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Comments
I wonder if you ever said the same thing about the LS and the previous S-Class. Did you ever admit that?
I admitted nothing to that effect. My 1999 LS400 has ZERO styling cues from any MB that I can recognize.
.....maybe VW thought that by copying the styling they'd get the Corolla's reliablity too?
I sure hope so, but the DNA is all wrong... and that's what VW needs, a good reliability rating to turn things around. The new Jetta looks good, just too much Corolla to ruin an otherwise nice product....Of course, IMO.
Good questions....My last 3 cars have all been purchased via online enquiries to Fleet depts. I'd think that many buyers of luxury cars may not care that much to save a nickel here or there. Just not worth the time to try to save $100 off the monthly lease payments going through 10 dealers cross-country, or inter-state, and having to deal with multiple sales people. Buying a can is often a very stressful thing, and some of us may just prefer to avoid the hassle altogether. Several community or Credit Union banks will help you locate and buy your car of choice, with minimal fees, and at much better discount than you can get on your own. Or you may just go back to your preferred dealer and get things done quickly and painlessly, sure you may have overpaid, but who cares as long as you enjoy the product....
1. Whore-up the market by selling cars at or near cost, which shows high volume numbers, tends to keep CSI scores relatively high, and keeps the dealer in high regard of the factory reps. The factory doesn't care what the dealer's gross-per-car is, as long as they're putting units in the street.
2. Say to hell with the factory and their numbers, I'm going to take very good care of a smaller group of people, and hold gross on every car, which, in the long run is better for the brand. and if the buyer won't pay more than I as a dealer need to earn, then go get your bargain, but don't expect any favors from us if your car breaks. I, for one as a salesperson, don't tend to discount cars to people who call from outside my area looking for the best number. If I'm going to discount my car it will be to the folks in my area who have already done business with me, or will become part of my owner body, and refer others. Just my personal method, which has worked well for me.
There has always been a healthy dose of irrationality among some of the car buying public, probably always will be. Wealth and wisdom are still sometimes mutually exclusive. Not among the typical posters here, but in the real world, yes indeed. Also, I think some of the super wealthy either don't have a lot of time to devote to shopping around, and also some tend to be wizards at running businesses, etc., but are fiscally sloppy in their personal lives. Millionares with 500 beacon scores.
I will have to disagree with oac's point that community banks or credit unions can get better deals for consumers than they can get for themselves. In fact, I don't believe that any pre-negotiated credit union deal could approach in discounts what a savvy, opportunistic buyer could negotiate at the end of a slow sales month when the inventories are high.
I suspect there may be a small minority of LS buyers that are stretched just to afford it and an S is beyond their means. However, I believe most folks buy an LS over an S because of its much better value and reliability. The reasons I believe (the small number of) folks buy an S over an LS is because of the 'gotta have it' three pointed star (prestige as stated above) or to a lessor degree a feature not offered on an LS (awd for example).
Your insistence on the higher price of an S over an LS being a major reason for the sales volume difference is weak and getting weaker. Most buyers in this market can afford either car but choose an LS more often for its better value and reliability not because they cannot afford an S.
- Some consumers may not be aware that price differences between dealers can be so large...maybe some of them assume the market is relatively efficient, and so don't bother checking with multiple dealers
- Some consumers may be concerned that if they buy from an out-of-town dealer, they may get inferior service, or no loaner or whatever, when they go to their closest dealer for service
Do Lexus dealerships have fleet departments?
Also do remember some dealers are better at SELLING the product and therefore they get the customer to pay them more for the same product than they would have elsewhere.
Yes. And the price quote you get is almost always lower than if you walk into the showroom to talk to one of the sales person on the floor...
Yes again. Check the dealership website first, if it is not listed, then a simple phone call to the dealership, ask to speak to the Fleet Sales Manager, and that's it. Give him/her the specs of the car/truck you want to purchase, and he will gladly give you a quote either over the phone, or in writing (via e-mail). That simple, at least in my case.
Not every one is that savvy in negotiations, that's when you need someone else who may already have some business relationship with the dealership or certain sales person and can often get the car cheaper than if you walk in. Of course, savvy buyers, and those that have the skills can always do better than the average car buyer.
Most of the cost/benefit or breakeven so-called 'analysis' completely ignores the performance angle.
