DO NOT get the Sony P800, it is beautiful but the Bluetooth does not have Handsfree Profile capability and will NOT work on TL.
I got a Sony Ericsson T616 (ATT Wireless)...works seamlessly with TL. Only negative are the tiny buttons on the keyboard but in the car it really does not bother me.
Thanks for that...does that mean the P900 (http://shopwireless.sonyericsson.com/store/handset_P900.asp) would not work as well? So if I'm evaluating a Bluetooth-enabled phone, I need to assure that it allows for "handsfree operation"? I was thinking of getting the p900, but now I'd better make sure I ask the correct questions...
I'd agree with the prior posts, especially if its in Charleston, SC. When my neighbor did their test drive prior to purchasing their TL, the salesman took them to an empty parking lot and did doughnuts for them. When they got to dirve it, he told them to aim for the potholes to see how it handles them.
In response to your second question, from a purely performance standpoint, yes, there is a slight withdrawal from the M5. Keep in mind this is originally a $75k vehicle with 400hp, and a suspension to die for. However, the TL's ride and isolation impress each time I drive the vehicle. Furthermore, I have 2 friends in the market for a new car, both quite knowledgeable regarding automobiles, and both have taken extended rides/drives of my car; I think each will buy the TL in the near future.
Don't misunderstand my position--the TL IS a compromise, but one I personally am happy to make. Once you factor in $$, it was, for me, a no brainer.
In reference to the Bimmers, $ was a consideration for me, but if you're truly going to compare apples to apples, it is my humble opinion the TL should be compared with the 5 series, and in that event, a 545i equipped like the TL will run you $25-30k MORE, not an insignificant sum (to me). I do recognize BMW's superiority as far as the suspensions are concerned, and the 3.0 inline 6 is liquid smooth, and I believe under-rated as far as hp/torque specs. But again, the 330i is a much smaller vehicle than the TL, has a single in-dash cd player, no satellite radio, and you still have to add in the cost of your trip to be fair to yourself.
Either way, you'll enjoy the vehicle, and good luck.
The only other car that I can think of whose styling seems to depend on the colour is the new Maxima. Like the 5-series, it looks best (menacing in a masculine way) in black, and god-awful in some of the lighter colours.
I can now buy a brand new 330i 6-speed, sport package, moonroof, xenons for $34,800 ($1,200 under invoice), only $1,400 more than the TL.
There you go again comparing a non-navi 330i to a navi TL. It's a non comparison, so your $1400 prise difference is incorrect, it's more like $5000. If your equating the TL's NAV to the 330i's better handling which I think your are it is still faulty. There are many other features that the TL has over the 330i that your leaving out. Also considering the TL has a better 0-60. The handling on TL might not be as good as the 330i but it the difference isn't light years, certainly not as great as making it comparable to a whole navigation unit.
You're right, I didn't compare the non-Nav TL to the non-Nav 330i. Primarily because I wouldn't pay $1,700 for the BMW unit, but I would (and am) paying $2,000+ for the TL's unit, which is the best in the industry. However, I stand by my point - the fact that the TL has more and better gizmos is nice, but not what I use in deciding to buy a car that i will be DRIVING for the next 7-10 years and 100,000 - 150,000 miles. Want to make a bet that in 2 years all of the technology - nav system included - in the TL will be par for the course (or maybe even obsolete) compared to other near premium sedans??
As for 0-60, I can assure you that as a soon to be TL 6-speed owner, I'd be dishonest to claim the TL is as quick or quicker than the 330i 6-speed, at least in the real world way I drive. The TL is much trickier to launch quickly and the torque really doesn't kick in until higher in the rev band. I didn't do "clutch drops" at 7,000 rpm with my S2000, so I'm not going to do them at 5,000 rpm in the TL. So, given the way I drive, the 330i would be a quicker car. That's fine for me, I am just being honest for others that might care about 0-60 times without clutch replacement expenses.
Handling is somewhat subjective. The TL is much better than my 1995 Maxima. The 330i sport isn't nearly as good as the Honda S2000 I am departing with. But between the two, the difference between FWD and RWD, 60/40 vs. 50/50 weight distribution and good vs. great steering is noticable. But the TL is still pretty darn good and I can't justify dropping down in size for a 3-series (or I would get the M3).
But, as a final point, even with a $5,000 apples to apples price difference, for anyone who keeps cars 3-5 years or less, the 330i would likely make up that difference on resale. My Acura dealership has a pristine 2002 TL-S with 24,000 miles on their lot stickered at $17,900. A business associate sold his 1999 328i with 47,000 miles last fall for $16,500. Low mileage 2002 330i's can fetch around $22,000 - $25,000 in my area. You do the math.
The TL is certainly an exceptional car, or I wouldn't be buying it. I think we can agree on that! Have a good day.
Now that we are finally into the air conditioning season in Ontario, I have a question about the TL's climate control. Why is it necessary to turn the A/C on and off manually? In my 97 Maxima the climate control system did that automatically. You simply set the desired temperature and the system decided whether it was necessary to apply heat or A/C to get there and what mixture of external air was needed. Why doesn't the TL's system do that? I would think it would be more sophisticated that the system in a 7 year old Maxima.
One thing to consider is body styling. The 3 series BMW is due an update like the 7 and 5 series probably next year. Due to the longevity of the existing 3 series styling your "New" BMW will look just like every other 3 series on the road regardless of age. I kinda like the fact that I see no 2004 TLs on my commute to work in the small town I live in. It is a new body style so it will be regarded as a "New" car until Acura makes the 4th generation.
