Lexus IS 300

stanny1 · July 2001

Does anyone know who the manufacturer of the new manual transmission is and the ratios? From the Autoweek article, I don't think it's a Getrag because this five-speed evidently has an overdrive fifth gear and almost all Getrags have 1:1 fifth gears. Toyota made an excellent overdrive five-speed from 1982 to 1990 or so for the Supra and Cressida that was bulletproof. It was called the W58 and it may well have been reissued for the IS300. A great tranny -I had one in my 83 Cressida for 17 years with no problems.
Do you guys have any inside contacts with Lexus ?

corduroygt · July 2001

I remember having read somewhere that the 5-speed was a derivative of the Supra's 6-speed.

stanny1 · July 2001

Possible! I'm pretty sure that the six-speed in the later Supras is the Getrag unit. But I think abandoning the sixth gear and putting in an overdrive fifth would be a difficult and unjustified engineering feat, especially for Getrag. The six-speed's cost is a quantum leap from their 220 series non-overdrive five-speed. I'll still put my bet on either a revived W58 or a new Toyota design which would cost millions to develop. Seriously, there is little interest by auto manufacturers in designing new manual trannys. The market is too limited in the U.S. Drivers are just too lazy and uncoordinated here. Maybe Lexus is looking at the European and Asian markets where a standard transmission IS standard, so they can justify the cost over more potential buyers. But I feel that the IS300 manual will be a real winner and manual IS300 sales will be greater than BMW's 15% of sales and the Lincoln LS's 2.5% of sales, the only other 4 door, rear-wheel-drive Manual models available in the U.S. (oops I forgot the six-speed MB240 with the anemic engine).

ripinrocket · July 2001

shawn325,

Huh. Just sticking to autoweek phrases? Didn't a magazine rate the Is300 above the 3-series BMW?

How about pointing out phrases from that article.

And how many magazines have gotten 7.99 outside of AUtoweek? That is right, zero.

stanny1,

Guaranteed the trans. is manufactured by Toyota itself. Toyota has always engineered all of their own transmissions.

shawn325i · July 2001

The quotes are actually aimed at V_tech only because he is the king of such quotes, positive ones of course.

As far as another test that had the IS auto at 7.99, don't know of one, but most, not all have tested it at and around 7.5 sec, which would still put the new manual in the low 7's , maybe 6.9.

And no I have not seen the mag that rated the IS300 above any 3 series, in fact the IS300 is usually 3rd or 4th in the comparisons.

My point re: the acceleration times is simply that if this car with a manual is running times in the lows 7's, it certainly is fast enough and we all know quick, but with 215 horses and 218 lb-ft torque, I think that is somewhat disappointing given the engine and weight of the car.

silverlex · July 2001

Here's some more info regarding options and specs. It's a scan from the brochure:

http://www.extremefx.com/IS300/brochure_specifications.jpg

Shawn, for a future BMW owner, you sure do hang out in the IS300 crowd a lot. Rethinking your decision? Go have it out with Vtech via email our something, because sooner or later another "discussion" between you two will probably get this board shut down too.

stanny1 · July 2001

The 93 and later Supras used the Getrag six-speed manual, as used in the BMW 540i and M5, MB C240, Audi and others. The lesser BMWs and Lincoln LS use the non-overdrive Getrag five-speed manual. Unless Toyota designed a new five-speed with overdrive or Getrag made a new five-speed with overdrive (both doubtful), the "new" tranny for the manual is the venerable Toyota W58, for which no apologies are necessary. It will handle way more than the IS300 will ever dish out. It was also used on the early SC300 Manual. The only problem with the W58 is that it is faily large, and the Getrag 220 series is relatively tiny (2.5 quarts of fluid vs. 1.1 quarts of fluid). I have a feeling that, lacking direct contact with some tech person at Lexus, it will take a long time to find out the real story on who makes this tranny and if it is a W58. Do any of you have a factory contact? E-mail to Lexus tech?

stanny1 · July 2001

Great general stuff. How do we get "really technical" ? Help?

silverlex · July 2001

I can tell you that it's not a Getrag only because I've heard the questions answered before, but I know nothing more about it. Sorry. You'll find the answer at IS300.net when it becomes available though. All the info I get comes from there.

shawn325i · July 2001

for your thoughts.

