Geez, just when I had it narrowed down to two 5 speeds A4s, I have to read this stuff about clutches! Haven't driven manual in almost 20 yr but seemed to adapt OK on my test drives... though concerned about driving in traffic, shifting, etc... the cost saving and better gas mileage make me think that is the way to go, though resale might not be as good.
Anyway, had ruled out the automatics since they don't seem to have the "pep" of the 5 speeds and notice a hesitation when it shifts gears. The 5 speed seems so much soother and assume it will get better as I get more practice shifting!
So.... have a choice of 2 A4s: both 5 speeds, both can be gotten for around $25K, one (mŽlange)has the dose system and xenon lights, the other (cactus green - kind grows on you) has the Celebration package and sport package.
Any input would be appreciated. Not much on sunroofs but seems a shame to have an A4 w/o one. Sport package: how will it impact my driving, tires, etc? Discernible difference in the 2 stereo systems? Have heard good things about xenon lights - are they reliable (don't burn out fast)?
Told the dealer would decide on Mon. FWIW, I live in San Antonio.....and have been driving Volvos for 18 yrs.....
Don-- nah, the clutch issue is very minor to me! And I think on an Audi, the resale value could be even more with a manual because they are a lot scarcer and more in demand; here in the NW, anyway. I have to believe that most A4 owners are more "driving enthusiasts" than most and consequently would desire a 5-speed manual than an automatic. Most of us on this board will agree that a 5-speed is MUCH more satisfying to drive than the Tiptronic especially with the 1.8t. Maybe the clutch doesn't engage from a standing start as smoothly as the ones in my Toyotas but let me tell you, the A4 is definitely the most fun car to drive than any I've ever owned ...with the Scirocco coming in a close second, lol. I too considered an S60 but it just didn't seem as spirited as the A4 and since I don't have the need to transport kids or people in general, the restricted room (specifically the rear seat leg room) didn't matter to me. The S60 was thousands more and IMO, just didn't represent the value that the A4 did. Plus, I even got Quattro and was able to keep it under 30k on top of it all! I noticed that you were discussing the reliability of the two over on the S60 forum. Believe me, I considered that too and in all my research, concluded that the A4 would be more trouble free in the long run. As I've said many times before, I'm really impressed with the 1.8t engine. It has just that certain "character" that just amazes me sometimes! And remember, 2 other factors about that engine that should contribute to its long-term reliability and relatively low cost maintenance: 1) it is a two time winner in the Wards "10 best engines" list and 2) it has been used across the VW/Audi product line for many years now. That translates IMO into more (and maybe less expensive) parts and service knowledge for many years to come. Granted, it still has an iron block but its low pressure turbo and 5-valve technology just gives it a certain technological edge. A quote from Wards comes to mind: "The presence of the Audi 1.8L demonstrates, to our minds, a clear divide regarding the recent state-of-the-art in turbocharging "philosophy." We continue to favor the light-pressure approach, in vogue with VW/Audi; meanwhile, the big-nozzle turbos now favored by AB Saab and Volvo Car Corp., although capable of producing great horsepower numbers, are not nearly as satisfying to use in everyday driving. Saab, in particular, has disappointed by largely abandoning its excellent light-pressure turbo efforts of the mid 90s." ...from http://www.wardsauto.com/be2001/engines.php3#a
Well, I guess you can see that I really love the 1.8t engine, lol... but as far as the choices you mentioned, hmmmmmm... yeah, it's a tough choice. I'd have to believe that the one with the Bose and Xenons will have either the Premium package (left-over 2001.0) or the Celebration package (2001.5) so you'll get the sunroof no matter what ...and believe me, it's one slick sunroof; the controls can't be beat! As you might know from looking at my profile, I have Bose and Xenons but no Sport package and everyone who's been reading my posts knows that I regret not getting the Sports pkg. I've come to love the Xenons but Bose IMO is not worth the cost the Audi is charging. So with that said, I'd have to recommend the catus green (nice color, btw) with the Sport package. Having the celebration package means that it is a 2001.5 and has not been sitting around the dealer's lot as long as the one without it.
So anyway, Don, I'll give you more impressions on the Sport package issue (and I'm assuming that others will contriubte to that discussion too, lol) if you need it but let me just say, IT'S WORTH THE MONEY. I'm assuming you are not looking at Quattro models and since you are in TX, you don't have the worry of changing rims/tires over in the winter. Let us know if you have any more questions and good luck!
Appreciate the input! You and I think alike about the S60 vs A4. Never thought I'd say I'd prefer something over a Volvo but really feel their product has slipped the past few yrs since they tried to be like the other cars re: body style, etc. Reliability has become much more of an issue too. Aligning w/Ford did NOT help either!
The melange has only a few miles (6 when I test drove it yesterday) on it (not sure if 2001 or 2001.5) but no sunroof which is a rarity - only the 2nd one I've seen at the dealer, other one was a CX'd order. Personally, I wouldn't pay extra for the Bose system either but it's there. Yes, the cactus green (80 miles on itand a 2001.5) is growing on me after seeing it the past 2 days - dealer got it in a "trade" with another dealer. Only quattro models here are automatic and are loaded - more than I care to spend (test drove one today - def not as perky as 5 speed). However, if there was one w/manual I might consider it. For $25K I think either will be a good deal - nice that I have a choice. Only other colors here are blue and black which I would never get or automatic.
