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Good point. And accordingly I don't think the 06 GS will steal many 5-series buyers. The E39 5-series was a winner and the E60 5-series rides even better. E60 and the 06 GS are both ugly as sin so they're on the same playing field where this is concerned. We'll see where this goes.
"The 'ultimate driving machine' niche they love to hype and people fall for is called marketing."
Let's not forget the "bone-jarring" BMW ride and what this means. Luxury buyers hate it, sport enthusiasts seek it. Many BMW drivers drive aggressively and this may be difficult for luxury drivers to comprehend. There are also BMW buyers who feel safer because of it. There is the cushy ride and the hard ride. A car can't be considered a performance car without the latter so if Lexus wants to enter this arena it must sacrifice the obvious. Let's see if Lexus can lure the sport-sedan buyer by offering a variable suspension with which to toggle between extremes and if this buyer is willing to forget other important factors such as weight, balance, steering ratio, braking, camber/castor, suspension stiffness all factors that affect sport dynamics. BMWs are very stable (aka safe) cars so their qualities are very consistent with the slogan "ultimate driving machine" a realm where the comfortable numb ride is out of character.
I'm not exactly sure what BMW marketing efforts entail but as far as advertising is concerned they seem to be one the lowest-profile advertisers around. I very rarely see TV or print ads and would venture to guess that their ad budgets are among the lowest. So a three-word slogan shouldn't qualify as hype, especially since it is merely a reflection of their biggest product benefit. Furthermore, reviews have supported this for the longest time. And now that the performance sedan is becoming a popular genre, living proof of who makes the "ultimate driving machine" can be found by looking at who everyone seems to be "going after " and what all sedans are measured against in manner of performance. It's BMW and the slogan doesn't say "ultimate luxury machine" so I think everyone knows where that's at. I have to believe that anyone who doesn't realize this either does not know or care about performance.
As far as BLENDING luxury with performance BMW has pretty much satisfied the performance lover. It remains to be seen whether the challengers can do the same. That new Cadillac ad showing an irreverent STS swaggering to the music of Zeppelin, busting up the civilized BMW/Mercedes minuet, proclaiming the party is over—now that's hype! I'm wondering, which music will the GS boogie to?
;-)
I find plenty of real conservative BMW drivers on the road. One guy really got on my nerves today in a 3 series and I had to shoot past him when a broken line finally showed up. Truth is I see plenty of aggressive drivers in Lexus and MB cars (I'm one of them though I am defensive) as well. The folks that drive me nuts are Corolla people, not all, but many.
Customers shopping for corollas drive me nuts. Over-intellectual, cheap, and no fun.
It's a lot more fun selling BMW's!
Have you taken an LS with the 18" option wheel and the sport suspension out for a spin yet ? You'll be pleasantly surprised at how much the outside fascia of the LS (boring, some would call it) is deceptive once you sit behind the wheels and turn the suspension to 'sport' on a car shodded with the 18" low profile tires. Make sure it's an '04 with the 6-speed, with manumatic shift.
When you do this, come back and tell us if Lexus does NOT offer handling and performance almost equal to that of an optioned trim BMW with the same sport-tuned suspension.
That's the problem. People judge Lexus based on the marketing of its cars as luxury first. Little do people realise that the last few releases have added more driveability and handling to your average atypical LS 430....
WRT the 06 GS vs E60 BMW, the jury is out. One thing is obvious: more people have have actually seen the real 06 GS have liked it. I haven't met anyone who likes the E60 BMW yet. Our new Bus-Dev SVP has one, but I hate it the more I see it daily in the parking lot.
Ljflx: I hear you. I am fairly aggressive as well, but drive very defensively. I am ideally suited to a car that on the outside is deceptive, but on the inside is a different animal.... That's why I laugh at Bimmer drivers that underestimate me in my old boring LS, until they see my rear-behind within seconds of take off from a stop light.
Now if you can objectively evaluate an '04 LS with 18" wheels and sport-tuned suspension, against your vaunted 745i, or 540i, then come back here and let us know your finding on such tests.
I suppose you don't need me to remind you of the Dec 2003 C&D test of BMW, MB, Jag, Audi, Phaeton and Lexus ??? And the ultimate winner ?? Right ???
Additionally, I've driven the LS and it's a great car, but not quite the "ultimate".
Ljflx aggressive but defensive? Tell it to the judge license please ;-)
Forget which mag it was but even though they reviewed the LS favorably, they knocked it on intrusive stability control. They said it kicks in too soon and is not good if you corner aggressively, getting automatic braking when you don’t want or need it.
The same ride and drive event had a 330 versus competitive sedans, the acura, infiniti and IS300. Also had the 4.4 X5, the Tourag and MB (no cayenne, that would have been fun).
I've been to ride and drives from several different manufacturers (toyota, chevrolet, volvo). BMW has the most neutral presentation and best professional drivers for sure (John Paul, Al Unser, among others). Sometimes it's just propaganda and talking points but the BMW events would be a blast for the average joe off the street.
