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Nissan was on the 'brink' and has come back storming!
What they gotta do though on their Infiniti cars is get rid of that fish-like, pucker mouth grill design! The M45 has the worst front view on any car I know.
Nissan is going for nice design work as of late, though, so probably they'll fix it in the end. All in all, Nissan is the brand that has gone through the most dramatic transformation. Great turnaround job at all levels.
In the luxury class, the M, Q, and QX combined do not register a blimp on the car sales chart. Duds, I call them. Here, as with Nissan, only two models are doing well - the G and the FX.
In the truck/SUV class, their two new entrants - Titan and Armada - are way too new to judge. Only time will tell if Nissan entered the ring too late, or came to the party loaded and ready to take on the challenge of the big boys from Ford, GM and Toyota. We'll see. The Pathfinder has pretty much disappeared. Sad to see a good car go.
Nissan/Infiniti has a long road ahead, while they have made some good strides, the market has told them they have a ways to go yet. They are a very distant competition in the lux class, barely registering on the richter scale of luxury sedans/trucks.
M
Altima 187K units YTD
Nissan has sold 2X as many units as VW: 727K vs 361K
The Z is outselling the Corvette 2 to 1 and has caught the dying Mitsu Eclipse which is down 45% YTD over 02.
Murano has sold 52K units, 2X the Mercedes ML.
The new Quest is up 16% YTD at 19.4K units, sells more than 2X Ford's new Freestar.
Seats is seats. They are doing ok.
I'm not surprised that affluent people that works with financial experts like ljflx are usually prudent with their finances. But believe me, there are many rich people who don't know or don't care to manage their finances and are excessive reckless spenders. One only has to look at some of those that inherit big fortunes or in which money comes easy like certain celebrities, and how excessive their spending habits are.
TAKE MAINTANCE UNDER WARRENTY.
If you can afford a $70,000 to $95,000 car you don't want the hassel of constant warrenty repairs...the money is less important then the inconvience. You expect a well made RELIABLE machine that wouldn't strand you somewhere even if the repair is free.
The resale stuff... then why is the MB's leasing cost $400+ higher than Lexus'? Depreciation figures highly into leasing costs, and yet... anyone making even very good money *will* care about spending an additional $400 a month, I guarantee that. It's just about the perceived value that $400 buys.
The price *is* an issue for many buyers, even with these cars. It is not the only issue, nor does it mean they couldn't wing the higher priced car if they really wanted to - they chose not to for a number of reasons, including price. Would more people chose the MB if the price were lower? Well, it isn't, and thus it's immaterial to speculate about it. The fact is Merc can afford to demand a premium, and it works for them.
Again, it's perceived value. Some people think the MB brand justifies the premium, some think it doesn't, and some simply don't want to pay the additional money - there are a lot of motivations out there, and to lump things into any generic statement does indeed miss the mark.
Permit me to jump in here.
I just returned from lunch with a colleague. Here is an example of someone who agreed with that premise. But here is the reality of her experience.
In Sept. my colleague's wife bought an '03 E320. That car has seen more of the inside of the repair shop than on the road. In 3 months, with only 1,000 miles, it spends most of its days in the shop. Here are the problems. Currently, it's now 17 days in the shop.
Electrical (what else is new !). The car won't start in the morning, bcos the smart key and the ecu can't agree that the owner want to drive the car off the carport/garage. After sometime waiting in the car, she puts in a second and third attempt, and the car still won't start, making some whirring noise under the hood. MB technicians come over, get the car started and towed to the shop. To duplicate the problem = 3 days. Once a solution is deviced, it takes another 3 days just to be able to test it on the car, bcos that's how long it takes to get the car started.
The wife has filed for lemon law protection, and waiting to hear on this. She is very disappointed and quite upset, really that MB will complicate an otherwise excellent car, with such electronic gadgetry that confuses instead of improving the driving experience of such a lux car. Oh, she paid a mere $55K OTD in Sept on the 2003 E320.
I guess we have people who aspire to buy these super-lux cars, only if they knew what they'd be buying. That free mainatainance on the warranty ! You'll need every day of it. I am glad I don't own one of these lemon MB's. Judging by the list of owners with similar problems, MB is in for a long hard time in the future.
I think all this talk of MB's demise is being overstated. It simply appears Mercedes is having some issues of late. Given their long history, I'm sure they'll be able to recover. A company like MB won't just cease to be a competitor. Cars like the SL500 indicate that they are still very capable of producing an unbeatable world class car.
I've said this many times: I see a trend in the luxury carmakers to cram their cars full of electronics. Is there really any purpose for parking radar and all these other useless gimmicks? Like anything, the more complicated the design, the more problems you are going to face.
