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Drew
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Vans and Aftermarket & Accessories message boards
In 1998 I leased a 98 GC ES, fully loaded with leather and all, and I am getting ready to return it in 2 weeks with 300 miles under the allowed 45K. In three years of ownership and 45K of miles, I had nothing but pure pleasure with this car and almost no problems. I say "almost" because the only time the van went to the dealer was very early on to try and find a very subtle and muffled rattle coming from the lower dashboard. This brief sound shows up on rare occasion when laboring uphill and under power. They could not find anything to fix, and the problem was not really all that troublesome or frequent to be a source of irritation for us. Other than that, we had no trouble - no leaks, squeaks, failed components, bad transmissions, etc. - just normal maintenance.
Now we are facing the tough question: Do we go for another 2001 GC or the Ody? Reading all posts, it seems neither!! Our own experience with the 98 GC is positive, but the 2001 is also a fairly different van as I understand it. The Ody has the Honda name behind it, but also a bunch of owners with a bunch of complaints. What to do????
Is it all in the luck of the draw? And is it not just a sad fact that manufacturers of vans in this $30K+ price range have no clue on how to make vehicles with consistent reliability and earn our trust in the process?
WHO CAN I CONTACT TO VOICE MY DISPLEASURE?
Also, we just got the T+C back from the shop. The intake manifold was indeed leaking. The dealership fixed it better than new, but it was still a hassle to bring the car in, get a rental, come back to pick it up, etc. Now I have to keep an eye on the front valve cover gasket that appears to be leaking. Argh.
Just wanted to tell you that when I reached 45K I complained about the front bouncing too much (it wasn't)= new struts $50. At 76K I complained about a noisy belt sound(it was)=new water pump and power steering pump $50. At the same time I asked Dodge to check my transmission for slipping(it wasn't)=rebuild transmission for the same $50. At the same time the dealer tried to sell me brakes/rotors/wires/spark plugs ($800) which I Didn't need.
I did need to complain 5 times until I got a new radio-finally got that for the same $50. Also had (needed)generator, gas tank sending unit, window actuators, wiper motor, other items replaced under extended warranty.
I will continue complaining until I reach 99K or sell the van.
I will definitely buy another Dodge mini van in a year or 2.
My gas station mechanic claims it's the body control module, which costs at least $400. They also believe lots of dealers are replacing this under warranty, even if the car is beyond warranty. Anyone have any luck getting this replaced for free?
You stated:
I have 80,000 miles on my 96 EL and still love the way it looks and drives. I paid $1000 (Chrysler) in 1996 and have received over $3,000 worth of warranty work to date. Just wanted to tell you that when I reached 45K I complained about the front bouncing too much (it wasn't) new struts $50. At 76K I complained about a noisy belt sound(it was)=new water pump and power steering pump $50. At the same time I asked Dodge to check my transmission for slipping (it wasn't)=rebuild transmission for the same $50. At the same time the dealer tried to sell me brakes/rotors/wires/spark plugs ($800) which I Didn't need. I did need to complain 5 times until I got a new radio-finally got that for the same $50. Also had (needed) generator, gas tank sending unit, window actuators, wiper motor, other items replaced under extended warranty.
I will continue complaining until I reach 99K or sell the van.
I will definitely buy another Dodge mini van in a year or 2.
Why would you want to buy another piece of crap? Are you proud of the fact that you had to have it in the shop so many times? We have 86,000 miles on the van and have had it in for repairs as much, if not more than you (the transmission had to be replaced at about 24,000 miles; the roller on the engine that hods the serpentine belt has now broken twice and is not covered by the warranty) and I am definitely not proud of that fact, or that I purchased a 1996 Chrysler T&C. In March of 96 it had the most features at the time and that is the main reason we purchased it . If I were to have to buy another mini van today, it would either be the Toyota Sienna or the Honda Odyssey. I too purchased the extended warranty with the $50 deductible and have had the same and more problems as you have had. Want to know what I found out late last year from Chrysler when I called to make a complaint about (extended) warranty coverage (actually a lack thereof)? We could have gotten an extended warranty that covered everything with no deductible, only the dealer did not offer it!
