High End Luxury Cars

reality2 · February 2005

Check the stats for European sales before you say that the LS is more prevalent than the A8L. Also, the A8L beat the Lexus in a comparo from Motor Trend last year. It all depends on the magazine. The A8L has garnished more world-wide accolades than any car in its class. A3s aren't sold in the US first of all. Audi moved 12100 A8s in Western Europe, BMW moved 12150 7-Series, and MB moved about 16,000 S-Classes in Western Europe in 2004. Lexus sold a total of 20,000 vehicles in Western Europe, so I do not see how there are more LSs in Europe than A8s as you claim. You get a reality check and don't belittle other people because they do not agree with your opinion, because that is all it is.

A true end high luxury marquee as you state would only apply to Rolls, Bently, etc. if you use your logic. Again, you fail to see my point. A true luxury marquee must have a world presence. Why is Lexus now turning to design and performance aspects because it sees it cannot shove mindless cars down European's throats as it does in America. World-wide, Lexus is a poser and that is it. Come back in ten years and then start your discussion.

brightness04 · February 2005

Where have I ever claimed that there are more LSs in Europe than A8s? You need get a reality check yourself.

As far as I know, Lexus is only beginning to set up a dealer network in Europe.

Audi's worldwide presence is not a luxury marquee at all. Nearly 3 out of 4 Audis sold worldwide in 2004 were A3's and A4's. These are not luxury cars. You can't have it both ways, claiming world presence for Audi as high marquee definition then discounting plebian A3 as not relevent to the marquee because it's not yet sold in the US. Worldwide presence is quite irrelevent, it would be hard to deny Cadillac STS and DTS or Toyota Crown as high end luxury marquees even though they are only offered in their home markets.

If you really want to talk about world-wide, MB and Audi are not lexury brands at all. The majority of their cars compete with Toyota, Ford and GM/Opel.

sapparo · February 2005

Your sound a like another jealous, hopeless europhile who spins things to fit your BS agenda. Keep dreaming about the washed out german junk produced today. Lexus is kicking down the door and they're taking over the house. You should know and do that Japan is the premier quality and manufacturing king of today and that's not changing soon. Bow down to the best and learn, adapt or pay the price like Mercedes is doing.

German cars are inferior to what Japan makes today, I dont care what price range high-low they are inferior in build, electrical and robustness. They are moody, unpredictable, overcomplicated just like just like the people who build them. 2nd rate quality priced like Tiffany. Germany is a washed out second rate country and power globally. Their even mocked by our own defense secretary. Their high cost socialist welfare state and labor rate makes them all the more disadvantaged globally along with making cars that are delicate and break easy. Just remember Asia is where it's happening Europe is soon becoming irrelevant. The Euros are envious like you of the Asians because they work harder are more disciplined people and have the highest performing kids in schools learning to make better Lexus's.

Audi's are the saddest case of all, not bought by hardly anyone here and made to look purdy on the outside but internals that matter are garbage and 3rd rate. The LS430 is many times better than the dismal selling, low resale value overweight porker A8 clad in aluminum. Any advantage the A8 might have now will be history when they try to benchmark the next LS like they did the bigger disaster Phaeton. The germans are clueless about quality and it shows year after year. Take your potshots at Lexus I got many more in store for consumption.

brightness04 · February 2005

Why is Lexus now turning to design and performance aspects because it sees it cannot shove mindless cars down European's throats as it does in America.

Puleeeaze! Enough American bashing already. Europeans have plenty crap cars like Fiat, Citroen and Rover that simply could not make it here in the most competitive market in the world: North America. VW/Audi may be on the brink here again soon. European bureacrats and governments provide a safety net as buyers of last resort to their domestic car brands; talk about shoving mindless cars down taxpayers' throats. Lexus moving beyond their core competence in pursuit of design and performance goals simply because they want expand their product range to conquer more market segments.

World-wide, Lexus is a poser and that is it.