Believe it or not, But I do like this auto somewhat. It's a good start for Lexus, but thats it a start.

ripinrocket · July 2001

shawn,

I believe it was R&T that rated the IS300 #1 over the BMW. And yes, V_tech does use phrases' that only make the IS300 look good. But if you were making a point to V-tech, you should have addressed your post specifically to V_tech.

mstssc · July 2001

I am in Calgary and the base price is $37k cdn and change. The one I am looking at is full load less the titanium wheels for $45.5k (cdn)

Steve

silverlex · July 2001

I'll post it again, but it's been posted at least 3 times. I'm surprised you haven't seen it. But I'm not doing this so you can turn this thread into an "IS300 vs. 3 series" debate. That's not it's purpose, so please don't debate the merits and/or comments of the editors. If you feel you have to defend the 330, go create us another thread - I'm sure you'll find willing participants, including myself.

The IS won because it held an very close second to the Bimmer and price easily knocked it up to number one - and yes, we all understand you feel most Bimmer owners don't factor price, but the editors disagree with you on that I guess. The month was April of this year:
http://www.roadandtrack.com/RoadandTrack/features/0401_all_things_all_enthusiasts_p1.html

And here's a link to the chart that they didn't archive with the story that shows the scoring:
http://www.extremefx.com/IS300/rt_scores.jpg

As well as specs as they tested them:
http://www.extremefx.com/IS300/rt_specs.jpg

pat · July 2001

Some argumentative posts have been removed. Folks, please keep in mind your Membership Agreement which states: "If you wish to take issue with the statements of other Town Hall members or Edmunds.com staff, please engage in healthy, mature debate and not immature behavior or name-calling. Civility and respect underlie the success of an on-line community such as Town Hall."

The topic of this discussion is the Lexus IS 300. It is not a comparison topic. Some civil and respectful conversation about other vehicles in not inappropriate, but turning this into a specific vehicle vs. the IS 300 is inappropriate. As I have said several times here, take it to the Comparisons - Sedans vs. Sedans folder - where the same Membership Agreement rules apply.

Thank you.

Pat
Host
Sedans Message Board

fxashun · July 2001

shawn325i · July 2001

shawn325i · July 2001

I do remember that one.

Winning on price only, OK.

pat · July 2001

ripinrocket · July 2001

shawn,

Try reading. Price alone was not why it won.

hvan3 · July 2001

Don't you hate censorship?

shawn325i · July 2001

the IS300 behind on points to 2 other cars (can't name them or Pat will delete)on both performance and subjective ratings, but leaps ahead on the price rating!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Looks like english to me.

silverlex · July 2001

Factual error: The IS was second in the Subjective ratings, AND second in the Combined before price was considered. I won't argue with you Shawn, but I won't let you distort plain english either.

According to the chart they posted the IS300 lead in:

Slalom
Skidpad
Driving Excitement
Engine
Seats
Ergonomics/controls
Price

What's suprising is who won the performance category. Go figure.

I think there's a part in the story that says the IS trailed 2 other cars, when in fact, it only trailed one according to the chart they created displaying the breakdown of points. That may be a print error on their part.

shawn325i · July 2001

FACT!!!! The IS won the comparison test once PRICE was considered!!!!!

The numbers are the numbers and any attempt at coming to a conclusion that is different then what the numbers say is DISTORTION.

That is no reason to feel disappointed as it did win.

Yes, I agree, very surprised on who won the performance category, maybe this test is flawed!

kam66 · July 2001

How does the IS300 handle in snow/ice? Has anyone had problems in a winter environment? We'd end up getting a dedicated set of winter wheels/tires but I'd like to here about your experiences.