Don-- You're right, a Quattro is definitely not going to feel as "perky" as the fwd model. Huh, it surprises me that the melange doesn't have a sunroof. It's definitely an '01.0 then because all '01.5's will have the Celebration package which includes the sunroof. Yeah, too bad the cactus green doesn't have the Xenons; it would be perfect then :-P
Volvo's aligning with Ford was definitely disappointing along with the Saab and GM marriage. There was a funny post over on AW a few months ago that I posted here before but I'll post it again... I had to laugh, it's about Audi merging with Cadillac: CONFIRMED! VW sells Audi to Cadillac
Yup Scirocco already summarized everything.....one thing I'd like to add is, you can also check whether or not it's a 2001.0 or 2001.5 by looking at the label on the driver's side lower door frame. It will have a build date there, like "11 00" or "02 01". If it's "11 00" (Nov 2000) or later, it should be a 2001.5. Hey Scirocco, I don't know ALL 2001.5 come with the Celebration pkg.....well gotta say that the pkg is only available with Quattro equipped cars.....
Yeah Bose is nice, but not THE thing to have. I'd take Xenon for sure, Convenience pkg for sure, Quattro for sure, Sports pkg if I were you living in TX, and that's about it.
Billy-- My dealer explained it that way to me... that all '01.5's will have the Celebration package. But that isn't necessarily true, eh?? But I know for SURE that both FrontTraks (fwd) and Quattros can have the Celebration package (we'll just say: on the models with the latest build-dates, anyway) ...with the exact same features on both models: "Includes glass sunroof with power, tilt, slide, "Pre-Select"; auto dimming inside and outside rearview mirrors and Homelink remote transmitter."
1.8TQ Tip Celebration package Sport seats (but not sport suspension 'cause I didn't wanna hassle with changing tires for snowy weather) Light silver/onyx cloth interior
Stuff I wish I wouldda gotten, in retrospect: ESP and cold-weather package.
Didn't get Xenons 'cause I live in a hilly area and have heard that they're not well-suited for that kind of terrain. Didn't get Bose 'cause I heard it's not worth the extra $$$.
Really hope I don't regret having gotten the Tip. I love driving manuals -- always have driven them -- but opted for the Tiptronic for two reasons: foot problems (screwed-up bone alignment gets painful when I have to depress a clutch in traffic, and Tip seemed less expensive than surgery!) and needed a car I could loan to my parents, who can't drive a stick.
First impressions:
It's really frustrating not to be able to goose this thing during the break-in period. When I test-drove the 1.8T automatic, I was surprised at how responsive it seemed. Now I wanna see what this new car can do, but that's gonna have to wait. Oh well.
Also: am really impressed at how solid this thing seems. I've read that the 2002 models will have greater body rigidity, and I'm thinking: how -- pour concrete over it? Fit and finish seem superb too. Also, it's so nice to have a car that I can see out of well (I'm 5'1"). But Scirocco, you're right about the B pillar causing a bit of a blockage. Am gonna have to experiment with the seat position a little bit to try to work around that.
One surprise: The fabric in the cloth upholstery is unlike any other upholstery fabric I've seen. It seems very durable but is definitely a synthetic -- none of the soft, "veloury" fabric that you find in many near-lux cars. On a scale of 1 to 10, it ranks 10 in sportiness, 0 in luxury. This isn't a criticism, just a surprise. Dealer didn't have cloth seats on the lot, so I knew this would be a bit of a crapshoot when I ordered them. Really like the configuration and support of the sport seats, though.
Handling is great. Now I've just gotta figure out what all the bells and whistles will do!
I'd have to second (or is that third) the vote to go with the celebration plus sport package. My impression of the sport package was that it improved handling and feel with very little sacrifice to comfort (and those wheels and performance tires look very cool!). I wouldn't be concerned about the clutch - it's just a matter of getting used to it.
I had to LOL when I read the comment about 'zooming like a rocket' from a complete stop. I have spent the first 10k miles on my 2001 A4 1.8TQS trying to be consistent when starting-from-stop. It comforts me to know that I am not the only one. I owned a Honda previously and the clutch engaged almost immediately. Actually, I didn't get rid of the Honda right away and would only drive it once a month or so. I would almost stall it out everytime b/c the clutch was so different from the Audi. Anyway, the clutch situation is a minimal hassle that doesn't make a dent in my overall impression of the car.
It kicks total [non-permissible content removed]. 'Nuff said.
Karen-- CONGRATULATIONS!! ...it seems like you've been waiting *forever* --I'm so happy for you! If you remember our discussions on this board from long ago about the break-in period, I still don't really agree that you have to "baby" it THAT much during the first 1,000 miles. Just don't give it full-throttle or rev it over 4,500 rpm for prolonged periods (or pull trailers or lug the engine rpms... you know, anything similar that would put undue stress on the new engine). Another thing that I consider equally important is not to rev the engine too high when it's cold. Normal operating temperature for most engines, including ours, is around 210 degrees F. We are lucky in that we have that indispensable (IMO) oil temperature gauge which will tell you when the engine is warmed to its "safe" operating temperature. Mine comes to a rest at just about (what appears to be on a gauge with few hash marks) a 210 degree reading. Of course, this rule not only applies to the break-in period but at anytime to any car. We are just "lucky" that we have that gauge included as stock in our cars. OT: I'm having an oil temperature gauge installed in the Forester as part of a gauge pack. btw, I still haven't taken delivery yet, lol. So anyway, back to break-in: I know that others will disagree but after talking with many "experts" in the field of engines, they all concur that break-in rules for modern engines have changed quite-a-bit from 30-40 years ago when break-in was especially important. The important thing, IMO, is that the engine (while fully warmed!) experience as many operating rpm's as possible. We all know that a new engine shouldn't be operated at steady rpm's for prolonged periods but contrary to most peoples opinions, a new engine should experience bursts of relatively high rpms during break-in. So bottom line, IMHO, don't be afraid to give it (if you feel inclined) a spirited burst of acceleration (not full-throttle, though) every once in awhile during break-in (remember, my dealer told me not to be afraid to rev it right up to the red-line but I didn't quite go that far --and still haven't yet ...finally broke the 1K mark a few days ago, lol).
