Toyota Prius (First Generation)

nippononly · November 2002

what an exhaustive review of the Prius battery! Thank you!

I wanted to add my voice to the question posed above: I had a Prius for a two-week stint as a rental - it had about 5000 miles on it. In those two weeks I did a lot of driving, maybe 1500 miles, and while I admit it was a lot of highway driving, it was not ALL highway driving, and my mileage always fell between 42 and 44 mpg. I was a little disappointed given the figures quoted here and on the EPA sticker...what does one have to do to attain high 40s or even 50 mpg in 3/4 highway driving? I am used to achieving the EPA's freeway mileage number in mixed driving on all the other cars I have had. (I am pretty light-footed with the gas pedal)

I wasn't using the A/C much - it was winter.

john1701a · December 2002

45.1 MPG is my lifetime value after 43,496 miles. I can do 50 MPG in the summer with mixed driving. It drops to around 42 in winter. (And I'm in Minnesota, so that's pretty impressive.)

http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-advice02.htm lists the things to be aware of.

The most common oversight is tire-pressure. It makes a big difference. 35/33 (PSI front/back) is way too soft, yet some owners discover their tires have pressure even lower. 42/40 is strongly recommended. It will increase both MPG and the life of the tire.

Another factor that many people just aren't aware of is the level of the oil. Too much causes internal drag. Owners discovered this by observing the Multi-Display after draining out small amounts. Ideally, it should be about 1/4 to 3/8 inch below the full mark. So if your service squirts in oil from a bulk barrel, definitely check the level afterward.

JOHN

http://john1701a.com

rfruth · December 2002

hey all you Prius owners (of which I'm sadly not one) John1701a is quite adept and will try to honestly answer Prius questions if his web site doesn't (web site lists his lifetime MPG, how it was achieved, streaming video, tips & tricks, 3rd party add ons, pictures, lots of stuff) thanks John1701a !

nippononly · December 2002

wwest · December 2002

Data thoroughly aged, like a good wine.

The older mechanical voltage regulators had a bi-metalic ambient temperature "sensor" that caused the regulator to charge the battery to a higher voltage with lower temperatures. A matter of physics. I know that the older electronic regulators also had this feature but can't say for sure about modern day.

wwest · December 2002

Pick up mine, Aqua Ice, company purchase, at 1PM today.

All options with the exception of nav and side airbags which the dealer said wasn't yet shipping.

In the spring of 01 I test drove one for two weeks.

There was no question in my mind that the highway MPG was substantially lower than city stop and go. But still, on the highway at 70+ the performance was quite satisfactory.

The low highway MPG problem seemed to me to be based on a design flaw in the firmware. On the highway once the battery was fully charged it seemed that the firmware "switched" modes and then wanted to use the battery as an aid to the engine just simply (it wasn't really "needed") to bring its charge back down to the level wherein it needed to go back into the charge mode.

On a 200 mile 70MPH drive on cruise at reasonably, substantially, even speeds it seemed to needlessly discharge and then recharge the battery continuously.

44HP electric motor vs 8HP for the Honda, of course the Prius has more off-the-line get up and go. The amount, ratio, of torque the electrics can generate substantially exceeds the gasoline engine.

I will immediately be converting the headlamps to Hylow HID and the parking/tail/stop lamps to LED (Ledtronics) and disabling the A/C compressor with ambient OAT below 65, if that isn't already possible.

wwest · December 2002

Picked up the Prius shop manuals today and with a quick scan discovered something called a PTC heater.

Any guesses?

john1701a · December 2002

I think that's the name they gave the tiny 300w electric heater. Its purpose is to provide immediate warmth, enough to just barely prevent the air being blown from being ice-cold.

So when you first startup the Prius, it gives you a little something before the engine gets warm enough to provide regular heat. It also delays the engine from restarting a little bit while waiting at an intersection.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

eheading · January 2003

We picked up our 2003 Prius on 12/31, and are very happy with it so far. I do have a question though. The owner's manual recommends starting and running the car at least every 2 weeks to keep from hurting the batteries. We go away and leave our car for 3-4 months at a time. I installed a trickle charger on my previous car to keep the battery charged while we were away. Another car I could remove one fuse and significantly reduce the discharge rate on the battery.

