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Comments
Let's stick to the cars, folks. Just ignore the posts which you regard as "trolling" and don't worry about the behavior of others.
If you have a specific concern, you are welcome to email me, but please do not tell others how to behave.
Thanks.
Toyota uses options to really overprice its vehicles. Its dealerships rate very poorly. Being in TX you have to deal with Gulf Toyota (distributor) adding overpriced add ons. Its possible to get Accord for close to invoice. Toyota sells for $1+k over invoice.
Toyota never has made cars for pure sports enthusiast and Honda atleast leans in that directions.
(alookman): You can get a camry for invoice or lower, just like an Accord. The difference now is the camry offers a $750 rebate.
I am sick of FWD cars, including the Acura RL, TL, and Lexus ES330, which does not want to do turns, besides the 2 seconds hesitation problem with the E throttle....
RWD cars are FUN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Camry's styling is OTH very agressive but cute and cool. It's peppy, smooth, quiet, solid... very close to the lexus LS430. After a few years, the Accord's seat fabrics and the plastic interiors would start to fade, cracked, flaked and peeled, but not the Camry.
I have a Camry LE I4 that was parked outdoors for 16 years. The paint faded in spots but the seats and the plastic interiors are 100% intact. It's also in great shape with 250K miles with original engine and AT. Everything works fine in it. It cruises safely and comfortably at 90MPH. It's stable at high speeed even with original struts. I cannot ask for much more in a car.
I was thinking of replacing engine and xmission mounts to make it smoother. The guys at the body shop told me they see a lot of Camry I4 with 400-500K miles still running strong, as owners still spend money fixing dents on them.
My friend has a 10 years old Nissan Maxima whose seats and plastic interiors are all cracked and broken, including door panels and handles.It also has a bunch of other problems with the engine and transmission.
The people who enjoy the Accord's rough ride and cheap interiors must be used to riding oxcarts in China...with genuine leather seats hehehehe
The dashboard of the Camry looked dated even in 2002 and is only slightly better for 2005.
The Mazda 6, Altima and Passat have better styling than either a Camry or Accord. What competing 2005 sedan DOESN'T have better exterior styling than a 2005 Camry or Accord? Only thing close is the new Galant.
Exterior styling are the worst attributes of BOTH the Camry and Accord.
Seems like they were in a contest to see who could out-ugly the other and there is no "winner."
These are cars you buy for reliability and reputation and try to close your eyes to the appearance. If it wasn't for the quality reputation of Camrys and Accords that allow people to look past the styling, I think these would have both been sales disasters on the scale of the Pontiac Aztek.
It is a waste of time trying to debate which is the worst-styled of these two.
When I was shopping for an '04 car, the Accord EX-L sedan (black leather) had the classiest interior of any mid-sized car I tested, so that's the car I bought. No regrets.....Richard
Can you direct us to the posts where a 7th gen Accord owner complained of a misaligned dashboard?
Both the Camry and the Ford Taurus have been among the top-selling cars, but many were to rental car companies and other fleet buyers. I don't think Hondas are in many, if any, rental car fleets.
Maybe Honda doesn't want to demean its image by offering fleet pricing which could depress resale value when large numbers of late-model cars are offered for sale by rental companies.
Car choice by purchasing decision rather than volume would seem to be more relevant to any discussion about which cars sell more.....Richard
Beauty and ugliness are hard to describe. You know it when you see it. If there are no such general agreements on beauty and ugliness, how come there are super models who make millions every years with their beauty, and there are plain Janes who can never get a date? Scientists have studied criteria that appeal to most people as beauty. These criteria are defined as proportionality, symmetry, balance...
I happened to know a few males/females in their late teens, early twenties who like the Camry's stylings over the Accord's. Here are some of their observations:
The Camry's front end looks young, aggressive, alert, happy, healthy, wholesome, cool, cute....
The Accord's front end, with its sharply triangular head lights and curved hood, looks old, plain, tired, droopy, sick, sad, sorry, nasty...
The younger people I know are definitely excited by the Camry's styling, but are turned off by the Accord's. There is no neutral ground.
Personally, I would prefer driving the Accord, since I drive cars very hard, but the rest of the family dislikes the Accord's cramped and hard seats, and the rough ride.
The Camry's quiet and smooth ride makes a big difference in wear and tear on the bodies and minds of the occupants, especially on long trips.
We also need to give up on the arguments about "beauty". We can go around on this until the end of time - the reality is that we are all entitled to our opinions, and views/feelings/ beliefs, etc. about appearance ARE opinions.