Yes, I'm also impressed with it's "solidity" ...but what I'm hearing from those in Europe (from the VWVortex and AW boards) that already have been driving the 2002 model, the "new" body is far superior in terms of rigidity and solidity, etc. ...so lol@your comment about "concrete!" yah, so the '02 must be "really" impressive then! But I agree, after owning so many Japaneses cars, there's just something unique about the Audi's fit and finish. And about that right side blind spot: I think that adjusting the position of the passenger seat helps. I'm finding that it's the passenger seat head-rest that's doing most of the blocking.
I'm glad that the cloth seats weren't a real big disappointment. I was wondering what your impression was going to be. I'm glad it's a relatively positive one! Now, it isn't the "sport" seat option, is it? --oh wait, it is, I just noticed that you posted that! Great! I saw those seats at the dealer and would have opted for them if I had ordered the car too!
Oh man, yah, bells and whistles! How many of us have really used both "speed alarms" anyway, lol?! I've just set one of them to about 65 mph because I do most of my driving (so far) only on the freeways within the metropolitan area which have a speed limit of 60 mph. And impress your friends or maybe even yourself, lol, by going through the driver information display check! ...I know I was impressed the first time I tried it!
Again, congratulations, Karen and keep us posted on your further impressions! oh, btw, it's ok to let your parents drive it but just keep it away from hubby until you pass the 1K mark, lol ;-)
Dennis, Mark and Mike-- Thanx for the input on the clutch engagement. I really feel better about it now! At first I thought it might be a "defect" on my particular car ...that I couldn't get a buttery smooth start from a stop. Now I know it's just the way it's designed and realize that I can't compare it with the ultra-smooth operation of a Honda or a Toyota clutch.
equalizer2 posted a message about aftermarket wood trim for the A4. The web site he referred to (Joshuatree.com) didn't have anything to do with Audi or aftermarket parts (it's a site for a computer consultant). Does anyone know the correct url or know of a site that sells wood trim?
Hey, Rocco, thanks for the info re. break-in/oil temp/etc. I thought the owner's manual could have been a little more specific -- for instance, about rpms or oil temperature -- so thanks a bunch for the feedback.
BTW, I started my own business -- based out of my home -- three years ago, and for the past three years I've loved working at home and having clients' projects delivered to me there. It was so nice not to have to bother with a commute anymore. But -- lol -- this new A4 is almost enough to make me wish I had a regular job to drive to again! Almost....!
Mark and Marion-- Just looked at that Joshua site. I'm impressed! Marion, I'd disregard those other sites. Woodtrim.com appears far superior to those other two!
It seems that most of you own the 1.8 versus the 2.8. I drove both, the 2.8 is obviously smoother, but performance is about equal. Any suggestions on which one to buy? Pros vs. cons? I'm in the leasing process and don't know if it's worth the extra money for the 2.8. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks!
I just leased a 1.8T and couldn't be happier. The only two considerations I can think of are: 1. the 2.8 costs more and 2. You can't get real leather or wood trim on the 1.8T.
I didn't care about wood or leather (the leatherette looks good to me), so I got the 1.8T and saved myself some money. I think the 1.8 is more fun to drive, anyways (as long as you get a manual tranny).
Hey folks. I actually have a 2001 S4 (Light Silver w/Silver leather and 6-speed), but this question also applies to A4 owners with 17" wheels. I'm wrestling with whether or not to go down to 16" wheels & tires for winter, or stay with 17's. Naturally, I'd prefer to stay with 17's 'cause they look (and handle) soooo sweet, but I've heard that 16's are better in the snow. I'm planning on buying 4 Michelin Pilot Alpins (high performance snow tires). I live in the northeast where there is a fair amount of snow, but usually, the roads are pretty well plowed. I don't need the thing to be like a Jeep in the snow, just provide adequate traction. Anybody out there run 17's with winter tires, with acceptable results? Thanks!
I have a 2.8 and prefer it to the 1.8T. The 2.8 has more power and is smoother, and I think is better matched with the extra weight of the quattro than an UNmodified 1.8T. I had a Passat with the same 2.8 engine and really liked it! When I test drove a 1.8T Quattro it just felt underpowered to me, especially getting up to speed. If you don't plan on modifying the 1.8T (some people will alter the electronics to increase hp), and choose to go with the smaller engine, as Mike said make sure you get a manual as it is pretty slow with the automatic. In addition to leather and wood trim that Mike mentioned, the 2.8 also comes with power front seats. This is also not a huge issue for most people, but I confess that I really like the power seats and the leather. You can check Audiworld.com and do a search on this topic for some other opinions. This is one that really comes down to personal preference and I don't think you can really go wrong!
I just came back from a local gathering yesterday and I was the only A4 there with 7 or 8 other S4's.....one owner was very satisfied with the 17" Dunlop SP® Winter Sport M2. For summer performance tires he uses Potenza S03 Pole Position tires.....he commented that the difference is day and night. He was also very satisfied with the Winter Sport performance in the winter.
Of course if you go down to 16" there're lots of winter tires to choose from, and maybe in the long run it's better than 17", but if you insist on the looks of 17" snow tires, the Winter Sports are the best to go.
I agree with everything mgmyers said. I own the 2.8, and like all the extras it comes with, but I think the biggest thing that swayed me to the 2.8 was that it had a naturally aspirated engine. I was a little afraid to buy a turbo, although it seems to be pretty reliable according to the enthusiasts on Audiworld.
Hi Jack, another Jack here. I just leased a 1.8T last month because that's the one I wanted. However, if I remember right, there were better lease incentives (lower rate, higher residual) on the 2.8, at least in my area, due to slower moving supply. If that's the case, then the monthly payment difference may not be dramatic, and the 2.8 definitely comes better equipped. Since you found performance to be similar, I guess it's how much more will you pay each month for the extras included on the 2.8.
There's something about feeling that turbo, though!
Me thinks that I MAY have slightly offended Equals and Mark (and maybe even others, lol) when expressing my "love" of the 1.8t engine in post #1451. Sorry about that, didn't realize when I posted it that there were participants here that may have been equally in love with their 2.8's ...my apologies!