One is negative on the prospects for diesel in the US, saying that with higher diesel prices here than for gasoline (unlike Europe where tax subsidies make diesel 40% cheaper than gas), and 2006 clean air requirements pushing up costs further, potential diesel drivers will be looking at a 200,000 mile breakeven time.
The other is negative on the prospects for hybrid, saying that high cost of the technology will limit adoption. IMHO, cost does matter, but the performance benefits will make hybrid popular at the luxury end of the market.
After 4 months looking, I got a demo 1 yr old Phaeton that was MSRP stickered low $70's. Knowledge, patience, good timing, a helpful salesman and cash all help make you happy. I could have done a hair better at an auction, but I'm happy!
When my car needs service I expect my warrenty to be serviced by the local dealer who will make a profit on that service...I have never had a problem getting good service locally, No matter where I bought the car.
Perhaps you can post a list of benefits I would get by overpaying for my car. If it makes sense finincially I would buy differently...I value an amiable relationship with anyone I do business with but I am not driven to spend $1000s more then necessary to make a new friend.
I once bought a new Suburu and paid cash...a couple of weeks later I got a call from the dealer telling me that they had made a mistake with the paper work and they were $1800 under their break even correct price, He showed me the paper work of their orginal quote and where they had screwed up in the final transaction ...He said he couldn't legally make me pay...but it was an honest mistake so I sent him a check for $1800 (still had a great deal on the car and it was the right thing to do) got a thank you letter back with a promise to get me a fanastic deal on my next Suburu ...Two years later my son totaled the car...I did not get the fanastic deal promissed on my new Suburu from that dealer and bought somewhere else...The moral of the story is both the dealer and myself are making a business transaction we both should act with integrity but in the end it is just a business transaction and each of us must protect our own interests (in an honorable way, of course.)
It is my understanding High volume dealers make much of their profit on the bonus they are paid based on the number of cars sold...I understand that runs from $600 to $1000 or more per car....
Perhaps people in some professions (like Doctors) are sloppy finincially but the business people I know are not.
You make an excellent point. I think Toyota is cashing in on the "celebrity" of the Hybrid. It's become a popular statement in Hollywood.. It's almost the "in" thing to do, hence the at list or greater pricing. I for one am far more interested in the upcoming MB e320 CDI 4 Matic. I'd rather go with the tried and true design than with something that has been around only a short time. Not to knock the hybrid, but it's been found that the mileage is nothing special in your typical stop and go driving.
I think the negotiation tactics depend on the person. I'm used to playing hardball, it's almost a source of entertainment for me. I've had decent success on most of my Lexus cars. Normally I get about 10% which I'm told is standard. This time I did a little better at 12.5%. The dealer wasn't too happy with the deal, and I still haven't gotten the customary dealer survey. But for me, it makes sense to get the lowest possible price, given the car will depreciate. In MA the Lexus service is pretty uniform at all three main dealers. They all give new ES loaners and are willing to negotiate on the service price as well. I normally get 25% off most of the services. I think the only reason they tolerate me, is because I send both of my Lexus cars to the same dealer to be serviced. Probably my repeat buying doesn't hurt. It's a matter of perspective really. Some may not want the hassle of dealing with the salesman. It's more of a personality thing really.
I see we're back to arguing the S500 vs LS sales figures again..I'd agree with the MB crowd that price does have something to do with it. But I don't know whether it explains the whole story. For me the clincher was reliability, resale value, and whole experience of owning the car...
But the S430 does have a stately design, the MB prestige, and driving dynamics going for it...I was sorely tempted to buy it despite the steep premium they wanted. MB sure knows how design cars that cannot be mistaken for anything else. It just had a different feel to it. My recent experience with shopping MB is pushing me to buy that E320 CDI 4 Matic when it comes out..It's not too harsh on the wallet, looks nice, and is quite practical to boot. Hopefully MB will have resolved most of their electronic issues by then.
SV
The Technology is Japanese...that is tried and true especially when it involves electronic systems ...I would be concerned much more about new German technology.
Personal service. I help arrange their service appointments, prep a loaner, pick up their car if need be. Make sure your wait is as short as possible. We can't afford to pay a crew of extras to do those things, and most of my clients prefer to keep getting help from me after the sale.
