Toyota Prius (First Generation)

tysalpha

> A practical feature I want for a sun/moon roof
  is this: A sensor that can sense rain drops,
  environment temperature, and light such that
  the roof will close when the temperature drops,
  when it starts to rain, or when it's getting
  dark.

Actually, I believe Mercedes has this on their cars. If the rain sensor for the automatic wipers detects rain, the car closes the sunroof (or convertable roof, in the case of the SL and SLK).

RE: the Prius, although I'd get a moonroof if it was offered, it's not a showstopper for me. I'm with the person who said heated seats tho.

mrvadeboncoeur

Toyota already has made a 4WD hybrid, the E-Four THS-C design found on the Toyota Estima hybrid minivan. Imagine the Prius' propulsion for the front wheels (gas engine and a motor), with an added electric motor for the rear wheels. See: http://www.toyota.co.jp/IRweb/corp_info/eco/index_frame.html?loca- tion=advanced_hybrid00 and choose the "Hybrid Vehicle Lineup" link on the right.

particlewave9

If heated seats are necessary, it should be coupled with the remote starting feature. A friend of mine had his Camry installed with this, by which he can start the car on the curbside from within the house and get in when it's warm enough. But that was an option installed by the dealer.

particlewave9

The linked http://www.benerridge.freeserve.co.uk/ is really a great piece of work. I've seen all those models on Popular Mechanics or Popular Science (not sure which), but to have them available at my finger tips is really nice. Thanks.

particlewave9

probably will be shared by the coming Toyota SUVs? This reminds me of Honda's concept RD-X, which made me think: "If only they could make the ground clearance adjustable so that you have a high clearance when in SUV mode and a low clearance when in a sports car mode..."

pearsonrj

I believe that a sunroof is a piece of glass, usually with a shade that can be slid across underneath it. A moonroof is of the same material as the roof itself. For example BMW until a few years ago offered moonroofs on their cars...

nippononly

someone check me here, but I am certain it is the other way around: a moonroof is a piece of glass that slides open and closed, and you can see the "moon" through it at night, hence the name. A sunroof is a piece of metal that slides open and shut...these are not so popular any more.

Some people see the term moonroof and assume it only pops up and down, rather than sliding open and closed. But that is not always the case.

I know Toyota calls its glass roofs now used universally on models that have a roof option "Moonroof"s.

particlewave: Mercedes is coming out with a couple of cars soon that have a roof entirely made of glass, and they are not the only ones...these roofs can be set electrically to a desired level of opacity, so you can look through to your heart's content, or you can turn it dark if the sun is blazing down. (or maybe it turns itself dark under these conditions, I forget)

particlewave9

Makes you feel like in the computer upgrading dilemma, huh? The next generation always offers more for less, and you never can get the best of all for more than a few months... :-)

I guess that sentiment was felt by people ever since ancient times, for even then there was always new things coming into the market...

Now of course we are only talking about the seemingly miraculous technological advancement and the bright side of human civilizations...

Sometimes I can't help thinking whether we would feel any better if we all could fly, hence having no use of such technology of convenience. Or would it solve all our problems if we remain in pure energy form, hence having no use for any material things... Probably not, otherwise we wouldn't have chosen to live through this mostly miserable physical existence, would we? :-)

*The above is based on the assumption (which is my belief) that we do exist beyond the physical existence, and we are fundamentally spiritual beings, and the physical existence is more of an ilusion than the other way around.

blane

Page C1 of today's NY Times Business Day section has an interesting article entitled: "Whether a Hummer or a Hybrid, The Big Complaint Is Fuel Use". Here are a few excerpts:

"Drivers of Hummers and hybrids have something in common after all.

Both are dissatisfied with how much gas their vehicles consume, according to a closely watched survey of initial quality by J. D. Power and Associates released today. Fuel consumption was listed by drivers of both General Motors' Hummer H2 and the fuel-efficient Toyota Prius hybrid as their top complaint - though Hummer complaints dwarfed those for Prius.

...."The biggest issue on the Hummer was excessive fuel consumption, so the increasing prices of fuel didn't help."

He (sic) said G.M. would focus on "managing expectations," adding, "There is the possibility of placing the mileage sticker on the vehicle, and we are looking at that."