Jack-- First of all, welcome! And yes, you are right about 2.8's being slower movers and consequently may have better incentives offered. I can't really comment too much about lease rates because I'm not a "leaser" or for that mattter "a monthly payment person" period --I despise the idea of taking out a loan on a depreciating asset but that's an entirely different topic, lol! But as we have discussed before, a lot of people that consider the 2.8 (for the extra 4-5k), usually start looking more closely at Bimmers for the value gap now starts to get smaller. IMHO, the A4 with the 1.8t reprsents value that's hard to beat. I test drove both the 2.8 in the A4 and the Passat (each with 5-speeds) and didn't find them as satisfying as the 1.8t. The flat torque curve of the 1.8t with its low pressure turbo just gives it that certain "character" that, yes, there's just "something" about, lol. ooops, here I go again... I better stop now! ...sorry all:-P
I am a new owner of a 1.8Q with the 17 inch wheels. Is it really necessary to change into snow tires? I live in Milwaukee, so weather is definitely a factor. But with the Q, I just don't see snow being a big issue, even with sport tires. Am I wrong?
I have the 2.8Q and confess that at the time (in the spring of 1998) I was looking for a little more luxury than the 1.8T provided. I wanted the leather, the wood, the power seat, etc. Plus at that time the 1.8T was only 150 HP vs. today's 170HP, so there was a much greater power difference then, too. However if I were to buy "today" I think I would either go the route of the cheaper 1.8T or all the way to the S4, which was not available to me as an option in 1998 (and knowing me, I think I would have paid up for the extra HP if it had been available!).
Anyway, since having purchased our 2001 allroad I must confess that the extra power of the 2.7T engine has become very intoxicating, and actually makes the 2.8 engine feel lethargic by comparision, unless you let the revs climb well into its power band. I realize that there is about a $15,000 difference between the 1.8T (fairly loaded) and a "base" S4 (which comes very loaded) but such is the price of performance - that 2.7T engine really moves. Since three years ago the A4 2.8's pecking order seems to have been somewhat squeezed by the increased power of the 1.8T and the availability of much greater power of the S4, which is available today at a price that's less than $5,000 more than what I paid for a loaded A4 more than 3 years ago! (A4's were in very short supply at the time, and MSRP prices were the norm).
These are ALL great cars, but arguably for most people "on a budget" the 1.8T (with a stick) delivers the most bang for the buck. For the more luxury-oriented folks where performance is not as much of a factor, some great buys can now be found on the A4 2.8. But if I were in the market right now and I was looking seriously at the 2.8, I think I would try to hold off until fall when I could then hopefully test-drive the 3.0 and a leftover 2.8 back-to-back, and then make my decision.
Scirocco, absolutely no offense taken - I think it's very telling that the A4 evokes so much passion from its' owners! I would have seriously considered the 1.8T if I were interested in modifying the hp (my wife was quite firm about that NOT being an option, lol)
Joel, I agree with your points. In my case I did not want to wait for the 2002 because I prefer the current body style and the smaller size, and I know from my Passat that the engine would be plenty satisfying. The S4 was a bit out of reach for me at this point, but I was happy to "splurge" for the other creature comforts. Bottom line is I'm really enjoying my A4! Mark
Joel-- Most definitely! ...forget the 2.8 or the 3.0 and give me the 2.7t anyday! Along with the 1.8t, the 2.7t is also on the Ward's "10 best engines list." I always thought that my next step would be to a Bimmer but I'd definitely (if I were trading in today) go with the A6 2.7t. It's not a whole lot more $$$ and almost matches the performance numbers of the S4. The pics that I've seen of the new '02 A6 are impressive to me. IMO, they've "squared off" the *blob* rounded look of the current model and made it much more chic looking. To quote from an excerpt of the Ward's article:
"...But folks, this engine just storms. All 258 lb.-ft. (350 Nm) of torque is there for your exploitation by the time this V-6 measures off 1,850 rpm; never mind that in terms of specific output the 93 hp/L also places this unit firmly in the upper strata of current production engines. Pair that output with Audi's ridiculously enjoyable 6-speed manual transmission and 60 mph (97 km/h) in an A6 sedan rolls up in 6 seconds flat.
Choose a gear--just about any of the available six will do --step on the minutely responsive throttle and that monstrous wave of torque blows the car past lesser-engined conveyances with majestic aplomb. With that sort of thrust, we don't need no stinking V-8s!
Considering the contemporary state of V-8 development, you won't get anywhere near the Audi 2.7L V-6's techno package, anyway. Although we tested the 2.7L/6-speed driveline in the new (and quite good, by the way) A6-based allroad quasi-SUV, the "regular" A6 sedan/wagon also is available with Audi's engaging 4.2L DOHC V-8 --and the fact remains that we deeply prefer the twin-turbo V-6. To our way of thinking, the 2.7L twin-turbo V-6 is the perfect engine to promote what Audis are supposed to be."
The only question for me is which package to get it in.
Currently, I'd love an S4 Avant with the manual tranny. But I doubt they will still be making it in 3 years when my lease is up. Hopefully the new S4 will be out by then so I can choose (but I do think I'd want the Avant - so much practicality for so little penalty).
hopefully in 3 yrs Audi is going to introduce the next S4.....rumors have it that it might be a V or W8.....but then it might not be a turbocharged, so I don't know how fun it can be. Of course it might be heavier in the front end too. Now that I also like the supercharged biturbo V6, I can't forget to mention the straight six Bimmer M3 that can make 333hp out of a normally aspirated engine. Pending on the longevity of the turbo on our A4's and the turbos on the S4's, if they take too much $$ to maintain, I have no choice but to switch back to normally aspirated cars.
Oh, don't even try to drive in the snow with the high performance sports tires. It's just plain too dangerous.