Is there anything one can do on the Prius? I can keep the auxilary battery charged with my trickle charger. Does it hurt the nickel hydride batteries to discharge? Is there any kind of a charger one can put on the traction battery to keep it up while we are away? Are there any fuses that can be pulled to minimize the discharge rate on the batteries? I have submitted an email question to Toyota on this question, but haven't yet received an answer.

nippononly · January 2003

services you can leave your car with that will run it as often as you like while you are away for extended periods of time. or you could loan it to a friend or a family member to drive once in a while until you come back.

I kinda doubt there would be an equivalent to the trickle charge situation though...it is a sealed battery pack with 42 cells or something like that!

nippononly · January 2003

I wonder if there is a way to disconnect the battery pack the way you can disconnect the regular battery in your car, and thus reduce discharge while you are away?

eheading · January 2003

Actually I just received an answer to my storage question from my dealer. My email message to Toyota was forwarded to my dealer. They said just disconnect the auxiliary battery (the 12V battery) and go. Apparently they are saying it is okay to let the traction battery pack discharge occasionally. This is a very workable solution for me. I am going to install a knife switch on the negative terminal of the auxiliary battery, and just open it when we go away.

Thanks for your comments!

wwest · January 2003

Make sure it's rated for maximum starter current.

Is there an engine starter on the 12V battery?

If not, long term storage might result in the traction battery being fully discharged, at least discharged to the point of no engine starting capability.

eheading · January 2003

They assured me that one could start the engine with the auxiliary battery, and that letting the hybrid battery pack go dead would not hurt it. That agrees with my understanding of nickel-metal hydride batteries too.

Anyway, late this spring I'll let you know it it worked! I do think I should back into the garage before I leave it though as it backs up on the electric motor only!

canc · January 2003

I'm interested to know how well Priuses are doing in the bitterly cold weather Canada and upper US states have been experiencing lately, notably gas mileage, start-up, and any other information you find interesting and useful.

Thanks!

flagmichael · January 2003

In the Yahoo toyota-prius group, many of the people are Northerners. Several are reporting that around 0 degrees F they get the "turtle" warning when they start the car. In most cases it doesn't seem to have any effect on the operation and the turtle goes away in a few minutes - although sometimes the car has to be restarted to clear the turtle.

Below freezing, fuel economy drops considerably and depends on the length of the trip. Short trip drivers report about 10 mpg drop (into the 30s) while people who drive about half an hour or more report correspondingly les impact, usually in the low 40s.

Actual starting appears to be unaffected except for those who have actual problems like water in the fuel or bad injectors (there was a batch of bad injectors in 2001, it seems).

However, note there is an unresolved situation with the 12V "auxiliary" battery in that when it dies (all batteries give out sometime) there is no warning - the system just won't boot up. The battery can be jumped with almost anything (reportedly even a 9 volt battery, and certainly a 14 volt cordless drill battery) because it only pulls in a sequential relay and boots the computers, but in the US it seems the replacements are ordered from Japan.

Mike P

canc · January 2003

I'll check out the Prius posts on Yahoo as well as on here.

jim250 · March 2003

Apparently, the auxillary battery only tends to go dead when the car is not run for periods longer than ~2 weeks. I have let my car sit for two weeks with no apparent problems however. I have recently gone to Radio Shack and bought a thing with a male cigarette lighter plug on one end and an 8' wire on the other. I also got two small alligator clips which I will solder onto the wires' ends. These are large enough to clip onto the auxillary battery's smallish terminals. I also have a Sears cordless air pump which has a female cigarette lighter outlet on top and which contains a rechargeable 12 volt battery to power the pump. If ever my auxillary battery should go dead, I will be able to hook up this air pump's battery to the car's auxillary battery and that should provide enough juice to boot up the computer and thus start the car. That way I wouldn't have to rely on someone else to jump the car.