Worldwide, an average Lexus is much more luxurious and at a much higher price point than an average MB or Audi.

bobcatman · February 2005

I agree with the above this Euro poser guy is thumping his chest like the Germans make good cars. Throw a boomerang and it's going to come back and hit you on head. Get real dude! They make average quality cars with above average problems and pricing. Lexus is cleaning their clocks and now we have Infiniti executing great products to make BMW feel the hurt. BTW, the new GS looks like a million bucks in person and should hit the boring looking E class pretty hard.

My engineer brother hates Germans cars because long ago he had an Audi A6 that was a true piece of crap that had many electrical problems and parts failing early on. Thats why I still love to pick on Audis because they to this day still continue to make designer duds as does Mercedes which is a bigger issue than irrelevant small time Audi. The only thing missing on the new Audis is the loud back up buzzer beep, beep, beep
semi backing up.

michael_mattox · February 2005

I think you are right ...I need to find one to drive.

ctsang · February 2005

Europe is old country and is dying. The future belongs to Asia. Look at consumer electronics. Look at how hard those kids study in Asia compare to European kids. Look at how hard people work in Japan compare to those lazy workers in Germany or France. MB will go the way of RR, only memories of the great past.

pat · February 2005

Let's keep to the cars. We don't need to be arguing about where people work harder and other things of that nature that have nothing to do with our subject.

Another point is that some of posts in here are getting too personal. If you don't like someone else's opinion, that's fine, but debate the opinions presented and keep what you think of the poster out of it.

chris65amg · February 2005

Err... I think that Lexus is really cleaning up vs. BMW, Benz and Audi in the US, and isn't the US the biggest car market in the world? Besides, Lexus is starting dealerships in Japan, and will probably head to Europe soon enough. A bit of a reality check (not meant to offend)

In the US, we have more money to spend on cars than anywhere else in the world (generality) Companies like Audi and Benz with the A3/4 and A,C and stripped E classes only do that because they have to in order to surivive. Also, a lot of the streets are smaller in Europe. I really don't think that I would buy a BMW or Audi over a Lexus. Lexus has them creamed (in the US) just because the cars are comparable but a bunch less. Not that I don't like Audi, but that's just because of the technical problems they all seemed to have a while back. Trust me, I hold grudges, which is perfectly normal for a comsumer. (Consuming cars, eh?)

Here's my list of true luxury marques:
Bentley (my favorite)
Rolls-Royce (gaudy, but oh well)
Mercedes-Benz (cachet! woohoo!)
Bugatti (woot woot)
Audi (to an extent, but I'm not buying one)
Lexus (Traaditional luxury, and no doubt about it)

I'm done

Chris

oac · February 2005

Phew !

Gets hotter and hotter in here !!

Designman must be enjoying that rocker chair soaking all of these in, eh

ljflx · February 2005

When I'm on the highway with a phenomenal luxury car under me, basked in a luxurious interior, the best stereo I've ever heard in a car blaring away, trusting in bulletproof reliability backed up by experience and proof from worldwide surveys by first class companies the last thing in the world I care about is some brands racing heritage or the fact that it won some event in 1912. If I'm buying a car to race around an oval I'll give that stuff consideration. Get real.

Whoever said Audi wasn't a lux brand? It's just last on the totem pole and many don't give it serious consideration. That's the way it is and that's why it sells so few A8's and most of its sales are skewed to A4's. Lexus will outsell it by 30K units with the RX alone and just from that vehicle will sell at a higher average sale price than Audi's whole car line in the US. That's the reality of the situation. Nothing wrong with loving an A8 but to have to justify buying it because of a racing heritage is way too far out for me.

