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Comments
The 4-speed automatic I-35 with 255 HP 3.5L V-6 is rated 20/26 mpg. The 5-speed automatic ES300 with 210 HP 3.0L V-6 is rated 21/29 mpg. Heck, the ES300 comes with V-rated tires and a 140 mph top speed.
Second, silverlex, I agree. Riding 1000 miles in any camaro would be a lot worse than listening to that smooth Toyota engine purr, and that's not even bad.
2. If I'm crusing 1,000 miles from point A to point B at 75-85 mph, I'd much prefer my engine turn over 500 or more RPMs less. I'll have less engine noise. Less engine wear. Better fuel economy. Save $$$ on every tankful. So what is the downside? None, at least not in the real world. Why, oh why, won't these companies build .70 or .75 overdrive 5th gears in their performance sedans and coupes? Maybe the owners don't spend much time on interstates or scenic 2-lane county roads?
He just wants a pretty Lexus. The IS300 wants lean and mean. Luxury is secondary to performance.
Many Bimmer owners buy an image. They don't know about FWD and RWD, couldn't care. Luckily, they mostly buy the non-performance models and mostly automatics. They will never slip and slide the rear ends like manual owners can and do. The new 7 series is for trinket lovers - it's just too big to do anything with. The average owner has too much money and is too old for any testosterone kicks. It's just about as sporty as an STS. Rolling coffins club. I want my heart attack as I slide around the corner. I'm only 53. I'm too young to drive like I'm already dead.
We are not going to turn this topic into a 3-Series vs IS 300 argument. Nor are we going to be uncivil in the ways that one or two of you have been previously in discussing these issues. It's just not going to happen again; we have been there and we have done that and we are through with that.
We have a fine place for a civil and polite comparison of these two vehicles here: Lexus IS 300 vs. BMW 3-Series. Anyone who wishes to contribute respectfully to the conversation is welcome.
Thank you.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
This year I think I get to choose between a scooter (manual of course) and roller skates (the 30 year old kind that clip on to your shoes with a key, and then fall off and make you fall DOWN on your face and of course you lose the key).
;->
Ahem. Back to the IS 300....
Those who can't afford BMWs simply buys the souped up Corolla. This is what seperates the haves and have nots. If Lexus priced their IS in the same price range as the 330, no one will be buying the IS. Lexus knows that!
Regardless what incentives Lexus gives out, the fact of the matter is that the souped up Corolla looks just like an aftermarket boy racer car priced in the entry level luxury price. The aftermarket look does NOT attract the masses. That's a fact and the sales figure proves it!
The fully loaded Altima will steal some sales from the IS. By the time G35, CTS, Madza 6, A4, and others come rolling along, poor IS will lose more sales. Too bad! Competition is great, isn't it?
Hvan-flawed logic, you've listed cars that for one are aimed at totally different demographics. And that cost between $16k and 40k. What's your point here? Your always bring "new" models into the equation. Did it ever occur to you that Lexus does redesign its vehicles as well??? Of the cars you've listed the only direct competitor is the A4, the G35 (Nissan Skyline) and CTS aren't available, the Mazda 6 ? please, Altima will NEVER have any affect on the IS300 sales, again different demographics. How many people do you think go into a Lexus dealer and say, "I'm debating between an IS or Altima." Also in case you haven't noticed the majority of automakes. are offering incentives, low financing, and subvented leases to generate sales, NEWS FLASH.... The economy isn't doing all that well.
We are not going to use this topic for the heated comparison argument that was taking place here - I was quite clear about that in my post last night, so I don't know why some of you even wasted your time. Please go to the comparisons board. If a suitable topic does not already exist, feel free to create one. But do keep in mind that posts on that board must conform to the civility and respect portion of your Membership Agreement as well.
We are not going to use this topic as a place to slam each other. Not only was I clear about that last night, it is a message that you have heard repeatedly from me in this discussion and others throughout the Sedans board.
I'd like to remind a couple of you to leave the management of this discussion to your host. You only make the situation worse when you respond to posts that are clearly outside of the Membership Agreement. Either drop me an email, or trust that I will almost always show up at least within 24 hours, if not sooner. In either case, PLEASE do not respond. You escalate the problem and subsequently make my job very much more difficult.
