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Comments
In the old days when MB cars were better, new MB was a big deal. But now no more. Look at the new M class, MB spent a lot in ads, but nobody is talking about it at all.
If MB keeps on losing money, pretty soon there will be no MB to talk about. Now that will be Yawn.
Looks like we're back to our favorite topic. I don't think MB is going anywhere. They still have the edge in Brand recognition. Sure, they've been eclipsed somewhat in the US market, but Lexus still doesn't have that worldwide brand recognition that MB does. Granted Lexus is relatively young, but MB has a 100 or so year edge in that respect.
I find that we often engage in childish discussions on this issue. It's almost like a fight between the elders and youngsters of a family. I would consider MB to be the grandfather in this segment with Lexus being the bright and upcoming youngster. I think BOTH sides deserve respect. MB: for it's heritage and committment to safety and these days style, and Lexus for setting the bar in customer service and building bulletproof machines that are a pleasure to own.
It's often amusing to read the discussions on this board. Some of us Lexus owners, seem to enjoy thumbing our noses at the MB crowd, while the MB crowd likes to dismiss (at times) what Lexus has accomplished in such a short period. Give it a rest guys, each marque has made significant contributions to the industry, and will continue to do so.
SV
Soldiers of the Toyota Army ? What could you be implying by this statement ??? I own Toyota cars/truck, and makes no profit from this. OTOH, you profit by your livelihood from MB products. Who then is the soldier ???? Oh, BTW, I did read your post carefully, and this is what you said (see post #9019)
-and it just might be that because the LS sells at a much lower pricepoint, depending on how it's equipped, a larger segment of the market finds it financially accessible...
Is it remotely possible/plausible that a product may sell more because it is better ? Because it meets more of the customer needs/wants better than its competition ? That it is priced right ? That its production is far more efficient and cost-advantage over its competition ? etc... etc.... I'd prefer we offer more robust explanations than the cookie-cutter version of its priced higher hence ....
The people posting on this board in favor of Lexus cars seem to be pushing the product much more intensely. I grew up in a Toyota family, have owned them before and think they're a fine product. The title of this thread should be "We really believe in Lexus and we will pound it through your skulls." I like almost all cars, of all pricepoints, and would love to just discuss the merits and drawbacks they all have, but the dyed in the wool brand camps are so ready to keep forcing this into an all out war, it's pathetic. I'm not saying I haven't been drawn into it as well, but it's got to stop somewhere. I have to question why to keep posting when it just goes around and around...
The next LS is certainly NOT a lock in my books. We can only go by precedence. The chances are far greater that it will deliver as promised, re-writing 1989 all over again. A re-styled 350hp LS460 with modern/custom lux and priced at mid-$60K will be the sweet spot for me.
What you (and Merc1) still aren’t getting is that the S has some “extra content” and that this can account for some degree of price difference without hurting relative unit sales. I am speaking of prestige, of course which as a 15 year old company Lexus can’t do a whole lot about in comparison to 120-year old MB. If the S and LS were equally desirable in every way except prestige, the S could be priced somewhat higher than the LS and still sell the same number of units.
How much is that extra prestige worth at the S/LS level? I don’t know. But I do know that you can’t simply explain away the S’s relative sales performance as being due solely to price, when you have the prestige factor there as a mitigating factor.
Honda's, Mitsu's, and Acura's. today Toyota doesn't manufacture one car that i would actually purchase except the current GX suv. when price enters the buying mix i for one have always felt that Toyota "dumps" the LS in the US market. dont' think for a second that Toyota doesn't price the LS below the Germans deliberately. even though i don't consider the current LS to be an equal of any of its German counterparts the pricing of the car along with it's perceived value is the main reason behind it's sales .....imo. price+payment size=sale.
one last thing.....who CARES what bill gates drives!
worry more about what his position is on estate taxes.
The problem with MB is that the basis for it's success, better reliability, has been compromised. So why would a "smart" business person pay a premium for a car that now has questionable value in terms of reliability. I love the S Class and wanted to pull the trigger even though it was significantly more expensive than the LS I wound up leasing. I preferred it's looks and ride to the LS BUT I couldn't convince the business side of my brain to pay more for a car I did not feel comfortable in from a reliability point of view. I also don't have the time or desire to make trips to the service center even if only to "fix" warning lights popping up erroneously. I had stated earlier that in 2 different test drives at 2 different dealers, the car malfunctioned.
When MB gets back to it's root mission of highest quality, then it could once again command a premium price for me.
The key words are "better" and "higher". If you are neither of the two, then the opposites apply - "mediocre" and "lower"
When MB gets back to it's root mission of highest quality, then it could once again command a premium price for me.