Surprisingly, fuel consumption was also a complaint for buyers of Japanese hybrids, which conserve gas by supplementing their internal combustion engines with electric power. Such vehicles are designed to perform well in city driving and conserve energy in stop-and-start traffic, but lose much of their added efficiency on highways. Mr. Tews said some hybrid drivers were disappointed that for the extra cost of a Prius, the highway mileage should be even better.

If fuel consumption was the top complaint for the Prius, it still came in best among compact cars, with just 81 complaints over all per 100 vehicles. Fuel consumption was the second-highest complaint of buyers of the hybrid version of the Honda Civic."

eman5

Let's start a petition!

autonuts

tell me if the Prius is able to tow anything?

flagmichael

The owner's manual states the Prius has no towing capacity. Several people have successfully towed small trailers, but it is not blessed by Toyota.

raychuang00

I think the concerns about the lower fuel efficiency of hybrids is due to the fact that at higher speeds you need both the electric motor and gasoline engine to get decent performance.

I think this will change with the 2004 Prius with its much-improved hybrid drivetrain. I expect fuel mileage to be 10-15% better because there is less need for run the gasoline motor at higher speeds.

dudleyr

I thought the Prius mostly ran on the gas motor at higher speeds, not the other way around as implied above. Am I wrong?

flagmichael

You've got it right. There is a maximum speed at which the Prius can shut down the ICE, determined by the maximum speeds of the electric motors. (That gets involved, but it's just the way it works.) The current Prius has to run the ICE above 42 mph, and that speed goes up to something like 50 mph in the 2004. More important, the word from Toyota indicates it actually will lean more heavily on the electric at lower speeds.

daysailer

of the hybrid derives from energy revovery in cyclic operation. Since highway driving approaches a steady state operating condition, there is little opportunity for energy recovery. The highway fuel consumption is that of the unassisted IC engine yet it will still be better than a conventional car of similar mass which would require a larger IC engine.

daysailer

Note: contrary to the misconceptions of some in this forum, the hybrid is LESS efficient when operating on electric motor alone. ALL energy must come from gasoline and is delivered by the IC engine! When operating electric-only, the losses of the electric drive are ADDED to that of the IC engine. The purpose of electric-only operation is to reduce the lossy and emission spiking stop-start cycles of the IC engine in urban driving.

particlewave9

>the hybrid is LESS efficient when operating on electric motor alone.

I think what I'll be saying here should complement what you wrote above.

Running the motor alone should be the most efficient when the car starts from a stop. The gas engine would be highly inefficient during this period (and it remains inefficient until the car reaches its "economy speed" per the engine design).

If you think of the motor's being using electric energy converted from gas, it indeed is less efficient than running the gas engine directly or running it in combination with the motor. But, given the electricity used to run the motor is mostly recovered from energy that otherwise would have been wasted (e.g., during braking, especially when going downhill), and given that even if some of the electricity stored is more directly from the gas engine, it is done when the engine runs in its most efficient state. Therefore, using this gas-energy-turned-electric-energy to start the car should still be more efficient than simultaneously starting the gas engine during this period of time.

Now the hybrid system in the Hybrid Civic would be a different story.

flagmichael

Theoretically, even a series hybrid should be more efficient than a straight combustion engine connected through gears to the drive wheels. Several factors conspire to rob engines of efficiency including running at low manifold pressures (effectively lowering the compression ratio). Whether the Prius or HCH manage to realize any of that gain is a good question. I'd give the HCH the edge in that its smaller engine can be run at higher MAP by using the electric to provide its reserve power. The Prius also takes advantage of that but in a less direct way.
How much is there to gain? An Otto cycle engine with infinite compression ratio has a theoretical maximum efficiency of about 65% (because air is not very elastic). Toyota rates the Prius ICE at about 35% efficient - in mixed use, I assume.

daysailer

was prompted by comments re the Prius' (or HCH) highway fuel consumption as compared to its "city" performance. My point is that in steady state operation, which highway operation approaches, the hybrid offers no improvement in efficiency. Reduction of fuel consumption in steady state cruising derives from the smaller ICE as compared to conventional vehicles of similar mass, not from any contribution of electric drive. Of course, real conditions can only approach steady state and to whatever extent operation is cyclic, the energy recovery capacity of the hybrid will be advantageous, but this contribution is much less for highway operation than for city.

john1701a

> My point is that in steady state operation, which
> highway operation approaches, the hybrid offers no
> improvement in efficiency.

