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Comments
> during the test is 68 F degrees? Tempertures
> below that have a PROFOUND impact on MPG in all
> vehicles, not just hybrids. Temperatures above
> that have a PROFOUND impact too, since A/C use
> in not including in the testing.
> Since people never have a Multi-Display in
> their previous vehicle, they had no idea they
> weren't achieving the EPA value in that vehicle
> either.
I take issue with this statement. Any astute (or compulsive) person can trak whether they are beating EPA values (or missing them).
My current car (a 97 model, V6, automatic) has no onboard system to report fuel consumption. But I've always logged how many gallons of gas I buy, and how many miles I've driven. The EPA values for my car are 19 city and 28 highway. I routinely achieve 24 in my usual driving, and can achieve 31-33 on those rare purely highway trips, even considering it's an automatic, 6 years old, and I love running the AC.
So I think it's false to leave the impression that no-one exceeds the EPA values. True they are only estimates, but they should be possible to achieve for any vehicle.
>> they are beating EPA values (or missing them).
But that only provides a tank-by-tank calculation. The Multi-Display in Prius also provides 6 rolling 5-minute summaries, a running average, and an immediate measurement. That type of detail is far more informative.
>> I routinely achieve 24 in my usual driving
What's your annual average? Even if you ignored the affects of temperature completely, you still can't account for the fact that winter-formula gasoline is less efficient. That all by itself will drop MPG.
JOHN
> calculation. The Multi-Display in Prius also
> provides 6 rolling 5-minute summaries, a
> running average, and an immediate measurement.
> That type of detail is far more informative.
Of course, the added information would be helpful, but it's really just gravy. Tank-by-tank comparisons are very useful, especially for those whose weekly drives have little variation.
Also, if one keeps a log, total miles can be divided by total gallons purchased to provide an annual or lifetime average.
> What's your annual average? Even if you ignored
> the affects of temperature completely, you
> still can't account for the fact that winter-
> formula gasoline is less efficient. That all by
> itself will drop MPG.
In the winter I usually see an average of 21-22 MPG. Less than spring or summer, but still over the EPA city rating.
But I think the point here is, for most vehicles the EPA estimates are not that hard to meet. Certainly one can't expect to exceed the highway number by much (if at all); but unless you're stoplight racing at every light, averaging between the city and highway numbers should be no problem for most drivers.
turn at speeds over 42mph. However, the engine
doesn't have to be burning fuel at that time...
(I've got a CoastalETech Engine Run Indicator on
my Prius - a little LED comes on whenever the fuel
pump is on - signifying that the ICE is burning
fuel.)
On the highway, it really depends on what the
highway terrain is like, and how much you have to
speed around someone in front of you. I've gone
1-2 mile stretches at 55mph (speed limit - cruise
control set) on a gentle MA downhill highway section
where there was no gas going to the engine (although
the engine is still turning). Lots of regen going
to the battery, though. Of course, rapid acceleration,
say for passing while going uphill, you'll get a
high-RPM engine with electric assist. On a flat-ish
MA highway with CC on, if you can believe everything the
Prius' energy monitor tells you, normally it's just
the gas engine providing motive force, or the gas
engine providing motive force AND charging the
battery pack. Occasionally (for gradual uphills,
usually) the electric motor will kick in and help
the gas engine out, but... I don't take "highways"
very often, and I don't spend my time driving
watching the screen...
an option on the Prius (in the US - required in
other countries, like Canada). Just don't order
your Prius with the factory-installed option.
Otherwise, there are ways to defeat the DRLs if
you really don't like them. Some car insurance
places will give you a discount if you have them,
though.
(Living in MA, and usually taking state highways
(aka backroad highways, highest speed limit sign
is 45mph, usually 30mph if that) where you've got
trees or buildings alongside the 2-lane road, on
the grey/cloudy days, foggy days, or if the weather
is precipitating, it's really helpful to see the
oncoming cars if they've got their headlights on,
dosen't matter what color their car is, on grey
days all cars look grey from a distance (if you
see the car at all - they blend in). On all my
cars, I use "poor man's DRLs" (even if the car has
DRLs) - I turn the headlight switch on when I
start the car, turn the lights off when I get out -
that way, I'll have both front AND rear lights on.)