My 2004 TL has attracted small crowds at parking lots before due to it looks and rarity. The closest Acura dealer is 50 miles away so it is a first glance for many people in my town. I realize that looks are not everything but it seams you are on the fence right now ready to lean either way. Also, the TL handles wonderfully for the type of driving 95% of people will use it for. However, if you are in that 5% class then i can understand your consideration of the 3 series.
BTW, I consider the TL to be a closer comparison to the 5 series myself if I am trying to compare value.
BMW has a better resale value than the TL? That may be but in no way would it make up for the difference. Acura's resale value is pretty high. Also you might want to consider reliability. The TL is ranked #1 while BMW reliability has faltered in recent years. Also a BMW 3 series isn't really a compatible comparison. The TL was benchmarked to the 5 series when they designed it.
Any way it sounds like your into the BMW image so I suggest that you go with the BMW. I think the car is more your type.
My understanding is the 330i Sport (?) is not the performance oriented version of the BMW.
The 330i High Performance, actually does change the suspenion, final drive and even HP statistics, etc.
Generally speaking, in the real world, the TL will do almost everything better, the way most people drive, than a 330i NON High Performance, and even that it doubtful, unless you will only and exclusively drive on dry pavement.
Now, the 330xi, with sport package -- is another matter entirely.
Look for the extra $10,000 difference over a "comparably" equipped TL -- BMW keeps it in the glove box, leather bound, and they use small bills.
The torque steer in the TL IS real -- but the overall package for the money, the refinement and all the other stuff that we know about are all in the TL favor -- moreso when price is factored in.
I love German cars -- espcially Audis, you know me -- but there is NO current 3 series that makes sense compared to the TL with navi and 6spd.
I am not sure what you mean about turning the A/C on and off manually. There is a button that disables the A/C but it can be left on at all times. The system will then use the A/C when needed to keep the cabin at the temp set. If no A/C is need (ie cold days) the pump is not running even if the A/C is enabled. The ability to turn of the A/C is kinda nice for people who want to use airflow to cool their car on semi temperate days. In "Auto" mode the car does quite well at adjusting the fans and A/C-heat to keep the cabin comfortable.
BTW I understand that the A/C system in the Navi equipped model when set in "Auto" mode will determine the position of the sun based upon what direction you are headed in and adjust the flow of hot/cold air accordingly. That is about as sophisticated as you can get.
Actually nobody know what will be the resale value of the new TL until a couple years from now. Besides the previous version of TL has transmission problems.
BMW has a higher resale value if you are talking about dollar to dollar (not percentage), but the price when it was bought, was way up higher then . Let alone all those options that were installed that could raise the price. The resale value will matter when the car had 60000 mileage. (I always afraid to think that I can only put a certain amount of mileage before the car's value was gone, I know thats just me)
Actually I'm quite surprised that 330i can be had at $1400 under invoice($2400 incentive). Before I bought this TL, I also considered 330i but it was higher than I expected. Later on I learned there are a lot of stuff in TL that override the prestige value. And now I am happy.
Thanks. I guess i need to reread that part of the manual. I found the first time it got warm that I had to turn on the A/C and this morning when it was cool I had to turn it off to get some heat - hence my misperception.
I do like the BMWs , and was only comparing the 325i to the TL. I think I agree with habitat that there are good things to say about the bimmer. The responsiveness and handling are very good in the 325i. The interior is not as nice, and standard equipment is lacking.
Is torque steer in TL that important ? well, to us it will not be. We need a commute car, a nice one....and TL seems to fit the bill....however, we like performance , so my question is: should I get the 6 spd manual, or auto ? We also have kids and wife is on the phone a lot,so may like the hands free ability of the auto....we both drive manual, but is the difference that big between the two ?
For commuting you will love the TL, it is built for commuting with the handsfreelink and XM radio. I drive the 6-spd and I love it, if you guys are driving manual I think you will regret getting automatic if you get it. I have read several posts on this board where people said they wish they got the 6-spd instead.
I like the 6speed. It puts the car in another leaque, IMO. My wife has driven sticks for a lot of her life, but I know she is now happier in an automatic. There is a considerable amount of torque steer that she may not be happy with. However, you can drive the TL around town all day in 3rd gear and not even know it because it is so quiet. The clutch takeup is sometimes tricky. Truth is, I think you will like the 6 speed better and she will like the auto better(but I'm just guessing) If you get serious, please have her spend some time in all conditions with the 6speed before purchase. If she's happy- you're probably happy. If she's not, you're probably back in the car market again real soon. I think you know I've had a little experience in the arena of too frequent car trading!LOL Good luck on the search. We know it's the fun part.
I won't repeat my post #1545 over in the "TL Prices Paid ...", but I do advocate anyone on the fence test driving both the 6-speed and auto before making a final decision.
Also, regarding the BMW "image" thing, let's not forget that the Acura nameplate was specifically created to give it a more upscale "image" than Honda for North American buyers. In fact, TL's and Accords are both made in Ohio. I myself don't give a hoot about the image of a nameplate. The "Honda" S2000 is more technologically advanced from an engineering perspective than anything made by Acura, including the long in the tooth NSX. I don't think I would have been any less interested in buying a TL if it were made by Honda instead of Acura (or if the Acura designation didn't even exist). The extra year of warranty is diminimus, in my opinion. And my appreciation for BMW is strictly based upon how some of their models perform, based upon my personal test drives, not on the BMW "image", whatever that is.