If we buy we'll be getting the 5sp manual, but we're a little concerned about handling in the white stuff. My wife and I are in the Air Force so we tend to move around a bit (in Montana last year, currently in Texas and will move to Colorado next year) and can't afford to get a car that has a glaring weakness in any type of environment.

I'm only asking for responses for the IS300. We've test driven the A4, Passat, Maxima SE, Accord, Camry and TL-S but this is the only rear wheel drive we're considering. (Sorry Shawn325 but the wife has something against BMW so its not in consideration - BTW I don't know why. I've even suggested the European delivery option but she's not interested).

Thanks

silverlex · July 2001

You'd be better off searching the IS300.net message boards for opinions from owners up north. But to paraphrase countless discussion on the topic, you can get around just fine with some snow tires, or if you opt for the 16". But you won't make it out of your driveway with the stock 17" summers, so some sort of winter tire is necessary of course.

silverlex · July 2001

I just got back from looking at the 2002 Sportcross that's making its way throughout the US as a prototype (release is August). I wasn't so much interested in the Wagon version of the IS300, but I wanted to see some of the stuff that will be available in the 2002 sedans.

Two major improvements for 2002 are the armrest and the Navigation. The navigation was so well done - quick and very simple to operate via a tiny joystick and button control just under the armrest. It's a shame it wasn't available for `01. The new dash looks good completely black, but I still prefer the brushed aluminum. But it gives it a more conservative look which will probably help it sell to older audiences. Also, the full leather is a nice feature, allowing those not big on the escaine inserts another choice.

Other minor changes/additions worth mentioning is the VSC (vehicle skid control) and the curtain airbags and auto dimming rear mirror. For those who own a `01, the armrest and auto-dimming mirror should be easy additions once their available. Now if they only had memory seating as an option.

Not a bad start for `02, especially with the stick arriving. Lots to look forward to as this car starts to evolve.

v_tech · July 2001

you just keep coming back for more. why on earth would you be surprised who won the performance category????? the car costs 44K it better win something don't you think???

another IS quote for you from road and track since you seem to forget all the good things being said.

"Everyone agreed that, functionally, it's an exciting car to drive, with a foundation of SOLID, thoughtful engineering under its exuberant and spirited personality."

the funny thing about autoweek is they rip this ridiculous 7.99 time for the IS300 and then in another paragraph call the automatic engine no slouch. i was dying with laughter. shawn, the bigger GS300 boat runs faster than that and these two cars have virtually the same engine. when you post something you should know what you are talking about first.
vtec/vvti/double vornados

ezaircon4jc · July 2001

From the July 16 edition of Autoweek, the IS300 will use a "variation of the 5-spd manual from the SC300, which in turn is a variation of the 6-spd manual from the Supra." Lexus expects to sell about 4800 manuals a year, according to the article.

ojc · July 2001

Just saw the 1st Manual IS300 at a SoCal showroom. The armrest is indeed there, and the shifter has a nice silver knob. The escaine was still there, but full leather is indeed available. The spoiler fits nicely on the rear deck. No power trunk or 4-way auto windows, and I think that none of the windows is auto up, nor is the remote key capable of auto-opening the windows and SR. Oh, well, at 34K loaded, its a good deal overall.

shawn325i · July 2001

Once again! I posted the facts as Autoweek saw them!!!!

Wether I know something or not, is not the point here, the facts are the facts!!!!

I guess Autoweek thinks 7.99 is not all that slow!

There you go again talkng about costs, Silver and I are both surprised who won as MB is lagged behind in this category for years. Lesson to learn "$$$$'s spent on a vehicle does not always = the best in every category. If you ever had the $$$'s to own a MB you would know what you are spending your $$$'s on.

silverlex · July 2001

That's good to hear. I've read a few are trickling in. I think someone said the first batch would be loaded with nav and escaine, so if you want full leather, you may have to wait longer. I'd love to see the spoiler close up. The pics I've seen look good - not too big. I like it most without a spoiler, but I've seen some I really like, mostly the lip ones.