It's time for us to accept the fact that we have different opinions on the styling of these vehicles and stop fighting about it. Not one single one of you is going to convince another that your view of appearance is "correct" nor are any of you going to accept someone else's argument that your view is incorrect. Think about it. We're just butting heads for the sake of butting heads and that needs to stop.
Now let's move on.
Thanks.
I am giving feedbacks to cars' styling dept.
Please don't delete my philosophical musings on beauty and stylings of cars!
A comment on price: I found that it depend on time, region and sometimes dealership. From my most recent shopping experience, Accord was more ready to go under invoice than Camry (with Camry's rebate factored in). The invoice price is also generally lower on Accord for the similarly equiped models (Accord has now all air bags standard). The price comparison was based on direct internet (or fleet) department quotes on V6 model. These days, the lowest three quotes from internet sales departments are usually pretty close (within a few hundred dollars of each other), so I believe the price comparison is valid.
I've bought several Camrys in the past, and have been paying around invoice. BTW, it is not to say that Honda dealers are more willing to discount than Toyota in general. It has a lot to do with models, volume and demand.
To be exact, there are 3.3 posts in the Accords' Problems and Solutions forum for each in the Camry.
A number of possibilities exist:
1. Accord has more than 3x problems than Camry.
2. Accord's problems are more complex and difficult, requiring 3x amount of posts.
3. Accords' owners are wordy, mouthy, lengthy...requiring 3x the amount of posts to get ideas through.
4. Camry's owners are strong, silent types, preferring not post about their cars' problems.
5. Wives of Camry's owners' discourage posting about cars and forbid visit to Edmunds.com.
etc .......
Car magazines' writers don't have to buy, pay for, own, repair and live with their test cars for years.
Consumers do!
Can you produce any evidence to dispute these statistics from the IIHS?
One of the auto magazines--maybe "Motor Trend" or "Car & Driver"--tested cars for speed and stability with and without spoilers. The bottom line was that there was no benefit except that one of the tested cars, a Porsche, was either slightly faster and/or more stable, but only at speeds over 125 MPH. I have no plans to drive that fast.
So the only value of spoilers is their look which in my view is well named--they spoil the look of the car. Also, to the extent that a spoiler might interfere with rear visibility, it's a safety hazard as well.
I respect the opinions of those who think spoilers look good--I see them stuck on just about every kind of car and I hope their owners are happy, but I've never seen any car that I thought was improved by a useless bar bolted to its trunk lid.......Richard
IMO, Honda buyers are more vocal, and probably expect more from their cars, and that could be the reason that there are more posts in the Problems and Solutions forum. To prove my point, I am sure that the total number of forums and posts will be much more for Accord, than Camry, not just the problems boards.
Again, you say that Accord owners are wordy, mouthy and lengthy, requiring 3 times the posts to get their message through, implying we are idiots. I don't see why Pat hasn't removed this posting, since it is clearly a personal attack.
Do you have any statistics to prove this statement? Rental car companies have a lot more Tauruses than Camrys, by your logic, are you saying that a Taurus is more reliable than a Camry? Similarly, I havent nearly as many Corollas as I have seen Cavaliers at rental car companies, does that mean Corollas are not reliable?
Anyway, we would all be glad if you could point us to a source upon which you base your opinion.
You are aware that car magazines DO buy long term test cars? Anyway, based on your logic, should we disregard the media views of cars? The reason car mags was brought into the discussion was because one of the posters said that some publication data shows Camry is better than Accord, so we responded with data from other car mags.
Please refer to any ONE professional review that calls the Accords seats hard, and cramped. If you want to go by your own feel, please also look at the official interior space, legroom etc figures.
FYI, many professional testers have reviewed that the Camry's rear seat cushion is shorter then the previous model, which give more leg room, but lesset thigh room.
Having said all of this, I have been saying from the beginning that the Camry rides smoother and is more isolated, where as the Accord has a stiffer, sportier ride. The folks who buy these cars have the same choice to make and buy what ever they prefer.
The Accord's front end, with its sharply triangular head lights and curved hood, looks old, plain, tired, droopy, sick, sad, sorry, nasty... "
I don't know by which stretch of imagination you can rake up all the foul words describing the shape of the Accord and then go on to wax eloquent about the Camrys shape. Your post is based on anecdotes that support your theory and I can fill pages upon pages of this forum with anecdotes about the Camrys vanilla exterior, but anecdotes really don't mean much, do they?
~alpha
So some of you think a Camry feels like a Lexus. I can tell you from experience that there is a significant difference between an ES330 and a Camry let alone anything above the ES330. If you wanted a "Lexus-feel" you shoulda bought a real Lexus.