Posted this once before but even though the A8 got the most wanted label in Edmunds, it scored lower than the LS by Edmunds itself, as did all the other German marques. So much for racing heritage.

http://www.edmunds.com/new/audi/index.html?tid=edmunds.n.maininde- x.content..0.*

http://www.edmunds.com/new/2005/lexus/ls430/index.html?tid=edmund- s.n.mmindex.content.num6.0.lexus*

designman · February 2005

Designman must be enjoying that rocker chair soaking all of these in, eh 

Oac Designman is doing what Japanese carmakers should be doingdesigning! Im also putting out a ton of fires you know what its like. Eventually he will leave to go home, at which time he will make love to a Martini or two (or three), and if time permits (doubt it) he will read the details of this mess and add to it! This place is funny. Its dormant for two months and then it explodes. Must have something to do with the return of the Prodigal Son Merc. Hes a legend in his own time.

;-)

ljflx · February 2005

That's a great looking MB you posted. Do you know why they killed the Mcclaren relationship?

On the lease issue my point is there are LS430's that cost more to lease than an S430, a 7 or an A8 in some cases despite stickering 10-12K less. The point there is comparative prices is not having an effect and if anything people are passing up a lease sale of the German cars. The lease game is frought with variablility tied to residuals, interest rates and hidden subsidies. Secondly I think because of reliability issues people who go the European route are skewing more and more to leases. But the other thing is the business deductibility issues and the fact that often, if you do the math, it's barely more expensive to buy at lease-end rather than buy up front. So why not take a 3 year trial for a nominal fee? Me - I will always lease one car at least because of business. I'll probably go one more round on an SUV lease and then either buy a new one after that or buy that next one at lease end. I'm wed to SUV's for at least 7 more years because of family.

rl81 · February 2005

Question: how many variants of 2005 Rolls-Royce Phantom are out there?
Answer: Exactly one.

Question: Can you find two identical Rolls-Royce?
Answer: Highly unlikely because every Rolls is uniquely made to order.

So, I am pretty sure that you won't find two identical Rolls-Royce, even though there is only one 'version'.

rl81 · February 2005

It's also not true that the A8 has "everything an LS430 has and more"...for instance, a backup camera, or a Mark Levinson sound system that has seen rave reviews in true audiophile publications such as The Absolute Sound, or a little refrigerator for the rear passengers. Maybe a little over the top, by YOU are the one who started talking about luxury appointments.

If you want to play that game then let's do it:
Have you ever heard about 'S'? That's the internal special equipment division of Audi (like AMG for MB and M for BMW). They let you specify everything on your car. If you want to have Mark Levinson sound system (I don't really know why the Bose wouldn't be good enough) they'll put it in. Plus your little fridge...that's a piece of cake! And while you're at it why don't you order the leather in the same color of your wife's favorite dress...
But I am sure Lexus will have that next year, so so...

syswei · February 2005

"luxury SUV's???MB created the segment. it didn't exist before the ML"

I am so sorry if this comes as a shock to those who think the automotive world revolves around Germany, but MB DID NOT create the luxury SUV market. The ML was introduced in MY1998, and a number of others preceded it:

1997 Infiniti QX4
1996 LX450
1996 Acura SLX
1994 Land Rover Discovery
1970 Land Rover Range Rover

Now, maybe some of these don't qualify as "true luxury"...but then, does the ML?

So exactly what category of SUV's did MB "create"??? Surely not the category of "luxury SUV" as was claimed. Maybe a category called "wannabe luxury SUV with shoddy reliability and cheapo interior"?

blckislandguy · February 2005

I hate to mention this but this morning's Financial Times has a front page article on how even the German cab drivers are mad at MB and have turned away from buying their cars for commercial use. Kind of like when a lobsterman won't eat the fish in a local restaurant.