The driver side should at least be one-touch up/down. I can't imagine them taking that away. The sunroof should also be one touch. A bunch of us have asked our dealers to change the CEBus options for window and SR control, but those can't be set for the IS, where they can for the RX I think. But there's a list of about 20 other things that can be altered.

What color was it?

ojc · July 2001

It was black. I am sure that the SR is one touch, but the 'baby GS' indeed has few of the convenience features of our GS300. The spoiler was not a small lip but it did fit nicely.

Personally, I think that Lexus could have spent the extra $500 to match the convenience features of the GS and still remained competitive with BMW. But I am so stuck on Toyota reliability and fit/finish that these sacrifices just have to do.

stanny1 · July 2001

The SC300 from the early 90's used the same Supra/Cressida/SC300/GS300/IS300 DOHC straight-six that Toyota is famous for along with the W58 five-speed overdrive that was first used in the 1982 Supra. In 1993, the Supra went to the Getrag six-speed. Toyota has never made a six-speed, so the five-speed in the IS300 is not from a six-speed or a six-speed Getrag. Getrag has no overdrive five-speed unless they started making one for the IS300 (a long shot). So the new IS300 either uses a new designed Toyota five-speed or more likely, gang, it is the venerable Toyota W58, which is a great manual bulletproof to over
650 hp.
And while manual transmission cars make up only 8% of car sales in the US, and only 2.5% of Lincoln sales and 12-15% of BMW sales, I predict that IS300 manual sales will set a record as a total % of IS300 sales. If only 4800 manuals reach our shores in one year, the dealers are going to get smart and charge a premium for Manuals. Get yours before the dealers get piggy, and automatic IS300 trade-ins glut the lots. I predict alot of auto IS owners will want a "real" transmission. The IS300 will "out BMW" the 3 series as the boy racer standard. Aftermarket parts will be more extensive and cheaper and performance upgrades more available than for BMW's. And if you talk to the Supra boys and visit their web sites, you'll find out that the Toyota DOHC six is capable of a lot more power without much effort. It's almost detuned in the IS300 at 215 hp.

silverlex · August 2001

Thanks stanny.

stanny1 · August 2001

I owned a 1983 Toyota Cressida for 17 years. It had a W58 five speed,LSD, and it was the first year to have that velvety DOHC straight-six that first appeared in the 82 Supra. I had 17 years and 160k, the original fuel and water pump, the tranny and engine had never been apart. The drivetrain in the IS300 should be as bulletproof. When some guy rear-ended me in April 2000 and totaled my four-door Supra, I still wanted a four-door, RWD, manual car. I don't remember the IS300 as being on the radar screen at that time, so my choice was the Manual Lincoln LS or the 5 series Bimmer. I'm a real estate broker so a little larger car is helpful for carrying clients. So I have watched the development of the LS and the IS300 with interest. I still miss my straight-six, and the Lincoln will probably never address the lack of an overdrive five speed Manual (they use the BMW's Getrag) and lack of an LSD differential, which to me is a necessity. It looks like Lexus wants a real performance car and the Manual IS300 looks like it has the right ingredients. I can't wait to see what tranny it has and what the road tests say. As good as today's automatics are, the manual should turn in at least a half second better in the 0-60 if the mags get a broken-in sample. Many times the cars are too green and stiff.

fxashun · August 2001

has never produced much more than 220Hp or so stock unless it had turbos on it. It's not very detuned at 215hp it's just normally aspirated. 200 hp is about right for a stock 3 liter 4 valve engine.

hunter001 · August 2001

"200 hp is about right for a stock 3 liter 4 valve engine."

