I should have mentioned what post I was replying to last time. I am replying to this statement by you (post 1196), daysailer:
"Since the present Prius is unlikely to recover its purchase price premium through fuel savings in the life of the vehicle, how do we know that the '04 will reach break-even?"
I think the statement I made will become clearer in this context. My main gripe is your vague "concept" of cost recovery.
A car of similar utility and better performance than the present Prius can be had for $4000-$7000 less than the Prius. At present fuel prices, that premium will not likely be recovered by fuel savings in the vehicle's lifetime and certainly not in a typical ownership cycle. A purchaser either buys the Prius (or other hybrids) for reasons unrelated to economics, or they are deluding themselves.
there is no other compact car available (at $20K or less) with SULEV emissions rating (prior to 2003), auto climate control (standard), keyless and alarm (standard), 3 years free maintenance and roadside assistance (standard), or navigation (available)...thalanor is right when he says there is nothing you can compare this to even if performance and utility are your only criteria...hence your cost comparisons do not seem valid.
This is a very old discussion...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
than in the dynamic attributes of the vehicle, you may reach a different conclusion as apparently you have. As for comparisons, is there another car with such meager performance as the Prius, even for $5k less? I wouldn't buy a vehicle if I thought that I'd need roadside assistance in the first 3 years of ownership nor would I expect that of any Toyota, so no real value there and whatever small amount I may save in oil & expendable parts purchase wouldn't be worth the hassle to take the car to a dealer during working hours. Is the maintenance cost for the Prius greater than normal? And you mention the availability of a nav system, but at what price? I'd sooner buy a Garmin portable unit that I can use in any car and costs less than $500 (if I found such gadgetry worthwhile). So we're left with its SULEV rating, which is very good, but not worth $5000 to me, particularly when I could obtain it in other cars that I find more desirable.
You can rationalize most anything and if your economic analysis of the Prius is of the form 'there is no other car EXACTLY like it therefore there is no basis for comparison therefore it is worth whatever it costs', you'll not likely accept my arguments.
> is there another car with such meager performance > as the Prius
Your "performance only" focus is weak, at best. Give it up. The 2004 Prius accelerates 0-60 in about 10.5 seconds, which is faster than a handful of other popular vehicles and more than what you need to get onto a highway anyway.
The fact that you continue to IGNORE all the extras that come STANDARD at the base price in Prius is a serious problem. The vehicles you are comparing prices to don't include them, so of course there's a big difference. Duh! But when you add it all up, the price-margin is realistic enough to justify based on the lower maintenance, gas savings, SULEV, and STEALTH.
Here's the list of some of the things that aren't included in the vehicles at the base prices you've compared to:
- "Stealth" (electric-only driving) - CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission) - Touch-Sensitive Liquid-Crystal Multi-Display - Anti-Lock Brakes - Integrated Immobilizer Alarm (w/ Master & Valet keys) - Cast Aluminum Alloy Rims - Power-Windows (that go all the way down in back) - Temperatures-Sensitive Climate-Control - Keyless-Entry Remotes (with "Panic" button) - Dolby Cassette, AM/FM Radio, 4 Speakers - Air-Conditioner - Power-Mirrors - Tilt Steering - Rear Defroster
Don't forget that the keyless in the 2004 Prius is probably better than any other system until you get to Mercedes and the similar technology that they use? Is that correct?
In reference to what Daysailer posts most of the time, I would like to link to another cite where people list the <url="http://www.hybridcars.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=123"> top 3 reasons</url> for why they bought a hybrid car. Interestingly, many of the top 3 reasons can also be quantified very well (in terms of...yes, you mentioned it...gas savings, but also amount of money not spent on repairs, amount of money saved by not going to the dealership for maintenance as often as other cars, amount of money saved by having the dealership waive maintenance costs the first few times, amount of money you save from tax credits (federal, state), emissions, amount of time saved by not going to the gas station as often, number of times a car breaks down (statistically) etc...). Maybe, just maybe, it is possible that some people have other (perhaps more progressive) criteria (which maybe reflects on their values) but also charitable values in addition to the standard old criteria that you seem fixated on.
A good used car of equal utility and any of a wide range of engine power can be had for $15K less than the Prius. If you are serious about value you can't be serious about a new car.
If somebody is buying a new car, they weigh a host of considerations - soberly or not - and make their choice. Greater acceleration than the Prius has was not even in our list... I can't for the life of me understand why so many people place so much emphasis on acceleration performance. We should have gotten over that in the '70s.
I don't use full throttle in our Prius more than a few times a week and *never* wish it had more power. Two of our freeway on-ramps are uphill at 7000 feet elevation and the Prius makes the speed limit on each of them well before reaching the traffic lanes, and without the noisy drama of most cars. So how much money should I pay for more power?
Payback period is meaningless for every personal car. They are "cost centers" and we know it. What is the payback period for fuel injection? For the metallic paint? The styling? The sound system? The transmission? Disc brakes? It's all about satisfaction, and the Prius does that for me more than any car I've owned in nearly thirty years.
automakers determine prices for cars is based partly on content, which is why all the content of the Prius IS relevant as soon as you start to make comparisons that include price.
If you want to talk about OTHER COMPACT CARS instead (regardless of price), then I would direct you to review performance stats for the Mini Cooper (non-S/C), a car raved about in most of the automotive press at its introduction, and which has comparable acceleration to Prius (is actually slower to most speeds below 50)...Prius is competitive with other compact models as well.