While it rides nice, there is a great deal of wind noise and it has been too much trouble for what it cost.
No matter how sexy Chrysler makes cars and vans look, until the Chrysler engineers learn something from the Daimler-Mercedes engineers, I refuse to buy another Chrysler product.
In Jan of 2000 I replaced my Ford Ranger pick-up with a 2000 Honda Accord V-6, I shopped around allover the Internet and various dealers and paid only $55 over invoice. It now has 27,000 miles on it with not an ounce of trouble. When it comes times to replace the Chrysler T&C, we will probably go for the Acura MDX (we need the seating) or the equivalent Honda branded vehicle if it is available.
The worst investment one ever makes is in a car. Why buy something that you know will cost you more in the long run, regardless of the initial low price.
No I not crazy!! Every car made today has its share of problems. Yes I bought insurance for $1,000 financed over 5 years=$200/yr. In the real world very few companies know how to spell PRIDE when manufacturing/building/selling its product. The only word they know is PROFIT-at the expense of the consumer. As consumers we must protect ourselves against the SECOND BEST QUALITY that most companies practice.
I was lucky enough to find a Dodge dealer 5 minutes from my home who is greedy enough to bill the warranty work to Chrysler.
I am sure that many Chrysler/CM/Ford owners have few problems. We seldom hear from them.
My point is to find the best car for you and protect yourself with an extended warranty. Until PRIDE replaces PROFIT as #1 we will all encounter these shortcomings in all cars-US/JAPANESE/ETC.
Dave...
www.lemonaidcars.com (Canadian site, but with quite a bit of info on DaimlerChrysler van defects and trying to remediate them).
Another independent site (the owner successfully sued DaimlerChrysler over a defective A604 unit):
http://badtrans.webprovider.com/home.htm
jca1013: Check out Oct '99 Consumer Reports article on "Hidden Warranties"
See the following links, especially the first one. You would think a so called Chrysler master mechanic would at least know how to spell Dexron.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Chryslers_MiniVans/message/691
http://www.allpar.com/fix/trans.html
http://www.autosite.com/garage/repairqa/ques123.asp
http://www.carshowtomt.com/tc/?article=Effects_of_Heat
http://www.autoshop-online.com/cchtml/prev.fac.cons.html
.
You did it, U Won ! Worldwide consumers have paid there hard earned money and you provided worldwide consumers with the worst Engineered vehicles on Earth...
Got to hand it to Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth you have Won beaten all your consumers.
Wise old saying you can't read a book by its cover :O)
Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth great looking vehicle unfortunately for the unsuspecting consumer even to date Transmission failure, head gasket failure , too many more serious problems Etc...
Just read this Newsgroup 2% Satisfied , 98% Unsatisfied . Surf the internet U will find 100s of thousands of Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth vehicle owners that are Big Losers. Telling there Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth vehicle Horror stories.
Now that Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth consumers have read the book by owning one of the worst Engineered vehicles on Earth. Consumers worldwide learned a costly but valuable lesson.
Now we have come to realize. Yes Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth they are the Winners.
Yep we the "Consumers of Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth vehicles are the BIG LOSERS" !
Were losing vehicle trade in, Value its Awful.
Quality Automobile Dealers don't want your Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth vehicle offering 50% of Galves Trade in if in Mint Condition.
Even Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth Dealers are offering 50% of Galves. Now we are driving around in a nearly worthless Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth vehicle and paying for Major repairs :O(
Its not going to get any better cause Smart Consumers are not Buying a New or even thinking of buying a used Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth vehicle.
We sure learned a Valuable Lesson > Never again buy Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth vehicles. For those few Die Hards remember( Only a Fool Loses Twice )
Rejoice fellow Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth vehicle consumers now it is our turn to Win.
Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth your profits are gone, Stocks are dropping to an all time low Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth is just hanging on by a thread bankruptcy is near Hooray - Yeah !
Now how does it feel to be a LOSER ! Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth :O)
Worldwide automotive consumers buy smart be a Winner don't become a Loser like the rest of us who owned or still own the worst engineered vehicles on Earth.
Let Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Plymouth become the final Loser.