Time to start some controversy and opinions on what YOU would change about the TL in 2005!! Obviously, very little will actually change but we can dream:) Here's my thoughts...
ADDS 1) Smartkey access. This feature would be used by EVERYONE and EVERTIME they use their TL! This feature has become so popular in the 2004 LS 430 that nearly every LS car now being made has this option. Glad to hear its coming to the new RL!
2) Improved brakes. Like to see Brembo be standard on the automatics.
3) RDS for AM/FM radio stations.
4) All-wheel drive option. Hey, Infiniti did it with their G35, why not Acura? Of course, Infinity started off with a rear-wheel drive vehicle.
DELETES 1) DVD Audio. In my opinion, DVD Audio is NOT taking off. For the past six months, I've not seen many new titles appear on DVD. Also, to my knowledge, no other car (except for perhaps the new RL) will have DVD audio.
2) Bluetooth phones should be part of the NAV package and NOT standard equipment. A good majority of us do NOT have Bluetooth phones nor are the phones available on some of the major phone services. I don't want to pay for something I can't use!
True Speed sensative wipers, not just on the fastest delay mode
A real trip computer/info center (like the G35) that tells you everything.
Less buttons to get to the trip computer. Why can't I see the trip computer AND the outside temperature at the same time? Why must I choose?
Song Name/Artist info on radio stations. It does this for XM, so why can't it do this for FM stations like many other manufactures can? It is one of the best systems out, so how could they overlook this?
A place to put my DVD-As. The current space (other than the door) won't allow full size jewel cases to fit. The door is impractical due to ergonomics. You have to open the door flap to get anything of that size in or out easily.
Parchment interior for the blue exterior! Oh I wish I could of had that.
Am I having deja vu or didn't you post this same list of suggestions several days ago??
Now that I am joining the ranks of TL owners Saturday morning, I'll respond again:
Smartkey access: Nice do-dad, but not a big deal in my opinion. I'm coming from a 1995 Nissan Maxima that doesn't even have remote access or power seats. The TL offers remote access and automatic memory seat adjustment from the key fob. Going all the way to a "keyless" system reminds me of several times our neighbor was locked out of his Mercedes and the darn thing didn't work.
Improved brakes: I'm getting the 6-speed with Brembo and HPT.
RDS for AM/FM: Sorry, I'm acronym challenged and don't know what RDS is. On the other hand, I am interested in the XM satellite radio. I would have thought it was a gizmo, but several people I know who have it are very pleased.
All wheel drive - I'll take RWD at the same weight (already a hefty 3,500 lbs) than AWD with another 250 pounds to lug around. The TL, with only 238 ft-lb of torque (at high rpm), would need a new engine with the added weight. Fell how sluggish an AWD Audi A4 or even A6 feels, if you don't believe me. For performance, handling and weight management, RWD is better, IMO. For all weather versitility, I'll drive our SUV through the snow.
DVD Audio - No opinion myself, but the car plays everything, so why do you care??
Bluetooth - Sorry, but you need to get with the program. I traded in my Sprint PCS phone for a Blutooth phone from ATT Wireless and am saving $20 per month on our calling plan in the process. Yes, I had to pay $200 for the phone, but my crappy 2 year old Sprint phone wasn't holding a charge that well anymore. The cost of a hands free phone system in a Mercedes or BMW had been north of $1,500 or $2,000. The Acura TL Bluetooth system is, from what I see, an even better system, with more flexibility, and it's standard. Any wireless carrier that is slow to embrace Bluetooth should be prepared to lose customers, even a relatively old, technology challenged, business guy like me. You are welcome to use your hand held cell phone if you want, or wear one of those nerdy headpieces, but I'll take Bluetooth in a heartbeat and free my hands up to drive a 6-speed.
P.S. Although technology challenged, I have enough business smarts to know that the incremental cost of installing Bluetooth is relatively low. You aren't going to save much on a $33k car to make it an option. Just the opposite, one of Honda/Acura's smart moves, IMO, is to avoid the nickle and diming options game. I was darn close to buying a Boxster S in late 2001 instead of an S2000. But the option list on the $49,000 Porsche was absurdly long. The S2000 had none. Pick your color and go.
Bluetooth is almost a must have -- in essence hands free, eyes free will, IMHO, soon become the law of the land. Big brotherism, perhaps, but the morons I see driving while talking on a hand-held phone and eating and drinking and smoking and shaving and primping and and and -- heck even if it weren't a safety feature you'd think one would want it for convenience!
DVD-A -- I agree, the sound system plays everything and there ARE many DTS disks -- just try Abraxis in DTS -- well done!
SH AWD -- @ under 200 pounds and perhaps a tweak to the engine to raise the torque a few pound-feet -- no brainer, there.
RDS -- now this is a new one on me. I have had RDS in my German cars FOR YEARS (and you know the GERMANS are nortoriously late adopters) [Radio Data Service, Radio Display System, or something like that -- it does display the station, text, including the song title, artist, weather, or anything the station wants to publish -- it is, so far, text -- I am amazed that the TL doesn't have it, must be an oversite; and what about weather radio?]
Those posts (5945 & 5944 I think) were copies from the Prices Paid & Buying experience forum. This forum is a more appropriate place for this discussion.