This board has got to be the liveliest, most informed and intellectual on Edmunds.

rl81 · February 2005

That's harsh! Somebody here probably has never heard of a car known as the 'G-class'! What would you classify that as? In my book it is a...well...I would have to say something like: 'the first luxury SUV'??? I admit it didn't start as one but it sure was one for, let's say, the last 10 or so years. I don't know what kind of cars Lexus made back then...

syswei · February 2005

Granted, the G has been around awhile....as a military vehicle. Maybe merc1 could enlighten us as to when it became something that could be called "luxurious". I rather doubt that it happened before the Range Rover came around in 1970, so the claim that MB invented the luxury SUV market is still false.

denaliinpa · February 2005

hey guys,

i almost don't want to go to work...i miss too much!

first i have a question. how many Lexus dealers are there in the USA?

it's nice to see a poster [reality2] have the passion that he has. the German brands do have a long and rich racing heritage. my guess is Europeans expect more from an automobile than just top billing in reliability surveys. right now Lexus is non existent in Europe.... not because they haven't tried [approx.200 dealers] but because their offerings are just not being accepted by the buying public....which i am sure is for various reasons...styling, performance, brand awareness.

right now Toyota is selling what they usually badged as Toyotas.... as Lexus's in Japan to build some brand awareness. this isn't a dig but isn't it really strange that Toyota didn't launch Lexus first in Japan? i understand the US market is huge but why not market the cars under the name you build them .....in the country you build them?

Lexus's hold on the JD powers top rating is admirable. has anyone given any thought to the fact that the other car makers that are not "no.1" make pretty nice cars? and because they are not "no.1" does not instantly exclude them from being interesting and viable alternatives if not even better vehicles? when i look at purchasing a new vehicle jdpowers is not the one and only source of information nor is it the definitive answer on what is "best". i am perplexed that such emphasis is placed on a one part of a survey that clearly shows that many quality vehicles are manufactured worldwide today.

a lot has been made of Audi selling many A4's. if Lexus sells 280000 cars a year in the US and only roughly 30000 of them are Ls's...isn't it like the pot calling the kettle black?

what i feel differentiates Lexus from the German 3 is their lack of true upper end flagships, using re badged Toyota's to fill showrooms to inflate sales, no high performance models, and no brand identity in their design. now that i pissed everyone off i want to say this....Toyota corp. assembles automobiles terrificly. and every once in a while they even design an automobile that is a real attention getter(original LS400). the future looks great for Lexus(all that Toyota cash can't hurt!). ....but...i would really be surprised if they duplicate their success in Europe. i just don't see boring and bland designs selling that well there.

also...while most of the Lexus faithful are rabidly enjoying any problems the Germans maybe having...they better look in their rear view mirror because Infiniti is on the move. my guess is that Infiniti will steal many more sales from Lexus than the Germans brands. reason....price point. just as Lexus has undercut the Germans i expect Infiniti to undercut Lexus. not by much.... but enough of a difference along with more sporting designs to give Lexus some fits on the soil that made it successful. they will have to fight to preserve market share in the US and at the same time try to convince rigid European buyers to give their product another chance. not an easy job.

syswei · February 2005

Nice find, blockisland. For those who are interested, here is an excerpt "Visitors travelling by taxi to the DaimlerChrysler headquarters in Stuttgart used to have one choice of vehicle: Mercedes. The same was true throughout Germany. But on visits in the recent wintry months, the taxi rank has usually been headed by a Volkswagen, Opel or - worst of all - a Mazda."

full text:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/62b860d0-808a-11d9-bd50-00000e2511c8.htm- l

syswei · February 2005

I guess I'm missing something. Why does someone who is such a fan of Audi keep harping on Lexus selling "rebadged Toyotas"? Isn't Audi mostly selling "rebadged VWs"?

rl81 · February 2005

Alright somebody has his facts a little wrong here: It is true that VW shares a lot of it's platforms among several cars. Drive them and you'll realize that they are completely different cars. Not even the Golf and the Beetle are similar in their driving experience!!! I can tell you that!

Now to MB: They always had the C-class (last 20-30 years or so). They started the A and will introduce the B because they want to capture a younger market. They had problems in the past with they customers getting older and this was a logical move (strategically).

Please DO NOT compare Mini with Scion!!! The Mini is a great car (driving+looks+image), but Scion gets 'the ugliest car in the world' -award!!!

