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Comments
The Bently Continental GT is great looking as is the Jaguar XJ. I think the look of the Jaguar XJ is a timeless classic. I think Lexus should really look towards the Europeans for design cue
I do thing the Jag and even the 03 Mercedes S are better looking, more striking in their design, more noticable...
But I don't want to draw attention to my car...I like the fact that it blends in. It is beautiful were it counts...Inside where I am.
But thats me, I know others feel differently.
I think you've made a great point. I, too find the Lexus designs rather insipid. The problem is that they lack that "timeless" feature you spoke of. Once the new designs come out, the old designs look very dated. With the exception of the First Gen LS and SC, I don't think Lexus designs age terribly well. I think Merc raised this same point about the current SC a few posts back.
When you pay $60K+ for a car, you should at least be able to buy something that looks nice. I think the current S class is a great example of this. I'm sure 10 yrs from now, it'll still look good, much like the W126 still does. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I suppose, but if there is one complaint I have about Lexus, it's the styling.
SV
The logic behind having a V8 and V12 in the future S-Class is the same as it is now, ditto for the SL and CL. The V12 is for the luxury-biased buyer. The AMG "55" cars are far sportier and much more vocal. I know you have no interest in this, but you should test drive the SL600 and SL55 or S600 and S55 back to back and you'll see what I mean.
Well you know I don't get into the what if stuff, when the S-Class is shown I'll have an opinion on it. Some of the sites I read have even more photos ranging from mini-Maybachs to giant CLS's as the next S-Class so I'll wait for that all-important initial and official photo from Mercedes-Benz.
jstyle,
Ditto for the ML, see above (last paragraph). With that said, I'm more interested in the quality improvements to the next ML. Quality is by far the most important thing with the 2006 ML, not styling. I really don't get too worked up about SUVs anyway even ones by Mercedes. Long as its a true Mercedes in build I'm not really concerned with how their SUVs look, though I think the R-Class is the better looker of the two, from what I've seen so far.
designman,
Well you never know they may be working overtime right now to make sure the next 3 doesn't come out looking/designed like the 5 and 7. I don't think BMW will gamble that heavily on their most important car.
M
These concerns are really interesting because in Europe Mercedes in particular sells everything from buses to trucks to A160s to SLRs and the brand ranks as one of the most honored on the market, only second to what I call Tier 1 brands like Ferrari, Bentley etc.
M
The Smart brand is going to be to Mercedes what Mini and Scion are to BMW and Toyota...roughly.
M
M
M
I will have to argue with you on the Lexus\Toyota thing. The LS430 is a bit more than an overpriced Toyota Avalon. Same goes for the SC430 and Solara drop top. Those differences should only escalate as Lexus becomes a world market brand. If you dont need what the ES330 offers over a Camry XLE, dont buy one. No one has a gun to your head.
I think that we all would agree that this whole car thing is not really about efficient transportation. If it were we could all be driving Honda Accords. For some of us it comes down to an emotional connection with our autos. And as all of us are different, we will each connect with different aspects of different cars.
One of the most telling stats in Consumers Reports has to do with "satisfaction" as in "would you buy that car again?". It's very interesting that many people with cars far below average in terms of reliability are still very enthusiastic about them and would buy again. To me this shows that reliability is only one part of the total. My wife's X5 which is one year old, had an electrical malfunction and left her stranded. She had one frustrating afternoon waiting to get it towed. However she still says that she loves her car and it is the best she's ever driven. She has completely "forgiven" it and finds that the enjoyment she gets from driving it far outweighs the negatives of this incident.
Whatever the Germans want to think about what cars are what size over there, doesn't define markets here.
For example, the C-class may be 'mid size' in Europe, but since it's SHORTER THAN A TOYOTA COROLLA (!) it's definitely a small car here in the U.S.
So the ES isn't positioned against the C. Both the ES and E are mid-sized cars here in the U.S.
Facts:
ES330 has more horsepower and torque than the E320. (ES330 also has more hp and torque than the GS300.)