Too busy enjoying it and reading the manuals to offer much of a review, but I have to say the fit and finishing is first rate, inside and out! Panel gaps are narrrow and consistent. Miles ahead of the old TL/CL in that regard. Car very quiet. "Composed" would be the word to describe the car. It builds speed unobtrusively, whereas the old Type-S displayed more of a frenzy when you shove your right foot down. TL seems to give up a bit of "excitement" for composure -- a trade-off I'm quite willing to take. So far -- I LOVE IT!!
Trying to get used to the decreased rear visibility, and still trying to re-train my left leg not to lift instinctively like a dog taking a pee everytime I park!
Bodble, congratulations on your new car. Is it an auto or stick, and does it come with Nav? If yes for nav, does it also cover U.S.? I go to Canada often because my godparents live in Ottawa and I have lots of friends in Montreal and Toronto. It would be great if the nav covers both countries. Make sure you read the training manual carefully and don't get mixed up with "toilet training" :-)
Habitat, congrats to you too and the great deal you made!! Although we know you have test driven the car several times, make sure you give us a more thorough review after you pick up your new baby tomorrow. What color combo is your TL?
With sooo many people buying the TL (particularly former Maxima owners), I am kind of miffed at my wife for urging me to buy the 03 Max because she didn't want to drive her 92 Max (which was in pristine condition with 70k miles). Well, I guess I will have to wait eagerly for a couple of years before I shop for another new car. RATS!!
Thanks for the congrats. The color combo is Antracite / Ebony. And, by the way, Im keeping my 1995 Maxima SE for the time being - relocting it to our second home. At 153k miles it's pretty worthless in a trade, but it still looks and runs very well.
I'll post my impressions (and mpg) after our trip back on Monday.
Thanks! Mine's the auto w/Navi. Can't get Navi with stick in Canada. And the Navi covers all of continental North America (although I think Alaska is not included).
does anyone find the throttle spring kind of stiff? I suppose that's the "Euro feel", but it takes a bit getting used to coming from the CL-S where just the weight of my size 8 1/2 Nike on the pedal was enough to get the car over city speed limit!
What's wrong with the Bluetooth in your TL? Poor reception? Difficult to hear?
I ended up getting a Motorola V600 phone at $240 based upon reports that some of the less expensive models didn't work as well with the TL system. I'll be testing it our this afternoon.
While most would agree that the 04 TL has better styling than the previous generation TL, the downside is reduced visibility. My wife and I noticed that rear visibility was especially bad during our first test drive of 04 last Oct when compared to the 01 TL she traded in. We removed the rear headrests for another test drive and then found the rear visibility somewhat improved. We removed the headrests when the car was delivered to us and these have not been put back on since. The rear seat is used infrequently.
It is unfortunate what we give up to safety over styling. For those of you coming over from 95-99 generation Maxima, you will find that the old Max was superior to new 04 TL on visibility. We kept our old 97 Max SE and traded in the 01 TL. (Max was worth very little on trade-in with over 150K.) We can readily compare the visibility attributes between the 04 TL and 97 Max.
It would be interesting to know if Insurance Institute for Safety or some government agency tests visibility of vehicles and assigns quantitative values. If this data were available, could Acura say that 04 was new and improved over 03? Would they have a disclaimer saying that 04 was new and improved "except" that safety may be compromised because of reduced visibility?
I have the SE T610 from T-Mobile. I can't de-activate the bluetooth function in the phone when a connection is up (no call, just the readout).
I have had the system drop calls back to the phone - hello, hello - oh I need the phone next to my ear now. Thanks.
There is a noticeable delay (about 1.5 secs) when answering a call before I can speak, be heard and hear the other party- hello... hello...
The voice recognition is the worst - it pulls the wrong entry from the phone book, invariably adds a digit or thinks I said pound. I have to dial in three digit increments. About 50% of my sessions are like this: H= me, C=car
H:" call 703" wait, C: would you like to ca- H: "555", C: #3 H: hit back button C: 703 H: 555 C: 555 H: 1234 C: 234 H: hit back button C: 555 H: 1,2,3,4 C: 1234 C: Would you like to call... H: Call C: please say entry or number to dial H: ARGH!!! C: #3
Trying to do this while driving with any open windows is next to impossible. Frankly, it is almost less distracting to use the key pad and hold the phone to my ear.
Fighter pilots have a name for the voice that says "pull up, pull up". That'w what I call my bluetooth secretary.
If it's just me (and it could be), I'd like to know so that I can find a speech coach.
This is what I usually do with the voice-recognition
H: call C: what name or number ... H: (press talk button)847 C: say more number or say call H: (press talk button)123 C: 847 123 H: (press talk button)5678 -- that is for dialing a number, it works everytime.
I dunno about "call 847" will work or supposed to work.
Yes, that's what I do, and it works about 50% of the time to get through 10 digits without having to make a correction, but I'm interested to know if anyone is able to list 10 digits in the same session and get the desired phone number ready to dial. ?
Has anyone tried playing DVD-R or DVD+R discs (with CDA or other compatible audio files) in the TL? I don't have a TL yet...I'm curious if I can rip my own songs to DVDs to play in the car (and get more music than you can get on a CD)..
DVD - YES - You can rip your own DVDs using a program called Discwelder Bronze. If you have the patience, you can put up to 99 songs on one DVD (limit of the system).