1) prius options: i've heard references to...
a) tire monitoring system
b) DVD navigation system
c) keyless entry system
d) dual side & head airbags
e) 6 disc in-dash changer
f) bluetooth cellphone integration
g) driving lights?
2) colors - i've heard and seen nothing beyond the silver prototype
3) warranty - same or different?
so many questions...so few answers. come on, toyota! give us the skinny...
How much more do you actually expect them to provide when production doesn't even begin until July 1st and deliveries to the very first customers about 6 weeks later?
After all, they've already provided more detail than other new vehicles get in advance.
Also, knowing the details will make the delivery seem to take even longer. Don't put yourself through that kind of agony. Kick back and read some of the technical documents Toyota has provided (something else beyond what you'd get from other automakers). There's a really sweet 24-page PDF that gives great details on THS-II in the 2004 Prius.
JOHN
Some comments:
1. (a) all U.S. market cars have to have tire pressure monitoring beginning 2004. It will be a new idiot light on the dash.
(b) Prius already has NAV - was your emphasis on DVD-based?
(c) Toyota has anounced it will have keyless entry AND START as an option.
3. word has it that Toyota will warrant the battery pack for the life of the vehicle with the new ones. This might fall under the heading of "wait and see" though.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
> great details on THS-II in the 2004 Prius
Can you tell us where to find this PDF? Is it hidden in the Toyota flash site somewhere?
Thanks.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/IRweb/special_rep/pdf/specialreports_12.p- df
JOHN
Predicting the demand is nearly impossible, especially since advertisements have already begun. In your particular area, you may get lucky and be able to buy one immediately, you may have to wait. There's simply no way of knowing what options people will want and if they will match what the dealer decided to order.
>> will Toyota stick to the fixed pricing policy for the new Prius?
That ended over a year ago when the order process ended. With Prius now on sitting on lots just like other vehicles, the dealer has the option to price as he/she pleases. That means some people get discounts, some pay sticker, and some pay a premium.
In short, good luck.
JOHN
Thanks
while we were there, we test drove a 2003 model. here are a few thoughts and observations:
1) i thought not having a tradition instrument cluster would take getting used to. it did. about 10 seconds. having the speedo right under the windowshield is terrific.
2) i felt very tall when seated. i even checked to see if the seats had a height adjustment..because i felt i was reaching down to drive the car. this may just be a matter of positioning.
3) driving was quiet and pleasant. with the AC running and 3 people in the car, acceleration was fine. it's not a hot rod..but merging onto the freeway was no big deal. steering was very light and the car was very maneuverable. fit and finish seemed very good - very much in line with toyota's mainstream products.
4) as many have stated...the center armrest was very low..too low to be of much good.
5) i like having actual HVAC controls on the dash (like the 2003 models). i'm not sure i'm going to like the 2004's virtual touch screen controls, but i could be wrong.
everything considered, it was a great test drive. my favorite "feature" was the lack of a traditional center console between the driver and passenger's side. i tend to drive rather bowlegged, and in my car...my right knee is always rubbing, banging up against the center console. in the prius..it has all the room it wants. i can't wait for the 2004.
The federal mandate for low-tire warning systems in '04 vehicles is because of the 90s rollovers of Explorers - funny, because many of those occurred with the tires at manufacturer-recommended inflations.
I wish people were just better at maintaining their cars. It takes so little trouble to check tire inflation from time to time. Now we are going to have these new gadgets on the cars that will raise the price of all new vehicles. Not to mention that since many work on rotation differentials between the wheels, as these new vehicles age there will be all sorts of problems as people replace only two tires at a time, and the warning lights all start coming on and staying on.