As far as problems, let's see, Chrysler has sold how many millions of these vans? Statistically there should be more problems reported on these boards than on the Honda's. It is one of those things where the only people who post are the ones who have something to complain about.
That being said, check out the maintenance costs on a Honda vs. a Chrysler van.
Who's the guy in post #616? I've seen the exact same post on other boards.
I for one would love a used 300M if I was in the market. Great cars. Who cares if most people buy what everyone else does?
I have had my 98 Plymouth Voyager in for repair of this problem 4 times now. It is an intermittent problem and numerous things have been done to correct the problem.
When I turn the delay wiper on to various settings (and I've tried them all), they may swipe a few times, then it appears the wiper "jumps" and quits. At this point, none of delay wiper setting work, and I need to turn wipers off and then back on. When I turn the wipers off, the blades will swipe windshield from 2-4 times before shutting off.
I am becoming very frustrated. Any suggestions? I have an appointment for next week to have technicians look at vehicle AGAIN.
CR lists Caravan '93-'97 and Grand Caravan '93-'97 (and Plymouth Voyagers) as Used Cars To Avoid due to reliability ratings. On the other hand, except for the new model problems of '96, each year has generally had better reliability than the previous especially for transmission problems. Both the '98 and '00 have average problem rates for transmission.
I am a satisfied owner of a '95 Caravan and I pay extra attention to the transmission service, both interval of 15K and fluid and I added a transmission cooler for $30 and 1 1/2 hour work.
Well our first troubles began days after we drove it off the lot. To our surprise the gas gauge would only show about 15 gal. of gas? Hmmmm 20 gal. tank... so back it went for a new gas tank and sending unit (3 days). while it was there I had them re-twist the rear passenger seat belts, they were installed backwards ? later that summer ( we bought the van in April ) The A/C gave off the most foulest of smells just as you started it up...ok back it went for a deorderizing 1 day. In October with less then 8K miles the windshield wipers would go on by themselves (front) sooo back it went for a new switch...1 day. Heres where the fun begins right after the winter of 97 we started hearing a squeaking sound, I took it in and the service rep informed me that the water pump needed to be replaced...1 day. when I drove the van back home the squeak was still there, when I called to inquire why, I was told that it made no noise when the mechanic road tested it. So I brought it back 2 days later and was informed that the idle tension pulley had to be replaced...another day since they discovered that they were out of stock for this item and it would have to be ordered (They had the van for 5 hours before they noticed that). In August of 97 I lost a rotor to improper brake wear nothing was covered by the dealer on this, except re-adjusting the rear drums. Up til now the van only had about 15K miles. went through the winter of 98 with out so much squeak then in May of 98 while on a trip to PA about 40 miles I started smelling antifreeze but could not see any leaks. I pulled into a service station and asked one of the mechanics on duty to take a look...Was I shocked " oh you have a blown head gasket " "and by the way I also noticed that both front struts are leaking" So off we went again back to my 5 star dealer who verified the bad gaskets and struts.3days later I got the van back only to notice that they damaged the cowling that rest's behind the hood where the wipers are located. After a much heated debate with the service rep. and his boss who both claimed that their mechanic would never have had to remove it, asked the mechanic who did the repairs " oh yes " the mechanic said, "I had to remove it to pull the heads off" So a new cowling was installed. I had to come back on that Sat. August that same year while on a drive with the family not more then a 100 miles out the transmission blows and I have to have it flatbeded back to my dealer. They have no clue why it failed other then to say that they have heard reports that some transmissions were failing ? So it was replaced with a brand new one ( not rebuilt )3 days. Since then the vans low oil pressure light goes on and off in any traffic that I may sit in. It also makes a terrible rapping noise when it starts sounds like like there is no oil getting up top ? it does go away after 5 seconds or so, and the oil pan is leaking arround the gasket ( again ) Its going back this week for the rapping noise and the idle tension pulley which is failing again. All in all this vehicle has been a nightmare to keep. We bought it for weekend jaunts and maybe one day of travel to work. Thats it ! I have kept it in mint condition without a scratch or ding and it always gets the best of service every 3000 miles. I never skimp on anyone of the vehicles I have owned. But I must say this one has tried my patience to the limit. My experience with the dealership I purchased it from was dismal to say the least. How they keep their 5 star rating is beyond me. The only thing that goes into this van after they fix it is a forsale sign. Thank god I purchased the bumper to bumper extended coverage. It would have cost us a fortune. Never again will I allow my feelings to be swayed by the slogan "BUY AMERICAN" oh and it has 39K miles as of this posting.... we are just plain scared to drive it.