I drove a Subaru WRX sedan today. It delivered a far better ride than what I was expecting. I did not really open it up since it was only a test drive and one should not exceed 4000 rpm for the first 1000 miles. I drove the Audi dealership (closed) afterwards and looked around the lot. The Subaru salesman told me that they only sell the WRX at MSRP. My thinking is that at that price, it really does approach a fairly well equiped 1.8T Quattro w/Sport. No doubt that Audi is a great looking car. I've been holding off for a 2002 model, (more rear leg room and improved suspension, rigidity from what I've read on this board). I do not think that I want to spend the extra $$$ for a 3.0 engine, since it will be in the same range as a 2.8, so it will be 1.8T for me. But I need some opinions.... Will the 1.8T "feel" noticeably underpowered compared to the WRX I just drove? If I decide to go with a 2001 model (have a feeling that dealers will be more amenable to making deals this time of year), how much should I expect off MSRP.... and would a 2.8 be superior to a 1.8T. BTW I prefer manual transmission. I need to make a decison soon or risk losing the window of either ordering a 2002 (Oct/Nov delivery) or getting a deal on a 2001. Any good web sites that have user reviews of 2002. Thanks in advance for your help.
Clay-- yah, I agree with Billy--you are wrong, lol. Even with Quattro, you'll find that performance tires will be awful on snow and ice.
D.J.-- No offense but "duh" ...yes, the 1.8t in its stock form will "feel" underpowered compared with a WRX, lol. And a 2.8 superior to a 1.8t?? well, you know my opinion on that :-P --I don't know where you are located but here in the NW, there are very few new 1.8t with 5-speed manuals left so you wouldn't get too much of a price break on a manual as you would on a Tip.
hmmm, Edmunds won't let me post a url that's more than 115 characters. For Yahoo memebers, go to this page and click on the link that JoeO posted to see his photo album of 116 pictures of the 2002 A4: http://forums.vwvortex.com/vwbb/Forum26/HTML/001602.html
Well, the M3 is really my dream car, but I don't know if I could drop AWD altogether. That's why the S4 is so appealing to me. Great performance (albeit not M3 performance), and it costs $15k less OTD. And you'd need snows for both, so that's a wash. That and as of now, you can't even get the M3 with 4 doors.
I would hate to see the S4 go to a V or W8. Too much weight up front (on a car that already has a roughly 55/45 front weight bias).
I know i may be frowned upon after this post, but here goes. I currently own a tt coupe. My wife's lease is just about up and we want to get back into an awd car-(the tt is fwd). My previous car was a 97 a4 1.8t quattro. I've driven the current model with 170 hp and had my car modified (stage 1 chip, good for about 45 hp). I realize the a4, even in 1.8 form, is a solid well-made rock of a car, better than anything Japanese. However, while visiting my local Audi dealer recently, the salesman had just received delivery of a wrx 5 speed, (it is a porsche-audi subaru dealer. After driving the car for about 15 minutes, i can tell you the car was awesome. The handling, acceleration and fun factor was superior to the a4. That beig said, i almost leased another a4, since it has a great warranty, but decided to purchase the wrx-delivery expected in august. Anyone considering an a4 1.8 should consider a wrx, although i admit they are far less luxurious and solid.
I don't think anyone would even attempt to disagree that the WRX is a far superior performer to the A4 - it is. But where I personally found the WRX lacking is in the luxury and looks departments. There is no luxury like in the A4 and I don't like the way it looks.
Just decide what is more important to you - a great performer with blah looks and interior (IMO), or a good performer with great looks and interior.
Just drive them both, look at them both, and decide for yourself.
BTW, if you are leasing, my A4 lease payment is less than my payment would have been even though the A4 costs about $3-5k more, due to Audi's subsidized lease rates.
The lease rates on the a4 1.8 t are great. That is why I would have leased the a4 if i hadn't purchased the wrx. The lease on an a4 1.8 quattro w/sport package was less than a lease on a wrx. However, the a4 1.8 was still too expensive to buy, even with a discount. I purchased the wrx for 22,500.
$22,500 is a great deal. Dealers in Denver werent' willing to discount from MSRP at all when I was looking. So it was $24k plus all options at MSRP. Would have cost me about $25-26k with the options I wanted. My A4 came in just under $29k.
Well I think I posted this comparison like 500 posts before (LOL) right after I test drove the WRX 2 months ago maybe?? Anyhow I agree with people who have posted.....it totally lacks the luxury and looks. The engine, however, sounds sweeeeeeeeet. Power comes out from nowhere, although the turbo comes on slightly later than the 1.8T. That said, I think it's not fair to compare the two. The WRX past life was a rally car, that's enough said.....of course it's going to focus on the engine, the drivetrain and the suspension, and care less about things like fit and finish, comfort or luxury. However, I found the suspension on the WRX too soft for it.....BUT the seats are firm and very supportive and very comfy. The shifter has extremely short throw and clutch feels great, not like the 1.8T which has long throws and high clutches. Heel and toe on that car is fun. I would, however, buy the 1.8T cuz it's a great car for the value and the money. It's comfy and quiet inside, and sometimes after a day of work you want that. Try to jump into a WRX after work and if you don't appreciate the turbo note (to some it's bothering), it can be bad. I would buy the WRX for the weekends.....IF I have that kind of $$ to afford 2 cars for myself.
"Honey, is it about time to trade in your car??" I said to my girlfriend.
I've been shopping for an A4, and have yet to test drive the 1.8T vs. the 2.8, which will likely be the deciding factor. However, just wondering if anyone knows why the incentives are just for the 2.8? The cheapest quote I've gotten from a dealer puts the 1.8T at $1.5k over invoice, and $1K over invoice for the 2.8. Even though it still costs more, almost makes the 2.8 the much better deal? Worth the extra cost? (getting it the tiptronic) Sport package, worth the cost? Also, any thoughts on whether I should bother trying to negotiate a lower price, or be happy that I'm getting a good deal.