When I was at a Toyota dealership recently, the Shop Foreman told me I could alternatively just disconnect the battery if I won't be using the car for an extended time period. Another option he recommended is to get a "Battery Tender Jr.", which is something one can use to trickle charge a lawnmower or motorcycle battery. He got a motorcycle magazine for me and in the back pages there was an advertisement for such a unit. I haven't yet investigated that further. He said that small charger could be hooked up to the auxillary battery with no need to disconnect the car's battery cables. I would have to make sure of that last point before I would really do it that way. Don't want to hurt my Prius.

minoans · March 2003

I am new to chat rooms but have to share the news that I reviewed a 2004 Prius in Long Beach last Friday. It is Fantastic! They have made it a 4 door hatchback. The nose has a mouse look to it and they are using new hybrid technology that is suppose to deliver 60/50 MPG. The back seat is roomier, and it is a split fold down. The rear is fashioned after the Insight's hatchback. The back window is split into two pieces. They are looking at differnent colors: a dark metallic blue, red, black, white, metallic light green, & metallic silver. The interiors are a black, charcoal and tan. They are working on two different types of keys. The first would be a fob that you insert into a slot and then push a button to start the car, and the second is a fob where the car "senses" the fob so you don't insert it anywhere. The transmission shifter is also a lot smaller, but is in basically the same place. There was a JBL sound system in the one I sat in. I have probably typed too much, so will end here.

Bill

canc · March 2003

thanks Bill for the news! When is it going to be available to everyone?

flagmichael · March 2003

Yep - the tiny aux (12V) battery goes flat after a few weeks of non-use. Consensus on the Yahoo Prius group is that the Battery Tender Jr is safe enough, at least a lot safer than letting the battery go flat and sit that way. Sitting flat is sure death for the battery.

The same applies to any car, but the 12V battery in the Prius is so small it is especially susceptible. On the plus side, it can be jumped with almost any battery that puts out about 12V... one of the Yahoo gurus jumped his with a 14 volt drill battery and a small pair of clip leads. The battery just runs the power steering pressurizer pump for a few seconds, then pulls in a sequential relay and boots the computers. The engine is cranked by the 273 volt "traction" battery.

canc · March 2003

Is it better to trade in one's car for a new Prius, or buy a used car that doesn't get as much gas to the gallon?

minoans · March 2003

The marketing people didn't know when the new Prius would be available. They said the price would be $20,300. I have a 2001 Prius on lease that ends in December. I hope it is ready by then! My Prius has been maintenance free accept for oil changes, and those lousy tires. We love it! They also had stats on a hybrid Highlander. They are projecting 40/30 MPG and a price tag of $28,800. No date on that one either.

little_pogi · March 2003

It's nice to know that a nex gen preview Prius has arrived in Socal. There are a lot of questions out there that are just waiting to be asked. If you don't mind Bill, can you post some more useful information/specs on what you saw in Long Beach. Previous posting noted that the next gen Prius will be bigger than the current one. Is the one you saw bigger than the current Prius? I dont mind reading a long article on the 2004 Prius.

flagmichael · March 2003

That is the question of the day. After the last new car I bought (84 Dodge 600ES - LeBaron) turned out to be a major lemon I vowed never to buy another new car. I favor used cars with at least 80K miles; it's hard to hide poor care at that stage and most will give at least another 100K miles... more than the Dodge ever did.
My wife wanted a *new* car, and we both wanted an improvement over our 20 mpg beasts. I believe conventional power trains will be well down the road to obsolescence even in the public eye by the time we give up our new car, so we focused on hybrids. We didn't know how much we'd come to love driving the Prius.
Environmentally, I think it is a toss-up. Every car on the road will still be driven until there is no home for it any more. If you don't drive a used car, somebody else will drive the one you didn't buy.

2002ncprius · March 2003

I have the Prius factory navigation DVD system. Does anyone have price availability (other than my local dealer), who sells it, and can I install the latest map DVD myself (my current DVD data version: 2001 ver.1)

nippononly · March 2003

like 25% of the entire energy use of a car during its lifetime comes in its production, especially if it is aluminum-intensive (which uses a LOT of energy to produce). So how about that? By the time you see it for the first time, 25% of its lifetime energy use has already occurred!