Again, among other compact cars, utility of Prius is very competitive - compare passenger volumes of other compacts and Prius comes up mid-pack. Same for cargo volume among compact sedans.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
you should review the data more carefully. By Edmunds own data, the Prius requires MORE THAN 50% LONGER to reach 60mph than the base Mini. Even the most wildly optimistic projections for the '04 Prius do not approach 8.5s.
And although many people seem to have a one-dimensional notion of vehicular performance, the Prius is deficient in the even more important area of handling dynamics. Its skid pad and slalom performance place it no better than a garden variety minivan of more than a decade ago (and worse than some). Some will say it only needs better tyres but since other cars achieve dramatically better performance than the Prius on the SAME OEM tyres, there's more wrong with the Prius than tyres. I hope that this has been addressed in the '04 Prius.
You can't use the word "wrong" to describe "not average".
Since average has been established as overkill, the basis of the debate is a problem.
We already know for a fact that the currently 0-60 acceleration time is fine. Classic Prius merges onto highways without any trouble. New Prius subtracts 2 seconds from that time. Being even faster should eliminate speed as any kind of issue now, but people still dwell on it since it appears on paper only to be inadequate. In real driving situations, that's just plain not true.
The tire/type slalom & skid tests are a bit misleading too. They were performed using the standard 35 PSI. Owners have found that's way too soft for Prius, since the car is much heavier than average. So we pump up it up to 42 PSI. That improves the performance. This fact is not even acknowledged in the tests, since they insist on keeping tire-pressure equal for "standard" testing (even though Prius isn't close to a "standard" weight). Adding air doesn't cost anything. So it is quite absurd that the benefits from it are ignored. And of course, if Toyota were to switch the OEM tire, results would improve even more... oh guess what, they're doing exactly that in 2004. (so there!)
Stop complaining about problems that don't actually exist.
What you have accepted as adequate for your purpose does not "establish" anything for the population at large. Like it or not, average suggests the population within which you must operate. Average is mediocrity. Since the Prius is below average I suppose that we have "established" that the Prius is less than mediocre.
The Mini previously mentioned is even more overweight than the Prius, given its smaller overall dimensions, yet it does not suffer the sub-par handling limits of the Prius.
No one has been able to prove that they *NEED* faster acceleration to merge onto a busy highway in a classic Prius.
Being average has nothing to do with *NEED*. Even though some vehicles have greater ability, does not in any way mean that they *NEED* it. In fact, it is in no way any indication that they ever use it either... hence, overkill.
To *WANT* more is different. And that's perfectly acceptable if you state it that way.
If the speed limit is 70 MPH and you always get to 70 MPH before reaching the end of the ramp, what is the benefit of faster acceleration?
The end result is the same.
Achieving 70 MPH at the middle of the ramp rather than near the end doesn't accomplish anything. The speed limit is 70 MPH and you are already going that fast.
There really isn't a benefit to faster 0-60 times... hence, overkill.
It makes sense that eventually an improvement ceiling would be reached. But since some people are in the "more is ALWAYS better" mindset, they can't grasp that concept.
I don't understand your fixation with "need/want" nor how you define it nor how it is relevant to an automotive purchase (or any purchase). You are apparently so enamored of the Prius that you have accepted it as automotive nirvanna and consider anything else excess, and for YOU that may be true. Others may have different requirements. If "need" is to be considered the bare minimum, do you "need" more than an efficiency appartment for shelter? Or a tent, or tarpaper covered box? Do you eat more than the minimal human dietary requirement for sustenance? Do you "need" a motor vehicle at all?
Dictionary.com defines need as "A condition or situation in which something is required or wanted". So much for need vs want!
I DO know that I don't "NEED" to spend $20K to obtain a vehicle with the dynamic performance of the Prius. And THAT is the point!
Okay guys I've been holding off on getting into this, but John I have to agree with Daysailor on this one:
Although I would never say there is something "wrong" with the Prius ('wrong' implies moral failure -- 'inadequate' would be better), I do feel that acceleration can be "a factor among factors" when choosing a car. I also have to say, that a greater-than 10-second 0 to 60 time is not always adequate.
Specifically, here in St. Louis two of the older interstates (64 and 70) have some very short merge/acceleration lanes in some parts of town. In my current car, which has a 0-60 in the high 9's, it is not possible to reach 60 by the merge point, and thus merges can be tricky in traffic. And with 3-4 people in the car, they're downright scary.
So I would have to say that yes, in some cases a quicker than 10-second time is *needed*. Or at least, it may be a significant factor in a car-buying decision. Just because someone says they want faster acceleration doesn't mean they are only looking to stoplight race and/or drive competitively--as you imply when you speak pejoratively about needs v. wants--the person's commute may simply call for more response than the Prius can muster.
That being said, I'm still looking forward to the 04 -- I think the difference in time will be slight enough that the Prius' positives will outweigh it for me. But I resent someone lecturing me (or anyone else) on what they "need" without knowing anything about the person's life.
> with 3-4 people in the car, they're downright scary. > > the person's commute may simply call for more response > than the Prius can muster
Yes, some people have special needs.
0-60 time alone does not indicate the car will have the needed punch available.
Since Prius delivers an unusually high amount of torque from the electric motor, even with a heavy load it doesn't get slowed down. That isn't always the case with a faster traditional car. Since the measurement was taken with only the driver in it, extra torque may not be available. The "faster" car could actually take longer than a Prius when it is heavily loaded.
So basing "power" on just the 0-60 time alone won't indicate the actual performance in all conditions.