Hi Kih!-- Scroll back and maybe you'll see if some of the posts in the last few weeks can answer some of your questions. But yah, it sounds pretty logical about what you're are saying pertaining to the pricing incentives of the 1.8t vs the 2.8. The 1.8t do seem more in demand (IMO, partly because they do represent a better value) than the 2.8 and therefore will probably be discounted a bit less. Where are you located? Prices for A4's vary greatly in different regions of the country. I know by my research that here in the NW, A4's command one of the highest prices in the country. But $1,500 over invoice sounds a little high for this late in the year, IMO. If it were me, I'd try to negotiate that down a little more. I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't get a few hundred bucks within invoice especially on the 2.8.
Thanks for responding! I need all the help I can get! I'm in the San Francisco area, and am mostly looking for something that can get me through the rainy season, and get me up to Tahoe in the winter (and summer, too!). I've been going back and forth for weeks now on which model to get and which options to get too. Going back and reviewing the message board has only made this tougher. It seems as though everyone's got good pros and cons for both. It looks like selection is a bit tough right now too, most of the models left are totally loaded with options. So I've seen most of the comments on the sports package and Bose system. Anyone have any thoughts on ESP? I'm definitely looking to go with the Quattro. Because of the steep hills here, and cable car tracks, I've lost traction when it's rainy, and am really excited about getting a car that I can feel confident driving under these conditions! I'm looking forward to test driving everything this weekend (both engines with and without the sports package)!
We just bought a 2.8 Avant in the SF Bay Area (Rector in Burlingame) and paid $1500 over invoice (4%). We had a really hard time finding the exact car we wanted (called all dealers in Northern California), and felt that $1500 over invoice was a good deal. We had been ready to order from carsdirect.com because the thought of haggling was enough to drive me nuts, but ended up saving $1000 by buying directly from the dealer. As far as the 2.8 vs 1.8T, I thought there was a very noticable difference in the inside trim of the car. The leather and the wood trim are just beautiful. Is it worth the price difference? I guess it just depends on your personal situation. I have noticed that of all the A4s I see, 9/10 are the 1.8Ts.
Thanks for responding! I need all the help I can get! I'm in the San Francisco area, and am mostly looking for something that can get me through the rainy season, and get me up to Tahoe in the winter (and summer, too!). I've been going back and forth for weeks now on which model to get and which options to get too. Going back and reviewing the message board has only made this tougher. It seems as though everyone's got good pros and cons for both. It looks like selection is a bit tough right now too, most of the models left are totally loaded with options. So I've seen most of the comments on the sports package and Bose system. Anyone have any thoughts on ESP? I'm definitely looking to go with the Quattro. Because of the steep hills here, and cable car tracks, I've lost traction when it's rainy, and am really excited about getting a car that I can feel confident driving under these conditions! I'm looking forward to test driving everything this weekend (both engines with and without the sports package)!
Kih-- I have ESP and at first I was pretty ambivalent about it. But now I'm kind of glad I have it. Click on the following link to read Mark's excellent post last month on this remarkable technology: markcincinnati Jun 4, 2001 6:29am
Shannon-- Yah, I noticed the same thing about carsdiret.com's prices... usually you'll be able to do much better dealing with a dealership yourself. I'm glad you were able to find that out. I do recommend to some to go to carsdirect because they do have pretty accurate and up-to-date price lists (although Edmunds' calculators are actually pretty unbeatable when it comes to being up-to-date) and also give a good reference point for negotiating with the dealer (similar but not the same as Edmunds' TMV).
How you likin' that Avant so far?? --or do I even need to ask, lol! :-P
It seemed to me that there was a pretty good selection of A4's in the bay area. I came across this website recently that lists new cars at what seems like most of the dealers around the Bay Area. Check it out to get a sense of what's out there and where:www.dealernet.com
I am so in love with the car! I drives like a dream, and I seem to be changing opinions of friends who thing that wagons are not "cool".
mgmyers, there were a lot of A4s at the dealerships, but not too many Avants, and certainly not many 2.8s (we were looking for a very specific package in Silver or Santorin Blue).
-Shannon A4 2.8 Avant w/ Leather, Sport, Celebration, Bose, Xenon and Cold Weather (not sure why the dealers order these in California!)
Comments
Anyway, had ruled out the automatics since they don't seem to have the "pep" of the 5 speeds and notice a hesitation when it shifts gears. The 5 speed seems so much soother and assume it will get better as I get more practice shifting!
So.... have a choice of 2 A4s: both 5 speeds, both can be gotten for around $25K, one (mŽlange)has the dose system and xenon lights, the other (cactus green - kind grows on you) has the Celebration package and sport package.
Any input would be appreciated. Not much on sunroofs but seems a shame to have an A4 w/o one. Sport package: how will it impact my driving, tires, etc? Discernible difference in the 2 stereo systems? Have heard good things about xenon lights - are they reliable (don't burn out fast)?
Told the dealer would decide on Mon. FWIW, I live in San Antonio.....and have been driving Volvos for 18 yrs.....
Appreciate any input.....
Well, I guess you can see that I really love the 1.8t engine, lol... but as far as the choices you mentioned, hmmmmmm... yeah, it's a tough choice. I'd have to believe that the one with the Bose and Xenons will have either the Premium package (left-over 2001.0) or the Celebration package (2001.5) so you'll get the sunroof no matter what ...and believe me, it's one slick sunroof; the controls can't be beat! As you might know from looking at my profile, I have Bose and Xenons but no Sport package and everyone who's been reading my posts knows that I regret not getting the Sports pkg. I've come to love the Xenons but Bose IMO is not worth the cost the Audi is charging. So with that said, I'd have to recommend the catus green (nice color, btw) with the Sport package. Having the celebration package means that it is a 2001.5 and has not been sitting around the dealer's lot as long as the one without it.