HandsFree - to ALL - please bear in mind that several studies in the USA and in Scandinavia have shown conclusively that using hands-free allows the user to be considerable MORE inattentive to driving than if holding the phone.
The latest study showed that drivers using hands-free had reaction times 50% SLOWER than DRUNK drivers. BE VERY CAREFUL! Pull over if you have an extended or involved call.
Also- On an Acura related forum, many members have posted that the voice recognition takes some getting used to. Forget about using it with the windows open. The "white noise" created by wind completely blocks intelligibility - even for many humans! Talk slow and clear.
Not only that but if the vent is on high you can forget about voice recognition also. You have to speak slow, concise, and loud. It's easier just to reach over and pick up the fricken button. This goes for all voice recognition, the technology just isn't there yet.
I can understand that wind noise (etc.) can interfere with voice recognition and hands free operations. But to say using hands free devices may result in a more dangerous and inattentive condition to the driver seems counterintuitive. I thought all government studies point to the advantage of hands free devices. In fact, many states have passed laws banning the use of hand-held cell phones while driving. IMHO, I would consider the "several studies" in the USA and Scandavania carefully before giving them any weight.
...works pretty well for me so far. I have a spanking new Bluetooth phone (Sony/Ericsson T616 on Cingular) and a ravishing new non-navi TL. She seems to understand 10-digit phone numbers just fine. Diction, you know. ;>)
I like it but have to admit it can be a distraction. If the steering wheel is turned it is hard to find the buttons on the wheel. However after using it some it does get easier. Maybe being an old foggie has something to do with the fact I find it a distraction.
Just returned from our weekend trip to PA. Picked up our anthracite/ebony TL 6-speed w/ Nav on Saturday. The dealer had everything ready to go, signed about 6 forms in less than 5 minutes, handed them a check, and then got a very efficient 20-30 minute tutorial from the sales person. He linked up my Motorola V600 phone and it works like a charm.
My initial impressions are very positive. No rattles of any kind, at least not yet. The clutch and drive by wire throttle will still take some getting used to, but it's coming along. Gas mileage on a mostly highway 310 mile tankful on the trip home was right at 28.1 mpg by my actual calculation; the trip computer said 28 mpg. I expect the mileage to go up a bit at a steady highway speed, but I varied the speed / gears and didn't use cruise control per the break-in instructions.
Hoyahenry: As far as the Bluetooth / handsfree phone, mine worked great. I just say "call xxx-xxx-xxxx", get a immediate pop up verification of the number on the dash and then hit the button and say "dial". I've tried it at least 5-6 times and haven't gotten a wrong number yet.
The navigation system has already started paying for itself. We were caught in no less than three accidents / Memorial Day traffic jams on the PA Turnpike and MD Route 70. Jumped off and skirted around them on back roads and probably saved an hour or more.
XM radio is one of my wife's (and kids') favorite features. We tried out quite a few channels coming home, ranging from the 70's, 80's and 90's decades to the Disney Channel. I suspect they will get a renewal subscription out of me when the three free months are up. Hoyahenry: I did have a bit of difficulty in my first few attempts to change the radio channels by voice control. Kept asking for "XM 115" (saying, one hundred fifteen) and would get "XM 150". It worked once I said "XM 1-1-5" (saying one, one, five).
It was a little sad handing the keys over to my S2000. The dealership (Mercedes / Acura) promptly put the S2000 in their feature platform in front of the dealership. But it served it's purpose well and the TL seems like it will offer a lot of reasons not to look back.
P.S. The dealership also had a brand new gray/charcoal E55 awaiting delivery. Tempting, but at a mere $50,000 over the TL, I elected to be prudent. Besides, no 6-speed!
I must have missed it, but I didn't know you were trading in your beloved S2000. I thought for sure you would keep it just as a weekend car.
My TL doesn't have any rattles so far, but there are a couple of minor squeaks that seem to be temperature-sensitive -- one in the moonroof interior shade and one somewhere in the dash near the ignition key area.
And do you find the throttle spring a little too stiff? Not so much once you get up to cruising speed but during acceleration when you have to push down quite a bit.
Good review, Habitat. Glad that you are happy with your new TL, particularly with the cutting edge technology gadgets. You and your family certainly would not have been able to make the same trip with the 2-seater S2000, and the new TL appears to be a perfect prescription :-) How accurate is the Nav? Does the computer screen add more complexity to otherwise simple button-pushing functions (such as adjusting the AC and radio)?
Are there supposed to be 3 manuals, or just two. I thought someone had posted earlier that the TL comes with 3 manuals.
Also, the Nav manual makes reference to a HVAC, or AC screen. But there is no such screen, am I right? There is just the Nav screen and the audio screen. The HVAC info is all on the top strip above the screen.
Comments
I got a Sony Ericsson T616 (ATT Wireless)...works seamlessly with TL. Only negative are the tiny buttons on the keyboard but in the car it really does not bother me.
SK
Don't misunderstand my position--the TL IS a compromise, but one I personally am happy to make. Once you factor in $$, it was, for me, a no brainer.
In reference to the Bimmers, $ was a consideration for me, but if you're truly going to compare apples to apples, it is my humble opinion the TL should be compared with the 5 series, and in that event, a 545i equipped like the TL will run you $25-30k MORE, not an insignificant sum (to me). I do recognize BMW's superiority as far as the suspensions are concerned, and the 3.0 inline 6 is liquid smooth, and I believe under-rated as far as hp/torque specs. But again, the 330i is a much smaller vehicle than the TL, has a single in-dash cd player, no satellite radio, and you still have to add in the cost of your trip to be fair to yourself.