As all of you already know, messages posted here must be worded respectfully and civilly. That is a requirement of your membership in Town Hall, and all of you surely know by now that I enforce that.
If any of you wish to discuss what has happened here, feel free to contact me off-line.
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
Thanks!
Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board
i wonder if the people who whine about the IS300 actually own one.
engine noise? i avg around 80-90mph on the fwy and i have no complaints.
performance? it's sneaky fast. before i know it, i'm going almost twice the speed limit and handling/ride are great.
gas mileage? could be better, but if you're willing to spend $35K for a car, who cares if you have to spend an extra $110/year for gas (23mpg v 20mpg, 10K miles per year, 17.5gallon tank and $1.70/gallon).
competitors? when i bought my car (may '01), the competition consisted of the 325i, A4 2.8, TL-S, C240 and the I30. i didn't want a fwd and the IS300 was a better value than the 325i and C240. i don't think you can compare Nissan's, Mazda's, and VW's to BMW's, Lexus's and Audi's...well maybe Audi's to VW's.
my only complaint so far would be the lack of trunk space due to the stationary rear seats. a golf bag and a few bags of groceries and the trunk gets almost full. then again, this isn't a family-hauler. if i wanted more cargo room, i should've bought the Envoy.
the IS300 for many reasons is a much maligned little sedan. it is sad that lots of folks fail to see the enormous potential of this new lex. as we all know this car is no slouch right now. it can be tuned to the gills as this months turbo magazine points out. the line for aftermarket IS parts is enormous.
looks and luxury seem to be its biggest criticism. some folks fail to accept its gen-x looks. others with vision and a open mind can easily see that all cars out there swim in a sea of sameness. the IS is not like the others. i laugh at the folks who criticize its interior. it may not be up to par with a 40K MB or bmw in their eyes but they overlook the obvious. THIS DAMN CAR IS NOT 40k OR EVEN CLOSE TO IT!!!!!! if you look inside the 26K dollar sedans today japanese or american those interiors are what you call cheap. is it really worth a mention?? what for?? what would you expect from a 26K dollar car?? for 26K they can get some great performance but something has to be sacrificed. i don't understand what kind of logic some people have in edmunds. then people will say that the IS has sacrificed some things with respect to its competition and i say, "with respect to a 39 to 45K car, i hope so otherwise one could call lexus a rip-off joint like its rivals are right now."
someone can correct me but for 10K more on the base price of a manual or auto IS you would think that you could squeeze in a turbocharged or supercharged engine and not really sacrifice a damn thing that already comes on this car. in fact, they could remove all the cheapy plastics that have brought it so much criticism and maybe make the backseat a tad roomier to appease all the whiners. for 42K i bet we could have a IS300 that could appease all the whiners and boast 260hp and dust all of its competition in every performance category.
vtec/vvti/ivtec/double voranos
1. Sales figures can be seen at prnewswire.com around the second or third of each month. That's when the manufacturers release their sales press releases for the previous month. (Go to the home page, select industry, then automotive).
2. I was the one who posted on the ES300 board about Lexus admitting the IS300 interior was not nice enough. I attended a Lexus owners focus group back in February (I have a 1995 ES), along with 10 other owners and about 50 Lexus execs from Japan (most needed a translator). Although our session was only for GS and ES owners, the IS came up. The Lexus people said they underestimated the need for a more upscale interior in the IS and said point blank they made a mistake. They said the next-generation IS will have a significantly upgraded interior, especially in terms of materials used, although it will still be sportier than other Lexus models.
Hope this clarifies some stuff.
A loaded IS300 hits around $39k.
Same thing for the 5M loaded to the gills will be 36K and knock off a couple grand which from what I'm reading seems to be the current discount for a total of 34K.
Shop around and do your research. The deals are out there.
IS this typical???
Great point! I started shopping for a new car this weekend. Started with the Honda Accord. Nice car for $26K but the interior isn't great. Next looked at the new Camry. Nicer, but looking at about $30K. Finally went to Lexus and looked at the IS300 and fell in love. It's definitely, IMHO, the best looking of all three cars (both interior and exterior.
On my 5-speed IS, I actually wish the gearing was a bit shorter. And besides, as someone has mentioned, @80 mph, you hear more of the road noise than engine. I didn't buy my IS (or my celica for that matter) to be lazy highway cruisers. I want feedback and more importantly, I want to be involved when I'm driving. I would think that you'd agree with this part, and I suppose you'd prefer a different type of involvement. But to say there is no reason to make a 5th gear the way the IS300 is, is simply pushing your judgement and preference on others.