I think Jaguar has done the best job of making sure the new age toys aren't too intrusive. I'd pit Lexus second, only b/c I have to switch on the Touchscreen to access my climate control settings. Being greeted with "The Lexus Link System is Active" every morning in my LS430 is driving me nuts. Maybe I'm too much of a purist, but I really think this electronics rage is going too far.
As for the MB vs Lexus debate. We've all argued to no end that Lexus builds a superb car. The only legitimate complaint that the MB camp may have is the insipid designs they've been turning out as of late. I was given a brand new ES330 for a loaner..Fantastic car inside, and drove beautifully. But the exterior design provokes nothing more than a Yawn. There is absolutely nothing engaging about it whatsoever. I'm anxious to see the what the 2006 LS looks like. If it's another S Class clone, I'll be terribly disappointed.
SV
IMHO: Mercedes problems are many and they are not 'just having some issues' nor does the 'all cars these days are full of electronics which are complicated' argument pass the common sense test given that Lexus can build the same advanced technology and integrate it.
Plus most of the 'advanced technolog' these days is coming from innovations in the supplier base not from the car companies. Manufacturers that work with their suppliers and still can't get technology to integrate and work properly in their cars are being poorly managed and have the wrong priorities. There are NO excuses.
Mercedes incidence of failure, defect levels and dissatisfied customers is the HIGHEST in the industry amongst luxury brands per JDP. It's a trend that has been underway for over a decade.
I think that the Mercedes business approach to putting brand management before customer satisfaction is self correcting.
We hear all these accolades about big powerful engines and how the auto rags love performance but in the end if cars this expensive don't function as close to perfection as possible than the experience is a disappointment and all that bragging for a tiny fraction of performance cars is irrelevant. This guy told me the last great car MB built was the old S-class. He's an engineer and fully appreciated the great things MB has done in the past, but in his words the game is electronics now and in that regard the Germans are way behind the Japanese. The problem is MB needs to stay number 1 and to do so they need to lead in an arena where they are trumped. I think the reliability problems will deepen and as they do the brand image will suffer more and more.
And the key point is that even people who *could* wing either purchase *do* decide to save themselves the additional money - because they don't see the added value, *and/or* because they like to keep $20k in their pocket and vacation for 2 weeks at the Grand Wailea on Maui.
Again, to claim people don't care whether they spend $60k or $75k is somewhat silly. It's perceived value, and the motivations are highly personal. Doesn't make one car "better" than the other, or one buyer dumber than the other.
Mattox -
as to luxury buyers don't wanting maintenance hassles, I don't know, Bentley or Rolls or Ferrari would have gone out of business eons ago if that was the case. Different people expect different things, and some people are very willing to put up with idiosynchrasies.
Finally, I doubt any experience that winds up calling for leman law is a "typical" Mercedes experience. Sure they have lemons, but it's *not* the typical scenario. That's an exaggeration that does not realistically reflect whatever quality issues MB might have had.
Also, my wife uncle's LX470 has been trouble ridden, too. In 6 months, it's been in the shop far more often and longer than my wife's '99 ML320 (which has been utterly problem free despite the M's reputation, never been in the shop for anything except maintenance). None of these experiences actually prove much - it's all highly circumstancial stuff.
1. price (most important to me because I can't pay cash for a car--at least not yet)
2. exterior styling (it has to catch my eyes because I'm the one who has to look at it everyday)
3. interior ergonomics (I have to sit in it everyday, so it must be comfortable, good to look at, easy to use, and great fit and finish)
4. reliability (if it's in the shop a lot, what's the use of paying so much money for one)
5. fun to drive (does it have enough horsepower, do I like the way it handles, is it quiet, does it shift smoothly, does it make my commute not feel like I'm in hell)
6. service (good service from the time of the sell, easy to make appointments to bring my car in for routine maintenances, good loaner cars, having my car ready and clean when they say it will be finished, and if it needs to be fixed, it will be fixed right the first time)
7. resale value (it doesn't take a hit if I want to sell it)
I did not put prestige because only what I think is good about the car matters, not what others think. Too many people buy things to show off--that's a shame, because if you ever are down on your luck, will those people ever look at you the same? I also think that if a car is beautiful to you, then that's all that matters, because looks are subjective.
Happy Holidays! And as always, drive safely out there.