Either way, you'll enjoy the vehicle, and good luck.
There you go again comparing a non-navi 330i to a navi TL. It's a non comparison, so your $1400 prise difference is incorrect, it's more like $5000. If your equating the TL's NAV to the 330i's better handling which I think your are it is still faulty. There are many other features that the TL has over the 330i that your leaving out. Also considering the TL has a better 0-60. The handling on TL might not be as good as the 330i but it the difference isn't light years, certainly not as great as making it comparable to a whole navigation unit.
As for 0-60, I can assure you that as a soon to be TL 6-speed owner, I'd be dishonest to claim the TL is as quick or quicker than the 330i 6-speed, at least in the real world way I drive. The TL is much trickier to launch quickly and the torque really doesn't kick in until higher in the rev band. I didn't do "clutch drops" at 7,000 rpm with my S2000, so I'm not going to do them at 5,000 rpm in the TL. So, given the way I drive, the 330i would be a quicker car. That's fine for me, I am just being honest for others that might care about 0-60 times without clutch replacement expenses.
Handling is somewhat subjective. The TL is much better than my 1995 Maxima. The 330i sport isn't nearly as good as the Honda S2000 I am departing with. But between the two, the difference between FWD and RWD, 60/40 vs. 50/50 weight distribution and good vs. great steering is noticable. But the TL is still pretty darn good and I can't justify dropping down in size for a 3-series (or I would get the M3).
But, as a final point, even with a $5,000 apples to apples price difference, for anyone who keeps cars 3-5 years or less, the 330i would likely make up that difference on resale. My Acura dealership has a pristine 2002 TL-S with 24,000 miles on their lot stickered at $17,900. A business associate sold his 1999 328i with 47,000 miles last fall for $16,500. Low mileage 2002 330i's can fetch around $22,000 - $25,000 in my area. You do the math.
The TL is certainly an exceptional car, or I wouldn't be buying it. I think we can agree on that! Have a good day.
One thing to consider is body styling. The 3 series BMW is due an update like the 7 and 5 series probably next year. Due to the longevity of the existing 3 series styling your "New" BMW will look just like every other 3 series on the road regardless of age. I kinda like the fact that I see no 2004 TLs on my commute to work in the small town I live in. It is a new body style so it will be regarded as a "New" car until Acura makes the 4th generation.
My 2004 TL has attracted small crowds at parking lots before due to it looks and rarity. The closest Acura dealer is 50 miles away so it is a first glance for many people in my town. I realize that looks are not everything but it seams you are on the fence right now ready to lean either way. Also, the TL handles wonderfully for the type of driving 95% of people will use it for. However, if you are in that 5% class then i can understand your consideration of the 3 series.
BTW, I consider the TL to be a closer comparison to the 5 series myself if I am trying to compare value.
Any way it sounds like your into the BMW image so I suggest that you go with the BMW. I think the car is more your type.
The 330i High Performance, actually does change the suspenion, final drive and even HP statistics, etc.
Generally speaking, in the real world, the TL will do almost everything better, the way most people drive, than a 330i NON High Performance, and even that it doubtful, unless you will only and exclusively drive on dry pavement.
Now, the 330xi, with sport package -- is another matter entirely.
Look for the extra $10,000 difference over a "comparably" equipped TL -- BMW keeps it in the glove box, leather bound, and they use small bills.
The torque steer in the TL IS real -- but the overall package for the money, the refinement and all the other stuff that we know about are all in the TL favor -- moreso when price is factored in.
I love German cars -- espcially Audis, you know me -- but there is NO current 3 series that makes sense compared to the TL with navi and 6spd.
BTW I understand that the A/C system in the Navi equipped model when set in "Auto" mode will determine the position of the sun based upon what direction you are headed in and adjust the flow of hot/cold air accordingly. That is about as sophisticated as you can get.
BMW has a higher resale value if you are talking about dollar to dollar (not percentage), but the price when it was bought, was way up higher then . Let alone all those options that were installed that could raise the price. The resale value will matter when the car had 60000 mileage. (I always afraid to think that I can only put a certain amount of mileage before the car's value was gone, I know thats just me)
Actually I'm quite surprised that 330i can be had at $1400 under invoice($2400 incentive). Before I bought this TL, I also considered 330i but it was higher than I expected. Later on I learned there are a lot of stuff in TL that override the prestige value. And now I am happy.
This is the link about resale value and you cant go wrong with either car.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/2004-02-24-residual.htm
I do like the BMWs , and was only comparing the 325i to the TL. I think I agree with habitat that there are good things to say about the bimmer. The responsiveness and handling are very good in the 325i. The interior is not as nice, and standard equipment is lacking.
Is torque steer in TL that important ? well, to us it will not be. We need a commute car, a nice one....and TL seems to fit the bill....however, we like performance , so my question is:
should I get the 6 spd manual, or auto ? We also have kids and wife is on the phone a lot,so may like the hands free ability of the auto....we both drive manual, but is the difference that big between the two ?
thanks.....