If the "definition" of a word (like "need") is the final say of interpretation, how come different dictionaries have different descriptions for the same word?
... don't really matter very much when we are discussing opinions.
Sometimes I see people using dictionary definitions to somehow "prove" that one opinion is "right" and one is "wrong". Well, the very nature of an *opinion* is that the person who holds it is entitled to do so, quite regardless of what any or many dictionaries say about the words used to express it.
Whatever the dictionaries say, let's just keep in mind that each and every one of use is entitled to our own definitions of what we need, what we want, what matters and what doesn't. And it really doesn't make a lot of sense to try to convince others that THEIR definitions of what they need, want, what matters and what doesn't is somehow wrong.
Right?
:-)
Anyone know the answer to the 2004 Prius turning radius question?
I have been reading the messages on this web site for some time now. When the news of the 2004, Prius was released, this site was 'a buzz' with excitement and curiosity. That has since changed, as "daysailer" and "John1701a" volley back and forth with the pros and cons of investing in a Prius. Now it is my turn to add my two cents. I have had my Prius since December, 2000, and quite frankly I love it!
To "daysailer", I appreciate your comments and have found them both provocative and informative. However, for most 'Prius People', it isn't about the speed we obtain, but rather the message we hold for our future. The person who invests in a Prius is not likely to be interested in how fast she/he can accelerate onto a highway. Our interests, perhaps, center around the evolution of the automotive industry for the purpose of producing cleaner air for our posterity. We recognize there are faults with the current Prius and there will likely be faults with the newer version. We accept these faults, as we are Pioneers of sorts. We have chosen to take a chance on the Prius despite its downfalls, althougbeit few, because we want to send a bold message to the world... OUR FUTURE MATTERS! As a society, we need to move beyond the 'get there quick' mentality. It does not serve our higher purpose--safety and economy. Yes, I am bias toward the Prius. Since taking possession of this car, I have had numerous people jokingly kid me about my "electric car". I've been "educating" them about this car ever since. It's a job I do with great pride...a kind of 'Prius Pride', if you will.
As for "John1701a", you have been a great protector of the Prius. Thank you. However, those comments made by "daysailer" help to keep us honest and make all of us pause and think. Your responses are born out your personal experiences and research. I have visited your web site prior to purchasing my current Prius. It was/is a great resource! Your work does not go unrecognized.
To those of you considering a Prius, I urge you to consider the comments made here and then to take a test drive. It has been my experience that the Prius is the most conscious car ever created. Recognize too, that purchasing a Prius is more than buying a car... it's securing our future. KEEP IT GREEN, PRIUS PEOPLE!
> those comments made by "daysailer" help to keep us honest
Darn right!
Where else is there an opportunity to shake out facts & opinions like this?
Matters of importance tend to work their way to the top after awhile. It's just a matter of keeping the ball going. Some of my best speed rebuttal info has come from these very messages.
A fact that has stood strong is that Prius (specifically, the technology within) is unquestionably the best clean choice. No other vehicle can get MPG as good while still achieving a SULEV rating.
A fact that isn't questioned anymore is the reliability of Prius. After 3 years in the US and 5.5 years in Japan we are beginning to see that first hand. It isn't a concern, even with the extreme variety of conditions we can throw at it (hot, cold, mountains, +80 MPH cruising, etc).
A fact that causes fear for many is that Prius is being accepted, despite its non-typical qualities. The appeal of clean & efficient is stronger than they expected. The appeal of a roaring engine and the feel of acceleration isn't even a purchase factor; instead, there's quiet & smooth. The monster-size-fits-all concept is losing ground quickly. Things are becoming relistic.
The whole matter of 0-60 acceleration is absurd, so it's fun to poke at. I know for a fact that myself and all the Prius owners I know don't have a lick of trouble merging onto a highway. So no matter what claims are made, they simply don't apply to us. Some drivers of other vehicles in other parts of the country obviously have greater needs. That's fine. Just don't claim everyone else needs that too. It's well proven that isn't the case now. Performance has grown beyond what's required. We all knew that would happen someday. Focus is shifting to other vehicle purchase aspects. Prius fits that new mold.
The fact that we are now seeing PT Cruisers, Minis, Matrix & Vibes, Beetles, and more realistic-size SUVs become popular must really frighten some people. They "only" deliver "average" performance and none of those forking out money for them care. They're interested in the vehicle for other reasons.
I feel pretty darn good about the "keep us honest" messages. Nothing "wrong" with the Prius design has emerged. It has basically been proven to be a vehicle that gets the job done while delivering remarkably clean & efficient performance.
> I urge you to consider the comments made here and then > to take a test drive
All this really gets people thinking. The test drive experience provides the answers. The fact that sales continue to be strong reinforces the clean & efficient preference.
And lastly, since the specs for the 2004 Prius won't be released for over a month still, we need something to discuss. People keep asking for details though. That's a good indication that there's interest growing.
I thought we would compare apples to apples, so I used the manufacturer acceleration time for the Mini Cooper CVT (a useful car to compare, since so few cars have a CVT similar to Prius' transmission).
That time, as provided by Mini itself, is 10.4 seconds, for 0-62.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
that the major reason people are considering a Prius is the increased gas mileage and decreased emissions. Reliability helps. Increased cargo capacity helps. The one thing I can't compromise on is crash testing. Toyota ought to be able to achieve decent results on that. I'd buy a used one now if it's crash tests were better. Does anyone know if the new one will do better?