Check to see if the event is running in a city near you. I also attended the Mercedes C-spot, the GM Autoshow in Motion and next month I will be attending the Love Mercedes event. So far, the Lexus event was the most impressive. These manufacturer events are in my opinion the greatest way to "test them all" and see which ones fit you best.
Can you add a little more information on your test drives ? How would you rank these cars in
- handling
- performance
- driveability
- luxury ride
- NVH
- comfortability
- overall "must-have-one" feeling !
Will appreciate your thoughts on these.
There are still a few cities left for the Lexus Taste of Luxury and the Love Mercedes Tour is just now underway.
https://www1.travelhq.com/registration/lexustasteofluxury/intro.h- tm
http://www.lovemercedestour.com/
http://autoshowinmotion.com/index.asp?flash=False&s=%7BF858D1- 2E%2D5F4F%2D4072%2DA4E4%2D576CE2D0041B%7D
Also, the Used Car blue tab at the top of the page will take you to reviews, specs, etc. of all the vehicles you find interesting.
Hope this helps... good luck!
Let us know what you do.
What's silly is just having rear wheel drive, when you could have a very smart AWD system that gave you rear wheel drive when you need or want it, awd drive when "only" rear wheel drive is dangerous.
The AWD system on the Infiniti G35 and the one being introduced on the new Acura RL make the RWD only vehicles look like candidate display material for the car museum.
In the world of drive systems, it's time to have your cake and eat it too, unless of course, you buy an old technology, RWD drive system like the one in the BMW.
So there!
Torque steer and poor transfer of power to the front wheels make the FWD set-up an inferior handler and therefore have lessened accident avoidability and by my thinking less fun. There is better weight distribution with rear wheel drive set-ups and the pushing force is easier controlled when steering than a pulling force. All wheel drive will reduce the RWD advantages in the same ways. A lux/sports sedan shouldn't be made out to be a 4 wheeler at the expense of driving, handling or performance. get a hummer!
Which part of what I stated is inaccurate? The part about front wheel drive evolving in an effort to decrease manufacturing costs, the part about torque steer, the part about weight balance, the part about pushing dynamics v. pulling dynamics when steering?
My contention is that AWD or FWD is not appropriate in a luxury/sports sedan. These vehicles are intended for driving on pavement, not the World Rallye competition.
However, the X3 may do well in such a competition as this BMW offering has beaten suburu AWD's in harsh cold weather competition with journalists driving against professional drivers (with a fully stock X3 equipped with automatic transmission).
Since BMW is designed only for snow free pavement and I assume warm dry weather. A guy in the midwest or east or mountain states it would seem, according to you, would be a fool to buy one.
FWD is better on snow and slick roads then RWD..(I believe I saw a figure once that said 60% better) AWD is better then FWD on snow and slick roads. (I the figure I remember was 40% better)
NOTE: The figures above are from something I saw years ago and may not be completely accurate but...
I own all three types of cars and based on my experience the above is true and fairly accurate...I will also confirm that Blizzacks make all 3 drives conciderably better.
There's no such thing as "superior" in cars. You, personally, might regard it as more desirable. Someone with different priorities will see it very differently.
And the X3 would get nowhere in a Rallye competition, don't be silly, it has not been engineered for racing.
It's *boring* to have people advance their predictable brand agenda in this forum no matger what the topic.
As good as they are, none of these cars represents perfection, nor is any of them a universal better fit for everybody. Different people will be better served by the different cars, and the car will be "better" to them, and them only.
Incidentally, I have owned RWD BMWs, and they became undrivable in the snow even eith intermediate tires. I drive my girlfriend's Fiat Uno with summer tires and FWD, and it was an excellent drive in the winter. That didn't make it a "better" car, even though by your logic it would be if you happened to sell Fiats, and not Beemers.
There's a bit more to the story about front wheel drive than "evolving to decrease manufacturing costs". The very innovative Citroen Traction Avant, 1st introduced in 1934 offered increased interior space as a primary selling point since FWD elminates the interior transmission hump and the rear cavity to house the differential that still persists in RWD cars to this day. The Mini, 1st introduced in 1960, proved that performance was not the sole domain of the old style RWD cars, winning not only many sedan classes but major events. The Mini went on to win the Monte Carlo Rallye in 64, 65 and 67. FYI Monte has been won by just about everyone, including Mercedes and Porsche, Toyota, Lancia, etc. but never by BMW, even in the 2002Tii days.
The Infiniti AWD system (see their web site) automatically prevents torque steer from happening by shifting power to different wheels in real time, since it's slippage issue induced by steering geometry vs. contact patch moment arms.
Weight balance on the G35 is 52/48.