Given that, it would be better to recycle the used cars that are already in the fleet, if they are fairly energy-conserving (think of all those Geo Metros from the 90s, unloved and unwanted).

But, if your current car is an 18 mpg gas hog, like many SUVs and large sedans, it might be better to trade for the new Prius anyway, since its mileage is a big enough increase to compensate. Of course, in the view of the environment (and not your financial advisor), this is only true if you scrap your current vehicle. If you sell it to someone else who continues to drive it, you have not accomplished a net gain for the system.

gaspar1 · March 2003

I'd buy a Prius today, but I really want leather seats, which no Prius currently has. Will the 2004 have leather seats? If not, why not?

john1701a · March 2003

>> I really want leather seats, which no Prius currently has

Not true. I saw one with leather 2 years ago. A dealer here just had a third-party convert to leather after the factory delivery. It's not a big deal... if you have the money.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

jrct9454 · March 2003

...there are a gazillion sources out there to do it independently. Lots of dealers have these connections and are more than happy to take your money to make it happen.

In general, Toyota's perception of the market for this car is that leather is very low on the list of priorities for most of its customers. So while you are obviously an exception, don't look for them to offer this any time soon. An independent conversion is the most readily available answer.

coolguyky7 · April 2003

Will the Prius also come in sedan form? I would think that the design of a hatch would result in more weight which is a huge problem in this kind of vehicle.

If anyone is wondering why the Prius is receiving such a recent redesign, it's because the original Prius debuted in Japan back in 1997.

Also, apparently Toyota loses about $20,000 for every Prius it sells because they cost about $40,000 to produce. Perhaps Toyota's loss will be much less on this vehicle as it's more advanced and the Prius' sales are growing. 2,532 units were sold last month, March. Go Prius!

john1701a · April 2003

>> Will the Prius also come in sedan form?

It is a sedan already. It just has an unusually short front-end (since the hybrid system is so small) and the tall interior makes it appear even shorter.

>> I would think that the design of a hatch would result in
>> more weight which is a huge problem in this kind of
>> vehicle.

Weight hasn't been a problem at all so far. And to create a hatch, it doesn't involve adding much more material. It's mostly a cost issue.

Also, the 2004 Prius is actually larger than the current version, yet it weighs less.

>> apparently Toyota loses about $20,000 for every Prius
>> it sells because they cost about $40,000 to produce.

Prius hasn't lost money in years. Toyota broke even awhile ago. And within the last year, they starting making a modest profit. So as you can imagine, the upcoming redesign will provide an even greater profit. That will make everyone involved in the sales aspect much more interested in selling lots more Prius.

The (hybrid) wheels of progress are really begin to pick up speed now.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

coolguyky7 · April 2003

I know the Prius is already in sedan form. The other person implied that it was going to only be a hatchback.

I don't understand how Toyota is possibly making a profit on this vehicle. I don't see how Toyota went from a $20,000 loss to profit.

john1701a · April 2003

>> I don't understand how Toyota is possibly making a
>> profit on this vehicle.

Why not? The physical design isn't any more complex than a traditional vehicle.

Remember, since Prius is a "full" hybrid, some components found in traditional vehicles were eliminated. That and taking into account the fact that the hybrid is now mass-produced reduces cost enough to make it competitive.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

nippononly · April 2003

big R&D costs for the hybrid powertrain (first of its kind) in the early years of Prius. But Toyota announced January last year that they had broken even and so they have been making a profit on it for about 15 months now...