RR, Maybach, and Bentley are the top of the line, however remember that Bugatti is coming and topping everythign that has been there before!!!

denaliinpa · February 2005

ok...the infiniti....aka...pathfinder
lx450.....aka....landcruiser
slx.....aka.....trooper
the other 2...heck i don't know.
MB created the mid size luxury suv category.
from scratch....from the ground up.
if i wanted a Toyota or a Nissan or an Isuzu....guess what....i would buy one because they are the exact same vehicle!!!! and guess what...i would save some money! why would a person purchase a true "Wannabe" re badged vehicle. what's the upside.....saying i have an Infiniti or Lexus when actually i have a Nissan or Toyota. to me that's "wannabe"!

rl81 · February 2005

The A-class, A3, and the 1 series are not supposed to be luxury, they are 'premium-compacts'. I don't know about you but I can live with that.

oac · February 2005

Designman:

Although this is the wrong forum for it but I'll carefully mention to you that on CL, their are rave reviews of the new 2006 GS300. Looks like the initial coolness and reservations to the exterior skin of this new Lex sport-sedan is giving way to a lot of excitement about the car. Many of these are from hard core tuners and performance-inclined drivers. Turned out that seeing the car in person is a whole lotta different than all of these pics flying around. Me: I have seen it in person and do like the GS, although it ddn't move me like, say an e39/e59. But I am waiting to actually sit in the car and get it on a freeway.

Side-view (with the 18" wheels):

Rear-side:

rl81 · February 2005

true end high luxury marquee as you state would only apply to Rolls, Bently, etc. if you use your logic. Again, you fail to see my point. A true luxury marquee must have a world presence. Why is Lexus now turning to design and performance aspects because it sees it cannot shove mindless cars down European's throats as it does in America. World-wide, Lexus is a poser and that is it. Come back in ten years and then start your discussion.

I have to agree with you even though I think you are a little harsh in your form of expression. Lexus makes solid cars, no question about that, but what many people here fail to understand is that world-wide it doesn't come close to 'the Germans'. And people who want to tell me that Japanese design is cutting edge really need a reality check. Japan is not avant-garde in anything that requires good looks. If I am wrong please give me an example I would be happy to change my mind. German car design is cutting edege...if you like it or not!!!

oac · February 2005

Any thoughts on the M6 ? I saw a pic in this month's Automobile magazine. Let me reserve my comment until I hear yours....

Eeeeeoooooooowwwwww !!!

syswei · February 2005

Ok, I guess we've made a little progress: you've gone from "luxury SUV's???MB created the segment. it didn't exist before the ML" to the current claim "MB created [only] the mid size luxury suv category". Well, even that is wrong. EPA doesn't have size classifications for SUVs, but if we go by Edmund's classifications, the Range Rover, Discovery, and ML are ALL considered midsize, and the ML was the last of the three to be introduced, far from "creating" the category.

rl81 · February 2005

Wow...you seem to want to be like an ostrich and put your head in the ground (America=World therefore we don't care about the rest. In order to get an unbiased picture here you can't take out the other countries. Consider this: what is the popularity of Japanese cars in the Emirates??? (a region of the world where the average middle class person laughs about the income of most people in the forum...no offense...and NO I am not from there) I can tell you: not as high as German cars, Italian sports cars... But this is just an example. AND...this is a market for luxury cars where price is not an issue.

denaliinpa · February 2005

Range Rover...yes they did exist. the ML, RX, X5, FX45, Cadillacs..SRX? , Disco, MDX, are the vehicles i was thinking of. and i stand by my statement that the ML created this particular catagory.

syswei · February 2005

the article appears here:
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/62b860d0-808a-11d9-bd50-00000e2511c8.htm

ljflx · February 2005

The car is beautiful in person, much nicer than the pix. If this takes off and I think it will, add in the hybrids and it might be lights out sooner than I think.