There's no such thing as a "steady" highway.

Prius takes full advantage of even minor incline & decline changes. What seems like a trivial downward lean in the road to you is a big boost for the hybrid system. When it senses it, the engine decreases the RPM and pumps the electricity way up. That results in a very noticeable spike in MPG. Then when you add commute traffic to that, where every little flucuation in speed translates to a coast & accelerate opportunity, the MPG goes up even more.

Take a look at my Hybrid Road Rally data from July 11-14 last year (on this page http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-data03.htm). You'll see that I averaged 48.5 MPG from driving highways almost exclusively.

JOHN

spidermonkey

Aerodynamic drag = (density of air) * (drag coefficient) * (frontal area of the car) * (velocity squared). The important part of that equation is the velocity squared part. The faster you go the more drag, a.k.a. air resistance, you have to overcome. The relationship is not linear, but exponential. So increasing your speed from 50 mph to 60 mph increases drag by 44%!

The exponential nature of drag is why fuel economy goes down when you drive 85 mph compared to 60 mph. This phenomenon was the rationale for reducing the speed limit to 55mph in the 70s. Most cars have so many fuel consuming characteristics at low speeds that the gains of driving at a constant highway speed are high enough to increase fuel economy. However, hybrids go a long way to reducing fuel consumption at low speeds, so much so that the drag encountered at highway speeds becomes more evident.

The new Prius has one of the lowest drag coefficients around, so that will be a main force behind improved highway fuel consumption. I think the Prius's drag coefficient dropped from .29 to .26, which roughly corresponds to the 10-15% improvement in fuel economy claimed by Toyota.

VW was able to make a 1-liter/100km car (over 200 mpg diesel) by making a car with a very low drag coefficient. This car carried three people, including the driver, that were all lined up one after the other. The result was a torpedo shape that had a drag coefficient in the low teens.

particlewave9

Amen! That is why I had wished that the new Prius would get rid of the side mirrors altogether. They may not add much to the drag at lower speed, but they definitely add measurable drag at highway speed.

Getting rid of anything extruding (including that antenna) and covering up the bottom, you might get the Cd to way below 0.25. That would further lower the highway fuel consumption without any tweeking in the drive train.

God and I would see that it is good. :-)

particlewave9

I just read that the Prius is becoming popular in London... That's all good. But how could it be so much more expensive there than it is here?

It's "at least 1,6995 pounds" which is "1.5 times more expensive" than its gas-engine-only counterpart... That's not a misquote, isn't it?

What's the current exchange rate between English pound and US dollar?

aaa_edgar_poe

Diesels are about 30% more efficient than gas engines on average. SO why not Diesel?

And why not add a couple of extra batteries and allow people to recharge a bit at home on a 110 Volt or 220 Volt line?

And why not replace side mirrors with a very small profile digital camera that pops out when you start up and displays the side images on a screen that is easier to see than looking in a side mirror anyway?

Look, these three ideas I have are really good and should be implemented. I would like Toyota to respond to me on these ideas and get them implemented in the next 3 months so when I buy me new car I get a really, really gread solution.

Also, can one disconnect the day-time runing lights? If you got a white car, I don't see the need for day-time running lights. Running lights should only be required on non-white/yellow cars.

Does the Prius rear red lights use Light-Emitting Diodes (LED)? If not, why not?

They could, if they did a diesel, run the car on waste vegtible oil (WVO), too (ref www.greasel.com). I think a hybrid-diesel-WVO that can be somewhat recharged at home is perhpas the best solution until an all Hydrogen car come out in 30 years from now. Germany is really best placed for an all Hydorgen car since the Rurh has undeground hydrogen piple lines like we have natural gas pipe lines. And don't tell me its unsafe -- read up on it.

People should be listening to me on all this.

john1701a

> why not Diesel?

Because REDUCING EMISSIONS is the ultimate goal of Prius, not squeezing out ultimate efficiency. The fact that you still get very pleasing MPG is a secondary benefit.

That's pretty easy to prove too. All you have to do is observe how the engine consumes gas for the sole purpose of heating the catalytic-converter when you first startup a Prius. It wastes gas to generate heat, even when the vehicle isn't moving. This is clearly not needed for a system that runs mostly on electricity. And if you study design of the new Prius, you'll see that they enhanced the engine to create heat faster.