I bet they will offer a sedan version of Prius for '04 as well as hatchback. Toyota is the king of sedans after all. But I will be looking for the hatchback!

lenscap · April 2003

The 2004 Prius will make its world debut at 1:40P on April 16 at the New York Auto Show.

nippononly · April 2003

is that eastern standard time? :-)

flagmichael · April 2003

All vehicles are initially sold at a huge loss, as the R&D costs are amortized across a small number of vehicles. If the model is successful the model becomes a money-maker, if not, it becomes a big loser. Ford was pretty worried about the Mustang before it hit the market, according to a recent History Channel show. They were betting $300 million in development costs back when $2000 would buy a new car.

john1701a · April 2003

And don't forget, Prius is more profound of a change than Mustang was. There's much more than a specialized body style. The propulsion system is completely unique too, quite different from anything else on the market. So it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that Toyota planned a longer than usual rollout strategy... which is the ideal way to setup a new infrastructure. Prius is simply the first of many to be offered. Ultimately, this should result in very impressive profit. The long-term goal will really pay off.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

crimsono2 · April 2003

That the 2004 Ford Escape Hybrid is working off of a Prius drive-train. You can bet your sweet bippy that Ford paid Toyota a pretty penny to use their hybrid technology (why re-invent the wheel?). With companies like Nissan and Ford tapping Toyota's shoulder for a little help on their hybrid drive-trains, it's easy to see why Toyota's able to sell their Priuses at losses, when they're at the vanguard of alternatively fueled cars. Don't think Toyota's forgotten about fuel cells either. I got out of an engineering class a week ago only to encounter a dozen professors hovering over an FCHV Highlander prototype with a bunch of fancy doodads. One that looked just like the one the President/Prime Minister in Japan rode on its inauguration.

john1701a · April 2003

What about advertising savings?

Since Prius advertisements are almost non-existant compared to many other promotion campaigns, it kind of makes you wonder how big of a portion of the sticker price helps to pay for that. With Prius, it's almost a trivial amount. The calculates to a real cost reduction.

JOHN http://john1701a.com

raychuang00 · April 2003

I hope that the new 2004 Prius--because it will be lighter than the current car--will still keep the helical-gear CVT-like transmission found on the current car.

That should result in probably cutting at least 0.5 to 1 second off the current 0-60 time. I also like the fact the new model will likely sport better fuel economy, too.

It sounds like the new Prius has been designed more for American drivers, not Japanese drivers like the original model.

wwest · April 2003

Uniquely US thinking, and on a hybrid specifically designed for fuel economy.

john1701a · April 2003

>> a hybrid specifically designed for fuel economy

Actually, Prius's primary purpose is emission reduction. The great fuel economy is a benefit from that design. (By the way, it says 51.0 MPG on my Multi-Display right now!)

>> 0-60 time

That value doesn't mean much anymore. The current Prius satisfies all but the most extreme heavy acceleration needs already. The new Prius should satisfy all of them. Anything beyond that is just fluff. Of course, there is a market for unneeded features in the US...

JOHN http://john1701a.com

wwest · April 2003

Emission reduction vs fuel economy.

Didn't my 7th grade math teacher call that a balanced equation?

Or do emissions reduce at a different rate than fuel economy increases?

Anybody checking for fumes from the battery set?

eman5 · April 2003

I'm itching to see what it's gonna be. Hope Toyota keeps, perhaps even tightens, its remarkable turning radius (how DO they do that?). Cd, mpg, hatchback design with dropping rear seats, performance--and especially safety--improvements will all be interesting to see. Some (optional?) luxury interior accoutrements like leather, heated/ventilated seats, etc. would be nice, and would probably help sales.

i_luv_toyota · April 2003

from the official unveiling of the next generation Prius!

essweb · April 2003

nippononly · April 2003

when it will come to market, but if you go to autoshowny.com tomorrow and click on "debuts" there should be a window that includes the '04 Prius...I am very curious to see what they have come up with.

daysailer · April 2003

>>The current Prius satisfies all but the most
>>extreme heavy acceleration needs already.
>>The new Prius should satisfy all of them.
>>Anything beyond that is just fluff.

To assume that that anything beyond what YOU have decided is adequate for YOUR purposes is unnecessary (even "extreme") for anyone else. Those who pay more attention to traffic than to their "multi-display" may draw other conclusions.
The fact remains that the hybrids are among the poorest performing sedans currently sold, particularly when you consider their lofty price!

Toyota Prius (First Generation)

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