn't look much different from the Phaeton's...

    Hmm, that's just not accurate.

    ...and some of its buttons are so bad even Lexus wouldn't use them. It looks bargain basement compared to the CL.

    Well I think you're focusing on materials again. I'm considering the form and only the form. I have no problem criticizing material quality but it's kind of like criticizing a sand sculpture because it wasn't made out of marble. To me, most of the the art is in the sculpture.

    One more analogy for the CL centerstack... it has the bearing of a window air conditioner. At least the latter has pure functional value. I struggle to find aesthetic value in vents, yet they chose to make them the focal point, framing that small analog clock in a most curious, unbalanced manner.
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    Was it 11? For some reason I thought it was 8. I don't know, I just think Veyron is at a point with it's specs that will not be exceeded. It's gotta end somewhere. Will be interesting to watch. I find those auctions entertaining even though garage queens are not my thing.

    There may only be 8 left now.

    Saleen is near completing an S7R that supposedly is going to trounce the Veyron's numbers. But Bugatti is working on a 272MPH Veyron. Fifteen years from now, someone will have released a 300MPH street car! :surprise: That's Top Fuel dragster territory, albeit not nearly attaining that speed as quickly! :blush:

    I'm with ya on the garage queens, though. I have much more respect for the guys that DRIVE their classics. Jay Leno is my hero! :)
  • tayl0rdtayl0rd Member Posts: 1,926
    ... I never cared for Cage as an actor.

    Raising Arizona was one of his best works. A hilarious movie, IMO. :D
  • houdini1houdini1 Member Posts: 8,327
    Yes, the vents seem entirely out of place and they completely overwhelm the rest of the dash. Maybe if they were't so bright? I like the GT.

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • anthonypanthonyp Member Posts: 1,860
    Saw one today, unfortunately parked next to my car, with the top down--It was white with ,I think, light maple, and a cream interior....Words just can`t describe how good looking it is....Truly I wouldn`t want one as I`m just not there as I would be worried about a dent, but I sure think it is an elegant car....Tony
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Yeah, Tony, you are right... the Bentley and its interior are really gorgeous in person. Pics don't do it justice.

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    On the pic of the CL that I posted, please notice the buttons below those obvious center vents. Those buttons are more pronounced and 3-dimensional in person and balance out the center vents somewhat. I agree, however that the vents are a bit too much of a focal point, but in person there is so much else going on, they become less significant.

    Overall, IMO, the vents are not a deal killer and the interior is still sleek and contemporary... and, fortunately, the interior goes with a truly beautiful car!

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Coming off its thirteenth year
    of consecutive sales increases, Mercedes-Benz USA (MBUSA) today reported
    sales of 17,069 new vehicles for January 2007, up 36.9 percent from last
    January making this the best January sales in the company's history.
    In 2006, Mercedes-Benz significantly enhanced its competitive presence
    in the luxury light truck market with the launch of the full-sized luxury
    SUV: the GL-Class, which sold 1,815 units in January. The popularity of the
    M-Class model line continued to build with a 19.8 percent increase compared
    to last January (2,351 vs. 1,962). As a group, sales for Mercedes-Benz
    vehicles in the luxury light truck segment continue to gain momentum with
    an 82.8 percent increase over January 2006.
    Other highlights for MBUSA sales in January include a 24 percent
    increase in its portfolio of passenger cars (12,058 vs. 9,728). Volume for
    the month was led by the C-Class with 3,928 units sold, a 26.8 percent
    increase over last January's 3,098 units. Sales for the E-Class family of
    sedans and wagons, including those with the new clean diesel technology
    called BlueTec, grew by 36.9 percent
    with 3,375 models sold.
    As a group, model lines at the high-end of the Mercedes-Benz portfolio
    -- S-, SL-, and CL-Classes -- rose 78.1 percent (2,705 vs. 1,519 units) in
    January. Contributing to this was the popularity of the top-of-the-line CL
    coupe which was introduced in December (up 279.4 percent) and the continued
    demand for the ninth generation S-Class (up 125.1 percent)
    .