Today I was driving down the Garden State Pkwy in NJ and there in the right lane barely ahead of me were a GS (current model, of course), the new 5 and new E. I had never seen the three lined up in sequence before on a road. It was in heavy traffic so they were close together as well. But the 5 just stood out because it is just such a plodding odd looking car. I just looked at it and wondered what Bangle could have been thinking with such a mis-proportioned car. My second thought was how could my cyber buddy - You - possibly start to like this thing. The E was by far the best looking car of the group - until this new GS comes out. It's a winner.

I'm starting to get a kick out of our German car lovers posts. It's amazing how they can't handle Lexus ruining the German party. If I was a German cvar lover I'd thank God every day Lexus was around. Ten years ago an MB S500 cost $10-12k more than it does now. If Lexus doesn't come to the party the $85K you now pay would have been over $110K. There's your damage measurement to MB's bottom line and the gain for those who depise Lexus for causing it. Sometimes people don't know who their friends are.

syswei · February 2005

Maybe the germancarfans should thank Lexus for keeping the Germans honest on price, as you say. But the reliability decline could be attributed to the German's competitive response to Japan, i.e., adding the gadgetry that has caused problems. Oh, I forgot...reliability just isn't important, the only thing that counts is handling and racetrack performance of V12s that hardly anyone buys.

denaliinpa · February 2005

are you sure you didn't see a Maxima?

rl81 · February 2005

You had some great arguments!!!

I don't know the sales of Lexus/Lexus sold as Toyota in Japan, however I remember seeing a documentary about Luxury cars in Japan and most people intervied said that they like European cars, because they are 'different' and NOT-Japanese...kinda makes sense to me.

In my opinion, why Lexus can undercut MB, BMW, etc. is one, definitely because of their production (that is what they are really good in), and two their financial situation. Totyota makes a lot of money and Lexus can just break even without being hurt financially. The same is true for Acura and Infinity.

MB and BMW are not really set up to do that because they have to operate at higher margins in the upper classes. That was one VERY important reason for the merger with Chrysler, who was the most profitable car company in the world in profit per car. BMW can't do that because the closest to a volume model was the last 3 Series. I can't prove that, but I don't think, due to the corporate governance, that Audi recieves financial support from VW.

It changes the picture dramatically if you HAVE to make a profit compared to just needing to break even (or maybe less).
The result: Japanese Cars are cheaper than German cars. FACT! Americans, even in the higher market segment buy their cars depending on price! The problem I see with this is that most people read quality and 'being better' into those higher sales.

ljflx · February 2005

Ouch. MB's getting killed everywhere.

That's my whole prestige issue in a nutshell. Paying a big price for high quality is, and always will be prestigious. Story of MB until about a dozen years ago. Paying a big price for poor quality that even cab drivers won't put up with is downright embarrassing. That's why their hold on the top prestige spot isn't going to last much longer.

denaliinpa · February 2005

the part that is interesting to me is.... how is Lexus going to keep Acura, Infiniti, and Cadillac from eating away at the 40k to 50k segment. in my opinion Infiniti is the wild card. they seem to sense that the car buyer in this segment wants a little more power along with better handling characteristics. Lexus is introducing a revised GS...Infiniti a revised M45....Cadillac STS. it will be interesting to see which car prevails. not only in higher sales....but which prevails in the automotive media. while both of these cars fight it out "Z" Germans will be introducing even more efficient and more powerful V8 engines.

this idea that the Germans will be forever fighting uphill in the jdpower quality surveys is a false and misleading sense of comfort. to think that they will roll over and die is ridiculous. the next 5 years will be very telling...not only for the Germans but Lexus as well.

ljflx · February 2005

But Lexus is quite profitable and has been for 10 years now. The only time they lost money was in the early 90's. The moment the LS started going into the 40's and on up to $60k the profits skyrocketed. The RX put them through the roof. They only have 250 dealers in the US so distribution costs are quite low, they have incredibly efficient production and low personnel costs because they used robots to build cars since day one. Toyota just knows what they are doing in this business better than anyone around. Even the Scion will be in the black sooner than anyone thinks.