Also, regarding the BMW "image" thing, let's not forget that the Acura nameplate was specifically created to give it a more upscale "image" than Honda for North American buyers. In fact, TL's and Accords are both made in Ohio. I myself don't give a hoot about the image of a nameplate. The "Honda" S2000 is more technologically advanced from an engineering perspective than anything made by Acura, including the long in the tooth NSX. I don't think I would have been any less interested in buying a TL if it were made by Honda instead of Acura (or if the Acura designation didn't even exist). The extra year of warranty is diminimus, in my opinion. And my appreciation for BMW is strictly based upon how some of their models perform, based upon my personal test drives, not on the BMW "image", whatever that is.
ADDS
1) Smartkey access. This feature would be used by EVERYONE and EVERTIME they use their TL! This feature has become so popular in the 2004 LS 430 that nearly every LS car now being made has this option. Glad to hear its coming to the new RL!
2) Improved brakes. Like to see Brembo be standard on the automatics.
3) RDS for AM/FM radio stations.
4) All-wheel drive option. Hey, Infiniti did it with their G35, why not Acura? Of course, Infinity started off with a rear-wheel drive vehicle.
DELETES
1) DVD Audio. In my opinion, DVD Audio is NOT taking off. For the past six months, I've not seen many new titles appear on DVD. Also, to my knowledge, no other car (except for perhaps the new RL) will have DVD audio.
2) Bluetooth phones should be part of the NAV package and NOT standard equipment. A good majority of us do NOT have Bluetooth phones nor are the phones available on some of the major phone services. I don't want to pay for something I can't use!
Speed Sensative Volume for the radio.
A compass in the mirror or by the clock.
True Speed sensative wipers, not just on the fastest delay mode
A real trip computer/info center (like the G35) that tells you everything.
Less buttons to get to the trip computer. Why can't I see the trip computer AND the outside temperature at the same time? Why must I choose?
Song Name/Artist info on radio stations. It does this for XM, so why can't it do this for FM stations like many other manufactures can? It is one of the best systems out, so how could they overlook this?
A place to put my DVD-As. The current space (other than the door) won't allow full size jewel cases to fit. The door is impractical due to ergonomics. You have to open the door flap to get anything of that size in or out easily.
Parchment interior for the blue exterior! Oh I wish I could of had that.
Better tires. Enough said.
I feel much better now thank you.
Now that I am joining the ranks of TL owners Saturday morning, I'll respond again:
Smartkey access: Nice do-dad, but not a big deal in my opinion. I'm coming from a 1995 Nissan Maxima that doesn't even have remote access or power seats. The TL offers remote access and automatic memory seat adjustment from the key fob. Going all the way to a "keyless" system reminds me of several times our neighbor was locked out of his Mercedes and the darn thing didn't work.
Improved brakes: I'm getting the 6-speed with Brembo and HPT.
RDS for AM/FM: Sorry, I'm acronym challenged and don't know what RDS is. On the other hand, I am interested in the XM satellite radio. I would have thought it was a gizmo, but several people I know who have it are very pleased.
All wheel drive - I'll take RWD at the same weight (already a hefty 3,500 lbs) than AWD with another 250 pounds to lug around. The TL, with only 238 ft-lb of torque (at high rpm), would need a new engine with the added weight. Fell how sluggish an AWD Audi A4 or even A6 feels, if you don't believe me. For performance, handling and weight management, RWD is better, IMO. For all weather versitility, I'll drive our SUV through the snow.
DVD Audio - No opinion myself, but the car plays everything, so why do you care??
Bluetooth - Sorry, but you need to get with the program. I traded in my Sprint PCS phone for a Blutooth phone from ATT Wireless and am saving $20 per month on our calling plan in the process. Yes, I had to pay $200 for the phone, but my crappy 2 year old Sprint phone wasn't holding a charge that well anymore. The cost of a hands free phone system in a Mercedes or BMW had been north of $1,500 or $2,000. The Acura TL Bluetooth system is, from what I see, an even better system, with more flexibility, and it's standard. Any wireless carrier that is slow to embrace Bluetooth should be prepared to lose customers, even a relatively old, technology challenged, business guy like me. You are welcome to use your hand held cell phone if you want, or wear one of those nerdy headpieces, but I'll take Bluetooth in a heartbeat and free my hands up to drive a 6-speed.
P.S. Although technology challenged, I have enough business smarts to know that the incremental cost of installing Bluetooth is relatively low. You aren't going to save much on a $33k car to make it an option. Just the opposite, one of Honda/Acura's smart moves, IMO, is to avoid the nickle and diming options game. I was darn close to buying a Boxster S in late 2001 instead of an S2000. But the option list on the $49,000 Porsche was absurdly long. The S2000 had none. Pick your color and go.
DVD-A -- I agree, the sound system plays everything and there ARE many DTS disks -- just try Abraxis in DTS -- well done!
SH AWD -- @ under 200 pounds and perhaps a tweak to the engine to raise the torque a few pound-feet -- no brainer, there.
RDS -- now this is a new one on me. I have had RDS in my German cars FOR YEARS (and you know the GERMANS are nortoriously late adopters) [Radio Data Service, Radio Display System, or something like that -- it does display the station, text, including the song title, artist, weather, or anything the station wants to publish -- it is, so far, text -- I am amazed that the TL doesn't have it, must be an oversite; and what about weather radio?]
Trying to get used to the decreased rear visibility, and still trying to re-train my left leg not to lift instinctively like a dog taking a pee everytime I park!
Habitat, congrats to you too and the great deal you made!! Although we know you have test driven the car several times, make sure you give us a more thorough review after you pick up your new baby tomorrow. What color combo is your TL?