If the above is true, then how do you account for stock normally aspirated 2 liter 4-valve engines generating 240 hp AND being able to be classified as a Low emission vehicle ??!!!

stanny1 · August 2001

Being a 53 year old gearhead and having some contacts at Toyota, I have as much info as I can get on the new IS300 Manual Tranny. It looks like a brand new design and this is saying something about Toyota. Most manufacturers today do not have the engineers nor the demand to take on the task of designing a new Manual tranny, which costs millions to do today. They must have started this project way before the IS300 was introduced.
So here are the ratios:
1st: 3.566
2nd: 2.056
3rd: 1.384
4th: 1.000
5th: .850
Final Drive: 3.727
Overall, a real "close" ratio box fit for a "boy racer" performance car.
I'd heard that the rear drive was in the 3.80 range, but with this unusual fifth gear ratio at .85 instead of a more common .70-.75, the 3.727 would be more in line to keep NVH and revs lower and meet CAFE standards.
The new tranny is called the W55. It is evidently a Toyota designed and manufactured unit as it is overdrive and the Getrag 220 series is their current RWD five-speed design and has a 1:1 fifth.
The ratios are different than any Toyota I've seen and that probably means a different case - in other words, all new. The old W58 as used in the Supra was quite large, and probably too big to fit in the smaller Lexi.
I don't know what the ratios are in the automatic, but it would be interesting to see if the torque multiplication in each gear is overall similar. There is a chance that the cams in the Manual are slightly different also. More info coming...

hvan3 · August 2001

No matter what Lexus does to their IS300, the fact remains that the style is still a boy racer vehicle. It doesn't appeal to the masses.

As for running out to the dealership and getting a manual before prices go up, that's absolutely laughable.

Competition gets stiffer once Infiniti I35 comes rolling off the assembly line.

stanny1 · August 2001

If it's FWD, it's not even on the same planet. Front wheel drive cars can't accelerate and steer at the same time without traction control. The moment you break the tire loose with excessive torque, you're in the trees. In a RWD car, you can set up a four wheel drift - the fastest way around a corner - you can steer with your right foot at will. The IS300's neutral front to rear balance -almost 50-50 typical of RWD - enables you to toss the car like an extension of your body. With FWD's excessive front weight, neutral/central polar moment of inertia is destroyed and misplaced too far forward. The Manual tranny, available in the Maxima but I doubt in the Infinity clone, allows a more direct and predictable transfer of torque, which helps in control and in setting up cornering drift. All true performance cars and race cars are RWD. Drive at the limit and you will find the limit early with FWD. It's more expensive to make, but RWD is true luxury car territory now. Lincoln will soon be all RWD, Cadillac is changing over, Honda has the 2000 RWD, Miata, every BMW and Benz,etc. FWD is for appliances, RWD is for cars. Take your FWD Infiniti to the sloloms and put it up to an equivalent RWD in the same class and see how it does. FWD slolom cars usually are in their own class and they are the smaller ones - Integras and Civics. FWD is not complementary to larger and heavier cars. I forgot to mention excessive front tire and brake wear, more expensive labor to repair, torque steer, and the reduced turning radius caused by that complicated ball joint that has to hold the weight, steer and transfer power at the same time to the front wheels. Those are notorius for going out after the warranty expires at a huge repair cost. RWD is simpler and better. The only advantage cited by FWD advocates is poor weather traction, but Traction Control has solved that problem. Traction Control will slow your slolom times as the system misinterprets intentional wheel slip as traction loss and inhibits the car. RWD cars should defeat all TC when "racing". On FWD, you need it on all the time so you don't spin the front tires and lose steering ability.
In short, the IS300 will appeal to the performance driver. All others need not apply.
I think that those performance wanna-bes that now drive Integras and Civics with so many mods (low and slow,chopped springs,big exhaust tip) will get tired of pretending the car really does something and want a true machine. The IS300 is an obvious upgrade. 4800 Manuals is a drop in the bucket when the mags adopt this car as their favorite. I'd hate to be in the BMW marketing dept soon. The IS300 is not to the M3 stage yet, but I can see the future and it's pretty bright.

mmcbride1 · August 2001

"In short, the IS300 will appeal to the performance driver. All others need not apply."