The new Prius achieves a PZEV emissions rating. That puts it several levels above what a clean diesel system can accomplish currently, making diesel a very poor choice for reducing SMOG related emissions. In a few years, diesel is suppose to catch up. But a "don't believe it until it actually happens" attitude is completely appropriate when dealing with the automotive industry.

JOHN

john1701a

>> why not add a couple of extra batteries

To keep the cost competitive.

>> why not replace side mirrors with a very
>> small profile digital camera

To keep the cost competitive.

>> can one disconnect the day-time runing lights?

Yes, there's a fuse you can pull.

>> If you got a white car, I don't see the need
>> for day-time running lights.

You obviously don't live in a state where it SNOWS! White cars disappear from view during the day in the winter. If it wasn't for the headlights, you might not see it sometimes. Just look at the 3 photos on http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-album27.htm where a dark colored Prius had a coating of sticky snow cover it in only about 4 minutes.

>> Does the Prius rear red lights use
>> Light-Emitting Diodes (LED)?

To keep the cost competitive, the classic model doesn't.

The new model has an altered standard package, so it appears as though they were able to include LEDs in that base price. This provides a huge design advantage, since light bulbs can't handle a slamming hatch anywhere near as well as LEDs can.

>> until an all Hydrogen car come out

An "all hydrogen" system is unrealistic, especially since gas & diesel are so much more efficient fuels than hydrogen. Not being able to recapture energy lost from braking & slowing would be a huge waste. So a battery-pack or ultra-capacitor will be included to store that energy. That addition would make the vehicle a hybrid.

JOHN

dudleyr

That does not sound very good for highway driving. A corolla could do that (manual tranny). A VW diesel can get over 60 if you drive carefully.

I would hope a Prius could do better than 50 on the highway.

particlewave9

>especially since gas & diesel are so much more efficient fuels than hydrogen.

I don't remember the exact numbers, but don't you think hydrogen in a fuel cell based car would be more efficient than IC system? A fuel cell car doesn't have a gas engine, thus the capacitor or batteries used to store energy shouldn't make the car a hybrid, should it?

john1701a

>> I would hope a Prius could do better than 50 on
>> the highway.

The new one does.

>> A corolla could do that (manual tranny).

But Prius emits over 70% cleaner exhaust and it is an automatic. That gives it 2 obvious advantages.

JOHN

john1701a

>> but don't you think hydrogen in a fuel cell based
>> car would be more efficient than IC system?

There's no need to postulate. The results are fact now. Just read some of the white papers available on the current fuel-cell vehicles. They only get a gasoline equivalent of 14 MPG.

JOHN

dudleyr

>>But Prius emits over 70% cleaner exhaust and it is an automatic. That gives it 2 obvious advantages.<<

One advantage and one disadvantage to me. ; ^ )

flagmichael

My understanding is that Toyota is developing diesel-based hybrid systems. It could be the key to acceptance in Europe, where diesel is usually taxed less than gasoline.
In the U.S. diesel is still not making the grade. Pollution, noise and smell in a new technology car? That wouldn't fly. (Yes, even the newest and highest tech diesels are noisier and smellier than modern gasoline engines.)
The efficiency advantage of diesels is also a technology issue. As I often point out, the theoretical limit of efficiency for a diesel engine is around 50% and for an Otto cycle engine it is about 65%. The keys to increasing gas engine efficiency are higher compression and not throttling the intake or exhaust. Putting the engine under computer control as the Toyota hybrid systems do is an important step toward making gasoline engines more efficient than diesels in actual use.

flagmichael

This was recently a lively discussion in the Yahoo toyota-prius group. Many people would like to see a grid-rechargable option on the Prius.
There is one huge snag: the hybrid system has to be able to foresee the future. The battery has to be unusually discharged to allow room for charge to be added, and in normal use the hybrid computer keeps the battery near it's maximum allowable charge. After all, any unused capacity is wasted... poor design, you bet. It was suggested the first mile or two could be done on electric, so if the car was parked and recharged everything would be copacetic. But that raised the spectre of the car often being driven a mile or two beyond electric range, leading to an inadequately warmed engine and the problems Toyota circumvents by running the ICE at start-up until it and the cat are warm.
One suggestion was to include a momentary switch to tell the system it was going to be a short trip with a charger at the end so the system wouldn't fire up the ICE unless necessary. I didn't think that would sell well, but others disagree.
The most visionary approach was to use the optional NAV as a means to tell the car when to leave room for electrical dessert. I think there is a possibility there, but don't look for it anytime soon.
In any event, we can't just connect a charger to the HV battery in the Prius (or any hybrid) as it is today. There is rarely any room to add charge.