Well said ! Hope the MB fans think this through before throwing all sorts of labels on others....
It's funny how we talk around this place. I'd bet none of these conversations take place in our "brick and mortar" lives with the candor that goes on around here. We'd probably lose our clients and jobs in a fingersnap. Hey, remember the movie Jerry Maguire where he writes a report called "Things We Think But Never Say", then gets fired? That's this place!
Some close people at work have cars I don't like. What do you think, should I tell them about it? "That friggin' car looks like Quasimoto!!!"
;-)
Also, depending on the time of a model cycle in the year, the factory may have dealer cash on a car that in some cases steeply effects the sale price. If I have a couple of grand back on a car, I will tell you about it. and we don't keep ANY cars in green or bordeaux red, or any of those off colors, all you get there is a car you have to sell at cost. It's sad to see a beautiful design painted with a hideous color. BMW's recent designs especially only look good in certain colors, IMO.
-also, to who ever posted it, I never meant to infer that the only, or even main, reason the LS sells better than the S-class, is price. But I do believe it is a factor, although I won't put any more energy into arguing over how significant of one it is. The LS is very likely the most sensible full size luxury car on the market today, and it will appeal to most of the market, but I will maintain that not every one in that market is going to go for it.
We have had enough arguments about quality and Safety to at least admit it is close to if not better then the S class and 7 Series.
Of course I do
But if someone is locked into a brand, it's their prerogative
Like many of us here, we've had a fair share of different car brands. At this point in my car buying life, my preferred auto is a Lexus. Why ? My business involves travel and I cannot afford downtime at dealerships to fix little electrical gremlins afflicting some of the other German brands. BMW would be a choice I'd like to own, but the styling has gone south, and I am scared owning a used Bimmer. MB is beautiful but afflicted..... Don't much care for VW, Audi, or Jaguar. That's why my car choices are limited, and why I am sticking to the one car brand that has so far met my needs - Lexus.
I don't have a single friend that brags about how much he paid for his house or how little he paid for his Car...I have friends that will tell you (if you ask) what they paid for their house or car.
I think we will all agree that price is a factor in the Car buying decision. I think where we get sideways is in how big a factor it is. Surely price is not the most important factor and to some is not even a big factor. Quality, Size, Looks, Dependability, Warrenty, The Dealer, Performance, interior design, features, engine size, Safety ....and yes Prestige are all factors.
You know, I have to ask, is this about being right or winning arguments just for their own sake? I am very aware that you drive a Lexus and think very highly of it, which is fine. You're very aware that I sell as well as drive Mercedes-Benz, and think very highly of them, but I can very safely say that I find my posts to be Benz-centric because you guys are constantly on the attack. It just seems that the only time you post is to try to prove me wrong about something. There is no such thing as dialogue. Is it because I'm a salesman? I love cars and just want to talk about them. There's BMW, Infiniti, Acura I guess, Maybach, Bentley, Jag...
Maybach is drop-dead beeyuteeful, fit, finish, materials, features, doodads and geegaws, $325,000, Zowie.
Also, CLS is well done, but small in C tradition, sticker on model I saw....$102,000. Only Lexus exhibit was the new GS model.
Well, that is it from the COCOON [ '03 LS430], in S.W.FL
(We seemed to be in an endless rut)
Maybach is drop-dead beeyuteeful, fit, finish, materials, features, doodads and geegaws, $325,000, Zowie.
Also, CLS is well done, but small in C tradition, sticker on model I saw....$102,000. Only Lexus exhibit was the new GS model.
Well, that is it from the COCOON [ '03 LS430], in S.W.FL
(We seemed to be in an endless rut)
You sell Benz and drive them so that is your bias...I own an LS so that is my bias.
I agree that The S is a Beautiful Car with very high Prestige....The new GS may be even more beautiful.
I try very hard to only respond in kind...I would truly be happy just to read and learn.. but.. Perhaps because I have reached the advanced Lexus Owner Age..My bell rings in response to something posted and I feel the need to respond.
When one part of a particular post does not sit well, It's not really necessary to "respond in kind" to every post after that. Why not just accept that preferences are what they are, everyone has them and is certainly entitled to them, and when you get to the bottom line we are ALL here because we enjoy talking about the cars.
It doesn't all have to be an endless, unwinnable argument.
And of course I'm speaking to everyone, not just to you.
Just a few of the attending Phaetons...
Stroudman Excellent thoughts and good attitude. I like the philosophical and pragmatic quality of your posts lately. I am sure you will continue to do well. Don't let Camp Lexus get to you. They are tenacious. But I think everyone around here is pretty much in agreement on the positives and negatives of all these cars. It's just that the ball needs to go back an forth over the net.