So that's why they didn't introduce a manual until now? Because the IS was meant only for performance drivers?

corduroygt · August 2001

I think what he meant was the G35 not the I35. The G35 is a RWD car, basically the new skyline sedan in japan. I read it in this month's C&D, looks sweet with a 270 HP 3.5 V6, manual transmission, and a price similar to the IS300. The IS NEEDS more power to keep up. Maybe they should make that TRD supercharger standard, or only charge like $1k for it.

stanny1 · August 2001

But is the G35 coming to America? A lot of Japanese performance cars never make it to our shores.
As to the IS300 starting with the auto, I think the auto was already in production and used in some other Toyota/Lexus models, maybe in Japan only, and so the IS300 could come to life early with an existing auto transmission.
I think the new manual tranny was quite a project and took some time to execute. Now one has played with a new RWD manual design for some time. Everyone else buys their manuals from BW/Tremec or Getrag. If you are a car manufacturer, it doesn't pay to keep manual tranny engineers on the payroll when no one needs them. Toyota may have farmed out some of the engineering on this one as well. Hats off to Toyota for the faith and the bucks to build one. You can be sure that the IS300 is going to be a world car. The rest of the world buys 90% manuals and 10% autos. We are just the reverse. The tranny rebuilders I know all live in big houses. I'm a real estate broker and I know where they live. If you don't service those slush boxes often, they make alot of money. Manuals usually last the life of the car. Manual rebuilding is a lost art. In San Diego, all the tranny shops send their manuals to a secret shop in an eastern suburb that doesn't even have a sign out front. The tranny shops lack the space and expertise to work on them. And there's only enough business for one shop. Mostly racing customers.

mmcbride1 · August 2001

Is on the way here. I am excited to see it. It could be a huge success for Infiniti if it's done right (and it sounds good). Pricing will be key.

Also, Infiniti needs to learn from Lexus and the IS and give us a manual right away.

I agree in most auto segments, a manual tranny is not necessary. But the enthusiasts who want sports sedans definitely want manuals.

stanny1 · August 2001

I think the IS300 is a better candidate for turbocharging. I say that because the straight-six
has loads of room on the sides for the plumbing, unlike the V engines. Also, the path has already been well blazed for you. The Supra boys have all the stuff and have had for years. Greedy and a dozen aftermarket guys have all the parts sitting on the shelves. Just go up to Supras.com or type in Supra on Google.com. Loads of info. I don't own an IS300 so I haven't researched it, but mods should be easily obtained and unlike BMW, a lot more affordable. Some of those Supra guys are getting 300 hp easily. Some are way over that. The Supra guys have done all your groundwork. As the IS300 multiplies, look for all the aftermarket people to jump in - Magnaflow, Borla, etc. It's going to be quite a ride...

khoa · August 2001

hvan3: "running out to the dealership and getting a manual before prices go up, that's absolutely laughable"

I for one would wait to see the G35 before making my decision. There'll be plenty of IS300 5spd to choose, time for Lexus to increase the HP.

fxashun · August 2001

Comparing Toyota and Honda engines would be a baaad deal. There is no comparison. But I believe it's more marketing than enginneering. Also a 3 liter straight 6 at 9000 rpm would be hell on long term reliability with that long crankshaft stressing the bearings and block.

silverlex · August 2001

I reposted your info at IS300.net's General Discussion regarding the manual ratios. Many have been asking for it.

stanny1 · August 2001

I went on IS300.net but I expected more depth, like specs and all kinds of detail. Is there something I'm missing? Also, I'm trying to find the tranny ratios on the five speed auto in the IS to compare with the new manual. The first gear ratio in the manual is really a low one. It should be easy to spin the tires with that kind of torque multiplication, which overall is 13.29 engine rpms to one turn of the wheel. That means the 218 lbs of torque from the engine can do some serious damage without that Torsen LSD. Heck, it can still tear up tires at will. I guess all manuals will come with the Torsen - it should be standard with a manual.

hunter001 · August 2001

Here you go (IS300 5-speed auto gear ratios):

1st-----3.357
2nd-----2.180
3rd-----1.424
4th-----1.000
5th-----0.753
Final drive - 3.909

Later...AH

Lexus IS 300

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