dsgecho

I am pretty good at winging the last little MPG out of economy cars. I could only one time get right at 50 mpg out of a 2001 Corolla on an etended trip. It was a GOOD car and usually did in the low 40 mpg range when driven carefully. So I have to admit I am skeptical of the 50 mpg/manual/Corolla claim. Only one time was I ever able to get above 50 mpg in an echo- 55 mpg on a 350 mile trip. But I have gotten plenty of trips in the lower to upper 50 mpg trips in the Prius- in town or hiway. Getting into the lower 60 mpg range was pretty rare and not on any longer hiway trips. It seems all the vehicles have a limit that is hard to break- even with ideal conditions and careful driving. So I kinda doubt the 60 mpg figures for the VW diesel so easily though I know they can get into the 50 mpg range w/o a lot of problems. As soon as they make diesel a little cleaner than it is now and not build them in 3d world countries I will probably buy one. I know - they already have cleaner diesel in Europe thanks to our oil companies here until 2007.

drmp

In my country most cars are either 1.3 gasoline or 2.0 diesel and the diesel gets more mpg errr km/liter with better power and more specially better torque.

dudleyr

Were those cars automatic or manual? If you were getting near 50 in an automatic that is very good as manuals tend to beat their epa numbers by a wider margin than automatics.

Look at tdiclub.com and you will see people who get 70 mpg in a diesel Passat. Of course that is with fanatical driving and extremely high tire pressure.

One way to get a good idea of what your car can achieve is to multiply the epa highway number by 1.28 (this makes up for the epa deducting 22% from the highway number they actually achieve). A Corolla was measured at 51 mpg by the epa before they deducted 22% to bring in down to 40.

Keep a car in tune, pump tires up to 35 or 36 psi, drive on a day with no wind and no need for a/c. Fill up after the car is warm, then hop right on the highway and keep the car at 60 to 65 - the gas mileage can be stunning. I can easily get over 40 mpg in my Integra (epa rated at 28 highway) if I drive it carefully. If you can stand to drive, then 55 mileage gets even better.

little_pogi

I would not be surprise if it is common to get 50mpg or more in certain countries. When the cost of a gallon of gas is equivalent to half a day's pay, one will do whatever it takes to maximize mileage. I am refering to stock ICE and some help in driving attitude. It's just a matter of survival for these guys to have high mileage driving.

flagmichael

It just occurred to me there is one other challenge in using diesels in hybrids. Gasoline engines are essentially "instant on"... the THS just spins the ICE up to about 1000 rpm, engages the valves, turns on the ignition and injects fuel. Within about a second the ICE is making power again. During that second the electrics are powering the car if the driver has pressed the accelerator.
Diesels would either have to run more often when sitting in traffic or descending grades to keep themselves ready, or would require more powerful electrics to power the car while the glow plugs heated. Not a show-stopper, but a complication. In a parallel hybrid - even a "mild" hybrid where the engine is just shut down when stopped - it would be more problematic. It would be bad form to crank the engine while the glow plugs are trying to heat up, so there would have to be a setup to disengage the engine from the drive train for times like that.
Similarly, gas turbines would only work in a true series hybrid, running only when the battery is getting low. Those things take quite a while to start even when warm.

elight50

The 2004 Prius has worked its way into my head. So, I've scanned this board and the Yahoo! board looking for reasons NOT to buy a hybrid and a Prius in particular. I haven't found any, but I'd thought I'd check.

It seems that the current Prius has had some problems with the 12V battery, tire problems, some complaints about fuel economy, a comment or two about paint, and some number of issues with electrical warning lights. None of this worries me too much, but I'd like current owners and those of you that are familiar with the car to offer opinions whether these problems are significant and if they've been rectified in the 2004 model. I'm also curious about snow-related operation and whether there are particular issues with foul weather.
Thanks in advance -

elight

flagmichael

Good questions, so-so answers 8^P

There is a lot of guessing about whether Toyota has done someting about the odd, undersized 12V aux battery. If they haven't, it isn't because we haven't griped enough! So far even the people who got to see the show car don't have an answer for that one.