ES330 1.5" longer than the Eclass. Their width's are the same and the ES is .1" taller.
ES330 more front head, shoulder and hip room than the E.
Both have similar performance numbers like 7 sec 0-60's (E500 is 5.x).
Virtually identical capacities, features and functions.
"Handling" or "feel" is different. The Lex is super smooth, ultra quiet and conveys and delivers constant confidence that it can do the job of getting you from point A to point B flawlessly. The MB is more "engaging" both in the drive and the "ownership" experience.
So what's the difference? Price. E320 is 20K higher than ES, while E500 costs twice as much. That be long green for the same set of features and a more muscular engine.
Of course, both E's can be ordered 'more customized' than the ES and that has an intangible value to some buyers.
One thing the E has that the ES doesn't is the ventilated seat. IMHO it matches what happens to your wallet when you buy one ;=)
If you disregard the fact it's a FWD Camry I agree. The E is RWD luxury platform built in the tradition of Mercedes, while the ES is a torted up Camry (Now I like the ES family had one). The differences in the cars are extremely apparent and there is no mistaking the E will never sell for $32K because it's worth much more, and no one will buy the ES at $52K, because it's overpriced at that price point. Rear seat leg room is not the defining characteristic of either car. It's sort of amusing the comparison between between the E and ES. Ironic, that people bash the Germans over price, when Lexus gets people to part with with money to the tune of 7K to 10K over a Camry, they did a great job however.
Since you seem pretty knowledgeable I thought I might use your expertise. I am currently shopping for a Lux auto and have narrowed my decision to 2 cars: The Lexus LS 430 and the MB 430 4 Matic.
Pluses for Lexus- Great riding car, super smooth, very quick, great interior and love the toys- back up camera, blue tooth, ML sound is the best, great Nav
Pluses for MB- Exterior style, prestige, safety, all wheel drive, more involving driving experience.
I know that MB as a total brand has taken a hit in reliability but do you know if the S Class performs better in that area?
The prices are surprisingly close with the MB being discounted aggressively and dealers getting 3K back from the factory. I estimate that the spread is about 200 per month on lease. With MB including maintainance that narrows the gap a bit. But both are within my budget.
Any input would be helpful.
Thank you.
Did the all wheel drive enter into it for you at all? I live in the NE and wondered how such a heavy and torque rich car would handle ice and snow.
I am glad you are happy with your purchase and you should have no regrets since you drive a wonderful automobile. I am just trying to decide if the Lexus connects emotionally with me the way the MB would.
That said, I'm quite sure that I would be happy in either, I mean who wouldn't. This is a nice "problem" to have to decide and I for one try not to pretend that it's anything serious when you look at the real issues in the world.
I live in NE too so a word of warning...It depends on what sort of tires they put on that 4 Matic. If they're Z rated or some sort of high speed tires, it isn't going to do you much good. Remember the tires are the only part of the car that makes contact with the road.
I find this whole AWD debate overblown. I wouldn't simply buy the car b/c of that feature when a $1200 set of wheels and tires will make the LS superior in any winter situation.
A set of good snow tires/rims will make the car perfect in bad weather.
No all season tire/performance tire can come close to matching the Bridgestone Blizzaks in snow/ice. I've driven my '92 LS in several inches of snow up steep hills without a problem. This car lacks the "advanced" automatic stability controls the manufacturers hype to no end. In 1981, I used to drive a Mercury Zephr in Buffalo with only two snows in the rear..Never got stranded..My new LS430 has all those fancy toys and performs Worse than the '92 LS.
As for the MB vs Lexus..
I've been there, having owned an S Class in 1987. I'll concede the prestige argument right away. Lexus can't compete with the 100+ yr history of Mercedes. Also, the handling is probably superior than a typical LS..I haven't driven a 18" Euro, but own a 17" Euro..It's pretty good, in fact stiff for my tastes.
However, I wouldn't give them the edge on safety. The LS has performed well in every crash test. I can personally vouch for the safety of the car having walked away from a 35MPH side impact (Left Front)..The car had $7500 worth of damage, but hardly moved at the point of impact. I'm not knocking Mercedes, but I'm saying the LS is probably equal in that regard.