With sooo many people buying the TL (particularly former Maxima owners), I am kind of miffed at my wife for urging me to buy the 03 Max because she didn't want to drive her 92 Max (which was in pristine condition with 70k miles). Well, I guess I will have to wait eagerly for a couple of years before I shop for another new car. RATS!!
I'll post my impressions (and mpg) after our trip back on Monday.
Take care.
I just wish it worked better.
I ended up getting a Motorola V600 phone at $240 based upon reports that some of the less expensive models didn't work as well with the TL system. I'll be testing it our this afternoon.
It is unfortunate what we give up to safety over styling. For those of you coming over from 95-99 generation Maxima, you will find that the old Max was superior to new 04 TL on visibility. We kept our old 97 Max SE and traded in the 01 TL. (Max was worth very little on trade-in with over 150K.) We can readily compare the visibility attributes between the 04 TL and 97 Max.
It would be interesting to know if Insurance Institute for Safety or some government agency tests visibility of vehicles and assigns quantitative values. If this data were available, could Acura say that 04 was new and improved over 03? Would they have a disclaimer saying that 04 was new and improved "except" that safety may be compromised because of reduced visibility?
I have had the system drop calls back to the phone - hello, hello - oh I need the phone next to my ear now. Thanks.
There is a noticeable delay (about 1.5 secs) when answering a call before I can speak, be heard and hear the other party- hello... hello...
The voice recognition is the worst - it pulls the wrong entry from the phone book, invariably adds a digit or thinks I said pound. I have to dial in three digit increments. About 50% of my sessions are like this: H= me, C=car
H:" call 703" wait,
C: would you like to ca-
H: "555",
C: #3
H: hit back button
C: 703
H: 555
C: 555
H: 1234
C: 234
H: hit back button
C: 555
H: 1,2,3,4
C: 1234
C: Would you like to call...
H: Call
C: please say entry or number to dial
H: ARGH!!!
C: #3
Trying to do this while driving with any open windows is next to impossible. Frankly, it is almost less distracting to use the key pad and hold the phone to my ear.
Fighter pilots have a name for the voice that says "pull up, pull up". That'w what I call my bluetooth secretary.
If it's just me (and it could be), I'd like to know so that I can find a speech coach.
H: call
C: what name or number ...
H: (press talk button)847
C: say more number or say call
H: (press talk button)123
C: 847 123
H: (press talk button)5678
-- that is for dialing a number, it works everytime.
I dunno about "call 847" will work or supposed to work.
hope this helps
HandsFree - to ALL - please bear in mind that several studies in the USA and in Scandinavia have shown conclusively that using hands-free allows the user to be considerable MORE inattentive to driving than if holding the phone.
The latest study showed that drivers using hands-free had reaction times 50% SLOWER than DRUNK drivers. BE VERY CAREFUL! Pull over if you have an extended or involved call.
Also- On an Acura related forum, many members have posted that the voice recognition takes some getting used to. Forget about using it with the windows open. The "white noise" created by wind completely blocks intelligibility - even for many humans! Talk slow and clear.
My initial impressions are very positive. No rattles of any kind, at least not yet. The clutch and drive by wire throttle will still take some getting used to, but it's coming along. Gas mileage on a mostly highway 310 mile tankful on the trip home was right at 28.1 mpg by my actual calculation; the trip computer said 28 mpg. I expect the mileage to go up a bit at a steady highway speed, but I varied the speed / gears and didn't use cruise control per the break-in instructions.
Hoyahenry: As far as the Bluetooth / handsfree phone, mine worked great. I just say "call xxx-xxx-xxxx", get a immediate pop up verification of the number on the dash and then hit the button and say "dial". I've tried it at least 5-6 times and haven't gotten a wrong number yet.
The navigation system has already started paying for itself. We were caught in no less than three accidents / Memorial Day traffic jams on the PA Turnpike and MD Route 70. Jumped off and skirted around them on back roads and probably saved an hour or more.
XM radio is one of my wife's (and kids') favorite features. We tried out quite a few channels coming home, ranging from the 70's, 80's and 90's decades to the Disney Channel. I suspect they will get a renewal subscription out of me when the three free months are up. Hoyahenry: I did have a bit of difficulty in my first few attempts to change the radio channels by voice control. Kept asking for "XM 115" (saying, one hundred fifteen) and would get "XM 150". It worked once I said "XM 1-1-5" (saying one, one, five).
It was a little sad handing the keys over to my S2000. The dealership (Mercedes / Acura) promptly put the S2000 in their feature platform in front of the dealership. But it served it's purpose well and the TL seems like it will offer a lot of reasons not to look back.
P.S. The dealership also had a brand new gray/charcoal E55 awaiting delivery. Tempting, but at a mere $50,000 over the TL, I elected to be prudent. Besides, no 6-speed!
My TL doesn't have any rattles so far, but there are a couple of minor squeaks that seem to be temperature-sensitive -- one in the moonroof interior shade and one somewhere in the dash near the ignition key area.
And do you find the throttle spring a little too stiff? Not so much once you get up to cruising speed but during acceleration when you have to push down quite a bit.
I will get a Garmin 296 - it won't compete, but then I prefer the airways to the interstates on holiday weekends.
Also, the Nav manual makes reference to a HVAC, or AC screen. But there is no such screen, am I right? There is just the Nav screen and the audio screen. The HVAC info is all on the top strip above the screen.