Ditto tires. It is plain the show car has show wheels and the production models will get something else. Toyota has stuck by the Potenzas through thick and thin and I am going to guess the 2004 will still have them.

The paint also is something they would probably correct anytime they have a solution. There is not a great agreement that the paint chips worse than other cars or other Toyotas, but there are complaints. Ours (green metallic) appears about the same in that respect as our daughter's Accord (green metallic).

flagmichael

About snow and bad weather...

We have only had ours through one winter in the Arizona mountains (there's still snow on nearby Humphrey's Peak). We were debating whether to put snow tires on like we do with the rest of our cars but decided to try the stock tires. They have done well enough, better than our daughter's Accord with studded snows. We have had maybe three inches build-up on our residential road, packed snow on some roads, and slush on others. It handles all of that well, with the front wheel drive, nice ABS, an easily modulated accelerator and the pseudo-traction control that prevents the wheels from spinning and polishing the packed snow. Of course, ice is still a threat. I've seen footage of a tank sliding off an icy road!

koffedrnkr

as the owner of a 2001 VW passat...i've been a very happy camper. good build quality, very low emissions (ULEV with the turbo 4) and it's very comfortable. still, when i saw pictures and descriptions of the new prius, i became smitten. i love the idea and want very much to love the car...but i have a few general questions

1) cold weather is hard on batteries. how does the prius handle cold temperatures? does it have trouble starting? do you see more "turtle" warnings during the winter? does the car become more sluggish?

2) how do current owners like having the speedometer right under the window? are the A/C and audio controls easy to see and operate from the main view screen?

3) when it comes to acceleration...where is the prius' weakest spot? initial acceleration? interstate passing? getting to highway speeds?

4) how long and how easily can it maintain high spedd 60-80mph highway cruising?

5) any comments on steering responsiveness, seat comfort, or general build quality?

all answers appreciated!

john1701a

.
>> 12V battery

The actual problem revolved around preventing & diagnosing the problem, not much with the battery itself.

Dealers would turn on the computer without starting up the car, that would deeply discharge the battery causing damage to it (so it couldn't be fully charged anymore). The dealer didn't realize this and the unknowing new owner had no clue. Now awareness of this is growing. So the likelihood of it reoccuring is dropping.

The average owner hasn't been affected, it's only those few unfortunately soles.

.
>> tire problems

That (thankfully) is a thing of the past now. Much better replacement tires have been identified, owners have been reimbursed for the bad tires, and the new Prius will be using the better tires in the first place (they'll be Goodyear tire instead).

.
>> complaints about fuel economy

Lots of people don't have any idea that the EPA estimate isn't a realistic depiction of what you'll actually get. The measurements are very outdated standardized measurements intented only for the sake of comparison.

Did you know the EPA maximum speed during the test is 60 MPH, and only briefly at that? Driving faster greatly reduces MPG in all vehicles, not just hybrids.

Did you know that the EPA minimum tempature during the test is 68 F degrees? Tempertures below that have a PROFOUND impact on MPG in all vehicles, not just hybrids. Temperatures above that have a PROFOUND impact too, since A/C use in not including in the testing.

Since people never have a Multi-Display in their previous vehicle, they had no idea they weren't achieving the EPA value in that vehicle either.

.
>> I'd like current owners to offer opinions

After 52,800 miles of driving... I have *never* have a 12V battery problem. I have *never* had a tire problem. And my MPG is completely realistic. http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-data.htm provides lots of details. You see that over the last 3 years of driving in *MINNESOTA* the overall performance averaged to a very pleasing 44.8 MPG. So during those warm months, I am in fact get the EPA value. But that's probably because I don't need the A/C that much.

.
>> I'm also curious about snow-related operation

Prius unquestionably performs better in MINNESOTA than traditional vehicles. Even at -13 F degrees, the engine fires right up. Having such a massive battery-pack and a huge powerful electric motor (capable of propelling the vehicle all by itself up to 42 MPH) makes startup child's play. Traditional vehicle with a tiny battery and a tiny starter just plain cannot compare.