That hybrid vehicle technology is the best available to address our growing fuel consumption and emission issues is something on which we agree. Similarly, I agree that the '04 Prius appears to offer significant improvements toward becomming a competitive alternative to conventional vehicles. I certainly do NOT subscribe the the "bigger is better" philosophy and in fact find the Insight to be the most attractive hybrid BECAUSE it is a rare <2k lbm car, and offers the lowest fuel consumption on 4 wheels. If only it were being developed further as is the Prius, rather than being discontinued (sigh). But "more" has its place as well. More grip on the pavement is almost always better, as is more responsive and yes, more acceleration, at least as regards an individual's "needs".
In a more general sense "faster" is a necessitiy as population density increases. If more people are to travel between the same destinations over the same corridors, the flow rates must increase, else terminal gridlock is the inevitable result. Obviously, faster travel at higher density poses safety issues so some serious re-thinking is in order. More people inching along in individual automobiles is NOT the answer, no matter how low the fuel consumption or the emissions. Eventually we must wrestle with the larger issues of urban transportation and the automobile must assume a diminished role.
But as long as we have automobiles operating in ever higher density traffic, flow and safety are better served by a vehicle population that is more similar in capability, not one that is diverging. Promoting growth at either extreme of the spectrum results in a more divergent population. As an individual, so long as there is a significant difference among vehicles, I prefer the more advantaged portion of the spectrum. A "fast" car can be operated sedately but a slow car cannot exceed its limits, I also prefer choice. If the preponderance of the vehicle population were 36hp Beetles, the present hybrids would be more than adequate (even fast). As it is, the hybrids are JUST adequate at a MUCH more than adequate price. More cost is definitely NOT better!
Nippononly, NO car has a CVT similar to the Prius. The Prius transmission is probably THE most efficient automatic on the planet (excepting automated manuals a la SMG) and as regards efficiency is more comparable to a manual.
The fact that the Prius subordinates the driver's operating objectives to those of the manufacturer is not an advantage, in my view. Infinite gear ratios are only relevant to the extent that they affect efficiency and performance, which is what we were discussing.
I have some questions about the existing and 2004 CVTs. I am a Miata driver who prefers manuals to autos for three reasons:
1. The manual is more fun! However, as long as I have a manual sports car I can live with an automatic or CVT practical car.
2. Manuals are more reliable than autos. I know few people who have had manual tranny trouble other than clutch replacement. I also know few people who have not had trouble with their autos. How have the Prius CVTs held up?
3. Manuals are more efficient than autos. CVTs are theoretically more efficient still. However, real world implementations can reclaim those efficiency gains. For example, I think Nissan uses torque converters to couple motors to CVTs. Does the Prius use a torque converter?
I'm looking forward to replacing my second car - an old Grand Cherokee - with something much more efficient.
Is that a reference to being able choose which gear to be in regardless of what the RPM is, so you can hear & feel the roar of the engine?
Prius is the opposite end of the spectrum, "fun" has a completely different meaning. There's nothing to hear and nothing to feel. At times, the engine isn't even on. When you accelerate, the RPM doesn't always increase. And you'll *NEVER* feel any gears, because there aren't any.
>> Manuals are more reliable than autos.
And a Planetary-CVT is (theoretically) more reliable than a Manual. The thrust-connectors are permanently engaged. Wear should be reduced to a bare minimum as a result.
>> How have the Prius CVTs held up?
There is only one known Prius CVT failure ever, it occurred almost immediately after the first few miles were driven. So it's acceptable to call it a "DOA" rather than something that broke as a result of regular use.
>> more efficient
The tiny & frequent ratio changes that occur during routine stop & slow traffic, like on most people's daily commute, is very unrealistic (and sometimes not even possible) with a Manual transmission. CVT has a clear efficiency advantage in this situation.
>> Does the Prius use a torque converter?
There's no such primitive device in a Prius... hence the simplicity, reliability, and reduced transmission cost.
>>Is that a reference to being able choose which gear to be in regardless of what the RPM is, so you can hear & feel the roar of the engine?
Partly. Partly it is the feel of the stick when shifting - the Miata has an especially smooth and direct engagement. Partly it is the more direct connection between throttle and driveshaft - no torque converter to absorb torque. Partly it is the assurance that no silly automatic will make silly gear change decisions when I'm charging through curves.
I understand your concept of Prius fun as well. As long as I have a sports car for when I'm craving the more raw kind of fun, I will be content to enjoy the less dramatic, more sophisticated kind of fun a Prius can offer. A Prius would not be enough fun by itself, but a small two-seater fills just about none of my practical automotive needs.
I think when it comes time for me to choose my Jeep's replacement the biggest Prius concern will be the technology itself. I tend to buy cars new and drive them ten to fifteen years. With most cars you've got a pretty good idea what you're going to have ten years down the line when you buy them. With the Prius, I wonder, will I have a solid, reliable car in ten years, or an unreliable, expensive to maintain collection of experimental technology?
If you go to john's website: http://www.john1701a.com/ Under "Prius Stuff" are a bunch of video files, which includes a number of Prius commercials. You might've seen them, just not noticed them. (Or, you just don't watch the handful of stations that played them for a brief period...)
i too, am interested in xenon HID lights, but i have a few questions
1) are they self-leveling? in europe, HID's have to self-level to prevent a loaded down car from blinding other drivers.
2) what are the replacement costs for HID units? i know they're more expensive that halogens, but how much more?
3) are the new prius HID's for lowbeam, highbeam, or both?
i guess we'll just have to wait and see... i wish toyota would release a color and options list already. the car goes into production next month...surely they've decided all this by now.....