ljflx · February 2005

Infiniti and Acura tried very hard to make their cars Lexus-like and were at a cheaper price. Result - total failure with Infiniti almost going out of business and Acura losing all its momentum. That battle is long over and was about as close as the Oklahoma/USC National championship game. That's why both are going the performance route and gunning for BMW and Audi. Neither brand, nor Cadillac is even remotely a threat. Lexus is cross-shopped with MB more than anything else. Again - you can imagine whatever you want but reality is very different.

rl81 · February 2005

In the engine part, I can tell you more: the technology to watch out of Germany is Diesel. Now, most of you will say that Diesel and Luxury won't fit together. Especially in the US, an engine that has more torque and less consumption should make sense, especially because on average Americans drive the most in the whole world.

Now, unless they screw up the marketing (MB didn't do a very good job at that with the E320cdi), this might take a considerable part of the market.

Consider this:
BMW 535d
3 liters
2 variable turbos (small=low RPM, large=high RPM)
270 HP
almost as much torque as the 760
better MPG than a 325

Why would that NOT be appealing? I really want some reasons because I can't see any...

brightness04 · February 2005

Alright somebody has his facts a little wrong here: It is true that VW shares a lot of it's platforms among several cars. Drive them and you'll realize that they are completely different cars. Not even the Golf and the Beetle are similar in their driving experience!!! I can tell you that!

Of course there are differences. RSX drives very different from a Civic. Heck even a Civic EX Coupe exhibits more driving difference from Civic DX Sedan than the difference betwen Golf and Beetle. Get real, of course there are differences. You can feel difference when you change tires or suspension components yourself. Yet the sharing of platform is obvious. There is nothing intrisicly wrong with sharing platforms, however the way VW is doing is leaving Audi with nothing unique in the drive train at all. Audi not only share the upper end VW platforms, but also heavily the cheapest platforms. That makes debases the Audi brand just what Acura using Civic platform for high volume RSX.

Now to MB: They always had the C-class (last 20-30 years or so). They started the A and will introduce the B because they want to capture a younger market. They had problems in the past with they customers getting older and this was a logical move (strategically).

Get your own facts straight: there was no C-class 20 years ago. A 4 banger 190-class, maybe. Introducing cheaper cars for the youth market must be the oldest joke in the industry. Cheap models like A-class usually finds retirees and working stiff as buyers. The youth who care about brand cachet usually buy 2nd hand big pimp mobiles as their first cars.

Please DO NOT compare Mini with Scion!!! The Mini is a great car (driving+looks+image), but Scion gets 'the ugliest car in the world' -award!!!

Scions are not quite as ugly as A class variants. tC is positively an elegant alternative to the C Coupe.

RR, Maybach, and Bentley are the top of the line, however remember that Bugatti is coming and topping everythign that has been there before!!!

Considering that the existing triplets are having a tough time in sales, it's doubtful Bugatti would succeed, or ever see the light of the day for that matter. My suspicion is that VW will eventually decide to can Bugatti altogether as another of Ferdinand Piech's follies. We live in a world where the lastest Civic platform cost $4 billion to design and engineer. The expected $300 million revenue (300 at $1m apiece) will probably result in another over-designed and under-engineered expensive car. It's relatively cheap to design swoopy lines and tag new gizmo onto marketting propaganda. It costs a heck lot more money to engineer out the nitty-gritty details. IMHO, that's the fundamental reason why German marquees are having so much troubles. They are simply under-engineered. The Civic platform shows the result of what $4 billion can do in working out the details. The S class, 7 and A8 each involved only about one tenth the amount of money in the design and engineering process. Having numerous variants spread the meager resource even thinner. Little wonder things start to fall apart when the vehicles started moving.

ljflx · February 2005

US set up for gas, diesel still has plenty of pollution laws that diesel engines can't meet and gas hybrids will have far too big a jumpstart. I don't know anyone who would even think of buying a diesel. Lastly do you think the Europeans would have the guts to take that chance anyway? No they will try it with a bunt like the CDI. Far too risky and in the condition some of them are in, it may not even be an alternative. This is the whole part of business capitalization that no one wants to deal with here. It's business and finance success that allows risks to be taken. When Toyota brought in Lexus in the first place it was because of their great capitalization then - which is absolutely dwarfed by their current financial strength - that allowed them to do it right. Compare that to VW's attempt with the Phaeton.

michael_mattox · February 2005

DENALIINPA:

Ahhhhhhhh...German IRON...