Provide a loaner. My store doesn't get a single extra dime from the factory for using cars for loaner purposes. So we pay for upkeep, refueling, washing, and damage and depreciation of those cars, which eventually have to be sold at a loss. Insuring is cheap, but it is another expense as well. If we run out of in-house loaners, we rent a car from the local Enterprise folks, which costs us $30 a day, or pull one of my CPO cars off the used side, which may lose me an opportunity to sell that car. What's the use of providing a service to the vehicle for a profit (which is why we're here), whether paid by the customer or the factory, if that profit is displaced by providing a loaner to someone who spent their money down the street?
Ever kept a car past it's warranty period? On occasion you could drive a few hundred miles past it, or a few days, and have a repair that is no longer covered. If you're my customer, I'm going to call the rep and go to bat to get the repair covered with my "goodwill" account. I have saved many of my customers lots of money this way, rather than just use it as an excuse to sell them a newer car.
-In short, I add value to the car. I am brutally honest about my product, and you will know exactly what you're buying before you sign.
Think of your purchase amount as a pie - a pie cut into three slices. The big one, 87% or so, goes back to the manufacturer. Depending on which state you live in as much as 7% will go to state and local in taxes. The other slice, the dealer's profit margin, in my case 6.9%, is the only variable. When it comes to ownership experience, the factory nor the state or local government is going to be there for you. The selling dealer is, or should be. Yet the "savvy consumer" comes in ready to go 15 rounds to make that slice as small as possible, but sets the bar of expectations sky high, in exchange for that tiny slice.
Of course those buying in large, hyper competitive markets, which perhaps includes you, have a different game to play, so maybe little or nothing of what I say has meaning.
Nowadays everyone knows about the term "holdback," and about volume bonuses. Mercedes takes care of us if we maintain an ideal CSI score, which we proudly do. Our customers are among the happiest in the region, and we deserve to be compensated for that. Holdback is NOT net profit. Holdback is not net profit...If every car in my inventory sold the day it came off the truck, it would be, but that is not nearly true. If I am compelled to sell a car near cost, then I get a very minimum commission, the rest of the monies the dealer receives are absorbed in the cost of doing business, just like anywhere else.
All this time I thought you had a LS430, the LS I was referring to.
M
Secondly I don't disagree that most buyers might see the LS as a better value because in most peoples mind value = cheaper. Some might see value in getting a car unique to them or something in higher priced cars that the cheaper doesn't offer.
M
Not yet. But my '99 LS is long overdue for a change after 100K+ miles on the odo.... The plan is to upgrade to the MY2007 LS460. At least there won't be any insinuation that the new LS will resemble any MB known to man
Probably not and it would be about time. I'm guessing a larger GS/IS look, if that looks good to you. The GS doesn't, but IS does imo.
M
That has not been my experience with Lexus...When I bought my LS 430 Ultra (they are very hard to find)...I saved several $1000 by traveling from seattle to LA to get the car ...the dealer had the car prepped and ready to go, they picked my wife and I up at the airport bought us lunch spent all the time we wanted with the car and it's features...Made a couple of changes to the open and close settings (I can't remember the other changes)
We stayed in LA for 3 or 4 days and discovered there was a blmeish we discovered on the drivers seat...They brought their leather guy in on a Saturday to fix it for us because we were headed to Arazona the next day...
When we got back to Seattle ...I chose the closest of the 3 Dealers in the area and I have used them for the little service I have needed...(A rock broke the Lazor Cruse unit and that was replaced and I drove over a Parking thing and broke the headlight wipers feed line) Both were paid by insurance.
I get Loaners whenever I go in ...Usually SUVs.
I am assigned a Service tech so don't need a salesman to arrange my appointments....My car goes in immidately and the problem is looked at and I am told when to bring the car back if a part is needed and how long the fix will take. They even will help with the insurance if I want...and they give me the appropriate forms for the insurance company...Or will fax them directly to the company if I wish.
I don't have to worry about going past the service date by a few 1000 miles or a month or two past...Lexus fixes it without hassel (or would if I ever had that kind of problem which I actually haven't)
Taxes on every car I have ever purchased are on top of the sales price...The lower the SALES price the lower the taxes...I don't understand what you are trying to say....The sticker price generally will represent 12-15% Markup for the Dealer...