Not an expert by any means, but Volvo owners have complained of $300+ per light (much of that being labor to remove the bumper [!]) and a BMW owner complaining about $500+. In another Honda group an Acura owner claimed to be selling his car after the fourth set of HIDs were stolen as it sat in parking lots.
On the color/option list, a dealer says she knows the color selections, but is sworn to secrecy. She only has guesses about the price, placing the base price around $20-21K... her experience talking, not any actual knowledge.
is how (on any vehicle) are people stealing Xenon HID headlights in the first place?
Most composite headlights are attached so that you have to open the hood to remove the assembly and/or change the bulb. Are people just smashing the plastic lens, then stealing the glass leveling lens and xenon bulb from inside?
In any case, it's interesting -- not unlike the stolen air-bag craze from the mid 90's.
The Acura guy said the thieves were unfastening the bumper (from underneath?) Anyway, he was further unhappy that his car was not drivable after each theft. Can't say I blame him. IIRC he was in the Pacific Northwest, but it has been a few months and my brain gets leakier with age, so my accuracy on this whole thing may be spotty <8^}
on most cars (depends a little on design, but certainly most Acura models) it is pretty easy to remove the front bumper cover and remove the lights intact from below. You just need a quiet spot and 10 minutes to do the job...they are VERY EXPENSIVE, which is why there is such a hot market in stolen ones. I read a blurb somewhere in the last few months about how automakers are aware of the problem and are rushing to redesign their cars so that the HIDs are not as easily stolen.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Assuming Toyota made some design changes to the '04 Prius and made it more difficult to steal the HID, thives may not know that and may have cause hundreds, if not thousands of dollars worth of damages to the car. I was seriously considering getting that option but after reading the previous postings, maybe it's not worth it since I spend only 10% or less of my driving time at night. The navigation option may be something I need for my field job. Would anybody like to share some experiences or stories about theft on these built-in navigational devices.
I'm sorry I can't quote my source for this, but I've read an article about HIDs some time ago, and it went on to give out the advantages and disadvantages of HID headlights. What I found surprising is that HIDs are supposedly no better than normal halogens on rainy days. In fact, they could even be worse. Plus halogens aren't as expensive to replace than HIDs, and they don't blind your fellow drivers.
2001 US Prius do not come with the GPS/Navigation system (except for a few rare VIP cars). To fit the Toyota GPS/Nav parts to the 2001 to make the NAV-related dash buttons work, assuming new parts and not stripped from a Hawaiian or a 2002-2003 NAV-equipped Prius (say from a junkyard), it's about $4000 in new parts alone. Not including labor. There's the GPS-data DVD. There's the Navigation unit that sits under the front passenger seat. There's a whole new wiring harness to be replaced. Then there's the GPS antenna, which lives at the very back of the dashboard (have to remove everyting to get to it). A LOT of labor involved. Doubtful that someone has tried stealing the whole GPS system from one of the 2003-2003 Prius yet. (Not many of them on the road, in comparison to the huge number of Camrys that could be stripped for parts...)
Current 2001-2003 Prius do not come with HID headlights, so no theft info there either.
Comments
"Since the present Prius is unlikely to recover its purchase price premium through fuel savings in the life of the vehicle, how do we know that the '04 will reach break-even?"
I think the statement I made will become clearer in this context. My main gripe is your vague "concept" of cost recovery.
A car of similar utility and better performance than the present Prius can be had for $4000-$7000 less than the Prius. At present fuel prices, that premium will not likely be recovered by fuel savings in the vehicle's lifetime and certainly not in a typical ownership cycle. A purchaser either buys the Prius (or other hybrids) for reasons unrelated to economics, or they are deluding themselves.
This is a very old discussion...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
So we're left with its SULEV rating, which is very good, but not worth $5000 to me, particularly when I could obtain it in other cars that I find more desirable.
You can rationalize most anything and if your economic analysis of the Prius is of the form 'there is no other car EXACTLY like it therefore there is no basis for comparison therefore it is worth whatever it costs', you'll not likely accept my arguments.
> as the Prius
Your "performance only" focus is weak, at best. Give it up. The 2004 Prius accelerates 0-60 in about 10.5 seconds, which is faster than a handful of other popular vehicles and more than what you need to get onto a highway anyway.
The fact that you continue to IGNORE all the extras that come STANDARD at the base price in Prius is a serious problem. The vehicles you are comparing prices to don't include them, so of course there's a big difference. Duh! But when you add it all up, the price-margin is realistic enough to justify based on the lower maintenance, gas savings, SULEV, and STEALTH.
Here's the list of some of the things that aren't included in the vehicles at the base prices you've compared to:
- "Stealth" (electric-only driving)
- CVT (Continuously Variable Transmission)
- Touch-Sensitive Liquid-Crystal Multi-Display
- Anti-Lock Brakes
- Integrated Immobilizer Alarm (w/ Master & Valet keys)
- Cast Aluminum Alloy Rims
- Power-Windows (that go all the way down in back)
- Temperatures-Sensitive Climate-Control
- Keyless-Entry Remotes (with "Panic" button)
- Dolby Cassette, AM/FM Radio, 4 Speakers
- Air-Conditioner
- Power-Mirrors
- Tilt Steering
- Rear Defroster
JOHN
If somebody is buying a new car, they weigh a host of considerations - soberly or not - and make their choice. Greater acceleration than the Prius has was not even in our list... I can't for the life of me understand why so many people place so much emphasis on acceleration performance. We should have gotten over that in the '70s.