    Here's the actual press release which has further info and model beakdowns:

    link title

    Congratulations to Mercedes Benz!!

    So, where is the "doom" for Mercedes that we heard some speak of? ;)

    TagMan
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Interesting.

    link title

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    But this is much more interesting:

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=119408?tid=edmund- - - - - s.il.home.photopanel..1.*

    Sounded like someone was mighty impressed. ;)

    They all but said "This car is bad-[non-permissible content removed]!". I think I know where to file my C&D subscription. :blush:

    DrFill
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Raising Arizona was one of his best works. A hilarious movie, IMO.

    That was like 15 years ago. Is this guy the new John Travolta?

    DrFill
  • blkhemiblkhemi Member Posts: 1,717
    And this underwhelming post of Edmunds giving the uninspiring LS yet another chance is supposed to be superior to Tag's post?

    I think Louie buying a car company is of more interest.
  • esfesf Member Posts: 1,020
    Oh, I think the CL interior is sumptuous. I don't really remember what louvers you're speaking of, however.

    What do you think of the LS460 interior? I think it's a mess of buttons and plastic. Lexus should've done more to differentiate its interior from lesser sedans. Get a navi in an IS and you just have a minimized version.

    On the other hand, A8, S-Class and 7 Series all look much better than their less-expensive cousins on the inside.

    '06 Audi A3 2.0T DSG • '05 Audi S4 Cabriolet • '04 Lexus RX330
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Why is a reasonably decent write-up on a Lexus LS such a huge deal to you? I would think you would have expected a mostly positive review with the same old complaints about grabby brakes and a horrendous 136 ft stopping distance.

    What's the big deal?

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Tara Conner, 21, reigning Miss USA

    "I didn't think I had an issue -- but I was willing to do anything to save my job. ... I've realized that I suffer from the disease of alcoholism and addiction,"

    Now, She's itching to return to her Miss USA duties.

    Alcohol, though, was her biggest vice.

    "I'm an alcoholic.

    "Cocaine was one of the drugs that I did use," she says.

    Her mother, Brenda Johnson, tells the magazine that Conner once showed up to school drunk when she was 14.

    Oops! Those are not offical Miss USA "activies".

    Now, She's itching to return to her Miss USA duties.

    "I just can't wait to get back to work -- 'I'm Miss USA, my name is Tara Conner, and I'm happy to meet you,' you know? Life is good."

    "And in conclusion, all I can say is I'm Miss USA, and you're not! And I might've done anything so that Donald, I mean "Big Daddy", would let me keep my job...":P

    That last part might not be a direct quote....put that last one on my tab....

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    "The same old complaints." LOL!!
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Nothing of note was mentioned:

    Faster than the S550 and 750i.

    Beautifully damped ride motions.

    Feels sportier at higher speeds.

    Better slalom, SWB and LWB, than 750i.

    Suitably rich interior.

    Expect just as much performance as coddling.

    Might get better braking with Touring Pkg.

    Get the Parking Assist! Worth the $700.


    Same old stuff indeed! Sweet! ;)

    I love the taste of "Vindication Pie". Delicious! I'd offer you some, but....uh....no! You can't get none!

    I'd rather ramble, than stumble, my friend. :P

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    gladly give up most of that superficial fluff stuff in exchange for the priceless peace of mind in having excellent brakes, such as the extraordinary stopping power one finds in the BMW 7 and Audi A8, for example. :)
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    Yes. Objective issues matter.

    Quicker to 60 than the S550 is an objective and legitimate feather in the LS cap, if it is true by the final concensus of reviews. I would give you that without any spin.

    The rest is subjective material.

    The brakes, well they are objective material, and they ain't no good.

    TagMan
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    It should brake better.

    Solution: Make it as slow as the Mercedes, then you wouldn't need so much braking force.