OK, rant over. If the new tire pressure warning systems help save lives, they are a good thing.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
kinda interesting....
from a purely laymans guesstimate, i'd think it wouldn't cost too much to put it in on top of a tire monitoring device. after all, dirt cheap compressors can be had for less than $10. from there, it would just be a matter of incorporating air hoses or pipes thru the axles and connect to the hubs with rubber bushing that seal by pressure when mounting wheels. from the center another hose runs and screws to the air valves of a conventional tire.
coffee drinker made exactly my point. i noticed around the same difference in tire pressure due to air temp. last winter here in ottawa, we've had as much as 20 deg C swings in temp. i'd set my tires to 42/40 early in the morning as recommended, but after an hours drive when the tires heated up (which seat of the pants observation adds another 4psi to tire pressure on top of that), i'd have to bleed air out due to the harsh ride.
since then, i've learned to set it to 41/39 at the time i most often use the car. this way even when it deflates at night or inflates at peak, it is still within the comfort zone. still, a self-inflating tires would have kept my prius in the most efficient pressure. (imagine how unsafe the poor chap who sets 32/30 in the warmest time of day?).
oh and btw nipponly, it's usually the people who maintain their vehicles well that do complain on tire pressure. the slobs normally don't notice.
Remember, they want to keep Prius as light as possible.
Not to mention the air pressure monitoring system in the Prius is not the sophisticated one you are envisioning. It merely checks all four tire rotation speeds using the ABS system - if it sees one rotating slower or faster, it knows that one is not at the same pressure as the others.
Only very expensive cars have individual sensors at each tire to check air pressure.
Did you know that just driving on the freeway for ten miles will increase the tire pressure in your tires by 3-4 psi (even if the ambient temperature remains constant)? Car manufacturers know this, and that is why their recommended inflation pressures are only to be set and checked when the tire is completely cold (not driven yet today, or driven less than a mile).
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
i don't think it would make that much weight diff. say maybe about 8 lbs more.
your point on the tire pressure sensor do complicate things, i guess i didn't think of that... hmmm.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Sure, it can do that, but it's a pretty expensive way to do it for a vehicle (like the Prius) that will never leave blacktop or concrete. I just don't see many people forking over the $$.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
87 octane. (85 octane for high altitudes.)
Using a higher octane is not only a waste of money, but it can sometimes trigger a fuel warning. That didn't happen to me when I tried 90 octane for 1262 miles back in October 2000 (details at http://john1701a.com/prius/prius-data.htm ) but I didn't notice a MPG improvement either. The Honda hybrids do actually run better with higher octane though.
JOHN
http://carsontoyota.com/html/requestprius.html
This dealership in California is right next to the shipping port and has sold a lot of Prius in the past. So they know they are capable of selling the first few delivery allotments they get at sticker price. And there are a number of people that have already agreed to a purchase that way, without ever seeing the Prius.
Why wouldn't Toyota approve of this? It's not like the dealer is gaining by high markups from people willing to pay just to get a 2004 Prius right away. They are selling at sticker price. That's very fair.
JOHN
But will Carson Toyota get the first shipment. Maybe yes since they are about 2 miles from the huge Toyota depot in Long Beach. However, Cerritos Toyota (about 7 miles away) or Longo Toyota (about 20 miles away) may get more shipments and more likely offer prices below MSRP.
That is an interesting thing to say about a PRIUS, which is priced at the market average.
Imagine having enough money to purchase a vehicle much bigger than what you actually need that guzzles gas like it's water... Hmm? Oh wait a minute, lots of people do that! Just look at how many very large SUVs are on the road now. They all cost quite a bit more both to purchase and to feed.
JOHN
I think as far as the value comment, there is enough information now to know what one would be getting for one's money with the '04. I do wonder how long the '04 will command full MSRP in this down economy. My guess would be, not very long.
As to stealth mode, it varies as a result of many factors. The '04 will probably have a "bigger" stealth mode range than the current one, since it is designed with more range for the electric motor.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
thanks.
daysailer: many people interested in Prius are not merely calculating the fuel savings in $$ to determine if it is worth it, but if you are, it would be safe to reckon on fuel economy at least as good as the current gen. As far as MSRP, I believe the person posting that had secured a purchase for an '04 stated MSRP was not given, but rather only a broad range. As far as information, Toyota's promotional literature has always been on the conservative side, so I would not worry that their claims for the vehicle will be fulfilled, i.e. combined fuel economy around 50 mpg, acceleration and braking comparable to a 4-cyl Camry, and of course there are already many pictures of the car available from the show car, which was production-ready.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's always good to be somewhat critical. So you do pose some good criteria to consider. You quote is normally what I say to religious fanatics who try to prove to the world that their religion is the only right one. That aside, when you talk about cost recovery I am not sure I can objectively agree with you.