Heat availability is just a touch faster than with traditional vehicles. You can thank the emissions system for that. The catalytic-converter needs heat rapidly to clean exhaust, so the system was designed for that. And it is rumored to work even quicker in the new Prius.

Driving itself is wonderful. The short front-end makes the car very nimble. The slow RPM the motor can deliver helps you to avoid slipping. And when it can't, the computer-delivered traction-control kicks in.

I personally haven't needed snow tires over the last 3 years. But if I had to climb a steep driveway, switching to them in the winter is all that would be required.

JOHN

john1701a

.
>> 1) cold weather is hard on batteries.

Nope, it just reduce capacity. That's it.

.
>> do you see more "turtle" warnings during the winter?

I still haven't ever seen it. And I park my car outside while I'm at work when it's only 0 F degrees out all winter long.

.
>> 2) how do current owners like having the speedometer
>> right under the window?

You become very frustrated that automakers didn't offer that years ago!

Not having to low down and refocus to check your speed is fantastic. And never at any time, regardless of your height, will the steering-wheel or your hands ever block the view.

.
>> 3) when it comes to acceleration...where is the prius'
>> weakest spot?

It feels slow and sounds like the engine is struggling. That's why so many reporters falsely claim it is slow.

In reality, you won't experience any highway merging problems. I fly up the ramp and merge in effortlessly. And since the new Prius is 2 seconds faster, I think it's safe to say that even disbelievers will now have to admit there really isn't a problem.

As for accelerating off-the-line on a green light, you'll leave just about everyone in the dust everytime. The rapid response of the electric motor is wonderful. And the best part is, that's actually the most efficient way to accelerate with that type of hybrid system. So when you discover how easy Toyota made doing that to be, you'll find yourself routinely doing it.

.
>> 4) how long and how easily can it maintain high speed
>> 60-80mph highway cruising?

After about 400 to 500 miles, you'll have to stop for more gas.

Of course, you'll probably have to pee long before that.

Maintaining 80 MPH for several hours at a time is trivial. And since only the engine is needed to do that most of the time, the battery-pack will get charged along the way. So when yoy finally get off the highway, you'll be able to for awhile on just electricity.

.
>> 5) any comments on steering responsiveness

I've had to do several emergency manuevers over 51,800 miles of driving. The worst was when I was trying to pass someone while carrying a bike on back; a kayak laying length-wise across the road suddenly appeared. I steered around it without incident.

.
>> seat comfort

Comfy.

.
>> general build quality?

Best in class, according to J.D. Powers last week. And I agree with that completely.

JOHN

little_pogi

My sister owns a 91 Prius. She said that she brings it to a dealer for routine lube maintenance because it uses a special grade oil. How true is this? Since the ICE only kicks in only when instructed by the computer, what is Toyota's recomended mileage interval for oil changes? My sis also said that she dosen't have to pay the dealer for regular maintenance since Toyota takes care of this. Again, is this too good to be true? And will all of this good stuff carry over to the 04 model?

dudleyr

Didn't know they made a Prius in '91.

nippononly

flagmichael

Toyota specifies 5W-30 oil, and it can be hard to convince some service departments not to use 10W-30. It really is only an issue in really cold weather, but I think it pays to use the recommended oil.

Service intervals are 7500 miles, or 5000 under "severe" conditions: "driving on unpaved or dusty roads" or "repeated trips of less than five miles in temperatures below freezing."

The first five service intervals are "complimentary", as described on the inside of the front cover of the Prius service record book, "Passport to Performance." Replacements of filters based on inspection results are extra, a few dollars. The sixth service interval (45K miles) includes replacing the A/C filter, besides the every-time oil change and tire rotation. 60K is the first comprehensive service the owner pays for: air filter, engine coolant, inverter coolant and spark plugs. That regimen is called for every 30K miles or two years. Replacement of the timing chain is not called for in the 120K miles of scheduled maintenance... a relief for people like me who have had to replace timing belts.

It sure can sound too good to be true. My son's girl friend paid over $3K for service on her Kia in the first year... way more than the car payments! In order to keep up the 100K mile warranty she will have to pay for 33 scheduled services.

drmp

Glow plugs? What glow plugs. Diesel has gone through enormous evolution to the point that glow plugs are almost never needed. Have you heard of direct injection diesel? These are very popular now and has greater power. It needs glow plug to start only on a cold engine (early morning start), after that it starts right away at the first crank.