I don't use full throttle in our Prius more than a few times a week and *never* wish it had more power. Two of our freeway on-ramps are uphill at 7000 feet elevation and the Prius makes the speed limit on each of them well before reaching the traffic lanes, and without the noisy drama of most cars. So how much money should I pay for more power?
Payback period is meaningless for every personal car. They are "cost centers" and we know it. What is the payback period for fuel injection? For the metallic paint? The styling? The sound system? The transmission? Disc brakes? It's all about satisfaction, and the Prius does that for me more than any car I've owned in nearly thirty years.
If you want to talk about OTHER COMPACT CARS instead (regardless of price), then I would direct you to review performance stats for the Mini Cooper (non-S/C), a car raved about in most of the automotive press at its introduction, and which has comparable acceleration to Prius (is actually slower to most speeds below 50)...Prius is competitive with other compact models as well.
Again, among other compact cars, utility of Prius is very competitive - compare passenger volumes of other compacts and Prius comes up mid-pack. Same for cargo volume among compact sedans.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
And although many people seem to have a one-dimensional notion of vehicular performance, the Prius is deficient in the even more important area of handling dynamics. Its skid pad and slalom performance place it no better than a garden variety minivan of more than a decade ago (and worse than some). Some will say it only needs better tyres but since other cars achieve dramatically better performance than the Prius on the SAME OEM tyres, there's more wrong with the Prius than tyres. I hope that this has been addressed in the '04 Prius.
You can't use the word "wrong" to describe "not average".
Since average has been established as overkill, the basis of the debate is a problem.
We already know for a fact that the currently 0-60 acceleration time is fine. Classic Prius merges onto highways without any trouble. New Prius subtracts 2 seconds from that time. Being even faster should eliminate speed as any kind of issue now, but people still dwell on it since it appears on paper only to be inadequate. In real driving situations, that's just plain not true.
The tire/type slalom & skid tests are a bit misleading too. They were performed using the standard 35 PSI. Owners have found that's way too soft for Prius, since the car is much heavier than average. So we pump up it up to 42 PSI. That improves the performance. This fact is not even acknowledged in the tests, since they insist on keeping tire-pressure equal for "standard" testing (even though Prius isn't close to a "standard" weight). Adding air doesn't cost anything. So it is quite absurd that the benefits from it are ignored. And of course, if Toyota were to switch the OEM tire, results would improve even more... oh guess what, they're doing exactly that in 2004. (so there!)
Stop complaining about problems that don't actually exist.
JOHN
The Mini previously mentioned is even more overweight than the Prius, given its smaller overall dimensions, yet it does not suffer the sub-par handling limits of the Prius.
Being average has nothing to do with *NEED*. Even though some vehicles have greater ability, does not in any way mean that they *NEED* it. In fact, it is in no way any indication that they ever use it either... hence, overkill.
To *WANT* more is different. And that's perfectly acceptable if you state it that way.
JOHN
The end result is the same.
Achieving 70 MPH at the middle of the ramp rather than near the end doesn't accomplish anything. The speed limit is 70 MPH and you are already going that fast.
There really isn't a benefit to faster 0-60 times... hence, overkill.
It makes sense that eventually an improvement ceiling would be reached. But since some people are in the "more is ALWAYS better" mindset, they can't grasp that concept.
JOHN
Dictionary.com defines need as "A condition or situation in which something is required or wanted". So much for need vs want!
I DO know that I don't "NEED" to spend $20K to obtain a vehicle with the dynamic performance of the Prius. And THAT is the point!
> you have accepted it as automotive nirvanna and
> consider anything else excess
You are apparently so enamored with "more is ALWAYS better" that you consider anything else inadequate.
JOHN
That can't be true either, since I'm selling mine in 3 months. It will be replaced with a completely different model of Prius.
It's the technology within, not the vehicle itself.
So I will also be enamored with the RX-330 and the Escape (both SUVs, by the way) since they'll have that same technology.
JOHN
Although I would never say there is something "wrong" with the Prius ('wrong' implies moral failure -- 'inadequate' would be better), I do feel that acceleration can be "a factor among factors" when choosing a car. I also have to say, that a greater-than 10-second 0 to 60 time is not always adequate.
Specifically, here in St. Louis two of the older interstates (64 and 70) have some very short merge/acceleration lanes in some parts of town. In my current car, which has a 0-60 in the high 9's, it is not possible to reach 60 by the merge point, and thus merges can be tricky in traffic. And with 3-4 people in the car, they're downright scary.
So I would have to say that yes, in some cases a quicker than 10-second time is *needed*. Or at least, it may be a significant factor in a car-buying decision. Just because someone says they want faster acceleration doesn't mean they are only looking to stoplight race and/or drive competitively--as you imply when you speak pejoratively about needs v. wants--the person's commute may simply call for more response than the Prius can muster.
That being said, I'm still looking forward to the 04 -- I think the difference in time will be slight enough that the Prius' positives will outweigh it for me. But I resent someone lecturing me (or anyone else) on what they "need" without knowing anything about the person's life.
>
> the person's commute may simply call for more response
> than the Prius can muster
Yes, some people have special needs.
0-60 time alone does not indicate the car will have the needed punch available.
Since Prius delivers an unusually high amount of torque from the electric motor, even with a heavy load it doesn't get slowed down. That isn't always the case with a faster traditional car. Since the measurement was taken with only the driver in it, extra torque may not be available. The "faster" car could actually take longer than a Prius when it is heavily loaded.
So basing "power" on just the 0-60 time alone won't indicate the actual performance in all conditions.