So anyway, Don, I'll give you more impressions on the Sport package issue (and I'm assuming that others will contriubte to that discussion too, lol) if you need it but let me just say, IT'S WORTH THE MONEY. I'm assuming you are not looking at Quattro models and since you are in TX, you don't have the worry of changing rims/tires over in the winter. Let us know if you have any more questions and good luck!
--'rocco
The melange has only a few miles (6 when I test drove it yesterday) on it (not sure if 2001 or 2001.5) but no sunroof which is a rarity - only the 2nd one I've seen at the dealer, other one was a CX'd order. Personally, I wouldn't pay extra for the Bose system either but it's there. Yes, the cactus green (80 miles on itand a 2001.5) is growing on me after seeing it the past 2 days - dealer got it in a "trade" with another dealer. Only quattro models here are automatic and are loaded - more than I care to spend (test drove one today - def not as perky as 5 speed). However, if there was one w/manual I might consider it. For $25K I think either will be a good deal - nice that I have a choice. Only other colors here are blue and black which I would never get or automatic.
Don
Volvo's aligning with Ford was definitely disappointing along with the Saab and GM marriage. There was a funny post over on AW a few months ago that I posted here before but I'll post it again... I had to laugh, it's about Audi merging with Cadillac: CONFIRMED! VW sells Audi to Cadillac
--'rocco
Yeah Bose is nice, but not THE thing to have. I'd take Xenon for sure, Convenience pkg for sure, Quattro for sure, Sports pkg if I were you living in TX, and that's about it.
Billy
btw, convenience package?? now what's that?
-'rocco
1.8TQ Tip
Celebration package
Sport seats (but not sport suspension 'cause I didn't wanna hassle with changing tires for snowy weather)
Light silver/onyx cloth interior
Stuff I wish I wouldda gotten, in retrospect: ESP and cold-weather package.
Didn't get Xenons 'cause I live in a hilly area and have heard that they're not well-suited for that kind of terrain. Didn't get Bose 'cause I heard it's not worth the extra $$$.
Really hope I don't regret having gotten the Tip. I love driving manuals -- always have driven them -- but opted for the Tiptronic for two reasons: foot problems (screwed-up bone alignment gets painful when I have to depress a clutch in traffic, and Tip seemed less expensive than surgery!) and needed a car I could loan to my parents, who can't drive a stick.
First impressions:
It's really frustrating not to be able to goose this thing during the break-in period. When I test-drove the 1.8T automatic, I was surprised at how responsive it seemed. Now I wanna see what this new car can do, but that's gonna have to wait. Oh well.
Also: am really impressed at how solid this thing seems. I've read that the 2002 models will have greater body rigidity, and I'm thinking: how -- pour concrete over it? Fit and finish seem superb too. Also, it's so nice to have a car that I can see out of well (I'm 5'1"). But Scirocco, you're right about the B pillar causing a bit of a blockage. Am gonna have to experiment with the seat position a little bit to try to work around that.
One surprise: The fabric in the cloth upholstery is unlike any other upholstery fabric I've seen. It seems very durable but is definitely a synthetic -- none of the soft, "veloury" fabric that you find in many near-lux cars. On a scale of 1 to 10, it ranks 10 in sportiness, 0 in luxury. This isn't a criticism, just a surprise. Dealer didn't have cloth seats on the lot, so I knew this would be a bit of a crapshoot when I ordered them. Really like the configuration and support of the sport seats, though.
Handling is great. Now I've just gotta figure out what all the bells and whistles will do!
It kicks total [non-permissible content removed]. 'Nuff said.
Yes, I'm also impressed with it's "solidity" ...but what I'm hearing from those in Europe (from the VWVortex and AW boards) that already have been driving the 2002 model, the "new" body is far superior in terms of rigidity and solidity, etc. ...so lol@your comment about "concrete!" yah, so the '02 must be "really" impressive then! But I agree, after owning so many Japaneses cars, there's just something unique about the Audi's fit and finish. And about that right side blind spot: I think that adjusting the position of the passenger seat helps. I'm finding that it's the passenger seat head-rest that's doing most of the blocking.
I'm glad that the cloth seats weren't a real big disappointment. I was wondering what your impression was going to be. I'm glad it's a relatively positive one! Now, it isn't the "sport" seat option, is it? --oh wait, it is, I just noticed that you posted that! Great! I saw those seats at the dealer and would have opted for them if I had ordered the car too!
Oh man, yah, bells and whistles! How many of us have really used both "speed alarms" anyway, lol?! I've just set one of them to about 65 mph because I do most of my driving (so far) only on the freeways within the metropolitan area which have a speed limit of 60 mph. And impress your friends or maybe even yourself, lol, by going through the driver information display check! ...I know I was impressed the first time I tried it!
Again, congratulations, Karen and keep us posted on your further impressions! oh, btw, it's ok to let your parents drive it but just keep it away from hubby until you pass the 1K mark, lol ;-)
--'rocco
--'rocco
Custom Auto Trim
Wood Dash Factory
I'm sure there's more if you used a search engine.
--'rocco
BTW, I started my own business -- based out of my home -- three years ago, and for the past three years I've loved working at home and having clients' projects delivered to me there. It was so nice not to have to bother with a commute anymore. But -- lol -- this new A4 is almost enough to make me wish I had a regular job to drive to again! Almost....!
Karen-- lol! *winks*
--'rocco
I didn't care about wood or leather (the leatherette looks good to me), so I got the 1.8T and saved myself some money. I think the 1.8 is more fun to drive, anyways (as long as you get a manual tranny).
In addition to leather and wood trim that Mike mentioned, the 2.8 also comes with power front seats. This is also not a huge issue for most people, but I confess that I really like the power seats and the leather. You can check Audiworld.com and do a search on this topic for some other opinions. This is one that really comes down to personal preference and I don't think you can really go wrong!