The LS is the most reliable car you can buy period. This MB cannot compete with. Have a look on the S Class board to see the issues people are having with their cars.
I've had practically every Luxury nameplate, and the LS has been the best yet. (I've owned a 92, 98, and 02)I'm sure you've heard the CR reports of a 6 yr old LS being more reliable than a new BMW..The car does live up to the hype..
If we were all computer brained, I think everyone would drive a LS430..But there is an emotional component to it all. In every objective aspect, the LS series is likely to provide you with a better ownership experience. However, if you crave that prestige and handling, I'd go for the S Class..But be ready to pay up once the warranty is over.
SV
The ES and the Camry share platform design and engineering for the simple reason that the cars are similar in size. What should Toyota do, go do a totally different design point for each and every car they build? Go check the bottom line of the two companies and you'll figure out which is doing this the right way.
To say that MB is based on a rear wheel drive 'luxury' platform is just fuzz. What the heck does that mean. If its crappy reliability that makes it a 'luxury' platform? If the ES rides so much smoother, just what is it about a MB 'platform' that makes it so luxurious, yet so prone to problems? It ain't new technology.
These two cars address the same market and one of them is 20K too expensive. Think about for a second before you respond. They are almost identical in every dimension. The performance is virtually the same. The MB weighs about 150 lbs more out of 3500 lbs. - about 4%. Is that the magic of 100 years of heritage or is it the weight of the drivetrain and fatter tires?
The differences are in ride, reliability and customer service. Oh, yes and price you pay.
There might have been a time when buying an E was a good decision, but buying an E today is like wearing a sign that says "I paid more for less".
Didn't know if dynamic ally it would be different with a heavier car like LS. As for the S 4 Matic, they all come with all seasons.
Funny, I just got back from a jog and asked a neighbor how he liked his S430 4matic and he said it was great, never a problem. The service manager at MB was quite frank with me and told me that in the great majority there are no issues but in the ones that are problematic they are Really problematic. They just exchange for new cars after 4 or 5 attempts to fix.
I'll respectfully disagree with this. Call Lexus service head and heels over the rest. Call the LS the most reliable car n the world. Call it a better buy than the Mercedes S. But NEVER call the LS superior to any car with AWD in the snow. It just isn't so. Furthermore, the less torque a car has, the better it is in the snow. The physics change completely here. The cheapest of cars with AWD will be superior to any expensive car without AWD in the snow. And if you think this isn't true take any FWD OR RWD car up a steep snowy, ice blanketed hill from a stop. They'll either struggle or go nowhere. Yes, snow tires mitigate the effects, but it still isn't the same. Cars with AWD are like tanks. The difference is amazing.
Talking about snow at this time of the year is bringing my head down, but I guess we have to do it!
;-)
It's a mid-size luxury car, just like the Lexus ES 330, except it cost 20K more and is lower quality and less reliable.
Handling-wise, there are two different design points.
If you really want to stiffen up the Lex a bit you can spend $620 for AVS (Adaptive Variable Suspension). Then you get more MB style 'feel' and still save $19.3K. Plus when you want to be really smooth, you crank it down to comfort.
What would make the Mercedes safer then the Lexus...When the Mercedes is broken down in a bad part of town...How safe is it?...If a car ever leaves me or worse my wife or daughter stranded...I never trust it again and get another one as soon as possible.
Everybody is different but for me involvement has no apparent bonus..Even as a 16 yr. old I was the only guy in my neighborhood who actually wanted an automatic instead of a stick.
I like the outside to be shut out as much as possible...I don't want to feel the bumps in the road...I don't want my engine to drown out the sound of the Mark Levinson. CALL ME CRAZY.
I was trying to emphasize the importance of tires in my post. Perhaps I may be wrong, but wouldn't a RWD with all snow tires do as well as an AWD car with high performance Z rated tires? (Correct me if I'm wrong) I've seen plenty of AWD owners with BMW's that still have to change their tires in the winter.