Like I said in the earlier post, the Infiniti AWD systems puts 100% of the drive power to the rear wheels on dry pavement and going into turns as you would do with RWD (it's the only system so far to do so). But better still, it picks up on any slippage issues in the turn and auto adjusts front to back and side to side to get optimum turn mid and exit handling.
The Infiniti AWD system is incredibly appropriate for luxury cars since it takes the best of the older technology still sold by companies like BMW and integrates it with the advantages of FWD for the best handling on all road surfaces. You can't stand there with a straight face and tell a customer that RWD is better (unless you are a Washington DC class fibber).
Maybe BMW is the right car for tooling around flat, freshly swept parking lots in Phoenix, but even in Florida where they get lots of rain, and elsewhere in the U.S. where weather varies, you'd have to be silly to buy a vehicle that didn't have this kind of system on tap for you. That's what luxury means today.
Plus the G35 has tremendous performance. It has 35 more hp than the 330/530 BMW's and 44 more ft lbs of torque. It's roomier in the front than the 5. It might not be perfect for everyone, but RWD handling isn't a selling point when another manufacturer has it and more.
I'd love to see a link to a competition of amateur journalists driving an X3 against professional driver's in Subaru's, particularly WRC's. Post it for us!
First off, if you wish to disagree, I clarified what my specific points were regarding my contention that RWD is more appropriate in a luxury/sports sedan. I sense a tone a personal disdain rather than thoughtful debate. You have offered no relative counter points that I see. Perhaps, you had a bad experience at a BMW dealership or dislike car salesman ......... ??
Secondly, I didn't say that BMW was superior. I said that FWD cars were inferior handlers. To dismiss any of my remarks because you feel like I'm predictable or promoting an agenda is certainly your prerogative.
There is no such thing as superior in cars? I'll try to understand that. Are you voting for Nader?
The Alcan 5000 is billed as the longest most grueling winter race in the world. http://europeancarweb.com/news/0408ec_aican/
read about the smashing results of the X3. very impressive ......
> sedan
Exactly. And I contend it's not up to you to define that for everybody else. Some people actually *enjoy* the idiosyncrasies of a high-powered FWD, imperfect as it may be to win track days, it may very well be more entertaining in the real world. Case in point: Porsche 911. Dynamically, it's lunacy to have the RWD-read engine layout. It didn't make the classic Beetle a superior handler. And yet the 911 is superbly entertaining because it's unforgiving at times. So is a Saab Viggen with its FWD. It's silly to claim anything about inherent superiority: none of us wants to win world titles, we just want to enjoy our every day ride, and we each value different things when it comes to that. I actually got bored of being cocooned from the external world by stability and traction controls and all around smoothness. To others its luxury, to me it became utterly boring. I am still waiting for the luxury ride that appeals to me - something like the Bristol Blenheim they have in England, a more eccentric choice. There's nothing like that in the US market, because marketeers like yourself assume the whole public wants just one lowest common denominator of what a luxury car is supposed to be, and thus they're all mutating into increasingly being the same thing with different brand names on top. We consumers need more variety, and some of us have acutally lost what would appeal to us and can only help ourselves by going classic. I'd buy a $70k car without electronic aids and with some handling imperfections, but with a unique aesthetic proposition, in one second. I tried it with the Jag XJR I owned for a while, but it proved to be too vanilla for me in the end. I actually prefer the Saab 9-3 convertible I currently drive, believe it or not. It keeps me far more entertained when I drive.
I'm not telling people how to think. I simply have made some points here supporting my opinion. Saab owners typically are a little odd in my opinion.
They do have some ice racing and slaloms where handling matters and those scores are added to your timing scories. The X3 was 5th in competitive driving part, well beaten by 3 Subi's and a Mazda 323 running without studs!
Thanks
It sounds like a lot of fun for the sixteen cars that entered with tales of $18 martinis naer the Artic circle, lots of sliding around and hard to figure mileage.
What's impressive is the scores done by the driver and navigator that won. Similar skills are needed to do well in the annual Great Race which is done in antique cars with stock odos.
The victory in Alcan like in the GR, had little to do with the specific vehicles, much more to do with the navigators.
BMW hired some of the best local TSD rallyists to run the X3's, while other 'amateurs' from the local Oregon SCCA region were the other comeptitors.
TSD rallying, unlike the pro rally series in the U.S. or European/WRC rallies, doesn't have any pros.
The closest thing to Pros in the SCCAR Road Rally comeptitions are the folks that have been doing it for 30+ years and who have accumulated Lifetime Nally Rally points by finishing in the top six of a National SCCA road rally.
The standings are listed in the back of the SCCA Rally regs and these are without a doubt the best TSD road rally folks on the planet.
None of the winners in Alcan are listed in the SCCA list, so they were most likely talented locals and ALCan veterans.
No conclusions to be drawn from this event except that the folks navigating the BMW's gave them a good enough performance TSD timing and calculating wise to overcome coming in 5th in the ice racing and slaloms.