Of course if you go down to 16" there're lots of winter tires to choose from, and maybe in the long run it's better than 17", but if you insist on the looks of 17" snow tires, the Winter Sports are the best to go.
Billy
There's something about feeling that turbo, though!
Jack-- First of all, welcome! And yes, you are right about 2.8's being slower movers and consequently may have better incentives offered. I can't really comment too much about lease rates because I'm not a "leaser" or for that mattter "a monthly payment person" period --I despise the idea of taking out a loan on a depreciating asset but that's an entirely different topic, lol! But as we have discussed before, a lot of people that consider the 2.8 (for the extra 4-5k), usually start looking more closely at Bimmers for the value gap now starts to get smaller. IMHO, the A4 with the 1.8t reprsents value that's hard to beat. I test drove both the 2.8 in the A4 and the Passat (each with 5-speeds) and didn't find them as satisfying as the 1.8t. The flat torque curve of the 1.8t with its low pressure turbo just gives it that certain "character" that, yes, there's just "something" about, lol. ooops, here I go again... I better stop now! ...sorry all:-P
Thanks!
Anyway, since having purchased our 2001 allroad I must confess that the extra power of the 2.7T engine has become very intoxicating, and actually makes the 2.8 engine feel lethargic by comparision, unless you let the revs climb well into its power band. I realize that there is about a $15,000 difference between the 1.8T (fairly loaded) and a "base" S4 (which comes very loaded) but such is the price of performance - that 2.7T engine really moves. Since three years ago the A4 2.8's pecking order seems to have been somewhat squeezed by the increased power of the 1.8T and the availability of much greater power of the S4, which is available today at a price that's less than $5,000 more than what I paid for a loaded A4 more than 3 years ago! (A4's were in very short supply at the time, and MSRP prices were the norm).
These are ALL great cars, but arguably for most people "on a budget" the 1.8T (with a stick) delivers the most bang for the buck. For the more luxury-oriented folks where performance is not as much of a factor, some great buys can now be found on the A4 2.8. But if I were in the market right now and I was looking seriously at the 2.8, I think I would try to hold off until fall when I could then hopefully test-drive the 3.0 and a leftover 2.8 back-to-back, and then make my decision.
And I think either 16 or 17 in snows would work just fine. Personally, I'd get an extra set of rims, though (and just leave the snows mounted).
Joel, I agree with your points. In my case I did not want to wait for the 2002 because I prefer the current body style and the smaller size, and I know from my Passat that the engine would be plenty satisfying. The S4 was a bit out of reach for me at this point, but I was happy to "splurge" for the other creature comforts. Bottom line is I'm really enjoying my A4!
Mark
"...But folks, this engine just storms. All 258 lb.-ft. (350 Nm) of torque is there for your exploitation by the time this V-6 measures off 1,850 rpm; never mind that in terms of specific output the 93 hp/L also places this unit firmly in the upper strata of current production engines. Pair that output with Audi's ridiculously enjoyable 6-speed manual transmission and 60 mph (97 km/h) in an A6 sedan rolls up in 6 seconds flat.
Choose a gear--just about any of the available six will do --step on the minutely responsive throttle and that monstrous wave of torque blows the car past lesser-engined conveyances with majestic aplomb. With that sort of thrust, we don't need no stinking V-8s!
Considering the contemporary state of V-8 development, you won't get anywhere near the Audi 2.7L V-6's techno package, anyway. Although we tested the 2.7L/6-speed driveline in the new (and quite good, by the way) A6-based allroad quasi-SUV, the "regular" A6 sedan/wagon also is available with Audi's engaging 4.2L DOHC V-8 --and the fact remains that we deeply prefer the twin-turbo V-6. To our way of thinking, the 2.7L twin-turbo V-6 is the perfect engine to promote what Audis are supposed to be."
I want one! :-P
--'rocco
Currently, I'd love an S4 Avant with the manual tranny. But I doubt they will still be making it in 3 years when my lease is up. Hopefully the new S4 will be out by then so I can choose (but I do think I'd want the Avant - so much practicality for so little penalty).
Such tough choices!
Oh, don't even try to drive in the snow with the high performance sports tires. It's just plain too dangerous.
Billy
Any good web sites that have user reviews of 2002. Thanks in advance for your help.
D.J.-- No offense but "duh" ...yes, the 1.8t in its stock form will "feel" underpowered compared with a WRX, lol. And a 2.8 superior to a 1.8t?? well, you know my opinion on that :-P --I don't know where you are located but here in the NW, there are very few new 1.8t with 5-speed manuals left so you wouldn't get too much of a price break on a manual as you would on a Tip.
--here's a guy in Sweden that just got an '02 that posted on a VWVortex thread... he answered some questions that some of us had: http://forums.vwvortex.com/vwbb/Forum26/HTML/001318.html
--and if you are a Yahoo member, here's 116 various pictures: 2002 A4 pics
--'rocco
--'rocco
I would hate to see the S4 go to a V or W8. Too much weight up front (on a car that already has a roughly 55/45 front weight bias).
Just decide what is more important to you - a great performer with blah looks and interior (IMO), or a good performer with great looks and interior.
Just drive them both, look at them both, and decide for yourself.
BTW, if you are leasing, my A4 lease payment is less than my payment would have been even though the A4 costs about $3-5k more, due to Audi's subsidized lease rates.
"Honey, is it about time to trade in your car??" I said to my girlfriend.
Billy
--'rocco
How you likin' that Avant so far?? --or do I even need to ask, lol! :-P
--'rocco
mgmyers, there were a lot of A4s at the dealerships, but not too many Avants, and certainly not many 2.8s (we were looking for a very specific package in Silver or Santorin Blue).
-Shannon
A4 2.8 Avant w/ Leather, Sport, Celebration, Bose, Xenon and Cold Weather (not sure why the dealers order these in California!)