I stand by my comment about AWD/RWD in the essence that I wouldn't disqualify a car just on that basis. I've owned enough RWD drive cars and never had an issue with them in either Buffalo or Boston winters.
As for the S Class, I hardly think it will strand anyone on the road. It's not THAT bad..Expect some problems with the electronics and gimmicks. I sincerely doubt you'll have any trouble with the powertrain. The Germans still are leaders in mechanical components IMHO. The question you have to ask yourself is whether it's worth the extra $$$ and the potential for service visits. If you're planning on keeping the car for only the warranty period (You could extend it with the Starmark warranty) I go for the S Class. But if you're planning on long term ownership I might think twice. Just my two cents...Good luck!
SV
I've used Michelin's winter tires on last two RWD's and had zero issues, even when another guy at work had an Audi Quattro that struggled to negotiate same stretch of road I had just done.
That said, electronic malfunctions can leave you stranded. I had one in my ML and my wife just had an incident in her X5 BMW where the transmission could not sense that the car was in park even when it was and thereby would not let the engine start. Car was towed. (She still loves it!)
As a side note, it's curious to me that MB has attained such an elite status in the US while in Europe they are a dime a dozen as taxis.
It's an interesting evolution and the status they have here is very factual. The amount of CL's and S Classes driven by the movers and shakers, ball players and entertainers. I think it's still the gold standard. (Disclaimer- nothing here is intended in any way to make less of the fantastic Lexus quality and product. It is a gem).
Oh and BTW, my wife loves her RX, now with 67K on it, because it has never stalled, failed to start, had any electrical problems, or done anything wrong in its life. It was also about $6 grand cheaper than an X5.
Disclaimer: I am an LS owner. Loved it. Never had an electronic or mechanical issue with it. Now with 88K miles of pleasure. My next car purchase in 2006 will be another LS. I am not into prestige or marqueness. I am into the basics of lux car ownership - quality (overall), reliability, safety, and service. All of which my LS satifies to a T. Add in the value over an S-class MB. That is why I'll be buying another LS regardless of how much better, satisfying, driver-oriented, safer, and more prestige the MB has compared to the Lexus. That's me tho'
Good luck in your purchase. Let us know which car you eventually go with. IMO, whatever car you buy, it will be a good choice, so no worries....
That used to be the case, before the mid-1990's. For example, many 3 liter inline 6 of the late 80's can last a long time; some of MB's reputation also had something to do with old diesel engines (a la the 3 liter inline 5 diesel), which always tended to last longer than gasoline engines. Since the mid-90's expansion however, Mercedes engines have really gone down hill. The 3.2 V6 for example is well known for oil seepage. Most of these "new generation" engines haven't been in service long enough to rack up 200k miles; nor do I think they will. Leaky engines just don't last long.
Also engine longevity has a lot to do with the type of miles and maintenance. My wife had a '91 Honda Accord that racked up 180k miles with no oil consumption; then one day, somehow she let the coolant level drop too low (she forgot to check for a few months ;-), and warped the engine head starting oil consumption at about a quart every 1000 miles, and we ditched the car a couple years back when the original manual clutch gave at 186k miles. Accords are reliable in the first 100k miles but not known for longevity, but apparently if you drive mostly highway miles and keep up with a modicum of maintenance, even the cheaply put together Accords can last a couple hundred thousand miles.
Yesterday on a lark I drove the 745i and found it very lacking in the luxury department. I loved my 330i but I think that BMW makes the "same" cars in 3 different sizes. For a sporty ride, nothing beats it.
As someone pointed out the long-lived MB engines were diesels, not gas. That connection is missed by many people and plays into MB's myth and to a certain extent, its prestige. But the fact that resale values have fallen so far and so fast (night and day from 2001 when I last cross-shopped) is an indicator that the falloff in prestige is not far off and is already happeming. One is the bolt of lightning and the other is the thunderclap. They are tied to each other. Can they remedy it? Don't think so. They'd have to build bullet-proof cars immediately. On top of that the hybrids will revolutionize this segment and they won't be leading it. Both they and BMW got so caught up in electronic gadgetry that they seem to have missed the obvious direction the market is evolving to. That being hybrids, great nav systems, great creature comforts, fabulous service, easy user friendly electronics and world-class stereos.