Just curious...what end of the design industry are you in...what do you design?
Syswei I am a graphic designer and creative director of a company that produces scientific communications in multimedia—web, video, print, slides. I also have a degree in engineering.
Stroudman is actually a good poster and quite honest about his affiliation with MB. My only complaint is the name-calling.... I'd be happy to buy from him anyday, unless its an MB
Designman: An engineer turned scientific designer ? Makes perfect sense to me Being in the scientific business myself may well explain why I like your writings; they reflect the kind of logic that "afflict" many people in the business :)
LMAO. TENACIOUS!
Hey, how come the R&T comparo didn't get much play around here?
Gimee a B!
Gimmee an M!
;-)
More of the same. You have to be an owner and yet when I did give a lexus a compliment it isn't meant. Lets bring up how unnattractive you think older Mercedes were to try and cover up the fact on how ugly current Lexuses are. What tired nonsense. As to be expected I guess. Time for a new line Oac.
M
Who here said that price was the only reason and that if priced equally the MB and BMW models would sell at the same rate as the Lexus? Talk about reaching!
What you simply can't admit or see is that price does make a difference to some if not all the buyers in this segment. You can talk about why the price difference is there between a Lexus and a BMW/MB and whether not it is justified until you run out of space here, but no one is arguging that point. The point is that you and others take this most simplistic approach about more sales meaning a better car and that ignore price which is but one factor as to why the LS sells better. Do you honestly think Lexus would sell 30k+ LSs a year at 70k+. Well I guess you would since logic doesn't apply here.
M
You only say this because I mentioned this same thing a while ago about that character line. You never even brought it up before now!
"Then I say that I've read - several times - they are going back to the real large car of the past generations - which was a 208-209" car and I say it's a mistake - in my opinion. None of those cars ever looked anything but big to me."
I guess this comes from thinking that the Lexus LS is the way to design a bigger car. What makes you think that a 2007 S-Class is going to look anything like a 1992 S-Class because it may be the same size? This is a clear bias that is based on just that bias, nothing else. Since you've payed so much attention to the spy photos you should have realized that the car isn't going to be a box like the 1992 model was! Again this is nothing but hype to me, saying its a mistake to make a car bigger based on a 1992 design instead of taking the mindset of them taking the current car and enlarging it, which would look much better than the 1992 design. Clear and present unfounded worry based on hype.
M
" But look at GM, No. 1and the biggest for a long time, now going to be overtaken by Toyota. If Toyota can beat GM, they can beat anyone."
You already know where the conversation is going. The above statement isn't even close to being true yet, but here it is stated like its going to happen this year or that it has already happened. This is a industry projection for like 2008, but on this board and other anti-GM boards the Toyota fans are salavating on this one.
M
This is totally ridiculous for the fact that if a person doesn't have the money to buy a more expensive car prestige doesn't mean squat. This only applies the person who can buy whatever they want, now unless you have something that shows the income of every LS buyer this is way out of whack with reality . Every person that buys a LS at 61-63K can't simlply buy a S500 if they feel like the prestige is enough to get them through the payment book. Totally absurd. You're comparing something intangible like prestige to the reality of making payments.
A whole lot of people think the S-Class is prestigious (outside of this board), but that doesn't mean they can afford it.
M
Says who? You think Edmunds message boards are the end all for automotive popularity? There isn't much talk beyond the "prices paid" board for the new SLK either, but the car is outselling the old car by a ridiculous amount. Poof! There goes that theory. Lets see what the sales numbers say for the new ML, then you can make such statements if they apply. Which of course they will not.
M
Sales wise the SLK sold 3113 units from Jan-March this year, up 957 units from this time frame last year. A huge improvement.
The Porsche Boxster has sold 1752 units from Jan-March (both old and new model), up from 943 units during the same period last year. Also a big improvment.
[Source:http://www.theautochannel.com/news/Headlines-Automotive.html]
The stick vs. auto ratio for the SLK350 I have no idea about. Maybe Stroudman can shed some light on this?
M
A whole lot of people think the S-Class is prestigious (outside of this board), but that doesn't mean they can afford it.
Yes, it is true that a higher priced vehicle is affordable to fewer people. But for the subset of people that can afford the higher priced one, the higher priced one can still outsell the lower priced one, if there is sufficient extra "content". Those people that are interested in and able to pay more for more content can outnumber those who are unable to afford the higher-priced vehicle.
Why else would the S500 sometimes outsell the S430? Aren't there fewer people able to afford the S500 because of its higher price?