Volume Dealers survive on that Unit price bonus for volume sales...Your dealership takes a different approach apparently... It is my understanding most dealers make a significent protion of their profit in the Service dept. OR maybe Lexus is just totally different from other dealers.
I'd bet that there is in fact specific data to demonstrate my (or much less likely your) point but it is not readily available to the public. (I did a google search and turned up some interesting, if not entirely specific, income data for high level car brand buyers published in Newsweek and listed it above.) I am certain that Toyota, Mercedes and the like research their product price points and their customers incomes very, very carefully. They will milk their cows for as much as they can.
You do a discredit to "most consumers" of high end luxury cars by discounting their ability to distinguish value from cheaper. I believe that most consumers that can afford a $65K or costlier car did not obtain the means to do so by said ignorance. Your love sick admiration for Mercedes blinds you just as it has blinded many in the car industry itself. Currently overall, Lexus does the LS better for most consumers than Mercedes does the S. The proof is common sense. The LS sells better because of it and not simply due to a lower price. The pudding will be when the '07 LS prices are closer to the S and the LS will still trounce the S in volume sales.
For the record, I have owned and like Mercedes vehicles and hope the (evolving) whippin' they are getting will motivate them to do better (unlike GM so far).
What is the current sales volume of the LS in Europe?
I'd LOVE to have 12-15% profit margins! Then I too could discount thousands, and still make a good living.
I've picked up plenty of people at the airport, bought their lunch, etc. as well. It's all in a days work.
Otherwise, it sounds like you live in a pretty perfect world, and for pennies on the dollar. Good for you.
So in other words there is no data for you and I to look at then.
"You do a discredit to "most consumers" of high end luxury cars by discounting their ability to distinguish value from cheaper. I believe that most consumers that can afford a $65K or costlier car did not obtain the means to do so by said ignorance. Your love sick admiration for Mercedes blinds you just as it has blinded many in the car industry itself. Currently overall, Lexus does the LS better for most consumers than Mercedes does the S. The proof is common sense. The LS sells better because of it and not simply due to a lower price. The pudding will be when the '07 LS prices are closer to the S and the LS will still trounce the S in volume sales."
You keep saying that I stated that price was the sole reason for the LS outselling the S, and I didn't. I said it was but one factor. How major is open for discussion, but to blindly think that every consumer can just buy up on a whim is the "ignorance" imo. What the hell does a blind devotion (IYO, btw) have to do with a price debate? Until the LS sells at the same price level as the S I couldn't care less if it outsells the S. Closer to S prices and that same price are two different things and no Lexus is going to match the upper end S-Class models in price anyway, they know better than that. Price has been since day one, a main Lexus' main selling point over Mercedes. That seems to have been forgotten here.
M
M
"The new M5 goes to 60 in under 4."
Are there any tests to confirm this?
You are quite adept at using quotes of others to rebut. Please quote me in saying you find price was the sole reason.
Blind devotion misdirects many a man in many ways Merc. Yet again it has happened to you as you incessantly insist on mixing up value and price. You fail to consider that if an LS430 were the same price as an S430, more LS's would still be sold. Lack of reliability would be at the top of the list to actually avoid an S currently.
What was your spin on the May Road and Track issue and how the S500 placed (5th)last in the Lux sedan comparison. Reliability was not even a factor! Why was the LS excluded?
The data you presented said what? What the average income for a Mercedes owner was? Means absolutely nothing imo because the average Mercedes owner doesn't have an S-Class. They probably have an C,E,ML, or something else less expensive in the line. I'm basing my point about price on common sense about a car being 14-20K more expensive and that it might be at a slight disadvantage in a sales race.
Yet again it has happened to you as you incessantly insist on mixing up value and price. You fail to consider that if an LS430 were the same price as an S430, more LS's would still be sold. Lack of reliability would be at the top of the list to actually avoid an S currently.
You have know way of knowing what the LS would sell at S-Class prices. Why should anyone consider such a thing, its a classic "what if" scenario. You want me to consider that, but yet you won't consider that some buyers might be priced out of a car like an S-Class? Doesn't work that way. Lack of relibility would be at the top of YOUR list. You can't speak for everyone else. Now value is seperate from price? That is hilarious. Talk about a "spin". The price difference between two cars compared to what you get is the "value" in a lot of peoples minds. They are closely linked.
You on the other hand have simply overlooked one Lexus' main selling points when it comes to Mercedes. Price!