Audi A-8 336 HP...O-60 6.3 sec..No bad for a big car.

Lexus LS430 290 HP...0-60... 5.9 SEC...and it gets much better gas milage.

ENOUGH SAID.

rl81 · February 2005

Do you have any proof for the profit? I didn't say that Lexus is not profitable. You didn't seem to understand my argument.

I agree that Toyota has one of the best production systems around. Have you ever been in a car factory? You don't see many people in there any more...anywhere!!! That is not the Toyota advantage. Besides have you ever heard of kaizen, lean manufacturing, JIT...Taiichi Ono??? THAT is the Toyota advantage!
Now...the 'German' advantage is innovation, design, motorsport...engineering.

Compare: manufacturing (Japan) - engineering (Germany/Europe)

AND PLEASE to EVERYONE: reliability DOES NOT EQUAL quality!!! In my book reliability has to do how often somehting breaks and quality has to do with the materials and how it was built. Compare cars after 20 years...

brightness04 · February 2005

Man, you are behind time. Infiniti's best selling SUV is FX, not QX. LX450 has not been made since 1998 or thereabouts. SLX has not been made for more than half a decade as well.

Truckish SUV's selling for high price were available in the form of Land Rovers, Humvees and Jeep Grand Cherokee Limited long before ML came along. There's nothing luxurious about any of them with their horrendous ride quality and spartan interior. RX was what really started the car-based luxury SUV segment, like X5, FX, XC90, SRX, X3, etc., even the upcoming new ML.

ljflx · February 2005

There are books about Toyota you will have to read or better yet get the Lexus story to at least understand the background. I know it mainly because of work I did in the Automobile Information industry. That same work is why I know how crucial and seriously taken the CR and JDP surveys and resulting benchmarks are taken by the industry. My old company almost bought JDP, RL Polk, Carfax and others and as CFO I was deeply involved in business strategy and acquisitions. That's why I have to laugh at criticism of the JDP surveys I see. People have no idea how important these things are or how good the quality control is.

michael_mattox · February 2005

So you are saying that with their tremenous lead in engineering...Lexus still trumps the Germans in Dependability...WITH manufacturing???

I would note that one of the most advanced technologies to hit the auto industry ...Hybred Tech is about to take over the market ...Especially the Luxury market...why..BIG POWER...Little fuel consumption....

brightness04 · February 2005

Are you talking about UAE? A country with per capita GDP at $23k compared to our $37k in the US?? Get some hard facts for a change, don't go by hearsay "reputation" like other typical German car worshippers. BTW, having components falling off and/or stop working in a car is not a sign of engieering prowess.

brightness04 · February 2005

Actually Lexus makes more money per vehicle than Toyota, by a wide margin. Lexus makes more money than MB, BMW and Audi in markets that they fully compete, although BMW may have a higher per vehicle profit margin until the latest price discounting started a year or so ago. Lexus is able to achieve higher profit margin by being efficient. MB has one of the least efficient operations among all car makers in terms of production cost.

Chrysler was not doing well when MB bought it.

We have gone through this numerous times, with the lease subsidies going on by MB, BMW and Audi, there is very little cost difference in leasing a Lexus vs. leasing the Germans. About half of those high end cars are leased. Lexus out-sells all of them by a factor of 2 or more! So there you have the simple math, even assuming not a single MB, BMW or Audi is purchased due to price difference, they still lose to Lexus on the lease front, where there is no price difference.

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