JOHN
If the "definition" of a word (like "need") is the final say of interpretation, how come different dictionaries have different descriptions for the same word?
JOHN
Sometimes I see people using dictionary definitions to somehow "prove" that one opinion is "right" and one is "wrong". Well, the very nature of an *opinion* is that the person who holds it is entitled to do so, quite regardless of what any or many dictionaries say about the words used to express it.
Whatever the dictionaries say, let's just keep in mind that each and every one of use is entitled to our own definitions of what we need, what we want, what matters and what doesn't. And it really doesn't make a lot of sense to try to convince others that THEIR definitions of what they need, want, what matters and what doesn't is somehow wrong.
Right?
:-)
Anyone know the answer to the 2004 Prius turning radius question?
To "daysailer", I appreciate your comments and have found them both provocative and informative. However, for most 'Prius People', it isn't about the speed we obtain, but rather the message we hold for our future. The person who invests in a Prius is not likely to be interested in how fast she/he can accelerate onto a highway. Our interests, perhaps, center around the evolution of the automotive industry for the purpose of producing cleaner air for our posterity. We recognize there are faults with the current Prius and there will likely be faults with the newer version. We accept these faults, as we are Pioneers of sorts. We have chosen to take a chance on the Prius despite its downfalls, althougbeit few, because we want to send a bold message to the world... OUR FUTURE MATTERS! As a society, we need to move beyond the 'get there quick' mentality. It does not serve our higher purpose--safety and economy. Yes, I am bias toward the Prius. Since taking possession of this car, I have had numerous people jokingly kid me about my "electric car". I've been "educating" them about this car ever since. It's a job I do with great pride...a kind of 'Prius Pride', if you will.
As for "John1701a", you have been a great protector of the Prius. Thank you. However, those comments made by "daysailer" help to keep us honest and make all of us pause and think. Your responses are born out your personal experiences and research. I have visited your web site prior to purchasing my current Prius. It was/is a great resource! Your work does not go unrecognized.
To those of you considering a Prius, I urge you to consider the comments made here and then to take a test drive. It has been my experience that the Prius is the most conscious car ever created. Recognize too, that purchasing a Prius is more than buying a car... it's securing our future. KEEP IT GREEN, PRIUS PEOPLE!
Darn right!
Where else is there an opportunity to shake out facts & opinions like this?
Matters of importance tend to work their way to the top after awhile. It's just a matter of keeping the ball going. Some of my best speed rebuttal info has come from these very messages.
A fact that has stood strong is that Prius (specifically, the technology within) is unquestionably the best clean choice. No other vehicle can get MPG as good while still achieving a SULEV rating.
A fact that isn't questioned anymore is the reliability of Prius. After 3 years in the US and 5.5 years in Japan we are beginning to see that first hand. It isn't a concern, even with the extreme variety of conditions we can throw at it (hot, cold, mountains, +80 MPH cruising, etc).
A fact that causes fear for many is that Prius is being accepted, despite its non-typical qualities. The appeal of clean & efficient is stronger than they expected. The appeal of a roaring engine and the feel of acceleration isn't even a purchase factor; instead, there's quiet & smooth. The monster-size-fits-all concept is losing ground quickly. Things are becoming relistic.
The whole matter of 0-60 acceleration is absurd, so it's fun to poke at. I know for a fact that myself and all the Prius owners I know don't have a lick of trouble merging onto a highway. So no matter what claims are made, they simply don't apply to us. Some drivers of other vehicles in other parts of the country obviously have greater needs. That's fine. Just don't claim everyone else needs that too. It's well proven that isn't the case now. Performance has grown beyond what's required. We all knew that would happen someday. Focus is shifting to other vehicle purchase aspects. Prius fits that new mold.
The fact that we are now seeing PT Cruisers, Minis, Matrix & Vibes, Beetles, and more realistic-size SUVs become popular must really frighten some people. They "only" deliver "average" performance and none of those forking out money for them care. They're interested in the vehicle for other reasons.
I feel pretty darn good about the "keep us honest" messages. Nothing "wrong" with the Prius design has emerged. It has basically been proven to be a vehicle that gets the job done while delivering remarkably clean & efficient performance.
> I urge you to consider the comments made here and then
> to take a test drive
All this really gets people thinking. The test drive experience provides the answers. The fact that sales continue to be strong reinforces the clean & efficient preference.
And lastly, since the specs for the 2004 Prius won't be released for over a month still, we need something to discuss. People keep asking for details though. That's a good indication that there's interest growing.
JOHN
That time, as provided by Mini itself, is 10.4 seconds, for 0-62.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
In a more general sense "faster" is a necessitiy as population density increases. If more people are to travel between the same destinations over the same corridors, the flow rates must increase, else terminal gridlock is the inevitable result. Obviously, faster travel at higher density poses safety issues so some serious re-thinking is in order. More people inching along in individual automobiles is NOT the answer, no matter how low the fuel consumption or the emissions. Eventually we must wrestle with the larger issues of urban transportation and the automobile must assume a diminished role.
But as long as we have automobiles operating in ever higher density traffic, flow and safety are better served by a vehicle population that is more similar in capability, not one that is diverging. Promoting growth at either extreme of the spectrum results in a more divergent population. As an individual, so long as there is a significant difference among vehicles, I prefer the more advantaged portion of the spectrum. A "fast" car can be operated sedately but a slow car cannot exceed its limits, I also prefer choice. If the preponderance of the vehicle population were 36hp Beetles, the present hybrids would be more than adequate (even fast). As it is, the hybrids are JUST adequate at a MUCH more than adequate price. More cost is definitely NOT better!