I happen to love the way my Accord looks. I love the way it drives even more. I love the manual transmission with the leather, dual-zone climate control, sunroof, XM radio, and heated seats. I didn't buy it expecting it to feel like a Lexus nor did I want it to.
Also, you do not see Accord's on rental lots because Honda as a manufacturer will not sell them directly to fleets. Any rental company who wants Accords must buy them from a Honda dealer like any other person would do. Toyota deals directly with fleets to the tune of about 10% per year. Honda keeps it's fleet sales to less than 2%. That also explains a bit of the Camry's sales advantage over the Accord.
The Camry and Accord are both excellent vehicles that cater to similar buyers with different preferences. Choose the Camry if ride ride, isolation, and restraint are paramount, and choose the Accord if involvement, and precision are your choice. As of 2005, when equipped similarly, the vehicles have MSRPs that closely approximate each other, so the choice really comes down to preference.
To me, the major differences lie in the fact that the Accord makes available an outstanding Hybrid model, while the Camry offers the availability of what has been called the greatest safety advance since seatbelts- electronic stability control.
Both offer outstanding efficiency and safety (when Camry is equipped with side and side curtain airbags). For the base models, Honda should be wholly commended on making side and side curtain airbags standard, and Toyota would do well to follow the lead.
~alpha
I agree with your post Alpha just can't help but to post a response in the peterpan style.
U
G
L
Y
They need to do something about that!!! Like the Camry, the Accord is a nice car that has one ugly butt. The booty has got to go!
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/editorial/imho/index.cfm/act/o- pinion23
Note however, 05 Accord changed the color of part of its tail lights, making them nearly all red instead of red and clear. On darker color cars, this improved rear appearance quite a bit, in my opinion. The downward curve of the lights is not that obvious now. The rumor is that there will be further changes next year. It seems that Honda is aware of people's perception on this. Of course, not everyone thinks it has "ugly butt" to begin with, but it seems to get to a point that it's swaying some people's purchasing decision.
Obviously, there is no way that the people who post on Edmunds represent any statistically correct percentage of owners; that's your biggest problem. And for you to rely on discussion titles makes it clear that you are clueless on the history of these boards. There are zillions of Camry and Accord posts in many, many discussions in our archives that contain negative and positive comments; the standardization and specialization of discussion names is very, very recent.
It's not even worth getting into with you - your premise is ridiculous and if you don't know that, you know it now. Leave it be.
Post no further about this - if you have something else to say, email me.
"These moderators" do not "close down" discussions for no reason. There is an automatic archiving policy in place on these boards which means that when a discussion has had no activity for some amount of time, it essentially closes itself and moves into the archives.
Any discussion can be reopened by request; that is never a problem - just ask!
Now, there are times when a discussion is administratively closed by the host for various reasons, the most common of which is if a discussion has gotten so off-track and argumentative it is no longer providing any value.
See my next post ...
You have a troll amongst you. Your mama did teach you not to feed the trolls, right?
When you let someone pull your chain and push you over the edge of civility, the chain-puller just won. Is that really what you want? I don't think so.
I need for those of you who want this discussion to remain open to continue to contribute in a non-inflammatory and sensible way. Above all, you need to stop responding to the instigators and about their posts. Ignore, ignore, ignore. If you are unable to ignore, email me, but do not respond.
If the instigators and responders continue to overtake this discussion, I'm going to have to shut it down. It's just a matter of logistics.
Two things here - one, these boards are not monitored in real time. I saw the post to which you refer at the same time I saw your post complaining that I hadn't removed it. For future reference, if you feel the need to call my attention to a post, you should email me. Posting about it is useless because I will see your post the same time I see the problem message. Emailing me will at least guarantee that I get to your problem when I first get into the Forums rather than find it when I happen to run into it on my usual rounds.
Point two: You are responding to a classic "troll" post. The message is not a "personal attack" because it was not directed at any specific Forums member, only to a broad group of people that includes some Forums members, but no one is identified specifically. That is the hallmark of a troll. He stays right inside the lines but manages to anger others to the point where they cross the line.
Don't be a sucker - don't feed the trolls. These are words to live by, trust me.
I am not going to discuss any of this disruption any further here. I will be happy to discuss any aspect of it in email, so please feel free to contact me that way if you have things to say or questions to ask.
If anyone posts any further about any of these issues, the message will be removed.
On the other hand, any posts that strive to get us back on track will be most welcome and I will be very grateful to see them.
Thanks, I really appreciate your understanding and your cooperation.
Pat