As a Lexus owner myself, I certainly can understand your point of view. Lexus has done a great job of integrating all these new electronic toys into their cars. My complaint was more along the lines of "These electronic toys are getting too intrusive" I keep my old 92 LS just to get away from all of it. Some advances such as the Nav system are welcome, but I never really had much use for the parking radar and laser guided cruise control. Maybe it's just me, but I feel all this electronic gadgetry distracts from the driving experience.
I still think reports of MB's demise are far too premature. MB has its' problems no doubt. But you can't discount their 100+ yr history. If anyone is capable of turning things around it's MB. I recognize the surveys you've presented, and agree that they're in a rut. Give them a few years and I'm sure they'll work something out. Lexus needs to take full advantage of MB's downturn and release more performance orientated cars to steal some more market share. The new concepts posted on this forum are very exciting and I hope Lexus will put them into production.
I hope do you realize that Merc will launch into one of his long diatribes over your posting. LOL.
SV
Some people will try to save money, others will want to get the more expensive brand for status & bragging rights.
I never said nor imply it makes no difference between spending $60K and $75k, again putting words in my mouth. What I'm saying is you are not really spending the extra $15K if you can resell the more expensive car for $15K more after ownership period. Even if you can resell it for only $10K more, you factor in the free scheduled maintainence that MB (& BMW)offers, the real price difference becomes very minimal, not nearly as important as you and some others are trying to imply. We all know that Mercedes is the brand name with the top resale value in the US all along until the recent article ljflx mentioned that suggest MB's future projected resale values will fall out of the top 5 ? Thus suggesting price alone is an important factor that Mercedes shouldn't be selling more makes no sense to me.Price is only one of many factors that has an impact on sales. MB , Lexus & others do compete in selling at least 90 % of their cars at an overlapping price range.
Discussing here in the past couple days reminds me of why I've been reading this board for a year, & have resisted joining until recently. Not necessarily directing against you, but I've seen so many confused poster with flawed logic & reasoning, misquoting others, bickering & spreading misinformation, deliberately or not. My last post on this topic, I'm outta here.
We have seen a 110+-yr-old Barron's Bank go under in just 1-DAY !!! A crooked employee *playing* with derivatives and stuff. Billions of dollars worth of a bank down the tubes .... No one thought it was possible, but it did happen. Poof !
These cars production numbers are in the 100s per year...they are not germain to this discussion...
As to the LX470 (Your wife's uncles car) I have a hard time believing you for several reasons.
1) Knowing how you feel about cars and this debate I would think you would have mention these problems before now.
2) You didn't mention what the specific problem is.
3) Knowing something about Lexus service I believe they would have replaced the car by now if what you say is true.
I have no specific insight into the LX470 issues other than the complaints of my wife's uncle, because I don't give a hoot and have no interest in what the issues are. I never have felt like making conversation out of something that seems to upset the other person, and since the LX470 is not a car I'd get, I have little interest in researching it. I know it's nothing that impedes the car from driving, and that's about it. Whether you believe it or not I don't care, but your insinuation that I'd resort to lying in this thread means I won't read or reply to stuff you write henceforth.
Leasing has many factors - not just residuals. In 2001 Japanese interest rates were 3-4% lower than European rates. Toyota (and any Jaoanese brand) could haver undercut the whole market but they didn't.
The days of MB holding the high residuals it did in the past are long over. Twenty years ago MB made the best buillt and safest cars that had the highest reliability ratings. But now there is too much competition and they couldn't hold up those qualities, They are still living off that past reputation but it is less and less an influence each year. This doesn't mean they don't build excellent cars. It just means the field has caught up to them and in some cases has surpassed them. Long-term car residuals are held up by high quality reliable cars not by brand names.
Leases on S430's from MBCC have 54% residuals for three years and a money factor of .00225 ( about 5.4% ).
The MB depreciates faster and MBCC factors in more risk with their leases and has to ask for higher interest rates from its customers.
Heavens, it's merely a luxury VAN... I expected a bit more attitude of the GST.
I'll also freely admit to feeling downright antipathy for the MB brand until my wife wanted the ML badly in the post-Jurassic Park marketing craze, when the ML became *the* car to have for a while. Despite my expectations, the car has proven to be a total darling, which comes to show how much you can trust brand perception stuff.
That is why I don't believe at all in going by reputation that others repeat at nauseam when it comes to car purchases: as a rule, when I have done that, I have been underwhelmed. Bad luck. And the cars I had the lowest reliability expectations for -the XJS convertible and the ML- proved to be utter darlings that didn't have one single issue other than going in for maintenance intervals.
Oh, just to ridicule your doubts about the authenticity of my claim, I offer this forum to post a picture of my wife uncle's LX470 and his wife's Jaguar XKR, parked side by side in their house, by the end of the day tomorrow on my web site. In turn, you'll have to shut the hell up. I find it pathetic of you that, when one single message doesn't agree with your small-minded view of the car universe, you have to resort to accuse someone of lying.