What was your spin on the May Road and Track issue and how the S500 placed (5th)last in the Lux sedan comparison. Reliability was not even a factor! Why was the LS excluded?
There is no spin needed, the S500 got beat plain and simple. Ask Road and Track why the LS was excluded.
The LS sells better because of it and not simply due to a lower price.
To me that implies that you think I said that price was simply the reason for greater sales. For the fifth time I said it was a factor, a factor.
M
As I said above, consider it because it is going to happen in 2007. You use/'blame' the lessor sales numbers of the S on its higher price making it unobtainable as a result. For the fifth time I said it was a factor, a factor. What will you blame when the price is not a 'factor'?
You want me to consider that, but yet you won't consider that some buyers might be priced out of a car like an S-Class?
Check message # 9166 above Merc. "I suspect there may be a small minority of LS buyers that are stretched just to afford it and an S is beyond their means."
Lack of reliability would be at the top of YOUR list. You can't speak for everyone else.
Never presume to speak for everyone but I speak from personal experience and experience from friends/family and from reviewing these and other boards with numerous Merc reliability complaints. Its no secret even to those blinded with admiration.
The price difference between two cars compared to what you get is the "value" in a lot of peoples minds.
Value is intrinsic to the car itself not related to 'the price difference between two cars'. I do not understand what you are trying to distinguish here Merc perhaps this is where we run afoul.
There is no spin needed, the S500 got beat plain and simple. Ask Road and Track why the LS was excluded.
I did email them and will share their response with this forum if a similar response is not published in their June issue.
Why not just tell us now?
I have never seen it done any other way....I have always bought and not leased my cars...but even a leased vehicle is priced from the sticker and sales taxes etc are added on top of that....when you bargin the price down it is down from the sticker price and you may indeed only get 6% or even less...then the taxes are added on top of that....then the dealer get his bonus (whatever you call it ) for volume from Mercedes at the end of the year.
I live in the real world...Lexus dealers are known for their service ...that service is expected by Lexus owners......It would be helpfull if Mercedes operated in the same manner, however I do understand you have to cut someplace when the profits are just not there.
It is not lost on me that Toyota and Daimler have different ways of marketing their product, as well as different ways of rewarding the dealers for getting said product on the road. Us trading barbs about how it should work is pointless.
It is also not lost on me that our usefullness as salesman of cars is quickly growing extinct, and that the momentum to make us all but history is picking up speed, especially in the bigger markets, where there's a dealer on almost every corner, and the internet makes everyone believe they know everything. I'll move on soon, hopefully on my terms. I've been building furniture for 14 years now, and this may be the time for me to think about the little shop I've thought about having. Who knows? I've grown weary of people deeply resenting the profit I wish to make, but don't hesitate to pick up the phone when there's a problem.
Just curious, since you're an LS owner, somebody somewhere is paying you very well. What do you do for a living, if you don't mind my asking?
Thx
http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2005/04/29/053405.html
As a result, there many reasons for the variation in these quotes. Two new ideas not so far discussed involve how the quotes were solicited and timing. To say that there is significant variation in these quotes, there would have to be a consistent method of getting them. Perhaps your negotiating ability, personal mannerisms, zip code, etc. affected different dealership people differently and in order to maximize the profit, they quoted differently? To conjure up an example, a bearded guy in a tweed jacket with leather elbow patches with a 14850 zip code, everything else being equal, would get a better price in Ithaca than Queens, NY.
Timing is also important. Maybe you collected your quotes at different times of the week and of the month? Maybe some of these dealers at that point in time had excess inventory? Or were expecting in a big stock order? Or, need cash to pay taxes?
On a related subject, Stroudman, you're a good guy. You have the kind of values that appeal to me. You and your store are the kind of people I would rather do business with. As long as you would take care of me, you would have a customer for life. You must offer the level of service like a nice men's store such as Paul Stewarts or (the old) Brooks Bros. But, as I write this there is a little bit of a contradiction. I'm wearing a Lands End shirt and a pair of Bills Khakis. They were both bought on line because even though I like the experience of a good men's shop and claim to be a loyal kind of guy, you can't beat a $29 blue oxford button down from a catalog house. Warranty? You call LL Bean or Land's End and they come pick it up! Maybe an 800 number trumps my "loyalty"?