It seems to be an electrical glitch. Can anyone help me???
None of the many DC minivans owned by many friends has had problems. I simply do NOT believe the doom and gloom CR and other suspect publications have reported.
However, there are occasional lemons of any product and if one is so misfortunate to get a lemon, my experience has shown that a lemon will become known within 7 to 10 days of purchase. It happened to us with a NEW 1972 Volvo 145S, a NEW 1975 VW Rabbit, a used 1977 VW Bus, a NEW 1980 Chevy Citation. Although we kept the Volvo 3 years, we learned to GET RID OF A LEMON as soon as practical so the next 3 lemons stayed with us approximately 1 year each. The Chevrolet dealer was the only one that tried to fix our lemon quickly each time a new problem occured.
The sad part about being unfortunate to get a lemon is the fact that if many problems occur they will occur soon after purchase AND many problems just keep occuring. GET RID of a lemon as soon as you can.
Read in the Odyssey Forums (and forums for any vehicle). There are even NEW lemons wearing the Honda Badge.
None of the MANY friends who own and have owned DC minivans have had problems while more than 50% of Honda Accords owned by friends have had major mechanical problems.
For the record, my sister and her husband have ordered a 2001 Taffeta White Odyssey EX...She is my sister and the van is an EX.
Why do Odyssey owners troll in every DC forum?
Too many satisfied DC minivan owners to print here. Kurt J. for example, loved his 2 DC minivans so well he traded the 1996 Grand Voyager in on a NEW 2000 Grand Caravan LE last summer. John P. got a used pre-1996 Grand Voyager from his Baptist preacher and drove it well over 100,000 miles by the time I retired in 1996 and did NOT even require a tune-up. My sister Louise P. got a used 1986 Caravan SE that had 150,000 miles with no problems. It is still running well for the 3rd satisfied owner....and the list of satisfied owners goes on and on and on and on....
Go read in the Town Hall Odyssey Problems forums to read of the many problems with 1999 Odysseys. Check out April 2001 issue of CR on many problems of 1999 Odyssey. It will be interesting to see how the Odyssey holds up when my sister and brother in law get their NEW 2001 Taffeta White Odyssey EX.
The Odyssey has some nice features: Large, economical standard 3.5L V6; adjustable middle row seating (bench or separate seats with armrests); large cargo behind 3rd seat; "Magic Seat" for even more cargo space. I would like to see DC incorporate them in DC vans...or have Honda include some nice DC features such as separate temperature control for driver, front passenger, and rear passengers; high quality stereo with both cassette and CD. It would be nice if both also had the large 25.5 gal fuel tank and optional 8 passenger seating of Venture or the more comfortable seats of Sienna.
I'm new to this group and apologize if this issue was chewed on way back in the other 633 plus messages.
Andye: You did not say the size of your fog light cutout, but Subaru has a kit for mid'90's Legacies that is 3 3/8"x4 3/4". I wonder if aiming is your problem since fog lights are made to illuminate low and a bit closer than standard low beams. The issue of adequate lighting seems rather subjective, though some owners have reported improvements they liked but I do not recall the details - hopefully you will get further replies.
Steve
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Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
http://www.allpar.com/fix/trans.html
http://www.allpar.com/fix/trans-testimonials.html
I'm wonder if many of the owners that have experienced transmission problems are actually affected by someone using the wrong fluid type from the get-go. I'd be interested in finding out what the percentages are that this is the case, and in many of these failures, the initial cause of degradation of the unit itself.
Without competent and knowledgable service people in our auto stores, independant shops, quick change oil shops, and even certified dealerships... how do we really know that they used the correct transmission fluid when replacement or topping off is needed? How do we know they are recommending the correct transmission fluid at all? Many people don't stop to question the recommendation, thinking those individuals should know what they're taking about, heck, they work in an auto parts store...