Why would the E consistently outsell the C? Aren't there fewer people able to afford the E because of its higher price?
More content at a higher price can sometimes outsell lower content at a lower price, despite the affordability factor. So again I’ll say that If the S and LS were equally desirable in every way except prestige, the S could be priced somewhat higher than the LS and still sell the same number of units.
Well, Merc1, I haven't ever heard you give any other reason expect PRICE for why the LS sells more than the S + BMW combined. If you have seen the error in your previous position and swung to embrace the common thread on this topic, so be it. But we all can read and there is a track record here....
What you simply can't admit or see is that price does make a difference to some if not all the buyers in this segment.
As pointed out here, the lease difference b/w a $75K S430 is only about a couple hundred $ higher than a $63K LS430. Are you implying that a greater proportion of those who lease the LS430 cannot afford to lease an S430 ? Yet the S430 sells so pitifully against the LS430. I submit that price is the least of the factor, especially consdiering the higher prestige of the MB over the Lexus. But of course, you have your position which is unshakeable, so let us move on.....
That is my point and prestige doesn't make a different to those who can't afford the car either way.
"But for the subset of people that can afford the higher priced one, the higher priced one can still outsell the lower priced one, if there is sufficient extra "content". Those people that are interested in and able to pay more for more content can outnumber those who are unable to afford the higher-priced vehicle."
This only applies if they can afford the car in the first place! Your theory assumes that everyone can just buy up at a whim and it doesn't take into account people who can afford to jump from a 63K car to a 85K one.
Furthermore you have no possible way of knowing how many buyers are part of this "subset" in order make any claims about sales one way or another. You don't know if most are part of this subset or if they aren't.
"Why else would the S500 sometimes outsell the S430? Aren't there fewer people able to afford the S500 because of its higher price?"
We're talking about a person who is already interested in what is to start a 77K vehicle so the jump to 86K isn't nearly the stretch is from the average LS transaction price of 63K. You don't think 14K makes a difference! Forget the S500.
"Why would the E consistently outsell the C? Aren't there fewer people able to afford the E because of its higher price?"
The E-Class does NOT outsell the C-Class.
"More content at a higher price can sometimes outsell lower content at a lower price, despite the affordability factor. So again I’ll say that If the S and LS were equally desirable in every way except prestige, the S could be priced somewhat higher than the LS and still sell the same number of units."
Only on this board, not in reality. You're talking a difference of 14K or more for the average LS compared to a base S-Class. There is no way you can excpect these cars to sell equally no matter how good or prestigious any buyer might think the S-Class is or its content, there are many more who aren't going to even look at a car that much more expensive. You're talking about a car that sells on average for 63K compared to one that starts at 77K and goes to 86K for base prices. Now unless you have something that shows where the most expensive LS (what is it now 72-73K) is their most popular seller then you have no point here.
They guy who walks in an get a LS430 loaded up past 70K is easily able to get a S430 or even a S500, but the guy that finds the LS in the 60s to be his ideal comfort level normally can't just say hey I have another 14-20K for a different car.
M
"As pointed out here, the lease difference b/w a $75K S430 is only about a couple hundred $ higher than a $63K LS430. Are you implying that a greater proportion of those who lease the LS430 cannot afford to lease an S430 ? Yet the S430 sells so pitifully against the LS430. I submit that price is the least of the factor, especially consdiering the higher prestige of the MB over the Lexus. But of course, you have your position which is unshakeable, so let us move on...."
Seriously, everyone doesn't lease. You really seem to forget this. Of course a few hundred dollars shouldn't, and I say shouldn't make a difference for a buyer in this segment, but this is all irrelevant to a person buying with cash and/or financing. I think you realize how one sided your example is.
M
"The second-generation Boxster is Porsche's second hit of the quarter - despite its launch in the cold month of January. In the first three months, Boxster U.S. sales were 1,752 units, up 85.8 percent from the year-ago period.
The entry Boxster costs $44,595, including shipping.
The Boxster competes with roadsters such as the Mercedes-Benz SLK, which was redesigned last fall and showed an increase of 225.3 percent for the first quarter. Sales for the quarter were 3,113 units. The BMW Z4, on the other hand, was down 23 percent in the first three months, with sales of 1,909."
[Source: link title]
The Z4 is getting killed, time for a facelift and a "M" version I'd say. Porsche is red hot though and like the article hints most of the country is just thawing out.
M
“The Cayenne SUV was Porsche's sore spot. U.S. sales were 3,093 units, down 23.3 percent from the first quarter of 2004.”
I hope MB learned a lesson with SLK. Actually, I hope EVERYONE learned a lesson because of it. Are you listening BMW?