Nippononly, NO car has a CVT similar to the Prius. The Prius transmission is probably THE most efficient automatic on the planet (excepting automated manuals a la SMG) and as regards efficiency is more comparable to a manual.
My gosh, I would have thought my point there would have been obvious. But hopefully this makes it clearer.
:-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The fact that the Prius subordinates the driver's operating objectives to those of the manufacturer is not an advantage, in my view. Infinite gear ratios are only relevant to the extent that they affect efficiency and performance, which is what we were discussing.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
1. The manual is more fun! However, as long as I have a manual sports car I can live with an automatic or CVT practical car.
2. Manuals are more reliable than autos. I know few people who have had manual tranny trouble other than clutch replacement. I also know few people who have not had trouble with their autos. How have the Prius CVTs held up?
3. Manuals are more efficient than autos. CVTs are theoretically more efficient still. However, real world implementations can reclaim those efficiency gains. For example, I think Nissan uses torque converters to couple motors to CVTs. Does the Prius use a torque converter?
I'm looking forward to replacing my second car - an old Grand Cherokee - with something much more efficient.
Is that a reference to being able choose which gear to be in regardless of what the RPM is, so you can hear & feel the roar of the engine?
Prius is the opposite end of the spectrum, "fun" has a completely different meaning. There's nothing to hear and nothing to feel. At times, the engine isn't even on. When you accelerate, the RPM doesn't always increase. And you'll *NEVER* feel any gears, because there aren't any.
>> Manuals are more reliable than autos.
And a Planetary-CVT is (theoretically) more reliable than a Manual. The thrust-connectors are permanently engaged. Wear should be reduced to a bare minimum as a result.
>> How have the Prius CVTs held up?
There is only one known Prius CVT failure ever, it occurred almost immediately after the first few miles were driven. So it's acceptable to call it a "DOA" rather than something that broke as a result of regular use.
>> more efficient
The tiny & frequent ratio changes that occur during routine stop & slow traffic, like on most people's daily commute, is very unrealistic (and sometimes not even possible) with a Manual transmission. CVT has a clear efficiency advantage in this situation.
>> Does the Prius use a torque converter?
There's no such primitive device in a Prius... hence the simplicity, reliability, and reduced transmission cost.
JOHN
Partly. Partly it is the feel of the stick when shifting - the Miata has an especially smooth and direct engagement. Partly it is the more direct connection between throttle and driveshaft - no torque converter to absorb torque. Partly it is the assurance that no silly automatic will make silly gear change decisions when I'm charging through curves.
I understand your concept of Prius fun as well. As long as I have a sports car for when I'm craving the more raw kind of fun, I will be content to enjoy the less dramatic, more sophisticated kind of fun a Prius can offer. A Prius would not be enough fun by itself, but a small two-seater fills just about none of my practical automotive needs.
I think when it comes time for me to choose my Jeep's replacement the biggest Prius concern will be the technology itself. I tend to buy cars new and drive them ten to fifteen years. With most cars you've got a pretty good idea what you're going to have ten years down the line when you buy them. With the Prius, I wonder, will I have a solid, reliable car in ten years, or an unreliable, expensive to maintain collection of experimental technology?
Is it Pree-us or Pry-us?
I don't remember ever seeing a TV commercial for this car, so I haven't heard how Toyota thinks it should be pronounced.
If you go to john's website: http://www.john1701a.com/
Under "Prius Stuff" are a bunch of video files,
which includes a number of Prius commercials. You
might've seen them, just not noticed them. (Or,
you just don't watch the handful of stations that
played them for a brief period...)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
1) are they self-leveling? in europe, HID's have to self-level to prevent a loaded down car from blinding other drivers.
2) what are the replacement costs for HID units? i know they're more expensive that halogens, but how much more?
3) are the new prius HID's for lowbeam, highbeam, or both?
i guess we'll just have to wait and see... i wish toyota would release a color and options list already. the car goes into production next month...surely they've decided all this by now.....
On the color/option list, a dealer says she knows the color selections, but is sworn to secrecy. She only has guesses about the price, placing the base price around $20-21K... her experience talking, not any actual knowledge.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Most composite headlights are attached so that you have to open the hood to remove the assembly and/or change the bulb. Are people just smashing the plastic lens, then stealing the glass leveling lens and xenon bulb from inside?
In any case, it's interesting -- not unlike the stolen air-bag craze from the mid 90's.
IIRC he was in the Pacific Northwest, but it has been a few months and my brain gets leakier with age, so my accuracy on this whole thing may be spotty <8^}
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
system (except for a few rare VIP cars). To fit
the Toyota GPS/Nav parts to the 2001 to make the
NAV-related dash buttons work, assuming new parts
and not stripped from a Hawaiian or a 2002-2003
NAV-equipped Prius (say from a junkyard), it's
about $4000 in new parts alone. Not including labor.
There's the GPS-data DVD. There's the Navigation
unit that sits under the front passenger seat.
There's a whole new wiring harness to be replaced.
Then there's the GPS antenna, which lives at the
very back of the dashboard (have to remove everyting
to get to it). A LOT of labor involved. Doubtful
that someone has tried stealing the whole GPS system
from one of the 2003-2003 Prius yet. (Not many
of them on the road, in comparison to the huge
number of Camrys that could be stripped for parts...)
Current 2001-2003 Prius do not come with HID
headlights, so no theft info there either.