While your Uncle is in town I would be interested to know what has kept his Lexus in the shop for most of 6 months. Glad to see it is back on the road.
I don't know what the '.035 spread' you refer to means.
Here's my math on a hypothetical example.
The residual % is applied to the MSRP in most leases.
In the case of a 65K Lexus LS430 (well equipped but not maxed) that 56% would be $36.4K. Depreciation would be $28.6.
A comparable S430 would be MSRP'd around $78K (I think)
So it would have a residual of $42,120 and depreciation of $35,880.
Independent of money factors, depreciation on the Benz would be $208 / month higher over 36 months.
If you do the math on the money factors and assume cap cost at MSRP deals for both cars ( not likely, particularly in the case of the Lex ), the net lease difference favors the Lex by $316 / month pre tax - about $11.3K lower than the Benz.
pablo_l,
You do realize that Lexus cars never, ever have any type of problems and to suggest such is ridiculous.
gscoupe,
I'm not sure where or who you got that from, about price being the ONLY factor, I stated that it is one of many, probably a leading one, not the only one. I see no one here suggesting that it is.
M
I do think BMW has to make a move soon. It seems logical that they do something with GM but GM also has a deep relationshio with Toyota. We'll see.
Hey - we've been at this another year. I enjoy it despite our difference of opinions. Have a great (and safe) holiday.
I think being a slave to growth is a disease. Some companies cna be managed to be extremely healthy without much growth.
But having my own business with two other partners - which I am spending more and more time with - I know exactly what you mean. I don't have to make our financials public and we have a well positioned business with a great niche and excellent profits. If they decline 5-10% I don't have to explain it to anyone and we are still very healthy. But Im also playing under the radar screen of the big guys in our industry. I don't think BMW is anymore whereas Porsche and others still are.
My problem Daimler-Benz is that they picked one of the weakest companies around to merge with or takeover (let the court decide which). Daimler-Benz was in great shape before 1998. I still want to believe they could have made it with Smart and maybe one other brand to spread costs out over, not needing the entire Chrysler group of troubled brands. I just don't see this merger working. It's going to kill Mercedes-Benz the day they attempt to sell a co-engineered platform under a Mercedes-Benz product.
Now BMW and Porsche are the just about the last two remaining "independent" smaller car companies on earth, along with Honda. I'm wondering how BMW stays in such great shape yet their "business model" is very similar to Mercedes'. Porsche saved themselves for a while longer with the Cayenne. I don't see BMW ever doing anything with GM, it will surely be the passing of BMW if that ever happens. GM is about the most clueless company around when it comes to managing their foreign brands. They're already using Chevys and Subarus for future Saab products. Better to let BMW die before something like that happens, and Saab too for that matter. Yes I believe in protecting brand uniqueness just that strongly. I see Porsche being bought up by DCX, but under the control of their across-the-street neighbor, Mercedes-Benz, now that would be some union. I want Chrysler to be spun off before its too late. Something tells me that this will happen if the next big round of new Chrysler doesn't change things. Mercedes-Benz can't continue to support all of DCX.
Audi's model is so similar to the Japanese one so they're probably in the best postion. The have all of VW, which sells millions of cars, to spread costs around. Not to mention Skoda, Bentley, Seat, and Lamborghini.
Jaguar will never be a threat to MB or BMW overall because Jaguar was never designed to be a volume brand, and Ford surely isn't going to spend the money to do that. Plus I seriously doubt people will ever buy Jaguars on the scale they do MB and BMWs, their style is not for everyone. Though they are gorgeous cars to me.
"Hey - we've been at this another year. I enjoy it despite our difference of opinions. Have a great (and safe) holiday. "
I know! Isn't it wonderful!!! You buy that SL500 and I promise I'll take a look at the next IS300 when it comes out....lol. As always I enjoy every minute of our conversations on this board, it's been about 4 years now, I think. Happy Holidays to you also.
M
You can get a fully loaded 04 Lexus LS430 with all that S500 equipment and More for $70,000 a $20,000 savings (would buy a nice diamond)
You'll have more Luxury, the quietest car on the planet, A tremendous sound system, self closing doors as well as trunk, a much better Nav. system
and lots of other goodies.
Not only that but you will get the most dependable car made, a car you can count on.
Can anyone help her with her specific question?
Jamie, you might also post in our dedicated Mercedes-Benz S-Class discussion. Someone who might miss your message here may see it there.
Good luck!