After reading the posts of owners that finally scrutinized the shop or the mechanic that worked on their vehicles, I am now going to take a more active role in finding out was used to replace or add to my transmission. I know there are other things that can cause transmission failure, but this one simple factor seems to be a major player in the difference of a healthy unit or one that will cost big bucks in the longrun.
Just purchased our 1st minivan. 2001 DGC ES 3.8L. New to this forum. Wanted to share some of my finding with other owners. Regards!
Lisa
Steve
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Vans, SUVs and Aftermarket & Accessories Message Boards
Wouldn't the Chrysler warranty payment department be overjoyed if all they had to do was document that a failed unit had dexron in it and deny the claim for owner error. I've never seen a post of an owner having this happen. On the other hand, the high failure rate in '89 and '90 before the Mopar 7176 fluid was formulated was in part fluid related. Do you suppose the dealers got notice in bold print when this fluid change was made.
There is considerable evidence and owner posts here that transmission failures have occurred in vans getting exclusively dealer service and in some cases vans that have not had enough miles for even one service. I think it is important to not blame the victims of these failures. One Edmunds poster, Hoofer, has a web site devoted to the methods and benefits of preventive maintenance. He even sends fluid samples for spectrographic analysis and when his Caravan transmission failed at about 67000 miles and well out of warranty, he was able to get Chrysler to pay most of the replacement cost because he had used the dealer for each prescribed service. I would not be so lucky because I bought my van used and I do my own service. When it fails I'll be out of pocket as will most of us with vans past warranty. Other important factors in reducing transmission failures are the following: 1)Read the load and trailer weight limits and avoid exceeding them, 2) models before'99, add a transmission cooler ($35 if you do-it-yourself), 3) If the engine temp gage rises anywhere close to the high mark, do something to limit the heat such as turn off the AC and/or turn on the heater or slow down and shift to a lower gear or stop and cool down, 4) avoid excessive wheel spin when on slick roads or stuck 5)do not shift into "D" while rolling backward, 6) when parking on a grade-engage the parking brake before shifting into "P", 7) turn overdrive off in slow city driving (per my '95 Caravan owners manual).
I like my wife's '95 Caravan and I hope I'm luckier than Hoofer and others with premature failures.
Was thinking of doing it myself, any advice??
Thanks
1 - If they can't fix it in six tries, you may have recourse under your state lemon laws. Suggest you start following the lemon process as defined in the law.
2 - Has someone from the service department rode with you in the car and heard the crackling noise? If not, set up a time mid-day to have them do so. Once they understand the noise and how to duplicate it they are much more likely to fix it.
3 - Sometimes an alignment problem is due to a defective tire. I had one with a broken belt. Have you rotated tires to see if the characteristics of the pull change?
4 - Have you been going to the same shop? Sometimes a given service department just is not good at diagnosing certain problems. Try calling a well-respected local mechanic who specializes in DC minivans and ask if he's seen this before.
We have had two head gasket replacements (one after only 500 miles and then another at 40K).
Then we discovered oil leakage into the air intake manifold. The dealer said it was due to a gummed-up PCV valve and replaced it, did an "induction" cleaning and replace the plugs. A month later I discovered oil was still leaking into the air intake manifold.
The dealer then tried replacing the "Cam sensor" as he thought this might be where the leak was. When that didn't work, he replaced the valve cover as there is a "baffle" in this cover that is supposed to prevent oil from being drawn into the manifold. This has just been done, so I am not sure whether the problem is fixed or not.
The dealer gave me "a big break" on parts and labor (which was true--I was only charged $230 for the Cam sensor and the valve cover work.) This made me think that maybe they didn't quite get if fixed or it was a latent defect problem. I went to the web and found two TSB's on this engine dealing with oil seepage at the CAM sensor and oil seepage through the valve cover baffle. The upshot is valve cover problem is (according to the TSB) often misdiagnosed as a head gasket problem.
Now I wonder if I really ever had head gasket problem, or if it was the valve cover all along! I'll cross my fingers and hope the problems fixed. If not, I would appreciate any suggestions.
[Please excuse any terminology errors--I know nothing about engines.]