Living in Atlanta, I appreciate the passing power in 5th. Doesn't make either one of us wrong per say, but it comes down to what you want. On a test drive with the TL, it was apparent 5th was useless for anything but "cruising". In the IS, I can go from 65-80 or 80+ while passing without changing gears. In my opinion, that makes for an overall more enjoyable ride instead of the constant 5 to 4 to 5 transition. And I'll say it again, the IS's straight six purrrs like a kitten at 3000 - noise is NOT a problem.
That's just a preference. Am I in the minority? Most likely, but you have to look at who the car is aimed at - and boy racers aren't the only ones who appreciate a sports sedan with a little more kick in 5th.
I suppose if you drove a Celica GTS, you'd flip at how fast the engine turns @80 mph on 5th gear, or even 6th gear. And as I've stated previously, I get 32+ mpg. The 2ZZ-GE engine is undoubtedly more efficient than the 2JZ-GE engine, not to mention nearly half the displacement (1.8L vs. 3.0L).
As those who know Supras and Cressidas, the 2JZ-GE engine goes back a long way. I think they've done what they could to wring out efficiency and power out of this engine, short of turbo- or supercharging it.
And the Civic Si does 4,000+ rpm @80 mph. As does the S2000 on 6th.
Since everyone is free to choose, perhaps the IS300 is not your best choice.
At 60 mph in 5th gear the S8 engine turn 2,400 RPMs versus 2,000 RPMs for S55 and 1,900 RPMs for 740i. The Audi is the lightest car with the smallest engine. It gets the worst EPA fuel economy rating and has the loudest interior noise at 70 mph. (If Audi wanted the aggressive final drive, they should've gone with much lower numerical overdrive 5th, say around .70.)
So I all see is downside and no upside. More engine wear, more noise, and more fuel expense. If I can have less engine wear, less noise, and less fuel expense (without suffering performance loss or minimizing it), why wouldn't I?
Do you own any of these cars, BTW?
For most owners of these kinds of vehicles, fuel economy is not exactly on the top of their list of must-have features. And the idea of fuel economy is relative, as I showed you with my Celica/IS300 example. I didn't buy my Celica or my IS300 for fuel economy. If I were to, I could've bought the Insight which I believe gets 60+ mpg.
For the ultimate in fuel economy and noise, all cars should idle @60 mph (super tall gearing). After all, one can simply downshift to 4th (or 3rd) to pass or to climb a hill.
One thing interesting about people who can afford to buy these cars is that they tend to be smart and have common sense. Notice how the MB and BMW outsell the Audi in this class? They know it makes no rational sense to have gearing that reduces economy and increases noise and engine wear without having any appreciable meaningful impact on day-to-day performance in 99 percent of driving conditions.
Your statement, "They know it makes no rational sense to have gearing that reduces economy and increases noise and engine wear without having any appreciable meaningful impact on day-to-day performance in 99 percent of driving conditions" seems flawed, as in your previous posts you were specifically concentrating on the 5th gear (or 6th gear) and final drive ratios. If one's daily commute or his driving habits are such that he'd never reach 5th gear, then the "aggressive" gearing on 1-4th gears would negate the fuel economy the 5th gear would have provided. By your logic in the last post, _all_ gears _and_ the final drive should be tall to accommodate a high fuel economy, less engine wear, and less engine noise to achieve "99 percent of driving conditions." Then what would be the purpose of buying a BMW or an MB if these had very tall gearing? Wouldn't a cheaper econobox provide the same or better outcome, use regular unleaded, and be generally cheaper to maintain?
I won't deny completely gearing wouldn't have some impact to the car's fuel economy. But I doubt -- in the Audi S8 example -- taller gearing would contribute significant improvement to the overall fuel economy. Especially for those with more aggressive driving habits, or those whose driving patterns would rarely need 5th gear, or some combination of both.
Check out Car & Driver's comments on the new 740i with 6-speed automatic. Has a gigantic overall spread (about a factor of 6 versus 4.5 for the 5-speed automatic). That can get you great acceleration off line and efficient top gear cruising.