"Perhaps I may be wrong, but wouldn't a RWD with all snow tires do as well as an AWD car with high performance Z rated tires?"
That's like saying Britney Spears with no legs wouldn't look as good as Faith Hill with legs. Not exactly a fair comparison. Z-rated tires have no business being used in snow. They are virtually useless and are a liability.
aggie76
"I've had plenty of both and found that RWD with good snow tires, both in midwest winters and European winters do just fine in everything but heavy ice
I've used Michelin's winter tires on last two RWD's and had zero issues, even when another guy at work had an Audi Quattro that struggled to negotiate same stretch of road I had just done. "
It's obvious plenty of people do just fine with RWD cars and snow tires. But let's not forget, some people are daunted by snow and cut back on road time, picking and choosing their moments to go out, waiting for roads to be cleared. Skirting the problem is a good way around it. Me, I go out in everything but pure ice storms, a condition in which all vehicles are useless and dangerous. As a matter of fact, I like driving in the peak of a blizzard with AWD. Why? Because there's no one else out there! And because of this, it's the safest time to be on the road and the quickest way to get where you are going IMO.
And then there is the big element of skill in snow. If that guy with the Audi Quattro struggled compared to you with your LS, then sorry, he's just intimidated by snow, a horrible driver and is a risk to himself and others in snow. But put that Audi and your RWD car in the hands of the same driver and there will be no comparison. Yeah, I manage with RWD also, but given the choice between the two just in snow, you have to be plain ol' nuts not to choose AWD.
It is a very impressive machine. Drives similar to the BMW while the cabin is a bit more luxurious than the bimmer although conservative compared to Lexus.
It is very quick for it's size and gives a nice growl. It handles very well for a car that size but for me size takes it out of the equation. For now, only the long wheel base is available and believe me, it's long. I felt like a chauffeur driving it. The shorter wheel base is on the way for fall. I think the car to watch next may be the new A6. Supposedly, it will have many of the attributes of the A8 in a smaller package and a big 8 cylinder from the S8 to boot.
I won't consider because I'm a bit leery of first year models from Audi but it should be a winner.
By the way, interesting to note is that MB is dropping free maintanince in 05. (they only provided oil changes vs Audi an BMW who include all wear items except tires). Strange strategy for a brand suffering perceived reliability problems.
Perhaps they will offset with longer warranty or something.
These cars have computers running everything, Those computers need electrical imput.
As far as I am concerned it doesn't matter if a Mercedes or Lexus leaves me stranded...It is difficult for me to trust that car from then until I get rid of it....I had a Buick go out on me years ago on a long trip..It was a nightmare. My 10 yr. old Cadillac Allante blew a water pump and stranded me for just a few Hours and I got rid of it in 6 months...I loved that car.
Funny incident regarding a friend's S Class and electronics:
His wife's 03 S430 kept stalling when she went over speed bumps or the like. Brought it in 4-5 times and no problem could be found.
They switched him out to a brand new 04 version at no cost to him. Same thing occurs with it. They finally trace down the problem. His wife had so many keys dangling from the key ring (my buddy says that it weighed a ton) that occasionally the laser system on the "key" would disengage and the car would stall since to the car the key was no longer "in". Of course when she gave the car in for service she would remove all of her personal keys so they couldn't duplicate the problem. She lightened her key ring and that was the end of the problem.
You would think a high end manufacturer like Lexus would have electronics in the car to cut the lights after x time.
This is just as bad as any electrical glitch leaving one stranded.
designman - looking at Baldwin, Steinway and Yamaha. We haven't rued out Chickering. Final decision will be tied to how the finish fits in with our living room furniture. As long as it plays well, we will be satisfied and all of the above seem to play very well.