Between the HCH and a Honda Civic SE, cost recovery comparison may be possible because there are 2 comparable car models. Generally speaking, the major difference is the propulsion system. We can therefore largely attribute the difference in price to the difference in the propulsion system (although there ARE other differences also). Cost recovery then is possible to determine. Because we can measure how long it takes to recuperate the difference in cost, cost recovery is relevant.
My first question to you then is what do you want to compare the Toyota Prius 2004 against? There is no such thing as a Prius without a hybrid power train. You could compare the Prius 2004 to other mid-size sedans but the comparison will be very blurry. There are huge differences in production techniques, in performance, in safety ratings and features, insurance costs, resale value etc. In short, we would be comparing apples to oranges. Because of these differences it is not possible to put an exact "over-price value" on the hybrid component parts.
I also want to ask you if you buy a car on solely based on price. You could if you insist just compare the price of two cars and totally neglect all other aspects such as the ones mentioned earlier. In that case, you would most likely end up with a cheapo Kia, but I assume you don't have one right? Why is that? Evaluating cars mainly by overall cost and maintenance cost solely is not what a smart car buyer would do. You probably look at performance. But how much worth are 10 more hp? What about an additional option like sun-roofs. Can you calculate the cost recovery for a sun-roof? Other people will also look at safety ratings. At this time, you then have to wonder how much money is safety worth? It's not really possible to put any price on safety except priceless, right?
As objective as we try to be there is often times more subjectivity than we are aware. Why did you then end up with (hypothetically) an SUV or BMW instead of the Kia? You decided for yourself that it was "worth" the extra money although you wouldn't be able to come up with a detailed calculation. This proves that "you have abandoned objective criteria" from a cost recouperation perspective.
In summary, your idea of cost recovery is something to consider sometimes, but in the case of the Prius 2004 it is irrelevant. People who are interested in the Prius do not buy the Prius because they hope to recoup this mysterious cost you talk about. They do it because a.) the car speaks to certain values they hold, b.) it performs adequately, and c.) it is sufficiently safe in their opinion. This is pretty much the same as the purchase of any car if you think about it. Mercedes are usually prestigious cars of the upper class, BMWs also but speak more to the younger audience, and Prius cars appeal to people who think ahead in time to realize that they want to have a minimal impact on the environment (amongst other things).
If we are to discuss the merits of a vehicle (any vehicle), we must consider those things that are indeed attributes of the VEHICLE, rather than abstract emotional reactions of some to the vehicle.
As for mystery, there is nothing mysterious about the Prius' price. $20k is a lot to pay for a car that delivers performance near the bottom of the spectrum. Will the '04 improve upon that? I certainly hope so, but the degree remains to be seen and the rest of the market is not stagnant.
The Prius is the first new car we've bought in nearly 20 years. I favor cars with at least 80K miles, preferably at least 100K. At that point it is obvious what kind of care they have had and what kind of service they have given. The only time it went wrong was with the 84 Nissan 300ZX I traded in for the Prius - I never guessed the electrical system would become an intermittent nightmare so suddenly. But even at that, $2300 dollars depreciation and maybe $1000 for parts over 8 years is a good value. Factor in low insurance costs (no comprehensive/collision, no performance car surcharge for a ten year old car) and lower licensing costs and, well.
We chose the Prius not only for operating economy (as new cars go) but for the extra bennies: 3 yrs roadside service, nearly 40K miles scheduled service free of charge, outstanding warranty coverage on the hybrid system. Then there is the pleasure of driving it. All selfish reasons, but that's how it was. After half a year we are absolutely in love with it.
Mike P