    And bring the handling down to BMW-levels, while you're at it (just don't get the Touring Pkg. if you want to do either). ;)

    We wouldn't want it to do everything better. That would be overkill. :(

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    Nope. That would be a superb vehicle. :P
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    Rather than get into semantics, let's just accept Edmunds' criteria and try to not over-analyze it. The MSRP plus "real-life" typical add-ons is the point.

    $59k is allowed in for the simple reason that mfrs and retailers love those $99.99 price points. Base MSRP at $53k and $55k however are a far cry from $60k. What you consider "real-life typical add-ons" may not be either real-life or typical for others. That's why Edmunds made it explicitly clear that just because a car can be optioned up to over $60k, it does not belong to HELC if the base MSRP is substantially below $60k.

    GL's claim to top SUV offering is also iffy. It shares platform with M and R. MB's top offering used to be the "G Wagon" It's stopped for this year, so M/R/GL platform triplets is the only MB SUV here. If Lexus paused the LX for a year, are we to automaticly include GX in HELC? Likewise if LS/S/7 skipped a model year, should GS/E/5 come in?
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    Yes.

    That would be an LS460L with Touring Pkg.

    I agree with you. ;)

    DrFill
  • hpowdershpowders Member Posts: 4,330
    we should probably agree to disagree. Two immovable objects.

    And that's perfectly okay! Your point of view is needed here. I will always defend your right to say whatever it is you are attempting to say.

    Fair and balanced. :shades:
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    So, where is the "doom" for Mercedes that we heard some speak of?

    What per centage of that 17,069 "sales" booked in January were actual sales? How many of them will have to come back in 24-36 months on MB's dough? When a vendor embarks on a campaign of vendor financing, it will have to constantly increase sales volume. It's a treadmill that he can not afford to get off.
  • blckislandguyblckislandguy Member Posts: 1,150
    Brightness, I'm no fan of MB (actually, I like the cars but don't think much of the typical MB owner) but the data that Tagman presented are impressive. Moreover, I see as a huge plus not a negative that some of MB "sales" are actually leases wherein the customer has to come back in 24 to 36 months. Yes, there is as you say a treadmill. But for the driver, not the manufacturer. The manufacturer designed it this way and it benefits them. Now if the leases are hugely factory subsidized ( you didn't give us any proof) putting customers in leases isn't an unalloyed blessing but it is a good step to getting them back in the door in 24 months.

    Let's not forget that the goal of a successful business is to have repeat customers, not necessarily happy or even satisfied customers. Razors and razor blades, construction equipment and replacement parts, and the illegal drug business are all good examples of the benefits that accrue to the business when the customer is forced to return time and time again. Incidentally, the lack of repeat sales is in a nutshell is why airlines are broke and consumer electronics chains come and go.
  • tagmantagman Member Posts: 8,441
    It should brake better.

    Solution: Make it as slow as the Mercedes, then you wouldn't need so much braking force.


    C,mon Doc. You're throwing out sarcasm when you have no need. You've got yourself an overall decent review, with respectable 0-60 times, but pitiful braking. OK... it is what it is.

    Now, all of a sudden the Mercedes is slow?

    The solution is better brakes for the LS, it's that simple.

    TagMan
  • brightness04brightness04 Member Posts: 3,148
    I absolutely agree with you that creating repeating customer is a great way to success, assuming the cost of acquiring such customers is negligible. There is really no magic in convincing customers to lease instead of buying: the manufacturer has to offer better deals than what an honest bank in the business of making money is willing to offer. In other words, the "sale" becomes diluted by financial subsidies. A couple years ago, GM and Ford were experiencing dramatic sales increases when they offered enormous financial subsidies. Look at where they are now. IMHO, therein lies the danger with financial engineering goosing sales numbers in the short term. The consumer is not the only way stepping onto the treadmill when the mfr engages in financial engineering: in order to close the book 24-36 months from today, the price gap between actual auction value of returned vehicles and "residual" will have to be written down, and that affects the company bottom line. In order to absorb that hit, more "sales" will have to be written up at that time.
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